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[hockeydisk] Forward playing the point on the PP

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  • Lou Lombardo
    I m new to the HockeyDisk and I am mainly interested in season replays. I first want to thank the Disk Project team for all of their work. It looks like a
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 12, 1999
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      I'm new to the HockeyDisk and I am mainly interested
      in season replays. I first want to thank the Disk
      Project team for all of their work. It looks like a
      wondeful product.

      My question regards playing a forward at one of the
      defenseman position on PP lines. This is a common
      occurance in real NHL games, as many excellent players
      play the point on their teams PP. Often the reason is
      because of a lack of offensive defenseman to put on
      the point. Will playing the forward out of position
      have a negative effect on the PP? I can visualize the
      PP giving up a bunch of SH goals if the defense rating
      of the forward goes to 0. Has anyone tried this to
      see what kind of results are seen? Thanks.

      Lou
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    • Brett Hall
      ... Well, the forward will be a defencive liability, especially if the puck goes in your own zone. Also, the forward won t be horribly effective on the point
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 12, 1999
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        > My question regards playing a forward at one of the
        > defenseman position on PP lines. This is a common
        > occurance in real NHL games, as many excellent players
        > play the point on their teams PP. Often the reason is
        > because of a lack of offensive defenseman to put on
        > the point. Will playing the forward out of position
        > have a negative effect on the PP? I can visualize the
        > PP giving up a bunch of SH goals if the defense rating
        > of the forward goes to 0. Has anyone tried this to
        > see what kind of results are seen? Thanks.

        Well, the forward will be a defencive liability, especially if the puck
        goes in your own zone.

        Also, the forward won't be horribly effective on the point anyway,
        since forwards who don't play defence aren't given a shot rating at
        the defencive positions.

        I suppose if the forward in question had a 5 'PA' rating, he might be
        moderately useful on the point . . . but you're probably better off
        keeping a defenceman there.

        Brett

        St. Louis Mustangs (GHMHL)
        St. Louis Sting (WWAHL)
        St. Louis Ice Lords (NWHL)
      • Lou Lombardo
        Thanks, Brett. If I give such players ratings at defense (such as Lindros, Sundin, Fleury, etc.) , will the computer manager put them in at defense all the
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 13, 1999
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          Thanks, Brett.

          If I give such players ratings at defense (such as
          Lindros, Sundin, Fleury, etc.) , will the computer
          manager put them in at defense all the time? What
          about if you play with injuries off and manually enter
          line combos. Will the point-playing forward be put
          into a D spot if one D is fatigued? Or will it play a
          player whose primary position is D first?

          Remember, I'm mainly interested in replays at this
          point. So, I would be playing with injuries off and
          manually entered lines. As a solitare player, I
          probably would not take advantage of myself and play
          Lindros on defense all game. :)

          Lou

          > Well, the forward will be a defencive liability,
          > especially if the puck
          > goes in your own zone.
          >
          > Also, the forward won't be horribly effective on the
          > point anyway,
          > since forwards who don't play defence aren't given a
          > shot rating at
          > the defencive positions.
          >
          > I suppose if the forward in question had a 5 'PA'
          > rating, he might be
          > moderately useful on the point . . . but you're
          > probably better off
          > keeping a defenceman there.
          >
          > Brett
          >

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        • Brett Hall
          ... All the time, no. Some of the time, yes. Keep in mind you would have to give them a DEF rating, Shot rating, and a SOG+ rating for them to be inserted
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 13, 1999
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            > If I give such players ratings at defense (such as
            > Lindros, Sundin, Fleury, etc.) , will the computer
            > manager put them in at defense all the time? What
            > about if you play with injuries off and manually enter
            > line combos. Will the point-playing forward be put
            > into a D spot if one D is fatigued? Or will it play a
            > player whose primary position is D first?

            All the time, no. Some of the time, yes. Keep in mind you would
            have to give them a DEF rating, Shot rating, and a SOG+ rating for
            them to be inserted and effective. I recall Sergei Fedorov being
            rated at defence a couple/three years ago, and he got time on the
            point.

            Also keep in mind they will probably get several even-strength
            shifts at defence as well, so the effect you desire probably isn't
            possible as the game is written now. I'd think the best way to do
            such a thing is to play with injuries off, rate the players that you
            know play on the point as a 1 'DEF' on one side or the other, give
            them a reduced shot and SOG+ rating, and see what happens.
            They won't get as much even-strength time due to their 'poor'
            defence at the position (it seems the game places that as a pretty
            high priority when selecting lines), and they will be pretty effective
            as a point man (although not as effective as if they played their
            primary position), especially if they have a 5 'PA' rating.

            If you manually enter line combos with Ray Whitney on the point
            on the top PP unit, then the results may be acceptable. However, I
            have a hard enough time keeping Darryl Sydor on defence where
            he belongs without the computer coach putting him at LW all the
            time. :-) I think rating said player a 1 'DEF' might minimise this
            though.

