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Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

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  • Bill Corfield
    Brad- I m the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL. The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don t regulate how much a team
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 20, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Brad-

      I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL. 

      The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem. 

      In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals. 

      We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team." 

      Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on. 

      The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future

      That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues. 

      Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...

      Cheers, 

      Bill Corfield


      -----Original Message-----
      From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
      To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
      Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

       
      Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.

      What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)

      How have other leagues handled this issue?

    • D. Atkinson
      One word: lottery. Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 20, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        One word: lottery.
        Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
        I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.

                  d

        On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
         

        Brad-


        I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL. 

        The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem. 

        In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals. 

        We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team." 

        Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on. 

        The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future

        That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues. 

        Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...

        Cheers, 

        Bill Corfield


        -----Original Message-----
        From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
        To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
        Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

         
        Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.

        What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)

        How have other leagues handled this issue?


      • Bill Corfield
        Dave- That s the funny part of what happened...The team in question was in 3rd place...We do have a draft lottery for the bottom six teams, but at the point
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 20, 2013
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          Dave-

           That's the funny part of what happened...The team in question was in 3rd place...We do have a draft lottery for the bottom six teams, but at the point the team in question started tanking, I don't think he was going to drop that low...I could see that team dropping from 3rd to perhaps 12/13, but not much worse...

          Yes, the guy thought he saw an opening in our rules and tried to exploit it. 

          Like I said, it didn't go over very well...

          Bill Corfield


          -----Original Message-----
          From: D. Atkinson <boomhound@...>
          To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: Bill Corfield <corfieldb@...>
          Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 9:08 pm
          Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

          One word: lottery.
          Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
          I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.

                    d

          On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
           
          Brad-

          I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL. 

          The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem. 

          In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals. 

          We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team." 

          Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on. 

          The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future

          That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues. 

          Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...

          Cheers, 

          Bill Corfield


          -----Original Message-----
          From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
          To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
          Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

           
          Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.

          What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)

          How have other leagues handled this issue?


        • Herb Garbutt
          Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 20, 2013
          • 0 Attachment

            Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.

             

            Our draft lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.

             

            As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.

             

            Herb

             

             

            From: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
            Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM
            To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: Bill Corfield
            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

             

             

            One word: lottery.
            Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
            I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.

                      d

            On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:

             

            Brad-

             

            I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL. 

            The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem. 

            In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals. 

            We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team." 

            Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on. 

             

            The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future

             

            That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues. 

            Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...

             

            Cheers, 

            Bill Corfield

             

            -----Original Message-----
            From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
            To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
            Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

             

            Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.

            What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)

            How have other leagues handled this issue?

             

          • bradutterstrom
            Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it s not tanking that s the issue at all, it s the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

              We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.



              --- In hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" <herbgarbutt@...> wrote:
              >
              > Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
              >
              >
              >
              > Our draft lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
              >
              >
              >
              > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
              >
              >
              >
              > Herb
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
              > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM
              > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
              > Cc: Bill Corfield
              > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > One word: lottery.
              > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
              > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
              >
              > d
              >
              > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Brad-
              >
              >
              >
              > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL.
              >
              > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
              >
              > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
              >
              > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
              >
              > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
              >
              >
              >
              > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
              >
              >
              >
              > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
              >
              > Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
              >
              >
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Bill Corfield
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: bradutterstrom <mailto:apbaahl@...> <apbaahl@...>
              > To: hockeydisk <mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com> <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
              > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
              >
              >
              >
              > Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
              >
              > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
              >
              > How have other leagues handled this issue?
              >
            • Bill Corfield
              I ve been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I m proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...

                Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...

                Bill Corfield


                -----Original Message-----
                From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                 
                Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                --- In hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                >
                > Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                >
                >
                >
                > Our draft lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                >
                >
                >
                > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                >
                >
                >
                > Herb
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM
                > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                > Cc: Bill Corfield
                > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > One word: lottery.
                > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                >
                > d
                >
                > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Brad-
                >
                >
                >
                > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL.
                >
                > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                >
                > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                >
                > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                >
                > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                >
                >
                >
                > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                >
                >
                >
                > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                >
                > Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                >
                >
                >
                > Cheers,
                >
                > Bill Corfield
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: bradutterstrom
                > To: hockeydisk hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com> hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                >
                >
                >
                > Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                >
                > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                >
                > How have other leagues handled this issue?
                >

              • asrjabkz
                Rather than tracking player usage by games played, simply use minutes played.
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Rather than tracking player usage by games played, simply use minutes played.

                  --- In hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com, "D. Atkinson" <boomhound@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > One word: lottery.
                  > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out
                  > from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top
                  > 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time,
                  > but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen
                  > blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long
                  > if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                  > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member
                  > once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have
                  > some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                  >
                  > d
                  >
                  > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Brad-
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of
                  > > the LHL.
                  > >
                  > > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a
                  > > team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its
                  > > a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                  > >
                  > > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate
                  > > shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who
                  > > get 125% of NHL actuals.
                  > >
                  > > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league
                  > > brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed,
                  > > asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going
                  > > to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup
                  > > back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried
                  > > to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order
                  > > to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby
                  > > "helping his team."
                  > >
                  > > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional
                  > > manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was
                  > > important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules
                  > > and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the
                  > > league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've
                  > > dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                  > >
                  > > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've
                  > > described in the future
                  > >
                  > > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short
                  > > roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some
                  > > risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased
                  > > injury issues.
                  > >
                  > > Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly
                  > > communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held
                  > > accountable evenly...
                  > >
                  > > Cheers,
                  > >
                  > > Bill Corfield
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                  > > To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                  > > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                  > >
                  > > Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of
                  > > an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very
                  > > strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to
                  > > be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues
                  > > there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have
                  > > discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some
                  > > restrictions.
                  > >
                  > > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should
                  > > GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even
                  > > improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue?
                  > > Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of
                  > > players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines
                  > > (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                  > >
                  > > How have other leagues handled this issue?
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • asrjabkz
                  I was in a league years ago that used mins rather than GP for usage and it worked pretty well. Kept teams from overusing players but also gives you a little
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I was in a league years ago that used mins rather than GP for usage and it worked pretty well. Kept teams from overusing players but also gives you a little flexibility with injured guys, allowing you to prolong their GP by scaling back their mins.

