Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF

Expand Messages
  • bkd61@juno.com
    Has anyone heard of or talked anyone about updating this game. Maybe getting it out of the old outdated DOS enviroment and into a WINDOWS interface? This game
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 24, 2001
      Has anyone heard of or talked anyone about updating this game.
      Maybe getting it out of the old outdated DOS enviroment and into a
      WINDOWS interface? This game could really roar if this could be
      achieved. I have just become a Hockey fan this past year from
      starting a league using verion 4.02. I am hooked to say the least. I
      am still learning the game of hockey itself but using this simulation
      and see the realistic results it produces more than sold me on the
      sport. Any feedback out there would be much appreciated.

      Thanks.
      Bryan
    • othl@msn.com
      Improving APBA: That s something everyone has talked about and nobody can do anything about. It s not even produced any more. Dave Atkinson has the source code
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 25, 2001
        Improving APBA:  That's something everyone has talked about and nobody can do anything about.  It's not even produced any more.  Dave Atkinson has the source code for the game and the ability to make enhancements, but not the time.  I've thought about trying to buy the rights from APBA and convert it to a Windows game, but even if I had the time there's no way it'll ever be (economically) worth the amount of time it'll take to write the software.


        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
      • bkd61@juno.com
        Are there enough of us out there to pool together enough $ to find a programmer to update this game? What would the cost be to do it? Has anyone checked into
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 25, 2001
          Are there enough of us out there to pool together enough $ to find a
          programmer to update this game? What would the cost be to do it? Has
          anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone else love this
          simulation this much then we should at least make an attempt to
          improve it. We might fail but you will never know until you try.
          Just an idea.

          Bryan
        • Hank Stalica
          ... Hrrmmmhhh.... I wonder if we could set up some sort of an escrow account where each person deposits and amount they are comfortable with, and then this
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 25, 2001
            on 7/25/01 9:42 AM, bkd61@... at bkd61@... wrote:

            > Are there enough of us out there to pool together enough $ to find a
            > programmer to update this game? What would the cost be to do it? Has
            > anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone else love this
            > simulation this much then we should at least make an attempt to
            > improve it. We might fail but you will never know until you try.
            > Just an idea.
            >
            > Bryan
            Hrrmmmhhh....
            I wonder if we could set up some sort of an escrow account where each person
            deposits and amount they are comfortable with, and then this account could
            be used to pay for the development?

            --Hank
          • Jeff Kraus
            If you re talking about a real update of the game - new interface, improve the engine, etc. - you re looking at a *minimum* of 200 hours, more like 250.
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 29, 2001
              If you're talking about a "real" update of the game - new interface, improve the engine, etc. - you're looking at a *minimum* of 200 hours, more like 250.  Shoot, from what Dave tells me about the existing, undocumented spaghetti code it might take that long just to *understand* the current engine.

              In "real" programmer hours at $40-$50 per hour, you're looking at between $8,000 and $12,500.  Even in "cut rate, I'm a nice guy, do-it-in-my-spare-time" programmer hours at $10 per hour, you're looking at over $2,000.
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: bkd61@...
              Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:10 AM
              To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
               
              Are there enough of us out there to pool together enough $ to find a
              programmer to update this game? What would the cost be to do it? Has
              anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone else love this
              simulation this much then we should at least make an attempt to
              improve it. We might fail but you will never know until you try.
              Just an idea.

              Bryan


              ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
              Small business owners...
              Tell us what you think!
              http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/scUolB/TM
              ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




              Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
            • Fotiu22Fan@AOL.com
              Lets see if 200 or more people will commit to $10 each? It cost more for me and my wife to go see a movie. Anthony Blanda In a message dated
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 29, 2001
                            Lets see if 200 or more people will commit to $10 each? It cost
                more for me and my wife to go see a movie.                   Anthony Blanda

                In a message dated 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, othl@...
                writes:


                Subj: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                Date: 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
                From:    othl@... (Jeff Kraus)
                Reply-to: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                To:    hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com




                If you're talking about a "real" update of the game - new interface,
                improve the engine, etc. - you're looking at a *minimum* of 200 hours, more
                like 250.  Shoot, from what Dave tells me about the existing, undocumented
                spaghetti code it might take that long just to *understand* the current
                engine.

                In "real" programmer hours at $40-$50 per hour, you're looking at between
                $8,000 and $12,500.  Even in "cut rate, I'm a nice guy,
                do-it-in-my-spare-time" programmer hours at $10 per hour, you're looking at
                over $2,000.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: bkd61@...
                Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:10 AM
                To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF

                Are there enough of us out there to pool together enough $ to find a
                programmer to update this game? What would the cost be to do it? Has
                anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone else love this
                simulation this much then we should at least make an attempt to
                improve it. We might fail but you will never know until you try.
                Just an idea.

                Bryan





              • Mathias Creutz
                If there s enough ppl willing to work on this in their spare time, why not try and get a community going? I mean, there are heaps of open source/free ( not as
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                  If there's enough ppl willing to work on this in their
                  spare time, why not try and get a community going?
                  I mean, there are heaps of open source/free ( not as
                  in free beer) software projects out there, so why
                  should this have to be any different if there's ppl
                  with the skills around and who'd be really interested
                  in this kind of project?

