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Re: [hockeydisk] Data Base

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  • D. Atkinson
    ... Access. Any good database program that allows for complex queries should work well. Access is probably used the most because of how common it is (part of
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 3, 2002
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      mark wendling wrote:

      > I am curious to know what some of the leagues that are keeping track of
      > career stats are using for this.
      >
      > Our league has in Year 7 now, and I use excel, it is getting to be a real
      > pain, it would be nice to just upload each years stats and then get the
      > reports.
      >
      > What are people using out there? Of course as always I am looking for an
      > inexpensive solution.....
      >
      > thanks
      >

      Access.
      Any good database program that allows for complex queries should work
      well. Access is probably used the most because of how common it is (part
      of the Microsoft Office Suite). However, Foxpro, dBase, etc. should all
      work as well. Access also imports Excel files directly as databases. This is
      nice, because I import the stats into Excel first (from the APHComm export
      function) and then clean up the formatting (column order, etc.) in Excel
      before
      import into Access. It is easier to edit in Excel.
      The power of queries in Access is amazing. Not only can you do career stuff
      easily, but you can ask the database just about anything else you can imagine,
      such
      as leaders over certain years only, leaders while playing with a specific
      team, etc.
      IMHO, the trend of games adding fancy career stats stuff is crazy, one export
      function and a good database can do much better than what programmers throw
      into a game. Then, they can use the energy to make the game engines better,
      add other features etc.

      Dave
    • Andrew Martin
      My comment on this is that I don t WANT to do an export (necessarily) in order to get stats the way I want them. There should be real easy methods of doing 99%
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 3, 2002
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        My comment on this is that I don't WANT to do an export (necessarily) in order
        to get stats the way I want them. There should be real easy methods of doing 99%
        of what anyone wants in the program that you buy. Particularly one which has
        many miriads of stats. Most of the tool libraries have most DB functions in
        them anyway, so it's not all that much overhead. If a certain app (hockey sim)
        has an installed base that uses a specific function, and you know about it, you
        should put it in and not expect them to buy a $200 app to do it. Using this
        argument, virtually no stats output is OK, and I think we agree that's not OK.
        You do have to set limits (I don't think they should all come with a report
        generator that lets you customize everything) but I don't see any/much reason
        why sports sims should not be able to save off stats for multiple seasons and
        have a 'normal' stats output and some basic queries work in the same app for
        conglomerated multiple seasons.

        Andrew

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "mark wendling" <nlhaoha@...>
        To: <hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:12 PM
        Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Data Base


        > I agree with you on the program doing it. Its a waste of good programming
        > space....
        >
        > I have access, but have not had a chance to figure out to program it....
        >
        > Does anyone have it already programmed that I could just import my data?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >From: "D. Atkinson" <bigdog@...>
        > >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
        > >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
        > >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Data Base
        > >Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:12:13 -0700
        > >
        > >mark wendling wrote:
        > >
        > > > I am curious to know what some of the leagues that are keeping track of
        > > > career stats are using for this.
        > > >
        > > > Our league has in Year 7 now, and I use excel, it is getting to be a
        > >real
        > > > pain, it would be nice to just upload each years stats and then get the
        > > > reports.
        > > >
        > > > What are people using out there? Of course as always I am looking for an
        > > > inexpensive solution.....
        > > >
        > > > thanks
        > > >
        > >
        > >IMHO, the trend of games adding fancy career stats stuff is crazy, one
        > >export
        > >function and a good database can do much better than what programmers throw
        > >into a game. Then, they can use the energy to make the game engines better,
        > >add other features etc.
        > >
        > > Dave
        > >



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      • Ed Hebscher
        I use access ed ... From: mark wendling [mailto:nlhaoha@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:04 PM To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com Subject:
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 3, 2002
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          I use access

          ed


          -----Original Message-----
          From: mark wendling [mailto:nlhaoha@...]
          Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:04 PM
          To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [hockeydisk] Data Base


          I am curious to know what some of the leagues that are keeping track of
          career stats are using for this.

          Our league has in Year 7 now, and I use excel, it is getting to be a real
          pain, it would be nice to just upload each years stats and then get the
          reports.

          What are people using out there? Of course as always I am looking for an
          inexpensive solution.....

          thanks



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          http://www.hotmail.com





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        • mark wendling
          I am curious to know what some of the leagues that are keeping track of career stats are using for this. Our league has in Year 7 now, and I use excel, it is
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 3, 2002
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            I am curious to know what some of the leagues that are keeping track of
            career stats are using for this.

            Our league has in Year 7 now, and I use excel, it is getting to be a real
            pain, it would be nice to just upload each years stats and then get the
            reports.