                    --- In hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com, "asrjabkz" <matthew.condon@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Rather than tracking player usage by games played, simply use minutes played.
                    >
                    > --- In hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com, "D. Atkinson" <boomhound@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > One word: lottery.
                    > > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out
                    > > from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top
                    > > 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time,
                    > > but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen
                    > > blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long
                    > > if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                    > > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member
                    > > once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have
                    > > some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                    > >
                    > > d
                    > >
                    > > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Brad-
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of
                    > > > the LHL.
                    > > >
                    > > > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a
                    > > > team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its
                    > > > a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                    > > >
                    > > > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate
                    > > > shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who
                    > > > get 125% of NHL actuals.
                    > > >
                    > > > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league
                    > > > brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed,
                    > > > asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going
                    > > > to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup
                    > > > back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried
                    > > > to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order
                    > > > to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby
                    > > > "helping his team."
                    > > >
                    > > > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional
                    > > > manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was
                    > > > important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules
                    > > > and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the
                    > > > league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've
                    > > > dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                    > > >
                    > > > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've
                    > > > described in the future
                    > > >
                    > > > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short
                    > > > roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some
                    > > > risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased
                    > > > injury issues.
                    > > >
                    > > > Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly
                    > > > communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held
                    > > > accountable evenly...
                    > > >
                    > > > Cheers,
                    > > >
                    > > > Bill Corfield
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@>
                    > > > To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                    > > > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                    > > >
                    > > > Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of
                    > > > an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very
                    > > > strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to
                    > > > be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues
                    > > > there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have
                    > > > discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some
                    > > > restrictions.
                    > > >
                    > > > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should
                    > > > GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even
                    > > > improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue?
                    > > > Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of
                    > > > players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines
                    > > > (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                    > > >
                    > > > How have other leagues handled this issue?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Dave Bole
                    all of your championships should feel cheesy davebole From: Bill Corfield Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re:
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      all of your championships should feel cheesy
                      davebole
                       
                       
                      Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                      Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                       
                       

                      I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                      It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...

                       
                      Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                       
                      Bill Corfield


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                      To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                      Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                       
                      Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                      We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                      --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                      >
                      > Last season, the team in second last
                      signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Our draft
                      lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one
                      team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Herb
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                      > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
                      PM
                      > To:
                      href="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      Cc: Bill Corfield
                      > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                      over/under usage (minutes)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      One word: lottery.
                      > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                      better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                      > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                      and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                      >
                      > d
                      >
                      > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                      Corfield wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Brad-
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                      commissioner of the LHL.
                      >
                      > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                      we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                      >
                      > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                      we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                      >
                      > We recently ran into an
                      issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                      >
                      > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                      professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The
                      league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > That situation aside, I've always
                      felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                      >
                      > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                      just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      Cheers,
                      >
                      > Bill Corfield
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      -----Original Message-----
                      > From: bradutterstrom
                      > To: hockeydisk
                      mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                      >
                      Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                      > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                      player over/under usage (minutes)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Just wanted
                      to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                      >
                      > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                      apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                      >
                      > How have other
                      leagues handled this issue?
                      >

                    • Bill Corfield
                      I d be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you re not in any of my leagues any more... If I was you, I d let sleeping digs lie... Bill Corfield
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                        If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                        Bill Corfield


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                        To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                        Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                         
                        all of your championships should feel cheesy
                        davebole
                         
                         
                        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                        Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                         
                         
                        I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                        It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                         
                        Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                         
                        Bill Corfield


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                        To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                        Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                         
                        Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                        We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                        --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                        >
                        > Last season, the team in second last
                        signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Our draft
                        lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one
                        team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Herb
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                        > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
                        PM
                        > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        Cc: Bill Corfield
                        > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                        over/under usage (minutes)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        One word: lottery.
                        > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                        better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                        > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                        and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                        >
                        > d
                        >
                        > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                        Corfield wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Brad-
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                        commissioner of the LHL.
                        >
                        > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                        we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                        >
                        > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                        we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                        >
                        > We recently ran into an
                        issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                        >
                        > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                        professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The
                        league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > That situation aside, I've always
                        felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                        >
                        > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                        just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        Cheers,
                        >
                        > Bill Corfield
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        -----Original Message-----
                        > From: bradutterstrom
                        > To: hockeydisk
                        mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                        >
                        Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                        > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                        player over/under usage (minutes)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Just wanted
                        to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                        >
                        > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                        apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                        >
                        > How have other
                        leagues handled this issue?
                        >

                      • Dave Bole
                        I played a player out of position From: Bill Corfield Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I played a player out of position
                           
                          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
                          Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                           
                           

                          I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                          If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                          Bill Corfield


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                          To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                          Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                           
                          all of your championships should feel cheesy
                          davebole
                           
                           
                          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                          Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                           
                           
                          I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                          It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                           
                          Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                           
                          Bill Corfield