                  //Mathias


                  --- Fotiu22Fan@... wrote: > Lets
                  see if 200 or more people will
                  > commit to $10 each? It cost
                  > more for me and my wife to go see a movie.
                  > Anthony Blanda
                  >
                  > In a message dated 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific
                  > Daylight Time, othl@...
                  > writes:
                  >
                  >
                  > > Subj: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                  > GAME ITSELF
                  > > Date: 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
                  > > From: othl@... (Jeff Kraus)
                  > > Reply-to: <A
                  >
                  HREF="mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com">hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com</A>
                  > > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > If you're talking about a "real" update of the
                  > game - new interface,
                  > > improve the engine, etc. - you're looking at a
                  > *minimum* of 200 hours, more
                  > > like 250. Shoot, from what Dave tells me about
                  > the existing, undocumented
                  > > spaghetti code it might take that long just to
                  > *understand* the current
                  > > engine.
                  > >
                  > > In "real" programmer hours at $40-$50 per hour,
                  > you're looking at between
                  > > $8,000 and $12,500. Even in "cut rate, I'm a nice
                  > guy,
                  > > do-it-in-my-spare-time" programmer hours at $10
                  > per hour, you're looking at
                  > > over $2,000.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                  > >> From: bkd61@...
                  > >> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:10 AM
                  > >> To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                  > >> Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                  > GAME ITSELF
                  > >>
                  > >> Are there enough of us out there to pool together
                  > enough $ to find a
                  > >> programmer to update this game? What would the
                  > cost be to do it? Has
                  > >> anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone
                  > else love this
                  > >> simulation this much then we should at least make
                  > an attempt to
                  > >> improve it. We might fail but you will never know
                  > until you try.
                  > >> Just an idea.
                  > >>
                  > >> Bryan
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  _____________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Ditt_namn@... - skaffa en gratis mailadress på http://mail.yahoo.se
                • Tod Bolt
                  I m no computer programmer but I would be willing to go for the 200 people donating $10 or even 100 people donating $20. But if its going to be done a s
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                    I'm no computer programmer but I would be willing to go for the 200 people
                    donating $10 or even 100 people donating $20.
                    But if its going to be done a s acommunity thing I'm totally useless as I
                    hardly know how to run the APBA program let alone re-program it :)
                    It sure would be nice to have an updated APBA program
                    Later
                    Tod Bolt

                    Mathias Creutz wrote:

                    > If there's enough ppl willing to work on this in their
                    > spare time, why not try and get a community going?
                    > I mean, there are heaps of open source/free ( not as
                    > in free beer) software projects out there, so why
                    > should this have to be any different if there's ppl
                    > with the skills around and who'd be really interested
                    > in this kind of project?
                    >
                    > //Mathias
                    >
                    > --- Fotiu22Fan@... wrote: > Lets
                    > see if 200 or more people will
                    > > commit to $10 each? It cost
                    > > more for me and my wife to go see a movie.
                    > > Anthony Blanda
                    > >
                    > > In a message dated 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific
                    > > Daylight Time, othl@...
                    > > writes:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > Subj: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                    > > GAME ITSELF
                    > > > Date: 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
                    > > > From: othl@... (Jeff Kraus)
                    > > > Reply-to: <A
                    > >
                    > HREF="mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com">hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com</A>
                    > > > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > If you're talking about a "real" update of the
                    > > game - new interface,
                    > > > improve the engine, etc. - you're looking at a
                    > > *minimum* of 200 hours, more
                    > > > like 250. Shoot, from what Dave tells me about
                    > > the existing, undocumented
                    > > > spaghetti code it might take that long just to
                    > > *understand* the current
                    > > > engine.
                    > > >
                    > > > In "real" programmer hours at $40-$50 per hour,
                    > > you're looking at between
                    > > > $8,000 and $12,500. Even in "cut rate, I'm a nice
                    > > guy,
                    > > > do-it-in-my-spare-time" programmer hours at $10
                    > > per hour, you're looking at
                    > > > over $2,000.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                    > > >> From: bkd61@...
                    > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:10 AM
                    > > >> To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >> Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                    > > GAME ITSELF
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Are there enough of us out there to pool together
                    > > enough $ to find a
                    > > >> programmer to update this game? What would the
                    > > cost be to do it? Has
                    > > >> anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone
                    > > else love this
                    > > >> simulation this much then we should at least make
                    > > an attempt to
                    > > >> improve it. We might fail but you will never know
                    > > until you try.
                    > > >> Just an idea.
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Bryan
                    > > >>
                    > > >>
                    > > >>
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > _____________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Ditt_namn@... - skaffa en gratis mailadress på http://mail.yahoo.se
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Thomas Lindh
                    I agree... You don t have to have a new sim, because apba still works fine, but as a commissioner it would be a great idea to have all those small programs
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                      I agree...

                      You don't have to have a new sim, because apba still works fine, but as a
                      commissioner it would be a great idea to have all those small programs
                      gathered in one tool. Here are some of the features that would be a dream to
                      have...

                      - nice outputs of everything from stats to advanced gm-lists with records
                      and everything. Perhaps player-profile outputs with career-stats. Injuries,
                      transactions, boxscores and so on. Everything in one click.
                      - chance of importing lines done in the commissioner-program that already is
                      available. Also by one click.
                      - maybe add a good finance-system
                      - perhaps a good freeagent-system
                      - and more...

                      I might be dreaming, but a program like this would have made the sim one of
                      the best on the market and also perhaps the easiest to be commish in. It
                      shouldn't be impossible, because programs for most of the features above are
                      already done. I know how to program in VB and outputs and stuff like that
                      aint so hard if you have the data-type setup and know how to take the info
                      from the apba-files. That is the hard part though, but some programmers have
                      already done it.

                      I rather see a group work with an idea like this, than to do a whole new
                      apba-sim.

                      just my 2 cents

                      / Thomas

                      -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                      Från: Scott Hyjek [mailto:shyjek99@...]
                      Skickat: den 30 juli 2001 16:08
                      Till: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                      Ämne: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF


                      I think Jeff makes a very good point. The simulator itself despite it's
                      outdated interface seem fine. From a league and effort perspective we might
                      be better served to develop a universal league toolkit to compliment the
                      game. Jeff Kraus has already done exemplary work in this area, and i
                      personally know several GMs that have developed their own toolkits. This
                      would not only make life easier and more interesting for commissioners and
                      owners alike, but might add to our simulator's popularity, which might
                      increase use, which might get more "hockey knowledgable" folks available to
                      contribute to the hockey disk project annually.


