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RE: [hockeydisk] Digest Number 530

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  • Aaron Consoli
    Hi Dave, thanks for the response. I understand your point completely, but don t the players get ranked so that they work in a simulated situation?? Niko
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 2, 2004
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             Hi Dave, thanks for the response. I understand your point completely, but don't the players get ranked so that they work in a simulated situation?? Niko Kapanen had 10 points this year, and has better numbers than a 48 point man?? I guess I was hoping Cheechoo could get me more than ten points or I would have drafted Kapanen. I did not get a chance to watch too many San Jose games this year, but 28 goals and 47 points should get a player more than 3 across the board. It just seems as though there has been a tiny under estimation.

      Anyway

      Aaron



       




       
      >From: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [hockeydisk] Digest Number 530 >Date: 2 Dec 2004 21:06:16 -0000 > > >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> >Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. >Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! >http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/scUolB/TM >--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > >There are 7 messages in this issue. > >Topics in this digest: > > 1. RE: Digest Number 529 > From: "Aaron Consoli" <aaronconsoli@...> > 2. Re: Digest Number 529 > From: "David Bole" <PenzNr1Fan@...> > 3. Question ? > From: Sylvain Dallaire <dall013@...> > 4. Re: Question ? > From: "David Bole" <PenzNr1Fan@...> > 5. Re: Digest Number 529 > From: Herb Garbutt <herbgarbutt@...> > 6. Re: FB rating > From: Martin Baldwin <baldwin@...> > 7. Re: Question ? > From: "Brett Hall" <brett@...> > > >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > >Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 10:22:01 -0500 > From: "Aaron Consoli" <aaronconsoli@...> >Subject: RE: Digest Number 529 > > > >[This message is not in displayable format] > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > >Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:32:15 -0500 > From: "David Bole" <PenzNr1Fan@...> >Subject: Re: Digest Number 529 > >Aaron, > Being one of the raters for the disk, I can honestly tell you that ratings >aren't given out on Goals scored, total points or only on statistics. Ratings >are done by people that have actually seen CheeChoo play numerous games. >Either on the tube or in person. That's the way it's been done since APBA >quit doing the disk and the only fair way to rate a player. > If anyone out there would like to expound on this please do ! >DAVE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aaron Consoli > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:22 AM > Subject: RE: [hockeydisk] Digest Number 529 > > > I was wondering if someone out there in the disk making world could tell me how Jonathan Cheechoo only received a high value of 3 across the board even though he scored 28 goals in San Jose this past year. I am trying to use Cheechoo in the simulated version of the game, and he has yet to get a point in 10 games. There are clearly worse players that have received a higher rating then Cheechoo, yet they only scored half the points or less than the points Cheechoo got. Hartnell, Kobasew, Hagman, Niko Kapanen, just to name a few bums. If someone has an explanation other than their personal opinion I would be flattered by a response. > > Thank you, > > Aaron > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hockeydisk/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > hockeydisk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > >[This message contained attachments] > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > >Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:37:17 -0500 (EST) > From: Sylvain Dallaire <dall013@...> >Subject: Question ? > > >Does someone got the way to use Team Strategies in APHComm ? Does a user manuel exist ? > >Thanks > >Sylvain > > > >David Bole <PenzNr1Fan@...> wrote: Aaron, > Being one of the raters for the disk, I can honestly tell you that ratings >aren't given out on Goals scored, total points or only on statistics. Ratings
      >are done by people that have actually seen CheeChoo play numerous games. >Either on the tube or in person. That's the way it's been done since APBA >quit doing the disk and the only fair way to rate a player. > If anyone out there would like to expound on this please do ! >DAVE > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Aaron Consoli >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:22 AM >Subject: RE: [hockeydisk] Digest Number 529 > > > > I was wondering if someone out there in the disk making world could tell me how Jonathan Cheechoo only received a high value of 3 across the board even though he scored 28 goals in San Jose this past year. I am trying to use Cheechoo in the simulated version of the game, and he has yet to get a point in 10 games. There are clearly worse players that have received a higher rating then
      Cheechoo, yet they only scored half the points or less than the points Cheechoo got. Hartnell, Kobasew, Hagman, Niko Kapanen, just to name a few bums. If someone has an explanation other than their personal opinion I would be flattered by a response. > >Thank you, > >Aaron > > > >Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > >--------------------------------- >Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hockeydisk/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >hockeydisk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > >--------------------------------- >L�che-vitrine ou l�che-�cran ? Yahoo! Magasinage. > > >[This message contained attachments] > > >
      >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > >Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:45:08 -0500 > From: "David Bole" <PenzNr1Fan@...> >Subject: Re: Question ? > >isn't that in the HELP menu ? Or you could ask the creator of the program. >Jeff Kraus. >DAVE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sylvain Dallaire > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:37 AM > Subject: [hockeydisk] Question ? > > > Does someone got the way to use Team Strategies in APHComm ? Does a user manuel exist ? > > Thanks > > Sylvain > > > > > > David Bole <PenzNr1Fan@...> wrote: > Aaron, > Being one of the raters for the disk, I can honestly tell you that