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                          To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                          Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                           
                          Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                          We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                          --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                          >
                          > Last season, the team in second last
                          signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Our draft
                          lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one
                          team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Herb
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                          > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
                          PM
                          > To:
                          href="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          Cc: Bill Corfield
                          > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                          over/under usage (minutes)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          One word: lottery.
                          > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                          better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                          > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                          and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                          >
                          > d
                          >
                          > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                          Corfield wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Brad-
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                          commissioner of the LHL.
                          >
                          > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                          we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                          >
                          > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                          we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                          >
                          > We recently ran into an
                          issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                          >
                          > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                          professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The
                          league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > That situation aside, I've always
                          felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                          >
                          > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                          just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          Cheers,
                          >
                          > Bill Corfield
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          -----Original Message-----
                          > From: bradutterstrom
                          > To: hockeydisk
                          mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                          >
                          Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                          > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                          player over/under usage (minutes)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Just wanted
                          to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                          >
                          > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                          apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                          >
                          > How have other
                          leagues handled this issue?
                          >

                        • Dave Bole
                          and the one league I quit between seasons.....SO !!!! From: Bill Corfield Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re:
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            and the one league I quit between seasons.....SO !!!!
                             
                            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
                            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                             
                             

                            I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                            If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                            Bill Corfield


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                            To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                             
                            all of your championships should feel cheesy
                            davebole
                             
                             
                            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                             
                             
                            I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                            It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                             
                            Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                             
                            Bill Corfield


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                            To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                            Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                             
                            Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                            We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                            --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                            >
                            > Last season, the team in second last
                            signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Our draft
                            lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one
                            team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Herb
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
                            PM
                            > To:
                            href="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            Cc: Bill Corfield
                            > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                            over/under usage (minutes)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            One word: lottery.
                            > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                            better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                            > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                            and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                            >
                            > d
                            >
                            > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                            Corfield wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Brad-
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                            commissioner of the LHL.
                            >
                            > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                            we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                            >
                            > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                            we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                            >
                            > We recently ran into an
                            issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                            >
                            > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                            professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > The
                            league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > That situation aside, I've always
                            felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                            >
                            > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                            just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            Cheers,
                            >
                            > Bill Corfield
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            -----Original Message-----
                            > From: bradutterstrom
                            > To: hockeydisk
                            mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                            >
                            Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                            > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                            player over/under usage (minutes)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Just wanted
                            to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                            >
                            > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                            apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                            >
                            > How have other
                            leagues handled this issue?
                            >

                          • Bill Corfield
                            Tell the whole story Dave... We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Tell the whole story Dave...

                              We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which point we removed you. 

                              I don't need people who willfully ignore our rules or try to abuse them. 

                              Bill Corfield


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                              To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm
                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                               
                              I played a player out of position
                               
                              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                               
                               
                              I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                              If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                              Bill Corfield


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                              To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                               
                              all of your championships should feel cheesy
                              davebole
                               
                               
                              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                               
                               
                              I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                              It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                               
                              Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                               
                              Bill Corfield


                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                              To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                              Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                               
                              Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                              We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                              --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                              >
                              > Last season, the team in second last
                              signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Our draft
                              lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one
                              team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Herb
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                              > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
                              PM
                              > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              Cc: Bill Corfield
                              > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                              over/under usage (minutes)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              One word: lottery.
                              > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                              better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                              > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                              and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                              >
                              > d
                              >
                              > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                              Corfield wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Brad-
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                              commissioner of the LHL.
                              >
                              > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                              we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                              >
                              > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                              we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                              >
                              > We recently ran into an
                              issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                              >
                              > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                              professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The
                              league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > That situation aside, I've always
                              felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                              >
                              > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                              just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              Cheers,
                              >
                              > Bill Corfield
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              -----Original Message-----
                              > From: bradutterstrom
                              > To: hockeydisk
                              mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                              >
                              Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                              > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                              player over/under usage (minutes)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Just wanted
                              to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                              >
                              > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                              apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                              >
                              > How have other
                              leagues handled this issue?
                              >

                            • Dave Bole
                              I DIDN’T ADD POSITIONS....I MERELY USED A PLAYER AT LD INSTEAD OF RD......for vicea versa....been winning your leagues BILL....d’oh.,..of course you have
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I DIDN’T ADD POSITIONS....I MERELY USED A PLAYER AT LD INSTEAD
                                OF RD......for vicea versa....been winning your leagues BILL....d’oh.,..of
                                course you have
                                 
                                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:53 PM
                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                 
                                 

                                Tell the whole story Dave...

                                We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which point we removed you.

                                I don't need people who willfully ignore our rules or try to abuse them.

                                Bill Corfield


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm
                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                 
                                I played a player out of position
                                 
                                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                 
                                 
                                I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                                If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                                Bill Corfield


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                 
                                all of your championships should feel cheesy
                                davebole
                                 
                                 
                                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                 
                                 
                                I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                                It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                                 
                                Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                                 
                                Bill Corfield


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                                To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                                Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                 
                                Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                                We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                                --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                                >
                                > Last season, the team in second last
                                signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Our draft
                                lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one
                                team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Herb
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                                > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
                                PM
                                > To:
                                href="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                Cc: Bill Corfield
                                > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                                over/under usage (minutes)
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                One word: lottery.
                                > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                                better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                                > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                                and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                                >
                                > d
                                >
                                > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                                Corfield wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Brad-
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                                commissioner of the LHL.
                                >
                                > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                                we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                                >
                                > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                                we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                                >
                                > We recently ran into an
                                issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                                >
                                > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                                professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > The
                                league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > That situation aside, I've always
                                felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                                >
                                > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                                just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                Cheers,
                                >
                                > Bill Corfield
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                -----Original Message-----
                                > From: bradutterstrom
                                > To: hockeydisk
                                mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                >
                                Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                                > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                                player over/under usage (minutes)
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Just wanted
                                to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                                >
                                > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                                apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                                >
                                > How have other
                                leagues handled this issue?
                                >