            Hope this is moderately helpful.

            Brett

            St. Louis Mustangs (GHMHL)
            St. Louis Sting (WWAHL)
            St. Louis Ice Lords (NWHL)
          • Lou Lombardo
            I m still a little green with the game, so I apologize if I touch on some subjects that seem obvious. Does the computer stay true to the line combos that are
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 13, 1999
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              I'm still a little green with the game, so I apologize
              if I touch on some subjects that seem obvious. Does
              the computer stay true to the line combos that are
              used for each game, assuming injuries are off? From
              experience, what does it seem to do in cases where a
              player becomes fatigued? Does the primary position
              have alot to do with whom is used to replace the
              fatigued player in those cases?

              Thanks again, Brett, for your input.

              Lou

              > Also keep in mind they will probably get several
              > even-strength
              > shifts at defence as well, so the effect you desire
              > probably isn't
              > possible as the game is written now. I'd think the
              > best way to do
              > such a thing is to play with injuries off, rate the
              > players that you
              > know play on the point as a 1 'DEF' on one side or
              > the other, give
              > them a reduced shot and SOG+ rating, and see what
              > happens.
              > They won't get as much even-strength time due to
              > their 'poor'
              > defence at the position (it seems the game places
              > that as a pretty
              > high priority when selecting lines), and they will
              > be pretty effective
              > as a point man (although not as effective as if they
              > played their
              > primary position), especially if they have a 5 'PA'
              > rating.
              >
              > If you manually enter line combos with Ray Whitney
              > on the point
              > on the top PP unit, then the results may be
              > acceptable. However, I
              > have a hard enough time keeping Darryl Sydor on
              > defence where
              > he belongs without the computer coach putting him at
              > LW all the
              > time. :-) I think rating said player a 1 'DEF'
              > might minimise this
              > though.
              >
              > Hope this is moderately helpful.
              >
              > Brett
              >
              > St. Louis Mustangs (GHMHL)
              > St. Louis Sting (WWAHL)
              > St. Louis Ice Lords (NWHL)
              >
              >
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            • Brett Hall
              ... No worries, that s part of what this group is for. The computer AI strays a bit from preset line combos, mainly due to a fatigued player or a player in the
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 13, 1999
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                > I'm still a little green with the game, so I apologize
                > if I touch on some subjects that seem obvious. Does
                > the computer stay true to the line combos that are
                > used for each game, assuming injuries are off?

                > From experience, what does it seem to do in cases where a
                > player becomes fatigued?

                No worries, that's part of what this group is for.

                The computer AI strays a bit from preset line combos, mainly due
                to a fatigued player or a player in the penalty box, etc. If there is a
                lot of special teams play then things seem to get really out of
                whack, especially if your power play units are different than your
                even strength combos.


                > Does the primary position
                > have alot to do with whom is used to replace the
                > fatigued player in those cases?

                Frankly, I'm not sure how/if the computer AI uses the primary
                position in the substitution of players. I've seen the computer AI
                use a player at his third position, but I'm not sure if the AI is
                weighted towards using a player at his primary position first, or if it
                just picks the best man for the job even if it's his 3rd or 4th rated
                position. I suspect the latter, but I'm not positive.

                > Thanks again, Brett, for your input.

                Anytime.

                Brett

                St. Louis Mustangs (GHMHL)
                St. Louis Sting (WWAHL)
                St. Louis Ice Lords (NWHL)
              • Derrick Underwood
                Hey guys I just found a bug with V4, and I thought I would see if it was an anomaly or is a true bug. When you are playing on the PP, and the SH team takes a
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 13, 1999
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                  Hey guys

                  I just found a bug with V4, and I thought I would see if it was an anomaly
                  or is a true bug. When you are playing on the PP, and the SH team takes a
                  delayed penalty, and you score during that delay, the original penalty as
                  well as the delayed one.

                  Derrick
                • Derrick Underwood
                  Well, can t I write good.... the last sentence should have read .. the original penalty was ended as well as the delayed one. Derrick ... From: Derrick
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 13, 1999
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                    Well, can't I write good....

                    the last sentence should have read .."the original penalty was ended as well
                    as the delayed one."

                    Derrick

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Derrick Underwood [mailto:derrick@...]
                    Sent: December 13, 1999 3:13 PM
                    To: hockeydisk@egroups.com
                    Subject: [hockeydisk] a new bug


                    Hey guys

                    I just found a bug with V4, and I thought I would see if it was an anomaly
                    or is a true bug. When you are playing on the PP, and the SH team takes a
                    delayed penalty, and you score during that delay, the original penalty as
                    well as the delayed one.