                      >From: "Jeff Dunlop" <zopust@...>
                      >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                      >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:19:40 -0400
                      >
                      >I don't know about you guys and gals, but I think that while the game
                      >itself
                      >cannot be improved upon, we can still improve the other areas that can
                      >still
                      >add to the gaming experience.
                      >
                      >I am in a pool in which the commissioner runs a program to let you know
                      >what
                      >type of injury occurred. I have heard of leagues that have their fights
                      >run
                      >through a boxing simulator to see who really wins these fights... I think
                      >that if we expand on anything, it should be the sharing of knowledge and
                      >ideas. If all of us are in pools that we think are really great, why don't
                      >we describe why they are great, and then other people might get some ideas
                      >for their own pools from there.
                      >
                      >What do you think?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >From: "mark wendling" <nlhaoha@...>
                      > >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                      > >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                      > >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:12:06
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >There is one key thing missing from the whole thing, and that is the cost
                      > >to
                      > >buy the current program from whoever owns it these days.
                      > >
                      > >That will be much more than the the 2,000 that people are looking at.
                      > >
                      > >Unless we have a sugar daddy out there, it aint gonna happen....
                      > >
                      > > >From: Tod Bolt <tod.sara@...>
                      > > >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                      > > >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:32:39 -0600
                      > > >
                      > > >I'm no computer programmer but I would be willing to go for the 200
                      > >people
                      > > >donating $10 or even 100 people donating $20.
                      > > >But if its going to be done a s acommunity thing I'm totally useless as

                      >I
                      > > >hardly know how to run the APBA program let alone re-program it :)
                      > > >It sure would be nice to have an updated APBA program
                      > > >Later
                      > > >Tod Bolt
                      > > >
                      > > >Mathias Creutz wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > > If there's enough ppl willing to work on this in their
                      > > > > spare time, why not try and get a community going?
                      > > > > I mean, there are heaps of open source/free ( not as
                      > > > > in free beer) software projects out there, so why
                      > > > > should this have to be any different if there's ppl
                      > > > > with the skills around and who'd be really interested
                      > > > > in this kind of project?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > //Mathias
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- Fotiu22Fan@... wrote: > Lets
                      > > > > see if 200 or more people will
                      > > > > > commit to $10 each? It cost
                      > > > > > more for me and my wife to go see a movie.
                      > > > > > Anthony Blanda
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In a message dated 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific
                      > > > > > Daylight Time, othl@...
                      > > > > > writes:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Subj: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                      > > > > > GAME ITSELF
                      > > > > > > Date: 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
                      > > > > > > From: othl@... (Jeff Kraus)
                      > > > > > > Reply-to: <A
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > >HREF="mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com">hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com</A>
                      > > > > > > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > If you're talking about a "real" update of the
                      > > > > > game - new interface,
                      > > > > > > improve the engine, etc. - you're looking at a
                      > > > > > *minimum* of 200 hours, more
                      > > > > > > like 250. Shoot, from what Dave tells me about
                      > > > > > the existing, undocumented
                      > > > > > > spaghetti code it might take that long just to
                      > > > > > *understand* the current
                      > > > > > > engine.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > In "real" programmer hours at $40-$50 per hour,
                      > > > > > you're looking at between
                      > > > > > > $8,000 and $12,500. Even in "cut rate, I'm a nice
                      > > > > > guy,
                      > > > > > > do-it-in-my-spare-time" programmer hours at $10
                      > > > > > per hour, you're looking at
                      > > > > > > over $2,000.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > >> From: bkd61@...
                      > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:10 AM
                      > > > > > >> To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > >> Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                      > > > > > GAME ITSELF
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >> Are there enough of us out there to pool together
                      > > > > > enough $ to find a
                      > > > > > >> programmer to update this game? What would the
                      > > > > > cost be to do it? Has
                      > > > > > >> anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone
                      > > > > > else love this
                      > > > > > >> simulation this much then we should at least make
                      > > > > > an attempt to
                      > > > > > >> improve it. We might fail but you will never know
                      > > > > > until you try.
                      > > > > > >> Just an idea.
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >> Bryan
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >>
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > _____________________________________________________
                      > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > > > Ditt_namn@... - skaffa en gratis mailadress på
                      > >http://mail.yahoo.se
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >_________________________________________________________________
                      > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                      >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >_________________________________________________________________
                      >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >


                      _________________________________________________________________
                      Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp





                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • mark wendling
                      There is one key thing missing from the whole thing, and that is the cost to buy the current program from whoever owns it these days. That will be much more
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                        There is one key thing missing from the whole thing, and that is the cost to
                        buy the current program from whoever owns it these days.

                        That will be much more than the the 2,000 that people are looking at.

                        Unless we have a sugar daddy out there, it aint gonna happen....

                        >From: Tod Bolt <tod.sara@...>
                        >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                        >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:32:39 -0600
                        >
                        >I'm no computer programmer but I would be willing to go for the 200 people
                        >donating $10 or even 100 people donating $20.
                        >But if its going to be done a s acommunity thing I'm totally useless as I
                        >hardly know how to run the APBA program let alone re-program it :)
                        >It sure would be nice to have an updated APBA program
                        >Later
                        >Tod Bolt
                        >
                        >Mathias Creutz wrote:
                        >
                        > > If there's enough ppl willing to work on this in their
                        > > spare time, why not try and get a community going?
                        > > I mean, there are heaps of open source/free ( not as
                        > > in free beer) software projects out there, so why
                        > > should this have to be any different if there's ppl
                        > > with the skills around and who'd be really interested
                        > > in this kind of project?
                        > >
                        > > //Mathias
                        > >
                        > > --- Fotiu22Fan@... wrote: > Lets
                        > > see if 200 or more people will
                        > > > commit to $10 each? It cost
                        > > > more for me and my wife to go see a movie.
                        > > > Anthony Blanda
                        > > >
                        > > > In a message dated 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific
                        > > > Daylight Time, othl@...
                        > > > writes:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > > Subj: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                        > > > GAME ITSELF
                        > > > > Date: 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
                        > > > > From: othl@... (Jeff Kraus)
                        > > > > Reply-to: <A
                        > > >
                        > > HREF="mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com">hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com</A>
                        > > > > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > If you're talking about a "real" update of the
                        > > > game - new interface,
                        > > > > improve the engine, etc. - you're looking at a
                        > > > *minimum* of 200 hours, more
                        > > > > like 250. Shoot, from what Dave tells me about
                        > > > the existing, undocumented
                        > > > > spaghetti code it might take that long just to
                        > > > *understand* the current
                        > > > > engine.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > In "real" programmer hours at $40-$50 per hour,
                        > > > you're looking at between
                        > > > > $8,000 and $12,500. Even in "cut rate, I'm a nice
                        > > > guy,
                        > > > > do-it-in-my-spare-time" programmer hours at $10
                        > > > per hour, you're looking at
                        > > > > over $2,000.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > >> From: bkd61@...
                        > > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:10 AM
                        > > > >> To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >> Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                        > > > GAME ITSELF
                        > > > >>
                        > > > >> Are there enough of us out there to pool together
                        > > > enough $ to find a
                        > > > >> programmer to update this game? What would the
                        > > > cost be to do it? Has
                        > > > >> anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone
                        > > > else love this
                        > > > >> simulation this much then we should at least make
                        > > > an attempt to
                        > > > >> improve it. We might fail but you will never know
                        > > > until you try.
                        > > > >> Just an idea.
                        > > > >>
                        > > > >> Bryan
                        > > > >>
                        > > > >>
                        > > > >>
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > _____________________________________________________
                        > > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > > Ditt_namn@... - skaffa en gratis mailadress p� http://mail.yahoo.se
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >


                        _________________________________________________________________
                        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                      • Jeff Dunlop
                        I don t know about you guys and gals, but I think that while the game itself cannot be improved upon, we can still improve the other areas that can still add
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                          I don't know about you guys and gals, but I think that while the game itself
                          cannot be improved upon, we can still improve the other areas that can still
                          add to the gaming experience.

                          I am in a pool in which the commissioner runs a program to let you know what
                          type of injury occurred. I have heard of leagues that have their fights run
                          through a boxing simulator to see who really wins these fights... I think
                          that if we expand on anything, it should be the sharing of knowledge and
                          ideas. If all of us are in pools that we think are really great, why don't
                          we describe why they are great, and then other people might get some ideas
                          for their own pools from there.

                          What do you think?




                          >From: "mark wendling" <nlhaoha@...>
                          >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                          >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:12:06
                          >
                          >
                          >There is one key thing missing from the whole thing, and that is the cost
                          >to
                          >buy the current program from whoever owns it these days.
                          >
                          >That will be much more than the the 2,000 that people are looking at.
                          >
                          >Unless we have a sugar daddy out there, it aint gonna happen....
                          >
                          > >From: Tod Bolt <tod.sara@...>
                          > >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                          > >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                          > >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:32:39 -0600
                          > >
                          > >I'm no computer programmer but I would be willing to go for the 200
                          >people
                          > >donating $10 or even 100 people donating $20.
                          > >But if its going to be done a s acommunity thing I'm totally useless as I
                          > >hardly know how to run the APBA program let alone re-program it :)
                          > >It sure would be nice to have an updated APBA program
                          > >Later
                          > >Tod Bolt
                          > >
                          > >Mathias Creutz wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > If there's enough ppl willing to work on this in their
                          > > > spare time, why not try and get a community going?
                          > > > I mean, there are heaps of open source/free ( not as
                          > > > in free beer) software projects out there, so why
                          > > > should this have to be any different if there's ppl
                          > > > with the skills around and who'd be really interested
                          > > > in this kind of project?
                          > > >
                          > > > //Mathias
                          > > >
                          > > > --- Fotiu22Fan@... wrote: > Lets
                          > > > see if 200 or more people will
                          > > > > commit to $10 each? It cost
                          > > > > more for me and my wife to go see a movie.
                          > > > > Anthony Blanda
                          > > > >
                          > > > > In a message dated 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific
                          > > > > Daylight Time, othl@...
                          > > > > writes:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > Subj: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                          > > > > GAME ITSELF
                          > > > > > Date: 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
                          > > > > > From: othl@... (Jeff Kraus)
                          > > > > > Reply-to: <A
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          >HREF="mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com">hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com</A>
                          > > > > > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > If you're talking about a "real" update of the
                          > > > > game - new interface,
                          > > > > > improve the engine, etc. - you're looking at a
                          > > > > *minimum* of 200 hours, more
                          > > > > > like 250. Shoot, from what Dave tells me about
                          > > > > the existing, undocumented
                          > > > > > spaghetti code it might take that long just to
                          > > > > *understand* the current
                          > > > > > engine.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > In "real" programmer hours at $40-$50 per hour,
                          > > > > you're looking at between
                          > > > > > $8,000 and $12,500. Even in "cut rate, I'm a nice
                          > > > > guy,
                          > > > > > do-it-in-my-spare-time" programmer hours at $10
                          > > > > per hour, you're looking at
                          > > > > > over $2,000.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > > >> From: bkd61@...
                          > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:10 AM
                          > > > > >> To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > >> Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                          > > > > GAME ITSELF
                          > > > > >>
                          > > > > >> Are there enough of us out there to pool together
                          > > > > enough $ to find a
                          > > > > >> programmer to update this game? What would the
                          > > > > cost be to do it? Has
                          > > > > >> anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone
                          > > > > else love this
                          > > > > >> simulation this much then we should at least make
                          > > > > an attempt to
                          > > > > >> improve it. We might fail but you will never know
                          > > > > until you try.
                          > > > > >> Just an idea.
                          > > > > >>
                          > > > > >> Bryan
                          > > > > >>
                          > > > > >>
                          > > > > >>
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > _____________________________________________________
                          > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > > > Ditt_namn@... - skaffa en gratis mailadress p�
                          >http://mail.yahoo.se
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >_________________________________________________________________
                          >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >


                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                        • Scott Hyjek
                          I think Jeff makes a very good point. The simulator itself despite it s outdated interface seem fine. From a league and effort perspective we might be better
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                            I think Jeff makes a very good point. The simulator itself despite it's
                            outdated interface seem fine. From a league and effort perspective we might
                            be better served to develop a universal league toolkit to compliment the
                            game. Jeff Kraus has already done exemplary work in this area, and i
                            personally know several GMs that have developed their own toolkits. This
                            would not only make life easier and more interesting for commissioners and
                            owners alike, but might add to our simulator's popularity, which might
                            increase use, which might get more "hockey knowledgable" folks available to
                            contribute to the hockey disk project annually.