      ratings > aren't given out on Goals scored, total points or only on statistics. Ratings > are done by people that have actually seen CheeChoo play numerous games. > Either on the tube or in person. That's the way it's been done since APBA > quit doing the disk and the only fair way to rate a player. > If anyone out there would like to expound on this please do ! > DAVE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aaron Consoli > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:22 AM > Subject: RE: [hockeydisk] Digest Number 529 > > > I was wondering if someone out there in the disk making world could tell me how Jonathan Cheechoo only received a high value of 3 across the board even though he scored 28 goals in San Jose this past year. I am trying to use Cheechoo in the simulated version of the game, and he has yet to get a point in 10 games. There are clearly worse players that have received a higher rating then Cheechoo, yet they only scored half the points or less than the points Cheechoo got. Hartnell, Kobasew, Hagman, Niko Kapanen, just to name a few bums. If someone has an explanation other than their personal opinion I would be flattered by a response. > > Thank you, > > Aaron > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > L�che-vitrine ou l�che-�cran ? Yahoo! Magasinage. > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hockeydisk/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > hockeydisk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > >[This message contained attachments] > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > >Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 11:48:59 -0500 > From: Herb Garbutt <herbgarbutt@...> >Subject: Re: Digest Number 529 > >Hi Aaron, >This really isn't uncommon at all. Another good example would be Luc >Robitaille. Even in his prime 50-goal season days, I doubt he had any >ratings above a 3 (and if he did they were probably wrong). He's a poor >skater, he's not much of a playmaker and he's not very physical and he's >too slow to be an effective forechecker. He deserves a 3 at best for any >of those skills. His biggest asset is his shot, which doesn't get rated >(at least not on the 1-5 scale). That is one of the hidden ratings that >Dave works to get a player A/ take the correct number of shots, B/ score >on the proper ratio of his shots. > >Having worked on gathering the ratings for a couple of years now, this >is one of the biggest pitfalls among the ratings. Raters can sometimes >get caught up rating a player's stats, not rating the player. An above >average player can have average ratings and still acheive his above >average numbers. Just like a below average player can have a very high >rating or two. There are guys who are among the best skaters in the >league but they can't finish or play defence and this holds them back >(Randy Robitaille and until this past season, Shean Donovan, come to >mind). To sum it all up: A player with straight 3s could very easily >outperform a player with straight 4s because player 3 has an awesome >shot while player 4 can't put the puck in the ocean (which will be >reflected in the hidden shooting ratings). > >Cheecho is alive and well in our league. He has eight goals in 24 games >despite just getting 11.3 minutes of ice time per game, which would put >him on pace for 27 goals. This is probably just one of those things >where if he already had say 10 goals in 30 games and then went 10 games >without a point, you probably wouldn't even notice. But because it >happens at the beginning of the year, it really sticks out. >Another point: the disk is tested on 100s of test seasons and the final >ratings and hidden ratings are based on the averages of those seasons. >So in some years a player will under perform. In others they may over
      >perform, in some they may hit their marks right on. But you can't judge >the disk solely on one season, and especially not on a 10-game segment >of one season. > >Herb > >Aaron Consoli wrote: > > > > > I was wondering if someone out there in the disk making world > > could tell me how Jonathan Cheechoo only received a high value of 3 > > across the board even though he scored 28 goals in San Jose this past > > year. I am trying to use Cheechoo in the simulated version of the > > game, and he has yet to get a point in 10 games. There are clearly > > worse players that have received a higher rating then Cheechoo, yet > > they only scored ha lf the points or less than the points Cheechoo > > got. Hartnell, Kobasew, Hagman, Niko Kapanen, just to name a few bums. > > If someone has an explanation other than
      their personal opinion I > > would be flattered by a response. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Aaron > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [click here] > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hockeydisk/ > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > hockeydisk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > >[This message contained attachments] > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________
      > >Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:32:29 -0800 > From: Martin Baldwin <baldwin@...> >Subject: Re: FB rating > >I assume you are using Jean-Henri Duteau's APBA utilities. FB is >supposed to be a measure of a player's overall value. It stands for >Formula Base and has it's roots in the birth of the RHL - almost 10 >years ago now! > >The formulae for FB are outlined in our league rules. Go to >http://www.rhlcentral.com/rhl/rules.html and search for "Annex A". > >We used it in our inaugural season for determining the starting >salaries for each player (it was FB * $10000). It wasn't really used >much after that except as a rough guide for how good a player is. I >suggest you ignore it. :) > >- Martin. > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > >Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:58:07 -0600 > From: "Brett Hall" <brett@...> >Subject: Re: Question ? > >Don't ask Jeff Kraus, as his program (APHComm) is only an interface for the >APBA Hockey program itself. > >The use of advanced strategies are outlined (albeit poorly) in the manual >that came with APBA Hockey. > >If you, uh, lost it . . . someone still has a link with it up at: > >http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Slope/7433/apbap1.txt >http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Slope/7433/apbap2.txt >http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Slope/7433/apbap3.txt >http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Slope/7433/apbap4.txt >http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Slope/7433/apbap5.txt > >-- >Brett Hall >http://nwhl.puckage.com/ >-----
      Original Message ----- >From: "David Bole" <PenzNr1Fan@...> >To: <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:45 AM >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Question ? > > >isn't that in the HELP menu ? Or you could ask the creator of the program. >Jeff Kraus. >DAVE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sylvain Dallaire > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:37 AM > Subject: [hockeydisk] Question ? > > > Does someone got the way to use Team Strategies in APHComm ? Does a >user manuel exist ? > > Thanks > > Sylvain > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > > >
      >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Yahoo! Groups Links > ><*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hockeydisk/ > ><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > hockeydisk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >
    • Andrew Martin
      ... Aaron, I watched 50+ Sharks games this year, and I can side easily with Brett s assessment. What you are missing is that the ratings points. Sure,
      Message 2 of 2 , Dec 2, 2004
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        >
        > Hi Dave, thanks for the response. I understand your point
        > completely, but don't the players get ranked so that they work in a
        > simulated situation?? Niko Kapanen had 10 points this year, and has
        > better numbers than a 48 point man?? I guess I was hoping Cheechoo
        > could get me more than ten points or I would have drafted Kapanen.
        > I did not get a chance to watch too many San Jose games this year,
        > but 28 goals and 47 points should get a player more than 3 across
        > the board. It just seems as though there has been a tiny under
        > estimation.
        > Anyway
        > Aaron