                    Derrick


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                  • Brett Hall
                    ... Edgar Allan Poe your (sic) not. :-) ... For what it s worth, I think that s happened to me once as well. Brett St. Louis Mustangs (GHMHL) St. Louis Sting
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 13, 1999
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                      > Well, can't I write good....

                      Edgar Allan Poe your (sic) not. :-)

                      > the last sentence should have read .."the original penalty was ended
                      > as well as the delayed one."

                      For what it's worth, I think that's happened to me once as well.

                      Brett

                      St. Louis Mustangs (GHMHL)
                      St. Louis Sting (WWAHL)
                      St. Louis Ice Lords (NWHL)
                    • SV206@aol.com
                      Derrick, Just ran into that myself, just figured there was no way to beat it,so the heck with it. Is anyone working on reconfiguring for the NHL OT tie
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 14, 1999
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                        Derrick,
                        Just ran into that myself, just figured there was no way to beat it,so
                        the heck with it. Is anyone working on reconfiguring for the NHL OT tie
                        situation?
                        Steve Vetrone, IHA member
                      • D. A. Atkinson
                        ... Very true. Fatigue effects the set line combos alot. If you are worried about your set lines not being used enough, I recommend that you keep your power
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 23, 1999
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                          Brett Hall wrote:

                          > > I'm still a little green with the game, so I apologize
                          > > if I touch on some subjects that seem obvious. Does
                          > > the computer stay true to the line combos that are
                          > > used for each game, assuming injuries are off?
                          >
                          > > From experience, what does it seem to do in cases where a
                          > > player becomes fatigued?
                          >
                          > No worries, that's part of what this group is for.
                          >
                          > The computer AI strays a bit from preset line combos, mainly due
                          > to a fatigued player or a player in the penalty box, etc. If there is a
                          > lot of special teams play then things seem to get really out of
                          > whack, especially if your power play units are different than your
                          > even strength combos.
                          >

                          Very true. Fatigue effects the set line combos alot. If you are worried
                          about your set lines not being used enough, I recommend that you
                          keep your power play lines the same as your even strength lines
                          and fill your short handed lines with your 4th liners. This is not always
                          practical, but it will help keep your lines in tact.

                          > > Does the primary position
                          > > have alot to do with whom is used to replace the
                          > > fatigued player in those cases?
                          >
                          > Frankly, I'm not sure how/if the computer AI uses the primary
                          > position in the substitution of players. I've seen the computer AI
                          > use a player at his third position, but I'm not sure if the AI is
                          > weighted towards using a player at his primary position first, or if it
                          > just picks the best man for the job even if it's his 3rd or 4th rated
                          > position. I suspect the latter, but I'm not positive.
                          >
                          > > Thanks again, Brett, for your input.
                          >
                          > Anytime.
                          >

                          The defense rating plays in the strongest after fatigue. The primary
                          position thing isn't an overriding factor. If a player has a higher
                          defensive rating at the 3rd position and he is not fatigued, he will
                          most likely play before a player with a lower defensive rating
                          at the primary position, if the set line can't be used for fatigue reasons.

                          There are some computer coach complications in this hierarchy. If you
                          have a couple of hot shot scorers that can't play defense (Mogilny for
                          example) and the rest of your team is very strong defensively, you may
                          have trouble getting enough minutes for your scorers. This is tough
                          to balance out in the AI....do you always play your scorers or not? How
                          important is defense? It would be nice to make this customizable, which
                          was attempted with the defensive line matchup profile thing, but nobody
                          seems to use it. I guess it just got too complicated. It might be easier to
                          give a weighting system as to leaning toward offense or defense when
                          picking lines.

                          Dave
                        • zachtower@home.com
                          Im kind of new to this Message Board, just discovering it last night. I am Commissioner of the ESHL; http://members.xoom.com/eshlweb, and we have tinkered with
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 30, 2000
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                            Im kind of new to this Message Board, just discovering it last night.

                            I am Commissioner of the ESHL; http://members.xoom.com/eshlweb, and
                            we have tinkered with the forward playing point while on the PP. Here
                            is what we've discovered.

                            I allow a team to select 1 player as a Point Guy. That player gets a
                            rating at whatever point the GM selects, and is given a 1 DEF rating.
                            On top of that, the player also gets Shot% and Shot+ ratings, usually
                            a bit lower than his normal position as a forward.

                            ----------------------------

                            It is a help, not as good a help as one would think, but its nice to
                            see a Joe Sakic fire one home from 90 feet.

                            The opposing team doesn't get that many more short-handed chances
                            than normal.

                            The computer seems to get the lowly defensive rated forward off the
                            ice as quick as possible. It might be wise to coach the PP team
                            during PP's if you want that forward to stay out there.

                            Lastly, the computer will NOT put the forward on your defensive
                            pairs. It has happened though, but usually very late in a game (in
                            OT), but only when all the other dmen are in fatigue already and
                            atleast 2 of the starting dmen have left with injury.
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