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2/1/07 database release

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  • dsreyn
    I have made a number of changes in this release. The main ones (other than minor corrections) are as follows: * Removed probable phantoms - Mike Neville,
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 1, 2007
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      I have made a number of changes in this release. The main ones (other
      than minor corrections) are as follows:

      * Removed probable phantoms - Mike Neville, 1917; Bob Price, 1919;
      Charles Fortier, 1923. After the recent discussion, I have decided to
      leave Randy Andreachuk in.

      * Master table:
      - Dropped the "WHA flag" field in favor of two separate fields -
      "firstWHA" and "lastWHA".
      - "lastNHL" now uses a year consistent with the rest of the database
      - e.g., 2005 for 2005-06.
      - "Hal Colborne" is now listed as "Howie Colborne"; "Gordon Spencer"
      is now listed as "Gordon Spence".

      * Scoring table:
      - Substantial revisions for 1917-18 through 1925-26 (and some others
      through about 1940), mainly in line with Total Hockey II. Thanks to
      Stu McMurray for corrected 1917-18 data, which includes game-winning
      goals.
      - Added a couple of missing entries - Gordon Spence, 1925-26, and
      Vic Lynn, 1942-43.
      - Fixed Ron Hextall's goal in the 1988-89 playoffs (now listed
      correctly as a shorthanded goal).
      - Numerous additions to the WHA statistics, drawing primarily from
      Surgent's book.

      * Teams table:
      - The "rank" field for 1917-18 through 1920-21 now represents an
      overall combined ranking for two halves of the season.
      - Added an additional table - TeamsHalf, with separate results for
      the first and second halves of the season for 1917-18 through 1920-21.
      - Added WHA special teams statistics, PIM totals, and bench minors
      (where available).
      - Filled in the playoff result field for 1977-78 and 1978-79 WHA
      seasons (inadvertently omitted previously).

      * Awards:
      - Added WHA awards
      - Separated the awards into three tables - AwardsPlayers,
      AwardsCoaches, and AwardsMisc (the last has only the Lester Patrick
      award, which doesn't really fit in either of the other two).
      - Posthumous Lester Patrick award winners are now indicated.

      * Coaches:
      - A bunch of fixes based on the notes in the introduction to the
      coaching register in Total Hockey II. This primarily impacts early
      NHL seasons (particularly Toronto).
      - Dave Lewis and Barry Smith now have distinct "stint" entries while
      they served as co-coaches in 1998-99.

      * There are three new tables - ScoringSC, GoaliesSC, and TeamsSC.
      These have Stanley Cup Finals data for 1917-18 through 1925-26, when
      the Stanley Cup was not an NHL-only event. Playoff data for these
      seasons in the other tables (Scoring, Goalies, Teams) no longer
      includes the Stanley Cup Finals.

      Doug
    • Ralph Slate
      ... This one is a pet peeve of mine. I m not sure if people are aware of the issues surrounding this, but I ll try and highlight them. From what I understand,
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 1, 2007
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        dsreyn wrote:

        > Substantial revisions for 1917-18 through 1925-26 (and some others
        > through about 1940), mainly in line with Total Hockey II.

        This one is a pet peeve of mine. I'm not sure if people are aware of the
        issues surrounding this, but I'll try and highlight them.

        From what I understand, no one bothered to compile NHL statistics in
        1917-18 for the 1917-18 season. They were compiled years later by
        someone in the NHL. There were no gamesheets, so he presumably used
        newspaper accounts. Games played were not compiled; they were largely
        researched by Charles Coleman in the 1960's.

        Those NHL stats were in effect from perhaps the 30's or 40's until when
        TH2 came out.

        Someone -- Bob Duff, perhaps -- went back and re-compiled the stats from
        the NHL's first season from newspaper accounts. Over 80% of the numbers
        now do not match what had been previously accepted as the correct
        numbers. I'm not sure if the details of this research have ever been
        made public, or if we just have to "trust" whoever recompiled them. I
        believe they even "added" assists, even though the NHL did not compile
        them for that season. They did this by making judgment calls by reading
        the newspaper accounts. I think that's preposterous because it uses
        today's standards to revise history.

        I have had disagreements with Morey Holzman on this issue a number of
        times. He feels that since there is no way to know how the original
        stats were compiled, and since we have no way to prove or disprove any
        errors made while compiling them, and since they were presumably done
        from newspaper articles, that it is OK to create a new set of stats in
        this way. I have heard that the NHL has hired Duff to do this for all
        early NHL seasons, even those which were compiled from actual game
        sheets, now long-gone. I think that's also preposterous because it takes
        the de facto stance that whoever compiled the stats originally was an
        idiot who didn't know what he was doing, and that newspaper writers are
        far more accurate. I find that ridiculous.

        I believe that it is OK to use newspaper reports to fill in information
        that has never been compiled before (such as pre-1942 NHL GP), but using
        the accounts to revise established stats shouldn't be done lightly. At
        the very least, the person undertaking this significant endeavor should
        publish all details behind it, including methodologies and detailed game
        data, and that should be vetted among other researchers.

        Until that is done, I won't accept the clandestine revisions to the
        1917-18 NHL stats, I accept the version published by the NHL augmented
        by the Coleman games played data.