        Aaron,
        I watched 50+ Sharks games this year, and I can side easily with
        Brett's assessment. What you are missing is that the ratings <>
        points. Sure, better passing will help, better skating will help
        ,etc. But if you're a goal scorer (which Cheechoo is), those ratings
        don't help nearly as much as the OTHER ratings - the hidden/shot%
        ratings.

        Ditto the comments about Luc Robitaille (or heck, if you want to go back,
        Ray Sheppard). Those guys didn't score goals because they were great
        skaters, physical, terriffic passers, forecheckers, etc. Those are exactly
        the reasons that you are propounding the Cheechoo should have higher
        ratings - it's not correct. There is an abundance of proof that you don't
        have to be a great skater or passer to be a goal scorer. It helps of
        course, but it's not going to do it if you don't have a quick release,
        strong shot, accurate shot, no when/where to get to in relation to the
        puck, etc.

        Scott Gomez (as an example) is an unorthodox, but very good skater with
        above average speed. Very good hands (hence high passing rating) but he's
        not a good scorer. Why? Below average shot, mostly. So what does it mean
        in APBA? Nothing. The OTHER ratings will help dictate goal scoring much
        more than the Physical ones - so he can have higher speed, pass skate, and
        yet he's not all of a sudden a 30 goal scorer.

        It sounds like you want to draft players based on ratings. If that's the
        case, then you should have passed on Cheechoo. He's a MUCH better skater
        than his rookie season, but still below average for the NHL (IMO). He's
        certainly still slower than average for the NHL - although this past
        season he at least improved to faster than Todd Harvey. I think it was a
        gift for him to get 3's across the board. He may never make it up to a 3
        speed, although he could. I was impressed with his improvement from year 1
        to year 2.

        Andrew
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