                            >From: "Jeff Dunlop" <zopust@...>
                            >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                            >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:19:40 -0400
                            >
                            >I don't know about you guys and gals, but I think that while the game
                            >itself
                            >cannot be improved upon, we can still improve the other areas that can
                            >still
                            >add to the gaming experience.
                            >
                            >I am in a pool in which the commissioner runs a program to let you know
                            >what
                            >type of injury occurred. I have heard of leagues that have their fights
                            >run
                            >through a boxing simulator to see who really wins these fights... I think
                            >that if we expand on anything, it should be the sharing of knowledge and
                            >ideas. If all of us are in pools that we think are really great, why don't
                            >we describe why they are great, and then other people might get some ideas
                            >for their own pools from there.
                            >
                            >What do you think?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >From: "mark wendling" <nlhaoha@...>
                            > >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                            > >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                            > >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                            > >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:12:06
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >There is one key thing missing from the whole thing, and that is the cost
                            > >to
                            > >buy the current program from whoever owns it these days.
                            > >
                            > >That will be much more than the the 2,000 that people are looking at.
                            > >
                            > >Unless we have a sugar daddy out there, it aint gonna happen....
                            > >
                            > > >From: Tod Bolt <tod.sara@...>
                            > > >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                            > > >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                            > > >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                            > > >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:32:39 -0600
                            > > >
                            > > >I'm no computer programmer but I would be willing to go for the 200
                            > >people
                            > > >donating $10 or even 100 people donating $20.
                            > > >But if its going to be done a s acommunity thing I'm totally useless as
                            >I
                            > > >hardly know how to run the APBA program let alone re-program it :)
                            > > >It sure would be nice to have an updated APBA program
                            > > >Later
                            > > >Tod Bolt
                            > > >
                            > > >Mathias Creutz wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > If there's enough ppl willing to work on this in their
                            > > > > spare time, why not try and get a community going?
                            > > > > I mean, there are heaps of open source/free ( not as
                            > > > > in free beer) software projects out there, so why
                            > > > > should this have to be any different if there's ppl
                            > > > > with the skills around and who'd be really interested
                            > > > > in this kind of project?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > //Mathias
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- Fotiu22Fan@... wrote: > Lets
                            > > > > see if 200 or more people will
                            > > > > > commit to $10 each? It cost
                            > > > > > more for me and my wife to go see a movie.
                            > > > > > Anthony Blanda
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > In a message dated 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific
                            > > > > > Daylight Time, othl@...
                            > > > > > writes:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Subj: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                            > > > > > GAME ITSELF
                            > > > > > > Date: 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
                            > > > > > > From: othl@... (Jeff Kraus)
                            > > > > > > Reply-to: <A
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > >HREF="mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com">hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com</A>
                            > > > > > > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > If you're talking about a "real" update of the
                            > > > > > game - new interface,
                            > > > > > > improve the engine, etc. - you're looking at a
                            > > > > > *minimum* of 200 hours, more
                            > > > > > > like 250. Shoot, from what Dave tells me about
                            > > > > > the existing, undocumented
                            > > > > > > spaghetti code it might take that long just to
                            > > > > > *understand* the current
                            > > > > > > engine.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > In "real" programmer hours at $40-$50 per hour,
                            > > > > > you're looking at between
                            > > > > > > $8,000 and $12,500. Even in "cut rate, I'm a nice
                            > > > > > guy,
                            > > > > > > do-it-in-my-spare-time" programmer hours at $10
                            > > > > > per hour, you're looking at
                            > > > > > > over $2,000.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > > > >> From: bkd61@...
                            > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:10 AM
                            > > > > > >> To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > >> Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                            > > > > > GAME ITSELF
                            > > > > > >>
                            > > > > > >> Are there enough of us out there to pool together
                            > > > > > enough $ to find a
                            > > > > > >> programmer to update this game? What would the
                            > > > > > cost be to do it? Has
                            > > > > > >> anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone
                            > > > > > else love this
                            > > > > > >> simulation this much then we should at least make
                            > > > > > an attempt to
                            > > > > > >> improve it. We might fail but you will never know
                            > > > > > until you try.
                            > > > > > >> Just an idea.
                            > > > > > >>
                            > > > > > >> Bryan
                            > > > > > >>
                            > > > > > >>
                            > > > > > >>
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > _____________________________________________________
                            > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > > > > Ditt_namn@... - skaffa en gratis mailadress p�
                            > >http://mail.yahoo.se
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >_________________________________________________________________
                            > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                            >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >_________________________________________________________________
                            >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >


                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                          • Mathias Creutz
                            One idea of mine would be this, if everybody is happy with the simulation of apba, why not just use the result and build on that? IE, make whatever front end
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                              One idea of mine would be this,
                              if everybody is happy with the simulation of apba,
                              why not just use the result and build on that?
                              IE, make whatever front end you'd like by using the
                              end results from the simulator?
                              ( Just to get the "live" feeling on irc, the web or
                              what have you)

                              Just an idea... :)

                              //Mathias

                              "Ouch, I think he's seen more rubber tonight than a
                              dead cat on a highway !"