            What are people using out there? Of course as always I am looking for an
            inexpensive solution.....

            thanks



            _________________________________________________________________
            Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
            http://www.hotmail.com
          • mark wendling
            I agree with you on the program doing it. Its a waste of good programming space.... I have access, but have not had a chance to figure out to program it....
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 3, 2002
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              I agree with you on the program doing it. Its a waste of good programming
              space....

              I have access, but have not had a chance to figure out to program it....

              Does anyone have it already programmed that I could just import my data?




              >From: "D. Atkinson" <bigdog@...>
              >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
              >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Data Base
              >Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:12:13 -0700
              >
              >mark wendling wrote:
              >
              > > I am curious to know what some of the leagues that are keeping track of
              > > career stats are using for this.
              > >
              > > Our league has in Year 7 now, and I use excel, it is getting to be a
              >real
              > > pain, it would be nice to just upload each years stats and then get the
              > > reports.
              > >
              > > What are people using out there? Of course as always I am looking for an
              > > inexpensive solution.....
              > >
              > > thanks
              > >
              >
              >Access.
              >Any good database program that allows for complex queries should work
              >well. Access is probably used the most because of how common it is (part
              >of the Microsoft Office Suite). However, Foxpro, dBase, etc. should all
              >work as well. Access also imports Excel files directly as databases. This
              >is
              >nice, because I import the stats into Excel first (from the APHComm export
              >function) and then clean up the formatting (column order, etc.) in Excel
              >before
              >import into Access. It is easier to edit in Excel.
              >The power of queries in Access is amazing. Not only can you do career stuff
              >easily, but you can ask the database just about anything else you can
              >imagine,
              >such
              >as leaders over certain years only, leaders while playing with a specific
              >team, etc.
              >IMHO, the trend of games adding fancy career stats stuff is crazy, one
              >export
              >function and a good database can do much better than what programmers throw
              >into a game. Then, they can use the energy to make the game engines better,
              >add other features etc.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >




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            • othl@msn.com
              I do all my reporting out of Access, too. These days the entire Access database sits on my web site and all of the web reports are generated dynamically from
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 4, 2002
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                I do all my reporting out of Access, too.  These days the entire Access database sits on my web site and all of the web reports are generated dynamically from the database.  If the game files weren't so freaking big I'd do the same with box scores.

                I agree that APBA's report package is pretty bad, but there's only been one sports game that did include a report package that came close to meeting my needs (Pursue the Pennant Baseball, now called Diamond Mind I think).  The only way I'd be happy is if they had a built-in report writer and you won't see that without doubling (at least) the cost of the game.  Remember, at its peak APBA was only selling for about $25, and that included the season disk that cost $20 by itself! 

                Also have to keep in mind that the game was obviously (and inexplicably) not designed with leagues in mind.  It seems it was designed for the APBA geek who will spend four years replaying a season, game by game, so he can write a summary of his years of work in the APBA Journal.  (Not intended as a swipe at those who actually do that sort of thing - I actually was such a geek once only I used a freaking board game!)  Career mode was the furthest thing from their minds I'm sure.

                So, like Dave said, I'd rather see development time spent on making the game engine better.  I prefer to have complete control over what goes on my league's web site.



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              • D. Atkinson
                othl@msn.com wrote: I do all my reporting out of Access, too. These days the entire Access database sits on my web site and all of the web reports are
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 4, 2002
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                  othl@... wrote:
                   
                  I do all my reporting out of Access, too.  These days the entire Access database sits on my web site and all of the web reports are generated dynamically from the database.  If the game files weren't so freaking big I'd do the same with box scores.

                  I agree that APBA's report package is pretty bad, but there's only been one sports game that did include a report package that came close to meeting my needs (Pursue the Pennant Baseball, now called Diamond Mind I think).  The only way I'd be happy is if they had a built-in report writer and you won't see that without doubling (at least) the cost of the game.  Remember, at its peak APBA was only selling for about $25, and that included the season disk that cost $20 by itself!

                  Also have to keep in mind that the game was obviously (and inexplicably) not designed with leagues in mind.  It seems it was designed for the APBA geek who will spend four years replaying a season, game by game, so he can write a summary of his years of work in the APBA Journal.  (Not intended as a swipe at those who actually do that sort of thing - I actually was such a geek once only I used a freaking board game!)  Career mode was the furthest thing from their minds I'm sure.

                  So, like Dave said, I'd rather see development time spent on making the game engine better.  I prefer to have complete control over what goes on my league's web site.


