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Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

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  • Daniel Jeanson
    Makes you lighter and skate faster. From: Chris Wolter Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 14:07 To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re:
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
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      Makes you lighter and skate faster.

      Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 14:07
      Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

       

      dan, would you reiterate what increasing the number of shits actually does?
      chris

      From: Daniel Jeanson <daniel_jeanson@...>
      To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
       
      In this league of yours I don't think the issue is a cap on games played, 125% is quite generous and doesn't cause any issues. By imposing strict limits on # of shifts or even number of dressed players makes it difficult to maintain a roster and especially for possible trades. It is difficult to trade away some players, especially players of different positions since you have to worry about maintaining your shifts. I have found from experience that increasing the number of shits, even dramatically, often does not increase your player's ice-time. I have Chara on my team and I have often tried to increase his shifts but without any real big increase in ice-time. If there is any change I don't think it makes much of a difference on how your team performs. Having the maximum games makes the biggest difference, not shift times or even the amount of dressed players. I'm sure it would be a lot easier on league management if all they had to worry was overuse on games played and not by micromanaging shifts and dressed players.

      Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:26
      Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

       
      Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

      We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

      --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
      >
      > Last season, the team in second last
      signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
      >
      >
      >
      > Our draft
      lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
      >
      >
      >
      > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one
      team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
      >
      >
      >
      > Herb
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
      > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
      PM
      > To:
      target=_blank ymailto="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
      >
      Cc: Bill Corfield
      > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
      over/under usage (minutes)
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      One word: lottery.
      > Those that like to dump games to make their team
      better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
      > I've had to call it out as a commish,
      and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
      >
      > d
      >
      > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
      Corfield wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > Brad-
      >
      >
      >
      > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
      commissioner of the LHL.
      >
      > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
      we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
      >
      > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
      we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
      >
      > We recently ran into an
      issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
      >
      > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
      professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
      >
      >
      >
      > The
      league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
      >
      >
      >
      > That situation aside, I've always
      felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
      >
      > Whatever is decided upon, I would
      just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
      >
      >
      >
      >
      Cheers,
      >
      > Bill Corfield
      >
      >
      >
      >
      -----Original Message-----
      > From: bradutterstrom
      > To: hockeydisk
      mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
      > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
      player over/under usage (minutes)
      >
      >
      >
      > Just wanted
      to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
      >
      > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
      apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
      >
      > How have other
      leagues handled this issue?
      >

    • Dave Bole
      roflmao From: Daniel Jeanson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:25 PM To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
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        roflmao
         
        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:25 PM
        Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
         
         

        Makes you lighter and skate faster.
         
        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 14:07
        Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
         
         

        dan, would you reiterate what increasing the number of shits actually does?
        chris
         
        From: Daniel Jeanson <daniel_jeanson@...>
        To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:01 PM
        Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
         
        In this league of yours I don't think the issue is a cap on games played, 125% is quite generous and doesn't cause any issues. By imposing strict limits on # of shifts or even number of dressed players makes it difficult to maintain a roster and especially for possible trades. It is difficult to trade away some players, especially players of different positions since you have to worry about maintaining your shifts. I have found from experience that increasing the number of shits, even dramatically, often does not increase your player's ice-time. I have Chara on my team and I have often tried to increase his shifts but without any real big increase in ice-time. If there is any change I don't think it makes much of a difference on how your team performs. Having the maximum games makes the biggest difference, not shift times or even the amount of dressed players. I'm sure it would be a lot easier on league management if all they had to worry was overuse on games played and not by micromanaging shifts and dressed players.
         
        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:26
        Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
         
         
        Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

        We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

        --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
        >
        > Last season, the team in second last
        signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
        >
        >
        >
        > Our draft
        lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
        >
        >
        >
        > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one
        team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
        >
        >
        >
        > Herb
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
        > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
        PM
        > To:
        target=_blank ymailto="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
        >
        Cc: Bill Corfield
        > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
        over/under usage (minutes)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        One word: lottery.
        > Those that like to dump games to make their team
        better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
        > I've had to call it out as a commish,
        and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
        >
        > d
        >
        > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
        Corfield wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Brad-
        >
        >
        >
        > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
        commissioner of the LHL.
        >
        > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
        we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
        >
        > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
        we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
        >
        > We recently ran into an
        issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
        >
        > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
        professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
        >
        >
        >
        > The
        league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
        >
        >
        >
        > That situation aside, I've always
        felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
        >
        > Whatever is decided upon, I would
        just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
        >
        >
        >
        >
        Cheers,
        >
        > Bill Corfield
        >
        >
        >
        >
        -----Original Message-----
        > From: bradutterstrom
        > To: hockeydisk
        mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
        >
        Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
        > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
        player over/under usage (minutes)
        >
        >
        >
        > Just wanted
        to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
        >
        > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
        apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
        >
        > How have other
        leagues handled this issue?
        >

      • Chris Wolter
        classic From: Daniel Jeanson To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [hockeydisk]
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
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          classic

          From: Daniel Jeanson <daniel_jeanson@...>
          To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:25 PM
          Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
           
          Makes you lighter and skate faster.