                              • Daniel Jeanson
                                In this league of yours I don t think the issue is a cap on games played, 125% is quite generous and doesn t cause any issues. By imposing strict limits on #
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In this league of yours I don't think the issue is a cap on games played, 125% is quite generous and doesn't cause any issues. By imposing strict limits on # of shifts or even number of dressed players makes it difficult to maintain a roster and especially for possible trades. It is difficult to trade away some players, especially players of different positions since you have to worry about maintaining your shifts. I have found from experience that increasing the number of shits, even dramatically, often does not increase your player's ice-time. I have Chara on my team and I have often tried to increase his shifts but without any real big increase in ice-time. If there is any change I don't think it makes much of a difference on how your team performs. Having the maximum games makes the biggest difference, not shift times or even the amount of dressed players. I'm sure it would be a lot easier on league management if all they had to worry was overuse on games played and not by micromanaging shifts and dressed players.

                                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:26
                                  Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                   

                                  Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                                  We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                                  --- In hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Last season, the team in second last signed a
                                  bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Our draft lottery, not
                                  only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > As far
                                  as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  Herb
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From:
                                  href="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM
                                  >
                                  To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  Cc: Bill Corfield
                                  > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                                  over/under usage (minutes)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  One word: lottery.
                                  > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                                  better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                                  > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                                  and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                                  >
                                  > d
                                  >
                                  > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                                  Corfield wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Brad-
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                                  commissioner of the LHL.
                                  >
                                  > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                                  we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                                  >
                                  > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                                  we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                                  >
                                  > We recently ran into an
                                  issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                                  >
                                  > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                                  professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The
                                  league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > That situation aside, I've always
                                  felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                                  >
                                  > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                                  just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  Cheers,
                                  >
                                  > Bill Corfield
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: bradutterstrom
                                  > To: hockeydisk
                                  hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com> hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                  >
                                  Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                                  > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                                  player over/under usage (minutes)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Just wanted
                                  to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                                  >
                                  > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                                  apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                                  >
                                  > How have other
                                  leagues handled this issue?
                                  >

                                • Chris Wolter
                                  dan, would you reiterate what increasing the number of shits actually does? chris From: Daniel Jeanson To:
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    dan, would you reiterate what increasing the number of shits actually does?
                                    chris

                                    From: Daniel Jeanson <daniel_jeanson@...>
                                    To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:01 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                     
                                    In this league of yours I don't think the issue is a cap on games played, 125% is quite generous and doesn't cause any issues. By imposing strict limits on # of shifts or even number of dressed players makes it difficult to maintain a roster and especially for possible trades. It is difficult to trade away some players, especially players of different positions since you have to worry about maintaining your shifts. I have found from experience that increasing the number of shits, even dramatically, often does not increase your player's ice-time. I have Chara on my team and I have often tried to increase his shifts but without any real big increase in ice-time. If there is any change I don't think it makes much of a difference on how your team performs. Having the maximum games makes the biggest difference, not shift times or even the amount of dressed players. I'm sure it would be a lot easier on league management if all they had to worry was overuse on games played and not by micromanaging shifts and dressed players.

                                    Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:26
                                    Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                     
                                    Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                                    We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                                    --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Our draft lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Herb
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM
                                    > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                                    > Cc: Bill Corfield
                                    > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > One word: lottery.
                                    > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                                    > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                                    >
                                    > d
                                    >
                                    > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Brad-
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL.
                                    >
                                    > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                                    >
                                    > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                                    >
                                    > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                                    >
                                    > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                                    >
                                    > Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    >
                                    > Bill Corfield
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: bradutterstrom
                                    > To: hockeydisk mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                                    > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                                    >
                                    > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                                    >
                                    > How have other leagues handled this issue?
                                    >

                                  • Daniel Jeanson
                                    Makes you lighter and skate faster. From: Chris Wolter Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 14:07 To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re:
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Makes you lighter and skate faster.

                                      Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 14:07
                                      Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                       

                                      dan, would you reiterate what increasing the number of shits actually does?
                                      chris

                                      From: Daniel Jeanson <daniel_jeanson@...>
                                      To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:01 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                       
                                      In this league of yours I don't think the issue is a cap on games played, 125% is quite generous and doesn't cause any issues. By imposing strict limits on # of shifts or even number of dressed players makes it difficult to maintain a roster and especially for possible trades. It is difficult to trade away some players, especially players of different positions since you have to worry about maintaining your shifts. I have found from experience that increasing the number of shits, even dramatically, often does not increase your player's ice-time. I have Chara on my team and I have often tried to increase his shifts but without any real big increase in ice-time. If there is any change I don't think it makes much of a difference on how your team performs. Having the maximum games makes the biggest difference, not shift times or even the amount of dressed players. I'm sure it would be a lot easier on league management if all they had to worry was overuse on games played and not by micromanaging shifts and dressed players.

