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Re: [hockey-databank] Re: 2/1/07 database release

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  • slater@alum.rpi.edu
    ... I tend to agree with this sentiment. ... The larger question in my mind is, which seasons never had game sheets vs. which seasons have the game sheets been
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
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      >Hi Stu, the problem with this is that, as you have noted below, until
      >recently the NHL has been more than happy to sanction stats that
      >weren't correct for decades, so I don't think that we are in a position
      >yet to just simply accept what they offer as "officially correct."

      I tend to agree with this sentiment.

      >I'm kind of bothered about the NHL simply sitting on these old
      >scoresheets and making you go into their office to check your
      >information against them. Why don't they just release them? Or compile
      >them themselves and release it? I really don't understand this "must be
      >locked away in a file" attitude towards this old information. Unless,
      >the NHL historical stats are a "pile of garbage", as Morey Holzman dubs
      >it. And if it is garbage, then why wouldn't the NHL want to clean it
      >up??

      The larger question in my mind is, which seasons never had game sheets vs. which seasons have the game sheets been lost or discarded? My impression is that game sheets existed for some of the seasons currently being revisited.

      If game sheets once existed, and the NHL compiled official statistics from them, then I think the bulk of the stats for those seasons is closed, with the exception of items not tabulated (such as games played or player splits).

      If no game sheets ever existed for the first season, for example, then I think that it's OK for that season to be revisited, provided that the research is sound. By sound, I mean that multiple sources should be used, and the results should be documented so that they can be re-checked and validated by others.

      >In fairness, the NHL only published the last name Neville and awarded
      >him one goal. Someone somewhere added the first name "Mike".
      >I agree with you about there being no Neville, and I think I told you
      >about my theory on it, that given the way information was orally passed
      >on by telephone to the wire press services, the name "Noble" was heard
      >to be "Neville" by the person in the wire office and so it was printed
      >in newspapers across the nation.

      Thanks for clearing this up; I am comfortable awarding this goal to Mike Noble. This is similar to the AHL inclusion of a goalie named "Jardine" in 1936-37, with Philadelphia, when their regular goalie was "Gardiner". If you just think about it, it's a clear typo.

      >>
      >> I would love for Bob to write a paper in the SIHR Journal outlining his
      >> trials and tribulations in re-compiling the early stats of the NHL. It
      >> would go a long way to answering many researchers questions.
      >>
      >
      >I agree, he should. It should have been done a long time ago.

      Same here. Even if this is "work for hire" if the NHL and Duff want to be taken seriously, they need to tell people what they're doing instead of just saying "trust us...".

      Ralph Slate
      http://www.hockeydb.com
    • Stu McMurray
      ... How would you have the NHL release the gamesheets?? I mean, it s not going to be a commercial venture that will generate profit, right? So what benefit
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 17, 2007
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        James Karkoski wrote:

        > I'm kind of bothered about the NHL simply sitting on these old
        > scoresheets and making you go into their office to check your
        > information against them. Why don't they just release them? Or
        > compile them themselves and release it? I really don't understand
        > this "must be locked away in a file" attitude towards this old
        > information.

        How would you have the NHL release the gamesheets?? I mean, it's not
        going to be a commercial venture that will generate profit, right? So
        what benefit does it serve them to go to the trouble to compile and
        publish their sheets?? Let's face it, there are only a handful of us
        that are really interested in this type of thing. (my wife calls it my
        "affliction" and tells me in mock anger to "get a life" on a regular
        basis <g>)

        Nothing is "locked away". Benny has always been helpful to me when I
        have gone to the Toronto office. He lets me work alone in the records
        room to do my research and I have been allowed to photocopy sheets and
        take them with me. On the way out I stop by his office and we talk shop
        for awhile. My experience with the NHL, specifically in the Toronto
        office, has always been a positive one. Way better than what Ralph has
        reported with his discussions with Frank Polnaszek.

        Stu




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      • Tangotiger
        ... I used to work in the same building as the NHL, when they were in Montreal. And for a few years, I would ask for the end-of-year full stats (including
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 18, 2007
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          --- Stu McMurray <stumcmurray@...> wrote:
          > Nothing is "locked away". Benny has always been
          > helpful to me when I
          > have gone to the Toronto office. He lets me work
          > alone in the records
          > room to do my research and I have been allowed to
          > photocopy sheets and
          > take them with me. On the way out I stop by his
          > office and we talk shop
          > for awhile. My experience with the NHL, specifically
          > in the Toronto
          > office, has always been a positive one. Way better
          > than what Ralph has
          > reported with his discussions with Frank Polnaszek.

          I used to work in the same building as the NHL, when
          they were in Montreal. And for a few years, I would
          ask for the end-of-year full stats (including full
          plus/minus: TGF, PGF, TGA, PGA). Ercolani didn't know
          me from a hole in the wall, but he went out of his way
          to produce it for me, and have it ready for me for
          pickup.

          Allowing Stu to make copies of the scoresheets is more
          than enough. If someone wants to volunteer to digitize
          them, by scanning them, that might be the next step.

          Tom


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          The Book--Playing The Percentages In Baseball











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        • flyershistory
          I just found out about this group and see my name mentioned :) I can give results from my Quaker exercise using actual NHL game sheets. There are a number of
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 2, 2007
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            I just found out about this group and see my name mentioned :)

            I can give results from my Quaker "exercise" using actual NHL game
            sheets. There are a number of discepancies between NHL official game
            sheet compilations and official stats.

            I'm a little under the weather right now, so it will be a few days, but
            it will further show how "off" the early official stats probably are.
            There were 2 or 3 games where the official game sheets for the Quakers
            were missing.

            Any suggestions on how you'd like to see these stats ? In a CSV file ?

            Peter
          • dsreyn
            CSV sounds good to me. Thanks, Doug
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 4, 2007
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              CSV sounds good to me.

              Thanks,
              Doug

              --- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "flyershistory"
              <flyershistory@...> wrote:
              >
              > I just found out about this group and see my name mentioned :)
              >
              > I can give results from my Quaker "exercise" using actual NHL game
              > sheets. There are a number of discepancies between NHL official game
              > sheet compilations and official stats.
              >
              > I'm a little under the weather right now, so it will be a few days, but
              > it will further show how "off" the early official stats probably are.
              > There were 2 or 3 games where the official game sheets for the Quakers
              > were missing.
              >
              > Any suggestions on how you'd like to see these stats ? In a CSV file ?
              >
              > Peter
              >
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