                  Spreadsheets and databases make it much easier to handle league history databases. Andrew had a good point in his post: "If a certain app (hockey sim) has an installed base that uses a specific function, and you know about it, you should put it in and not expect them to buy a $200 app to do it." You can't ignore putting some database type functions in a sim. There are those that would scream (rightfully so) if they had to pay extra money for a database if they didn't already own one, and needed one just to handle the stats from a game. Granted, there are free database programs available on the net, but, one could argue that a sim should include one in case the buyer is totally unaware/unwilling to use external programs. But, with that said, I can't see any sports sim coming even close to including the stats handling power of a database like Access. If a sim company tries, they definitely are wasting resources that could be used to enhance the game engine (the usual weakness) or other more important features. So, what a top notch sim really should do is provide a decent basic framework of stats databasing (stats sorting, leaders, etc.), without spending too much resources that detracts from the rest of the game quality. Then, it should also add a customizable export feature (you pick what you want exported) so that those that take advantage of the power of external database programs can have what they need. Since so many of us use Access, perhaps we should start sharing queries and reports in this forum. I have started writing Access report macros to output html files exactly how I want them. I haven't gotten real far yet, but I hope to use this approach to replace some of the utilities that I have written to handle stats output for a web page.

                                Dave

                • Ed Hebscher
                  I would love to share my Access data with others..anything to make life easier. Contact me off list and I will send what you want Ed ... From: D. Atkinson
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 4, 2002
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                    I would love to share my Access data with others..anything to make life easier.  Contact me off list and I will send what you want
                     
                    Ed
                     
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: D. Atkinson [mailto:bigdog@...]
                    Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 9:11 AM
                    To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Data Base

                    othl@... wrote:
                     
                    I do all my reporting out of Access, too.  These days the entire Access database sits on my web site and all of the web reports are generated dynamically from the database.  If the game files weren't so freaking big I'd do the same with box scores.

                    I agree that APBA's report package is pretty bad, but there's only been one sports game that did include a report package that came close to meeting my needs (Pursue the Pennant Baseball, now called Diamond Mind I think).  The only way I'd be happy is if they had a built-in report writer and you won't see that without doubling (at least) the cost of the game.  Remember, at its peak APBA was only selling for about $25, and that included the season disk that cost $20 by itself!

                    Also have to keep in mind that the game was obviously (and inexplicably) not designed with leagues in mind.  It seems it was designed for the APBA geek who will spend four years replaying a season, game by game, so he can write a summary of his years of work in the APBA Journal.  (Not intended as a swipe at those who actually do that sort of thing - I actually was such a geek once only I used a freaking board game!)  Career mode was the furthest thing from their minds I'm sure.

                    So, like Dave said, I'd rather see development time spent on making the game engine better.  I prefer to have complete control over what goes on my league's web site.


                    Spreadsheets and databases make it much easier to handle league history databases. Andrew had a good point in his post: "If a certain app (hockey sim) has an installed base that uses a specific function, and you know about it, you should put it in and not expect them to buy a $200 app to do it." You can't ignore putting some database type functions in a sim. There are those that would scream (rightfully so) if they had to pay extra money for a database if they didn't already own one, and needed one just to handle the stats from a game. Granted, there are free database programs available on the net, but, one could argue that a sim should include one in case the buyer is totally unaware/unwilling to use external programs. But, with that said, I can't see any sports sim coming even close to including the stats handling power of a database like Access. If a sim company tries, they definitely are wasting resources that could be used to enhance the game engine (the usual weakness) or other more important features. So, what a top notch sim really should do is provide a decent basic framework of stats databasing (stats sorting, leaders, etc.), without spending too much resources that detracts from the rest of the game quality. Then, it should also add a customizable export feature (you pick what you want exported) so that those that take advantage of the power of external database programs can have what they need. Since so many of us use Access, perhaps we should start sharing queries and reports in this forum. I have started writing Access report macros to output html files exactly how I want them. I haven't gotten real far yet, but I hope to use this approach to replace some of the utilities that I have written to handle stats output for a web page.

                                  Dave

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                  • D. Atkinson
                    Ed Hebscher wrote: I would love to share my Access data with others..anything to make life easier. Contact me off list and I will send what you want Ed There
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 5, 2002
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                      Ed Hebscher wrote:
                       I would love to share my Access data with others..anything to make life easier.  Contact me off list and I will send what you wantEd


                      There is a file upload section of this yahoogroups thing where we can put files
                      for others. One thing I do recommend is that people post query or report files, or
                      maybe example database files with 3 or 4 players records as an example. DON'T
                      post an entire league database with hundreds or thousands of player records. It's
                      alot of wasted space and bandwidth.

                                      Dave
                       
                       

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