                                      Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:26
                                      Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                       
                                      Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                                      We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                                      --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Last season, the team in second last
                                      signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Our draft
                                      lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one
                                      team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Herb
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
                                      PM
                                      > To:
                                      target=_blank ymailto="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      Cc: Bill Corfield
                                      > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                                      over/under usage (minutes)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      One word: lottery.
                                      > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                                      better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                                      > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                                      and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                                      >
                                      > d
                                      >
                                      > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                                      Corfield wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Brad-
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                                      commissioner of the LHL.
                                      >
                                      > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                                      we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                                      >
                                      > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                                      we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                                      >
                                      > We recently ran into an
                                      issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                                      >
                                      > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                                      professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The
                                      league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > That situation aside, I've always
                                      felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                                      >
                                      > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                                      just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Cheers,
                                      >
                                      > Bill Corfield
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: bradutterstrom
                                      > To: hockeydisk
                                      mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      >
                                      Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                                      > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                                      player over/under usage (minutes)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Just wanted
                                      to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                                      >
                                      > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                                      apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                                      >
                                      > How have other
                                      leagues handled this issue?
                                      >

                                    • Dave Bole
                                      roflmao From: Daniel Jeanson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:25 PM To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        roflmao
                                         
                                        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:25 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                         
                                         

                                        Makes you lighter and skate faster.
                                         
                                        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 14:07
                                        Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                         
                                         

                                        dan, would you reiterate what increasing the number of shits actually does?
                                        chris
                                         
                                        From: Daniel Jeanson <daniel_jeanson@...>
                                        To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:01 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                         
                                        In this league of yours I don't think the issue is a cap on games played, 125% is quite generous and doesn't cause any issues. By imposing strict limits on # of shifts or even number of dressed players makes it difficult to maintain a roster and especially for possible trades. It is difficult to trade away some players, especially players of different positions since you have to worry about maintaining your shifts. I have found from experience that increasing the number of shits, even dramatically, often does not increase your player's ice-time. I have Chara on my team and I have often tried to increase his shifts but without any real big increase in ice-time. If there is any change I don't think it makes much of a difference on how your team performs. Having the maximum games makes the biggest difference, not shift times or even the amount of dressed players. I'm sure it would be a lot easier on league management if all they had to worry was overuse on games played and not by micromanaging shifts and dressed players.
                                         
                                        Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:26
                                        Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                         
                                         
                                        Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                                        We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                                        --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Last season, the team in second last
                                        signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Our draft
                                        lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one
                                        team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Herb
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
                                        PM
                                        > To:
                                        target=_blank ymailto="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        Cc: Bill Corfield
                                        > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                                        over/under usage (minutes)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        One word: lottery.
                                        > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                                        better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                                        > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                                        and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                                        >
                                        > d
                                        >
                                        > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                                        Corfield wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Brad-
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                                        commissioner of the LHL.
                                        >
                                        > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                                        we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                                        >
                                        > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                                        we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                                        >
                                        > We recently ran into an
                                        issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                                        >
                                        > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                                        professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > The
                                        league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > That situation aside, I've always
                                        felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                                        >
                                        > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                                        just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Cheers,
                                        >
                                        > Bill Corfield
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: bradutterstrom
                                        > To: hockeydisk
                                        mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        >
                                        Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                                        > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                                        player over/under usage (minutes)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Just wanted
                                        to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                                        >
                                        > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                                        apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                                        >
                                        > How have other
                                        leagues handled this issue?
                                        >

                                      • Chris Wolter
                                        classic From: Daniel Jeanson To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [hockeydisk]
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          classic

                                          From: Daniel Jeanson <daniel_jeanson@...>
                                          To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:25 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                           
                                          Makes you lighter and skate faster.

                                          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 14:07
                                          Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                           
                                          dan, would you reiterate what increasing the number of shits actually does?
                                          chris

                                          From: Daniel Jeanson <daniel_jeanson@...>
                                          To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 12:01 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                           
                                          In this league of yours I don't think the issue is a cap on games played, 125% is quite generous and doesn't cause any issues. By imposing strict limits on # of shifts or even number of dressed players makes it difficult to maintain a roster and especially for possible trades. It is difficult to trade away some players, especially players of different positions since you have to worry about maintaining your shifts. I have found from experience that increasing the number of shits, even dramatically, often does not increase your player's ice-time. I have Chara on my team and I have often tried to increase his shifts but without any real big increase in ice-time. If there is any change I don't think it makes much of a difference on how your team performs. Having the maximum games makes the biggest difference, not shift times or even the amount of dressed players. I'm sure it would be a lot easier on league management if all they had to worry was overuse on games played and not by micromanaging shifts and dressed players.

                                          Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:26
                                          Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                           
                                          Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line? We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity. --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote: > > Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery. > > > > Our draft lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round. > > > > As far as usage, we don’t have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team. > > > > Herb > > > > > > From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com > Cc: Bill Corfield > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes) > > > > > > One word: lottery. > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances. > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun. > > d > > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote: > > > > Brad- > > > > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL. > > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem. > > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals. > > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team." > > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on. > > > > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future > > > > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues. > > Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly... > > > > Cheers, > > Bill Corfield > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: bradutterstrom > To: hockeydisk mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes) > > > > Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions. > > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.) > > How have other leagues handled this issue? >
                                        • Joe DeAngelis
                                          Translation: You did something that was explicitly against the rules, and therefore which no other owner was allowed to do.  Correction me if I m wrong, but
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment

                                            Translation: You did something that was explicitly against the rules, and therefore which no other owner was allowed to do. 

                                            Correction me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the very definition of cheating?

                                            I am in the league in which this went down, and I, as one among many, was not fond of your attempts to break the rules and gain an unfair advantage on the rest of the league.

                                            I'm not a fan of getting involved in weird, public spats like this, to be honest.  But screw it.  Dave, so long as you're looking to use this venue to take unwarranted potshots at people with no provocation whatsoever, I think it's important and appropriate the audience you seek get a third-person perspective on the situation.  Here it is:

                                            YOU CHEATED.

                                            YOU GOT CAUGHT.

                                            GET OVER IT.

                                            You got pissed off at the guy who caught you and this is you stamping your feet and holding your breath in a venue in which that sort of behavior is pathetic and inappropriate.

                                            Grow up, dude.