                              --- mark wendling <nlhaoha@...> wrote: >
                              > There is one key thing missing from the whole thing,
                              > and that is the cost to
                              > buy the current program from whoever owns it these
                              > days.
                              >
                              > That will be much more than the the 2,000 that
                              > people are looking at.
                              >
                              > Unless we have a sugar daddy out there, it aint
                              > gonna happen....
                              >
                              > >From: Tod Bolt <tod.sara@...>
                              > >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                              > >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                              > >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE
                              > THE GAME ITSELF
                              > >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:32:39 -0600
                              > >
                              > >I'm no computer programmer but I would be willing
                              > to go for the 200 people
                              > >donating $10 or even 100 people donating $20.
                              > >But if its going to be done a s acommunity thing
                              > I'm totally useless as I
                              > >hardly know how to run the APBA program let alone
                              > re-program it :)
                              > >It sure would be nice to have an updated APBA
                              > program
                              > >Later
                              > >Tod Bolt
                              > >
                              > >Mathias Creutz wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > If there's enough ppl willing to work on this in
                              > their
                              > > > spare time, why not try and get a community
                              > going?
                              > > > I mean, there are heaps of open source/free (
                              > not as
                              > > > in free beer) software projects out there, so
                              > why
                              > > > should this have to be any different if there's
                              > ppl
                              > > > with the skills around and who'd be really
                              > interested
                              > > > in this kind of project?
                              > > >
                              > > > //Mathias
                              > > >
                              > > > --- Fotiu22Fan@... wrote: >
                              > Lets
                              > > > see if 200 or more people will
                              > > > > commit to $10 each? It cost
                              > > > > more for me and my wife to go see a movie.
                              > > > > Anthony Blanda
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In a message dated 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific
                              > > > > Daylight Time, othl@...
                              > > > > writes:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > Subj: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND
                              > IMPROVE THE
                              > > > > GAME ITSELF
                              > > > > > Date: 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight
                              > Time
                              > > > > > From: othl@... (Jeff Kraus)
                              > > > > > Reply-to: <A
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              >
                              HREF="mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com">hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com</A>
                              > > > > > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > If you're talking about a "real" update of
                              > the
                              > > > > game - new interface,
                              > > > > > improve the engine, etc. - you're looking at
                              > a
                              > > > > *minimum* of 200 hours, more
                              > > > > > like 250. Shoot, from what Dave tells me
                              > about
                              > > > > the existing, undocumented
                              > > > > > spaghetti code it might take that long just
                              > to
                              > > > > *understand* the current
                              > > > > > engine.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > In "real" programmer hours at $40-$50 per
                              > hour,
                              > > > > you're looking at between
                              > > > > > $8,000 and $12,500. Even in "cut rate, I'm
                              > a nice
                              > > > > guy,
                              > > > > > do-it-in-my-spare-time" programmer hours at
                              > $10
                              > > > > per hour, you're looking at
                              > > > > > over $2,000.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > > >> From: bkd61@...
                              > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:10 AM
                              > > > > >> To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > >> Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND
                              > IMPROVE THE
                              > > > > GAME ITSELF
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> Are there enough of us out there to pool
                              > together
                              > > > > enough $ to find a
                              > > > > >> programmer to update this game? What would
                              > the
                              > > > > cost be to do it? Has
                              > > > > >> anyone checked into it? If myself and
                              > everyone
                              > > > > else love this
                              > > > > >> simulation this much then we should at
                              > least make
                              > > > > an attempt to
                              > > > > >> improve it. We might fail but you will
                              > never know
                              > > > > until you try.
                              > > > > >> Just an idea.
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >> Bryan
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >>
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              >
                              _____________________________________________________
                              > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                              > > > Ditt_namn@... - skaffa en gratis mailadress
                              > på http://mail.yahoo.se
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              _________________________________________________________________
                              > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                              > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >

                              _____________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Ditt_namn@... - skaffa en gratis mailadress på http://mail.yahoo.se
                            • Greg Andrade
                              Is it actually necessary to buy rights from APBA? If I understand correctly, the programmers who took over the Hockey League Simulator did not pay Bethesda
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                                Is it actually necessary to buy rights from APBA? If I understand correctly, the programmers who
                                took over the Hockey League Simulator did not pay Bethesda for any rights to the simulation. If
                                they did, it must have been a minimal amount. The programmers simply generated new shareware
                                programs that built upon the original simulation and created an entirely new interface. This is
                                exactly the thing we're talking about with APBA. I don't know if they did any tweaking to the
                                actual game engine.

                                So if someone simply designed a new front end for APBA, with all the utilities we want, and
                                released it for free on the market, APBA wouldn't have any legal grievance. Actually modifying
                                the game engine might be more problematic, but if no one is making a profit from it, it is not
                                promoted as APBA (the same way HLS now has a different name) and APBA has discontinued production
                                and support for the game, then I doubt there would be any litigation. Besides, APBA probably
                                could not even afford the legal fees involved in pursuing such a case.


                                __________________________________________________
                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
                                http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                              • Thomas Lindh
                                hls2 a different name? new programmers? Have I missed something, because my version of hls2 is done by bethesda and there are no new version of it done by
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                                  hls2 a different name? new programmers? Have I missed something, because my version of hls2 is done by bethesda and there are no new version of it done by other programmers. If you mean the FHL, then it's not the same even if it looks so in some areas. FHL is done by a single programmer called Sean Bates and has nothing to do with hls2. 
                                   
                                  I am not criticizing you, just wonder if I have missed something.  
                                  -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                                  Från: Greg Andrade [mailto:gandrade27@...]
                                  Skickat: den 30 juli 2001 19:03
                                  Till: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                  Ämne: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF

                                  Is it actually necessary to buy rights from APBA?  If I understand correctly, the programmers who
                                  took over the Hockey League Simulator did not pay Bethesda for any rights to the simulation.  If
                                  they did, it must have been a minimal amount.  The programmers simply generated new shareware
                                  programs that built upon the original simulation and created an entirely new interface.  This is
                                  exactly the thing we're talking about with APBA.  I don't know if they did any tweaking to the
                                  actual game engine.

                                  So if someone simply designed a new front end for APBA, with all the utilities we want, and
                                  released it for free on the market, APBA wouldn't have any legal grievance.  Actually modifying
                                  the game engine might be more problematic, but if no one is making a profit from it, it is not
                                  promoted as APBA (the same way HLS now has a different name) and APBA has discontinued production
                                  and support for the game, then I doubt there would be any litigation.  Besides, APBA probably
                                  could not even afford the legal fees involved in pursuing such a case.


                                  __________________________________________________
                                  Do You Yahoo!?
                                  Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
                                  http://phonecard.yahoo.com/


                                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                • Greg Andrade
                                  I remember reading on the web that FHL is actually based on HLS and that there was some transition from HLS to FHL, once Bethesda discontinued its support for
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                                    I remember reading on the web that FHL is actually based on HLS and that there was some transition
                                    from HLS to FHL, once Bethesda discontinued its support for HLS. I believe that FHL is in fact a
                                    separate game now, but much of its structure and its elements are based on HLS. In fact, some of
                                    the elements are virtually identical, but apparently there have been no legal problems with
                                    Bethesda.