          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 14:07
          Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

           
          dan, would you reiterate what increasing the number of shits actually does?
          chris

          From: Daniel Jeanson <daniel_jeanson@...>
          To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:01 PM
          Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
           
          In this league of yours I don't think the issue is a cap on games played, 125% is quite generous and doesn't cause any issues. By imposing strict limits on # of shifts or even number of dressed players makes it difficult to maintain a roster and especially for possible trades. It is difficult to trade away some players, especially players of different positions since you have to worry about maintaining your shifts. I have found from experience that increasing the number of shits, even dramatically, often does not increase your player's ice-time. I have Chara on my team and I have often tried to increase his shifts but without any real big increase in ice-time. If there is any change I don't think it makes much of a difference on how your team performs. Having the maximum games makes the biggest difference, not shift times or even the amount of dressed players. I'm sure it would be a lot easier on league management if all they had to worry was overuse on games played and not by micromanaging shifts and dressed players.

          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:26
          Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

           
          Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line? We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity. --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote: > > Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery. > > > > Our draft lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round. > > > > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team. > > > > Herb > > > > > > From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com > Cc: Bill Corfield > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes) > > > > > > One word: lottery. > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances. > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun. > > d > > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote: > > > > Brad- > > > > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL. > > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem. > > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals. > > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team." > > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on. > > > > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future > > > > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues. > > Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly... > > > > Cheers, > > Bill Corfield > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: bradutterstrom > To: hockeydisk mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes) > > > > Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions. > > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.) > > How have other leagues handled this issue? >
        • Joe DeAngelis
          Translation: You did something that was explicitly against the rules, and therefore which no other owner was allowed to do.  Correction me if I m wrong, but
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
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            Translation: You did something that was explicitly against the rules, and therefore which no other owner was allowed to do. 

            Correction me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the very definition of cheating?

            I am in the league in which this went down, and I, as one among many, was not fond of your attempts to break the rules and gain an unfair advantage on the rest of the league.

            I'm not a fan of getting involved in weird, public spats like this, to be honest.  But screw it.  Dave, so long as you're looking to use this venue to take unwarranted potshots at people with no provocation whatsoever, I think it's important and appropriate the audience you seek get a third-person perspective on the situation.  Here it is:

            YOU CHEATED.

            YOU GOT CAUGHT.

            GET OVER IT.

            You got pissed off at the guy who caught you and this is you stamping your feet and holding your breath in a venue in which that sort of behavior is pathetic and inappropriate.

            Grow up, dude.

            Joe DeAngelis


            From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
            To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:58 AM
            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)



            I DIDN’T ADD POSITIONS....I MERELY USED A PLAYER AT LD INSTEAD
            OF RD......for vicea versa....been winning your leagues BILL....d’oh.,..of
            course you have
             
            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:53 PM
            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
             
             
            Tell the whole story Dave...

            We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which point we removed you.

            I don't need people who willfully ignore our rules or try to abuse them.

            Bill Corfield


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
            To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm
            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

             
            I played a player out of position
             
            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
             
             
            I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

            If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

            Bill Corfield


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
            To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

             
            all of your championships should feel cheesy
            davebole
             
             
            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
             
             
            I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

            It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
             
            Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
             
            Bill Corfield


            -----Original Message-----
            From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
            To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
            Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

             
            Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

            We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

            --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
            >
            > Last season, the team in second last
            signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
            >
            >
            >
            > Our draft
            lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
            >
            >
            >
            > As far as usage, we donât have any rules about shifts. We have one
            team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
            >
            >
            >
            > Herb
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
            > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
            PM
            > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
            >
            Cc: Bill Corfield
            > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
            over/under usage (minutes)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            One word: lottery.
            > Those that like to dump games to make their team
            better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
            > I've had to call it out as a commish,
            and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
            >
            > d
            >
            > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
            Corfield wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Brad-
            >
            >
            >
            > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
            commissioner of the LHL.
            >
            > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
            we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
            >
            > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
            we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
            >
            > We recently ran into an
            issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
            >
            > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
            professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
            >
            >
            >
            > The
            league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
            >
            >
            >
            > That situation aside, I've always
            felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
            >
            > Whatever is decided upon, I would
            just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
            >
            >
            >
            >
            Cheers,
            >
            > Bill Corfield
            >
            >
            >
            >
            -----Original Message-----
            > From: bradutterstrom
            > To: hockeydisk
            mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
            >
            Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
            > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
            player over/under usage (minutes)
            >
            >
            >
            > Just wanted
            to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
            >
            > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
            apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
            >
            > How have other
            leagues handled this issue?
            >





          • Dave Bole
            you must be the sargent at arms for Bill....ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From: Joe DeAngelis Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:33 PM To:
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              you must be the sargent at arms for Bill....ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
               
               
               
              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:33 PM
              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
               
               


              Translation: You did something that was explicitly against the rules, and therefore which no other owner was allowed to do. 
               