                                            Joe DeAngelis


                                            From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                            To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:58 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)



                                            I DIDN’T ADD POSITIONS....I MERELY USED A PLAYER AT LD INSTEAD
                                            OF RD......for vicea versa....been winning your leagues BILL....d’oh.,..of
                                            course you have
                                             
                                            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:53 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                             
                                             
                                            Tell the whole story Dave...

                                            We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which point we removed you.

                                            I don't need people who willfully ignore our rules or try to abuse them.

                                            Bill Corfield


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                            To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm
                                            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                             
                                            I played a player out of position
                                             
                                            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                             
                                             
                                            I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                                            If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                                            Bill Corfield


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                            To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                                            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                             
                                            all of your championships should feel cheesy
                                            davebole
                                             
                                             
                                            Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                             
                                             
                                            I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                                            It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                                             
                                            Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                                             
                                            Bill Corfield


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                                            To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                                            Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                             
                                            Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                                            We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                                            --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Last season, the team in second last
                                            signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Our draft
                                            lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > As far as usage, we donât have any rules about shifts. We have one
                                            team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Herb
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
                                            PM
                                            > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            Cc: Bill Corfield
                                            > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                                            over/under usage (minutes)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            One word: lottery.
                                            > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                                            better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                                            > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                                            and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                                            >
                                            > d
                                            >
                                            > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                                            Corfield wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Brad-
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                                            commissioner of the LHL.
                                            >
                                            > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                                            we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                                            >
                                            > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                                            we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                                            >
                                            > We recently ran into an
                                            issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                                            >
                                            > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                                            professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > The
                                            league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > That situation aside, I've always
                                            felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                                            >
                                            > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                                            just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            Cheers,
                                            >
                                            > Bill Corfield
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: bradutterstrom
                                            > To: hockeydisk
                                            mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            >
                                            Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                                            > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                                            player over/under usage (minutes)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Just wanted
                                            to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                                            >
                                            > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                                            apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                                            >
                                            > How have other
                                            leagues handled this issue?
                                            >





                                          • Dave Bole
                                            you must be the sargent at arms for Bill....ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From: Joe DeAngelis Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:33 PM To:
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              you must be the sargent at arms for Bill....ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                               
                                               
                                               
                                              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:33 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                               
                                               


                                              Translation: You did something that was explicitly against the rules, and therefore which no other owner was allowed to do. 
                                               
                                              Correction me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the very definition of cheating?
                                               
                                              I am in the league in which this went down, and I, as one among many, was not fond of your attempts to break the rules and gain an unfair advantage on the rest of the league.
                                               
                                              I'm not a fan of getting involved in weird, public spats like this, to be honest.  But screw it.  Dave, so long as you're looking to use this venue to take unwarranted potshots at people with no provocation whatsoever, I think it's important and appropriate the audience you seek get a third-person perspective on the situation.  Here it is:
                                               
                                              YOU CHEATED.
                                               
                                              YOU GOT CAUGHT.

                                              GET OVER IT.
                                               
                                              You got pissed off at the guy who caught you and this is you stamping your feet and holding your breath in a venue in which that sort of behavior is pathetic and inappropriate.
                                               
                                              Grow up, dude.
                                               
                                              Joe DeAngelis
                                               

                                              From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                              To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:58 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                               


                                              I DIDN’T ADD POSITIONS....I MERELY USED A PLAYER AT LD INSTEAD
                                              OF RD......for vicea versa....been winning your leagues BILL....d’oh.,..of
                                              course you have
                                               
                                              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:53 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                               
                                               
                                              Tell the whole story Dave...

                                              We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which point we removed you.

                                              I don't need people who willfully ignore our rules or try to abuse them.

                                              Bill Corfield


                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                              To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm
                                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                               
                                              I played a player out of position
                                               
                                              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                               
                                               
                                              I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                                              If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                                              Bill Corfield


                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                              To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                               
                                              all of your championships should feel cheesy
                                              davebole
                                               
                                               
                                              Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                               
                                               
                                              I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                                              It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                                               
                                              Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                                               
                                              Bill Corfield


                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                                              To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                                              Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                               
                                              Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                                              We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                                              --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Last season, the team in second last
                                              signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Our draft
                                              lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > As far as usage, we donât have any rules about shifts. We have one team
                                              that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Herb
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From:
                                              href="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                                              > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06
                                              PM
                                              > To:
                                              target=_blank ymailto="mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              Cc: Bill Corfield
                                              > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player
                                              over/under usage (minutes)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              One word: lottery.
                                              > Those that like to dump games to make their team
                                              better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                                              > I've had to call it out as a commish,
                                              and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                                              >
                                              > d
                                              >
                                              > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill
                                              Corfield wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Brad-
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current
                                              commissioner of the LHL.
                                              >
                                              > The LHL is a strict usage league, but
                                              we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                                              >
                                              > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again,
                                              we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                                              >
                                              > We recently ran into an
                                              issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                                              >
                                              > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a
                                              professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The
                                              league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > That situation aside, I've always
                                              felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                                              >
                                              > Whatever is decided upon, I would
                                              just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              Cheers,
                                              >
                                              > Bill Corfield
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: bradutterstrom
                                              > To: hockeydisk
                                              mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              >
                                              Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                                              > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on
                                              player over/under usage (minutes)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Just wanted
                                              to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                                              >
                                              > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an
                                              apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
                                              >
                                              > How have other
                                              leagues handled this issue?
                                              >





                                            • D. Atkinson
                                              At this point, I m going to ask all to cool the flame war. I leave it all with this thought: It is up to the commissioner and league members of a league to
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                At this point, I'm going to ask all to cool the flame war.
                                                I leave it all with this thought:

                                                It is up to the commissioner and league members of a league to decide what behavior is acceptable for their league.
                                                If a league's members and leadership deem that behavior is "not conducive to the league's interests", they should not hesitate to toss someone from their league.  If it is a long time, valued league member with the transgression, work through it, or change the league rules (I've had to do that as a commish). If you were the one pushing the limits and were called out by the league, deal with it. Odds are very high that you were doing something borderline ethical, or at the least, not in the spirit of sportsmanship. If one must win at all costs, there are lots of other online activities where one can massage one's ego.....that's the joy of the internet.