                                    --- Thomas Lindh <lindhsky@...> wrote:
                                    > hls2 a different name? new programmers? Have I missed something, because my
                                    > version of hls2 is done by bethesda and there are no new version of it done
                                    > by other programmers. If you mean the FHL, then it's not the same even if it
                                    > looks so in some areas. FHL is done by a single programmer called Sean Bates
                                    > and has nothing to do with hls2.
                                    >
                                    > I am not criticizing you, just wonder if I have missed something.
                                    > -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                                    > Fr�n: Greg Andrade [mailto:gandrade27@...]
                                    > Skickat: den 30 juli 2001 19:03
                                    > Till: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                    > �mne: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Is it actually necessary to buy rights from APBA? If I understand
                                    > correctly, the programmers who
                                    > took over the Hockey League Simulator did not pay Bethesda for any rights
                                    > to the simulation. If
                                    > they did, it must have been a minimal amount. The programmers simply
                                    > generated new shareware
                                    > programs that built upon the original simulation and created an entirely
                                    > new interface. This is
                                    > exactly the thing we're talking about with APBA. I don't know if they did
                                    > any tweaking to the
                                    > actual game engine.
                                    >
                                    > So if someone simply designed a new front end for APBA, with all the
                                    > utilities we want, and
                                    > released it for free on the market, APBA wouldn't have any legal
                                    > grievance. Actually modifying
                                    > the game engine might be more problematic, but if no one is making a
                                    > profit from it, it is not
                                    > promoted as APBA (the same way HLS now has a different name) and APBA has
                                    > discontinued production
                                    > and support for the game, then I doubt there would be any litigation.
                                    > Besides, APBA probably
                                    > could not even afford the legal fees involved in pursuing such a case.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > __________________________________________________
                                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                                    > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
                                    > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                    >
                                    >


                                    __________________________________________________
                                    Do You Yahoo!?
                                    Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
                                    http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                                  • Thomas Lindh
                                    The Fhl is not a part of hls2 in any way, believe me, I know one of the programmers and have done a couple of programs for fhl myself. One thing is sure though
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                                      The Fhl is not a part of hls2 in any way, believe me, I know one of the
                                      programmers and have done a couple of programs for fhl myself. One thing is
                                      sure though and that is that since there were so many hls2-leagues when fhl
                                      was made, then the users asked the programmer if he could add an
                                      hls2-importer, so that leagues didn't have to start from scratch again with
                                      all the rosters and stuff like that. Maybe that is what you have heard?

                                      All the importer did was to transform the leagues done in hls2 to fhl-format
                                      instead.

                                      But, that doesn't matter, maybe you're right about the legalproblems. I
                                      just wanted to make sure that I haven't missed a new version of hls2. :-)

                                      Take care

                                      -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                                      Från: Greg Andrade [mailto:gandrade27@...]
                                      Skickat: den 31 juli 2001 00:50
                                      Till: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                      Ämne: Re: SV: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF


                                      I remember reading on the web that FHL is actually based on HLS and that
                                      there was some transition
                                      from HLS to FHL, once Bethesda discontinued its support for HLS. I believe
                                      that FHL is in fact a
                                      separate game now, but much of its structure and its elements are based on
                                      HLS. In fact, some of
                                      the elements are virtually identical, but apparently there have been no
                                      legal problems with
                                      Bethesda.


                                      --- Thomas Lindh <lindhsky@...> wrote:
                                      > hls2 a different name? new programmers? Have I missed something, because
                                      my
                                      > version of hls2 is done by bethesda and there are no new version of it
                                      done
                                      > by other programmers. If you mean the FHL, then it's not the same even if
                                      it
                                      > looks so in some areas. FHL is done by a single programmer called Sean
                                      Bates
                                      > and has nothing to do with hls2.
                                      >
                                      > I am not criticizing you, just wonder if I have missed something.
                                      > -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                                      > Från: Greg Andrade [mailto:gandrade27@...]
                                      > Skickat: den 30 juli 2001 19:03
                                      > Till: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Ämne: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Is it actually necessary to buy rights from APBA? If I understand
                                      > correctly, the programmers who
                                      > took over the Hockey League Simulator did not pay Bethesda for any
                                      rights
                                      > to the simulation. If
                                      > they did, it must have been a minimal amount. The programmers simply
                                      > generated new shareware
                                      > programs that built upon the original simulation and created an entirely
                                      > new interface. This is
                                      > exactly the thing we're talking about with APBA. I don't know if they
                                      did
                                      > any tweaking to the
                                      > actual game engine.
                                      >
                                      > So if someone simply designed a new front end for APBA, with all the
                                      > utilities we want, and
                                      > released it for free on the market, APBA wouldn't have any legal
                                      > grievance. Actually modifying
                                      > the game engine might be more problematic, but if no one is making a
                                      > profit from it, it is not
                                      > promoted as APBA (the same way HLS now has a different name) and APBA
                                      has
                                      > discontinued production
                                      > and support for the game, then I doubt there would be any litigation.
                                      > Besides, APBA probably
                                      > could not even afford the legal fees involved in pursuing such a case.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > __________________________________________________
                                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                                      > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
                                      > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                      > ADVERTISEMENT
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                      >
                                      >


                                      __________________________________________________
                                      Do You Yahoo!?
                                      Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
                                      http://phonecard.yahoo.com/




                                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    • Tod Bolt
                                      This is the best idea I ve heard so far, but I still think we could all contribute $$$ to the cause if we can t contribute computer programming. In my
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jul 30, 2001
                                        This is the best idea I've heard so far, but I still think we could all
                                        contribute $$$ to the cause if we can't contribute computer programming.
                                        In my experience APBA is the best game simulator but it is falling way behind as
                                        #1 choice for fantasy leagues b/c of the lack of a salary structure, keeping a
                                        list of draft picks...among other things that Thomas mentioned.

                                        If we could bring the APBA sim up to speed with the rest of the simulators it
                                        would be a way better chocie for leagues, but as of now it is just too much
                                        extra work for commissioners to choose.
                                        Anyway, thats my $0.02
                                        Tod Bolt

                                        Thomas Lindh wrote:

                                        > I agree...
                                        >
                                        > You don't have to have a new sim, because apba still works fine, but as a
                                        > commissioner it would be a great idea to have all those small programs
                                        > gathered in one tool. Here are some of the features that would be a dream to
                                        > have...
                                        >
                                        > - nice outputs of everything from stats to advanced gm-lists with records
                                        > and everything. Perhaps player-profile outputs with career-stats. Injuries,
                                        > transactions, boxscores and so on. Everything in one click.
                                        > - chance of importing lines done in the commissioner-program that already is
                                        > available. Also by one click.
                                        > - maybe add a good finance-system
                                        > - perhaps a good freeagent-system
                                        > - and more...
                                        >
                                        > I might be dreaming, but a program like this would have made the sim one of
                                        > the best on the market and also perhaps the easiest to be commish in. It
                                        > shouldn't be impossible, because programs for most of the features above are
                                        > already done. I know how to program in VB and outputs and stuff like that
                                        > aint so hard if you have the data-type setup and know how to take the info
                                        > from the apba-files. That is the hard part though, but some programmers have
                                        > already done it.
                                        >
                                        > I rather see a group work with an idea like this, than to do a whole new
                                        > apba-sim.
                                        >
                                        > just my 2 cents
                                        >
                                        > / Thomas
                                        >
                                        > -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
                                        > Från: Scott Hyjek [mailto:shyjek99@...]
                                        > Skickat: den 30 juli 2001 16:08
                                        > Till: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Ämne: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                                        >
                                        > I think Jeff makes a very good point. The simulator itself despite it's
                                        > outdated interface seem fine. From a league and effort perspective we might
                                        > be better served to develop a universal league toolkit to compliment the
                                        > game. Jeff Kraus has already done exemplary work in this area, and i
                                        > personally know several GMs that have developed their own toolkits. This
                                        > would not only make life easier and more interesting for commissioners and
                                        > owners alike, but might add to our simulator's popularity, which might
                                        > increase use, which might get more "hockey knowledgable" folks available to
                                        > contribute to the hockey disk project annually.
                                        >
                                        > >From: "Jeff Dunlop" <zopust@...>
                                        > >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                                        > >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:19:40 -0400
                                        > >
                                        > >I don't know about you guys and gals, but I think that while the game
                                        > >itself
                                        > >cannot be improved upon, we can still improve the other areas that can
                                        > >still
                                        > >add to the gaming experience.
                                        > >
                                        > >I am in a pool in which the commissioner runs a program to let you know
                                        > >what
                                        > >type of injury occurred. I have heard of leagues that have their fights
                                        > >run
                                        > >through a boxing simulator to see who really wins these fights... I think
                                        > >that if we expand on anything, it should be the sharing of knowledge and
                                        > >ideas. If all of us are in pools that we think are really great, why don't
                                        > >we describe why they are great, and then other people might get some ideas
                                        > >for their own pools from there.
                                        > >
                                        > >What do you think?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >From: "mark wendling" <nlhaoha@...>
                                        > > >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                                        > > >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:12:06
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >There is one key thing missing from the whole thing, and that is the cost
                                        > > >to
                                        > > >buy the current program from whoever owns it these days.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >That will be much more than the the 2,000 that people are looking at.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >Unless we have a sugar daddy out there, it aint gonna happen....
                                        > > >
                                        > > > >From: Tod Bolt <tod.sara@...>
                                        > > > >Reply-To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > >To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > >Subject: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE GAME ITSELF
                                        > > > >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:32:39 -0600
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >I'm no computer programmer but I would be willing to go for the 200
                                        > > >people
                                        > > > >donating $10 or even 100 people donating $20.
                                        > > > >But if its going to be done a s acommunity thing I'm totally useless as
                                        >
                                        > >I
                                        > > > >hardly know how to run the APBA program let alone re-program it :)
                                        > > > >It sure would be nice to have an updated APBA program
                                        > > > >Later
                                        > > > >Tod Bolt
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >Mathias Creutz wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > If there's enough ppl willing to work on this in their
                                        > > > > > spare time, why not try and get a community going?
                                        > > > > > I mean, there are heaps of open source/free ( not as
                                        > > > > > in free beer) software projects out there, so why
                                        > > > > > should this have to be any different if there's ppl
                                        > > > > > with the skills around and who'd be really interested
                                        > > > > > in this kind of project?
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > //Mathias
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- Fotiu22Fan@... wrote: > Lets
                                        > > > > > see if 200 or more people will
                                        > > > > > > commit to $10 each? It cost
                                        > > > > > > more for me and my wife to go see a movie.
                                        > > > > > > Anthony Blanda
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > In a message dated 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific
                                        > > > > > > Daylight Time, othl@...
                                        > > > > > > writes:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Subj: Re: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                                        > > > > > > GAME ITSELF
                                        > > > > > > > Date: 7/29/01 5:15:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
                                        > > > > > > > From: othl@... (Jeff Kraus)
                                        > > > > > > > Reply-to: <A
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > >HREF="mailto:hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com">hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com</A>
                                        > > > > > > > To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > If you're talking about a "real" update of the
                                        > > > > > > game - new interface,
                                        > > > > > > > improve the engine, etc. - you're looking at a
                                        > > > > > > *minimum* of 200 hours, more
                                        > > > > > > > like 250. Shoot, from what Dave tells me about
                                        > > > > > > the existing, undocumented
                                        > > > > > > > spaghetti code it might take that long just to
                                        > > > > > > *understand* the current
                                        > > > > > > > engine.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > In "real" programmer hours at $40-$50 per hour,
                                        > > > > > > you're looking at between
                                        > > > > > > > $8,000 and $12,500. Even in "cut rate, I'm a nice
                                        > > > > > > guy,
                                        > > > > > > > do-it-in-my-spare-time" programmer hours at $10
                                        > > > > > > per hour, you're looking at
                                        > > > > > > > over $2,000.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > > > > >> From: bkd61@...
                                        > > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:10 AM
                                        > > > > > > >> To: hockeydisk@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > > > >> Subject: [hockeydisk] Re: UPDATE AND IMPROVE THE
                                        > > > > > > GAME ITSELF
                                        > > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > > >> Are there enough of us out there to pool together
                                        > > > > > > enough $ to find a
                                        > > > > > > >> programmer to update this game? What would the
                                        > > > > > > cost be to do it? Has
                                        > > > > > > >> anyone checked into it? If myself and everyone
                                        > > > > > > else love this
                                        > > > > > > >> simulation this much then we should at least make
                                        > > > > > > an attempt to
                                        > > > > > > >> improve it. We might fail but you will never know
                                        > > > > > > until you try.
                                        > > > > > > >> Just an idea.
                                        > > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > > >> Bryan
                                        > > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > _____________________________________________________
                                        > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > > > > > Ditt_namn@... - skaffa en gratis mailadress på
                                        > > >http://mail.yahoo.se
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > > > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >_________________________________________________________________
                                        > > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                                        > >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >_________________________________________________________________
                                        > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > _________________________________________________________________
                                        > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.