              Correction me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the very definition of cheating?
               
              I am in the league in which this went down, and I, as one among many, was not fond of your attempts to break the rules and gain an unfair advantage on the rest of the league.
               
              I'm not a fan of getting involved in weird, public spats like this, to be honest.  But screw it.  Dave, so long as you're looking to use this venue to take unwarranted potshots at people with no provocation whatsoever, I think it's important and appropriate the audience you seek get a third-person perspective on the situation.  Here it is:
               
              YOU CHEATED.
               
              YOU GOT CAUGHT.

              GET OVER IT.
               
              You got pissed off at the guy who caught you and this is you stamping your feet and holding your breath in a venue in which that sort of behavior is pathetic and inappropriate.
               
              Grow up, dude.
               
              Joe DeAngelis
               

              From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
              To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:58 AM
              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
               


              I DIDN’T ADD POSITIONS....I MERELY USED A PLAYER AT LD INSTEAD
              OF RD......for vicea versa....been winning your leagues BILL....d’oh.,..of
              course you have
               
              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
               
               
              Tell the whole story Dave...

              We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which point we removed you.

              I don't need people who willfully ignore our rules or try to abuse them.

              Bill Corfield


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
              To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm
              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

               
              I played a player out of position
               
              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
               
               
              I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

              If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

              Bill Corfield


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
              To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

               
              all of your championships should feel cheesy
              davebole
               
               
              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
               
               
              I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

              It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
               
              Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
               
              Bill Corfield


              -----Original Message-----
              From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
              To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
              Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

               
              Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

              We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

              --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
              >
              > Last season, the team in second last
              signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
              >
              >
              >
              > Our draft
              lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
              >
              >
              >
              > As far as usage, we donât have any rules about shifts. We have one team
              that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
              >
              >
              >
              > Herb
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From:
              href="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
              > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
              PM
              > To:
              target=_blank ymailto="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
              >
              Cc: Bill Corfield
              > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
              over/under usage (minutes)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              One word: lottery.
              > Those that like to dump games to make their team
              better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
              > I've had to call it out as a commish,
              and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
              >
              > d
              >
              > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
              Corfield wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Brad-
              >
              >
              >
              > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
              commissioner of the LHL.
              >
              > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
              we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
              >
              > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
              we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
              >
              > We recently ran into an
              issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
              >
              > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
              professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
              >
              >
              >
              > The
              league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
              >
              >
              >
              > That situation aside, I've always
              felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
              >
              > Whatever is decided upon, I would
              just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
              >
              >
              >
              >
              Cheers,
              >
              > Bill Corfield
              >
              >
              >
              >
              -----Original Message-----
              > From: bradutterstrom
              > To: hockeydisk
              mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
              >
              Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
              > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
              player over/under usage (minutes)
              >
              >
              >
              > Just wanted
              to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
              >
              > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
              apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
              >
              > How have other
              leagues handled this issue?
              >





            • D. Atkinson
              At this point, I m going to ask all to cool the flame war. I leave it all with this thought: It is up to the commissioner and league members of a league to
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                At this point, I'm going to ask all to cool the flame war.
                I leave it all with this thought:

                It is up to the commissioner and league members of a league to decide what behavior is acceptable for their league.
                If a league's members and leadership deem that behavior is "not conducive to the league's interests", they should not hesitate to toss someone from their league.  If it is a long time, valued league member with the transgression, work through it, or change the league rules (I've had to do that as a commish). If you were the one pushing the limits and were called out by the league, deal with it. Odds are very high that you were doing something borderline ethical, or at the least, not in the spirit of sportsmanship. If one must win at all costs, there are lots of other online activities where one can massage one's ego.....that's the joy of the internet.



                On 2/21/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Bole wrote:
                 

                you must be the sargent at arms for Bill....ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                 
                 
                 
                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:33 PM
                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                 
                 


                Translation: You did something that was explicitly against the rules, and therefore which no other owner was allowed to do. 
                 
                Correction me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the very definition of cheating?
                 
                I am in the league in which this went down, and I, as one among many, was not fond of your attempts to break the rules and gain an unfair advantage on the rest of the league.
                 
                I'm not a fan of getting involved in weird, public spats like this, to be honest.  But screw it.  Dave, so long as you're looking to use this venue to take unwarranted potshots at people with no provocation whatsoever, I think it's important and appropriate the audience you seek get a third-person perspective on the situation.  Here it is:
                 
                YOU CHEATED.
                 
