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15[hockeydisk] Re: Faceoff rating

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  • Brett Hall
    Jul 5, 1999
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      On 5 Jul 99, at 14:51, nickh68@... wrote:

      > ---> I think that the "veterans" in the league, who have been
      > around for a couple of seasons, should be given ratings going
      > by reputation, but not reputation only. But when it comes to
      > Francis, you know that he's one of the best faceoffers in the
      > league, so you give him 4 or 5 on faceoffs instead of maybe 3,
      > because of his reputation. That's correct (at least that's my
      > opinion). But when we talk about other ratings, such as skating
      > or speed, a player can be known for his speed or skating abilities,
      > but over the years his age might have caught up with him and he
      > shouldn't get 5's on skating and speed anymore.

      The thing is, we now have statistics for such things such as
      faceoffs instead of relying solely on reputation for this and other
      attributes. Speed and skating are still (and always will be)
      subjective.

      > So I think that reputation is important, but it depends what
      > ratings we're talking about. A guy like Messier is so good
      > allround, that he should still have 4's and 5's, but not for
      > skating and speed and maybe some other ratings if he's not
      > worth them.

      Messier is still good, but he rarely initiates any physical contact
      anymore, so he shouldn't receive a high 'PH' rating. I could live
      with a high 'IN' rating, as if he does decide to hit you, you'll feel it. :-
      )

      > I also think that the players shouldn't be judged by their +/-
      > too much. Players in Tampa Bay get very bad +/-, but might
      > actually be solid or even good defensively. One good example
      > is rookie Pavel Kubina, who had -32. I've seen him play when
      > the Czech Republic won the World Championships. I know that
      > you can't compare it to the NHL, but he was very impressing
      > in his own end and should get 3 on D...I don't know what he'll
      > get, but it's not impossible that he'll end up with 2 or maybe
      > even 1 because of his poor +/-. He was playing a lot while
      > killing penalties, which also proves that he is solid on D.
      > There are many examples I could bring up here, but I think
      > that Kubina is a perfect example. Bad team, bad ratings.

      Agreed, +/- is not always indicative of how a player performs
      defensively. This is still largely subjective, but less so since
      takeaways and other statistics are now available to us.

      > ---> True, but I still think that they should stay good, since
      > they are valuable to their teams as Captains or veterans
      > and they bring leadership. This leadership must be shown in
      > the ratings and to give them high D ratings and other important
      > ratings, will mean that they help your team in the playoffs.
      > (When it comes to Messier and Chelios that is)
      > At least I like to think so.

      That's all well and good, and I'm not saying Chelios is a 2/2 'D'/'CL'.
      A 4/4 is giving him the benefit of the doubt, and I could live with
      that. But to be the best in the league is a bit much, when guys
      like Chris Pronger and Scott Stevens are clearly superior.

      > ---> I agree, but I also think that when there is a top scorer
      > having an "off-year", then he still should recieve the good
      > ratings and not get worse. His stats are worse, so he'll perform
      > worse. The ratings should be changed when a player goes from 1st
      > or 2nd liner to the checking line or 4th line. Or when someone
      > has a tremendous year without having done much in earlier seasons,
      > then he should get the ratings of a good player or star.

      Agreed, but nothing makes faceoff statistics any different than
      goals or assists now that they are tracked. The only thing to really
      take into consideration is how many faceoffs the guy took, so
      players with large amounts of faceoffs would be given the benefit of
      the doubt and be raised a notch perhaps.

      > ---> Yes, this was what I was looking for, thanks !
      > And I'm glad to see that reputation will be considered when it
      > comes to faceoffs, something I think is very important in the NHL
      > as well as in APBA leagues.

      Well, I think everyone takes reputation into account to an extent.
      This is why rookies have tended to get the shaft in the past,
      because they have no reputation to go on.

      If a guy like Messier (yeah, I like the guy, so I use him as an
      example a lot) looks like he's teetering between a 3 or 4 'D' rating,
      more often than not he'll keep the 4.

      Take care.

      Brett

      St. Louis Mustangs (GHMHL)
      St. Louis Sting (WWAHL)
      St. Louis Ice Lords (NWHL)

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