                                                On 2/21/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Bole wrote:
                                                 

                                                you must be the sargent at arms for Bill....ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                 
                                                 
                                                 
                                                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:33 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                 
                                                 


                                                Translation: You did something that was explicitly against the rules, and therefore which no other owner was allowed to do. 
                                                 
                                                Correction me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the very definition of cheating?
                                                 
                                                I am in the league in which this went down, and I, as one among many, was not fond of your attempts to break the rules and gain an unfair advantage on the rest of the league.
                                                 
                                                I'm not a fan of getting involved in weird, public spats like this, to be honest.  But screw it.  Dave, so long as you're looking to use this venue to take unwarranted potshots at people with no provocation whatsoever, I think it's important and appropriate the audience you seek get a third-person perspective on the situation.  Here it is:
                                                 
                                                YOU CHEATED.
                                                 
                                                YOU GOT CAUGHT.

                                                GET OVER IT.
                                                 
                                                You got pissed off at the guy who caught you and this is you stamping your feet and holding your breath in a venue in which that sort of behavior is pathetic and inappropriate.
                                                 
                                                Grow up, dude.
                                                 
                                                Joe DeAngelis
                                                 

                                                From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                                To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:58 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                 


                                                I DIDN’T ADD POSITIONS....I MERELY USED A PLAYER AT LD INSTEAD
                                                OF RD......for vicea versa....been winning your leagues BILL....d’oh.,..of
                                                course you have
                                                 
                                                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:53 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                 
                                                 
                                                Tell the whole story Dave...

                                                We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which point we removed you.

                                                I don't need people who willfully ignore our rules or try to abuse them.

                                                Bill Corfield


                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                                To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm
                                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                                 
                                                I played a player out of position
                                                 
                                                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                 
                                                 
                                                I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                                                If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                                                Bill Corfield


                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                                To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                                 
                                                all of your championships should feel cheesy
                                                davebole
                                                 
                                                 
                                                Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                 
                                                 
                                                I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                                                It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                                                 
                                                Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                                                 
                                                Bill Corfield


                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                                                To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                                                Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                                 
                                                Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                                                We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                                                --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Our draft lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > As far as usage, we donât have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Herb
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                                                > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM
                                                > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                                                > Cc: Bill Corfield
                                                > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > One word: lottery.
                                                > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                                                > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                                                >
                                                > d
                                                >
                                                > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Brad-
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL.
                                                >
                                                > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                                                >
                                                > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                                                >
                                                > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                                                >
                                                > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk o

                                                (Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                                              • Dave Bole
                                                roger that Dave From: D. Atkinson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:30 PM To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  roger that Dave
                                                   
                                                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:30 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                   
                                                   

                                                  At this point, I'm going to ask all to cool the flame war.
                                                  I leave it all with this thought:

                                                  It is up to the commissioner and league members of a league to decide what behavior is acceptable for their league.
                                                  If a league's members and leadership deem that behavior is "not conducive to the league's interests", they should not hesitate to toss someone from their league.  If it is a long time, valued league member with the transgression, work through it, or change the league rules (I've had to do that as a commish). If you were the one pushing the limits and were called out by the league, deal with it. Odds are very high that you were doing something borderline ethical, or at the least, not in the spirit of sportsmanship. If one must win at all costs, there are lots of other online activities where one can massage one's ego.....that's the joy of the internet.



                                                  On 2/21/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Bole wrote:
                                                   
                                                  you must be the sargent at arms for Bill....ROFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                   
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:33 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                   
                                                   

                                                  Translation: You did something that was explicitly against the rules, and therefore which no other owner was allowed to do. 
                                                   
                                                  Correction me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the very definition of cheating?
                                                   
                                                  I am in the league in which this went down, and I, as one among many, was not fond of your attempts to break the rules and gain an unfair advantage on the rest of the league.
                                                   
                                                  I'm not a fan of getting involved in weird, public spats like this, to be honest.  But screw it.  Dave, so long as you're looking to use this venue to take unwarranted potshots at people with no provocation whatsoever, I think it's important and appropriate the audience you seek get a third-person perspective on the situation.  Here it is:
                                                   
                                                  YOU CHEATED.
                                                   
                                                  YOU GOT CAUGHT.

                                                  GET OVER IT.
                                                   
                                                  You got pissed off at the guy who caught you and this is you stamping your feet and holding your breath in a venue in which that sort of behavior is pathetic and inappropriate.
                                                   
                                                  Grow up, dude.
                                                   
                                                  Joe DeAngelis
                                                   

                                                  From: Dave Bole mailto:pensnr1fan@...
                                                  To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:58 AM
                                                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                   


                                                  I DIDN’T ADD POSITIONS....I MERELY USED A PLAYER AT LD INSTEAD
                                                  OF RD......for vicea versa....been winning your leagues BILL....d’oh.,..of
                                                  course you have
                                                   
                                                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:53 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Tell the whole story Dave...

                                                  We informed you that you were not allowed to add positions to your players. You ignored us and continued to do it anyway at which point we removed you.

                                                  I don't need people who willfully ignore our rules or try to abuse them.