                YOU GOT CAUGHT.

                GET OVER IT.
                 
                You got pissed off at the guy who caught you and this is you stamping your feet and holding your breath in a venue in which that sort of behavior is pathetic and inappropriate.
                 
                Grow up, dude.
                 
                Joe DeAngelis
                 

                From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:58 AM
                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                 


                I DIDN’T ADD POSITIONS....I MERELY USED A PLAYER AT LD INSTEAD
                OF RD......for vicea versa....been winning your leagues BILL....d’oh.,..of
                course you have
                 
                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:53 PM
                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                 
                 
                Tell the whole story Dave...

                We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which point we removed you.

                I don't need people who willfully ignore our rules or try to abuse them.

                Bill Corfield


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm
                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                 
                I played a player out of position
                 
                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                 
                 
                I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                Bill Corfield


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                 
                all of your championships should feel cheesy
                davebole
                 
                 
                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                 
                 
                I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                 
                Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                 
                Bill Corfield


                -----Original Message-----
                From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                 
                Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                >
                > Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                >
                >
                >
                > Our draft lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                >
                >
                >
                > As far as usage, we donât have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                >
                >
                >
                > Herb
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM
                > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                > Cc: Bill Corfield
                > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > One word: lottery.
                > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                >
                > d
                >
                > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Brad-
                >
                >
                >
                > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL.
                >
                > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                >
                > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                >
                > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                >
                > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                >
                >
                >
                > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                >
                >
                >
                > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk o

                (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
              • Dave Bole
                roger that Dave From: D. Atkinson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:30 PM To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  roger that Dave
                   
                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:30 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                   
                   

                  At this point, I'm going to ask all to cool the flame war.
                  I leave it all with this thought:

                  It is up to the commissioner and league members of a league to decide what behavior is acceptable for their league.
                  If a league's members and leadership deem that behavior is "not conducive to the league's interests", they should not hesitate to toss someone from their league.  If it is a long time, valued league member with the transgression, work through it, or change the league rules (I've had to do that as a commish). If you were the one pushing the limits and were called out by the league, deal with it. Odds are very high that you were doing something borderline ethical, or at the least, not in the spirit of sportsmanship. If one must win at all costs, there are lots of other online activities where one can massage one's ego.....that's the joy of the internet.



                  On 2/21/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Bole wrote:
                   
                  you must be the sargent at arms for Bill....ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                   
                   
                   
                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:33 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                   
                   

                  Translation: You did something that was explicitly against the rules, and therefore which no other owner was allowed to do. 
                   
                  Correction me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the very definition of cheating?
                   
                  I am in the league in which this went down, and I, as one among many, was not fond of your attempts to break the rules and gain an unfair advantage on the rest of the league.
                   
                  I'm not a fan of getting involved in weird, public spats like this, to be honest.  But screw it.  Dave, so long as you're looking to use this venue to take unwarranted potshots at people with no provocation whatsoever, I think it's important and appropriate the audience you seek get a third-person perspective on the situation.  Here it is:
                   
                  YOU CHEATED.
                   
                  YOU GOT CAUGHT.

                  GET OVER IT.
                   
                  You got pissed off at the guy who caught you and this is you stamping your feet and holding your breath in a venue in which that sort of behavior is pathetic and inappropriate.
                   
                  Grow up, dude.
                   
                  Joe DeAngelis
                   

                  From: Dave Bole mailto:pensnr1fan@...
                  To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:58 AM
                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                   


                  I DIDN’T ADD POSITIONS....I MERELY USED A PLAYER AT LD INSTEAD
                  OF RD......for vicea versa....been winning your leagues BILL....d’oh.,..of
                  course you have
                   
                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                   
                   
                  Tell the whole story Dave...

                  We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which point we removed you.

                  I don't need people who willfully ignore our rules or try to abuse them.

                  Bill Corfield


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dave Bole mailto:pensnr1fan@...
                  To: hockeydisk mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm
                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                   
                  I played a player out of position
                   
                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                   
                   
                  I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                  If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                  Bill Corfield


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                  To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                   
                  all of your championships should feel cheesy
                  davebole
                   
                   
                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                   
                   
                  I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                  It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                   
                  Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                   
                  Bill Corfield


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                  To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                  Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                   
                  Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                  We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                  --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                  >
                  > Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Our draft lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > As far as usage, we donât have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Herb
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                  > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM
                  > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                  > Cc: Bill Corfield
                  > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > One word: lottery.
                  > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                  > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                  >
                  > d
                  >
                  > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Brad-
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL.
                  >
                  > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                  >
                  > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                  >
                  > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                  >
                  > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                  >
                  > Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Bill Corfield
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: bradutterstrom
                  > To: hockeydisk mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                  > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                  >
                  > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                  >
                  > How have other leagues handled this issue?
                  >






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