                                                  Bill Corfield


                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: Dave Bole mailto:pensnr1fan@...
                                                  To: hockeydisk mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:50 pm
                                                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                                   
                                                  I played a player out of position
                                                   
                                                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:44 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  I'd be careful Mr. Bole lest I explain to the group why you're not in any of my leagues any more...

                                                  If I was you, I'd let sleeping digs lie...

                                                  Bill Corfield


                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: Dave Bole <pensnr1fan@...>
                                                  To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm
                                                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                                   
                                                  all of your championships should feel cheesy
                                                  davebole
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:28 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                   
                                                   
                                                  I've been in that kind of league where usage was left pretty open...and, I'm proud to say, that I was a few years ago able to ride Rob Tallas to a championship. (.926 save % in 14 games with no restrictions)

                                                  It still feels kind of cheesy, lol...
                                                   
                                                  Plenty of ways to minimize it, but almost all require some monitoring and more work from the league office...
                                                   
                                                  Bill Corfield


                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: bradutterstrom <apbaahl@...>
                                                  To: hockeydisk <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Thu, Feb 21, 2013 12:26 pm
                                                  Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)

                                                   
                                                  Guys, I appreciate the feedback. In this case, it's not tanking that's the issue at all, it's the opposite...exploiting a guy with low GF but who overperforms in APBA, and having him play way too many minutes. And it's not just one team, it's just sort of a standard in the league, I'm one of the biggest 'culprits'. So I just wanted to get a feel for what people's thoughts were, should stricter limits be set in place to keep minutes played more in line?

                                                  We have injuries off, that's part of the issue (as I understand it a player is more likely to be injured if he goes over his GF). But I'm not going to start using injuries, it makes it much more time consuming for everyone and this is a league the relies on simplicity.

                                                  --- In mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com, "Herb Garbutt" wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Last season, the team in second last signed a bad free agent goalie (actually two, after the first one got hurt). I tried to discourage him by giving him the history of how few times the last place team actually got the first pick. He continued anyway and his tanking worked, he dropped to last. In a case of poetic justice, the team that finished second last won the draft lottery.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Our draft lottery, not only selects the first overall pick, but all five non-playoff team spots. And that order holds through every round.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > As far as usage, we donât have any rules about shifts. We have one team that has little depth and goes 19-16-4-1. He eventually got a long-term injury to his No.2 centre and it has really hurt his team.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Herb
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > From: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of D. Atkinson
                                                  > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:06 PM
                                                  > To: mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Cc: Bill Corfield
                                                  > Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > One word: lottery.
                                                  > Those that like to dump games to make their team better will drop out from leagues that use a draft lottery. And it needs to be more than top 2. Yes, there are legit bad teams that will get hurt from time to time, but it is a nice automatic self-correction that helps. I've only seen blatant tanking a couple times, but these guys usually don't last long if a draft lottery cuts their chances.
                                                  > I've had to call it out as a commish, and lost a long term league member once because of it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Leagues need to have some sort of inherent integrity....that's what makes them fun.
                                                  >
                                                  > d
                                                  >
                                                  > On 2/20/2013 4:18 PM, Bill Corfield wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Brad-
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I'm the co-founder/co-commish of the CCHL and current commissioner of the LHL.
                                                  >
                                                  > The LHL is a strict usage league, but we don't regulate how much a team may use a certain player within the context of a given game. Its a bit of a casual league by design and it doesn't seem to be a problem.
                                                  >
                                                  > In the CCHL, its a bit of a different story. Again, we don't mandate shift minimums/maximums or watch player usage other than goalies, who get 125% of NHL actuals.
                                                  >
                                                  > We recently ran into an issue where a long term GM in the league brashly began to bench his better players. Eventually we noticed, asked him about it, and were told basically "we all know who's going to win this season, why try?" We instructed him to put his best lineup back on the ice, which caused a bit of a fuss. This same GM then tried to sign a FA goalie, who was worse than his current goalies in order to lose more games, which would improve his draft position, thereby "helping his team."
                                                  >
                                                  > Our rules stated that GM's must run their teams in a professional manner and implicitly said that the quality of competition was important. This rogue GM tried to exploit some vagueness in our rules and was summarily rejected. He even admitted his "tanking" to the league and let's just say the response wasn't a positive one. We've dealt with it, beefed up the language in our rules and moved on.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > The league voted 21-0 in support of rejecting conduct like what I've described in the future
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > That situation aside, I've always felt that teams running a short roster or maxing out their shifts for the better players assume some risk of poor performance due to fatigue, as well as some increased injury issues.
                                                  >
                                                  > Whatever is decided upon, I would just stress it be clearly communicated in the rules. Make sure all GM's are aware of it and held accountable evenly...
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Cheers,
                                                  >
                                                  > Bill Corfield
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > From: bradutterstrom
                                                  > To: hockeydisk mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com> mailto:hockeydisk%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > Sent: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm
                                                  > Subject: [hockeydisk] discussion on player over/under usage (minutes)
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Just wanted to get people's thoughts on this as it's been somewhat of an issue in some of my leagues. In one of my leagues we've got very strict rules on player usage, shift minimums and maximums, it seems to be a bit much at times and cause some conflict. In my other leagues there are no such limits in place, but I'm starting to have discussions with some GMs about whether it's worth placing some restrictions.
                                                  >
                                                  > What are your thoughts? What's reasonable for an apba league? Should GMs be allowed to double shift their stars as much as they like, even improving their ice time 5 minutes or more over their game fatigue? Should teams be allowed to dress fewer than the maximum number of players, and/or leave players dressed but completely out of any lines (thus likely to not see more than a minute or two of ice time.)
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                                                  > How have other leagues handled this issue?
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