        Ralph
      • Stu McMurray
        ... Hi Guys: Bob Duff recompiled the NHL stats at the request of the league for the 1917-18 through 1925-26 seasons. There are no gamesheets for these seasons.
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 2, 2007
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          Ralph Slate wrote:

          > dsreyn wrote:
          >
          > > Substantial revisions for 1917-18 through 1925-26 (and some others
          > > through about 1940), mainly in line with Total Hockey II.
          >
          > This one is a pet peeve of mine.

          Hi Guys:

          Bob Duff recompiled the NHL stats at the request of the league for the
          1917-18 through 1925-26 seasons. There are no gamesheets for these
          seasons. I have seen first-hand at the NHL office in Toronto that they
          have nothing for those first few years. In fact, there are a few sheets
          missing here and there for all seasons up until the early 1950's.

          The NHL commissioned and accepts Duff's work as official so who are we
          to say otherwise?

          There is no detailed methodology published because this was an inhouse
          project of the NHL and not private "publish or perish" research.

          My personal pet peeve has always been seeing Mike Neville show up in
          the 1917-18 stats. An early researcher made a mistake from a newspaper
          account of a game and the error wasn't corrected for years. Even the
          NHL guide used to include him in their retired player roster, showing
          his first NHL season as 1917-18. The error was corrected based mainly
          on Bob Duff's research.(not to mention the fact that Neville would have
          only been 13 years old at the start of the 1917-18 season!)

          I have talked to Duff a number of times on this interesting subject. He
          has shared his research with me and I provided the stats for the
          1917-18 season to this project because one of the goals here is
          accuracy. What could be more accurate than stats that are deemed
          official by the league in question?

          I would love for Bob to write a paper in the SIHR Journal outlining his
          trials and tribulations in re-compiling the early stats of the NHL. It
          would go a long way to answering many researchers questions.

          Stu




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        • Ralph Slate
          ... That s my peeve -- if score sheets once existed, they were presumably more accurate than newspaper accounts. I can _maybe_ see it for the 1917-18 season,
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 2, 2007
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            Stu McMurray wrote:
            > Bob Duff recompiled the NHL stats at the request of the league for the
            > 1917-18 through 1925-26 seasons. There are no gamesheets for these
            > seasons. I have seen first-hand at the NHL office in Toronto that they
            > have nothing for those first few years. In fact, there are a few sheets
            > missing here and there for all seasons up until the early 1950's.

            That's my peeve -- if score sheets once existed, they were presumably
            more accurate than newspaper accounts. I can _maybe_ see it for the
            1917-18 season, although I think that recreating assists is wrong,
            because they weren't awarded/compiled that season, and since they are
            subjective, this is revisionism.

            The Hockey Summary Project should tell you this. Look at what Pete Anson
            did with boxscores from the Hockey News -- he can't match the official
            stats.

            I would like to see Duff do his thing on a season where gamesheets are
            available -- using the exact same methodology, and then see what he
            comes up with. If there is more than a 1% difference, then I say the
            methodology is simply revisionism based on flawed accounts.

            Ralph
          • Stu McMurray
            Ralph wrote-- That s my peeve -- if score sheets once existed, they were presumably more accurate than newspaper accounts. I can _maybe_ see it for the
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 3, 2007
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              Ralph wrote-->
              That's my peeve -- if score sheets once existed, they were presumably
              more accurate than newspaper accounts. I can _maybe_ see it for the
              1917-18 season, although I think that recreating assists is wrong,
              because they weren't awarded/compiled that season, and since they are
              subjective, this is revisionism.

              Stu writes-->
              There were no score sheets until 1926-27. The NHL relied on newspaper
              accounts. There was no radio coverage back then either. The newspaper
              accounts were the only written record of the games. I am sure they had
              errors but they would be the most accurate account of the games simply
              by default wouldn't they?

              On a side note I found that the majority of the missing sheets for the
              years 1927 to 1952 were from the Chicago home games played on Sundays.
              For some reason these game sheets had a hard time making it to the NHL
              office in Montreal. At the bottom of each sheet it stated that "This
              report should be checked, signed and dispatched to National Hockey
              League, 922 Sun Life Building, by the quickest means possible."
              Apparently the pony express out of the mid-west wasn't reliable when it
              came to delivering hockey reports. <g>

              ===

              Ralph wrote-->
              The Hockey Summary Project should tell you this. Look at what Pete
              Anson did with boxscores from the Hockey News -- he can't match the
              official stats.

              Stu writes-->
              Agreed, but we knew going in that the numbers would be off because THN
              was well known for typos. We used THN as a starting point for our data
              entry because that is what I had access to on a wide basis. I think we
              found that it could be off by 20% or more per year from the official
              stats <gasp> and the penalty totals were always hopelessly way off.

              ===

              Ralph wrote-->
              I would like to see Duff do his thing on a season where gamesheets are
              available -- using the exact same methodology, and then see what he
              comes up with. If there is more than a 1% difference, then I say the
              methodology is simply revisionism based on flawed accounts.

              Stu writes-->
              I have no doubt that the difference would be more than 1%. My
              experience with the HSP and working with THN summaries tells me so.
              Don't get me wrong, I hear you and agree with what you say except as it
              relates to those first 9 years of the NHL where the league itself
              relied on the newspaper accounts. That's the rub, in my view. The
              newspaper accounts were all there ever was back then. There couldn't
              possibly be anything more accurate (or flawed) because nothing else
              existed.

              Stu



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            • Karkoski James
              ... Hi Stu, the problem with this is that, as you have noted below, until recently the NHL has been more than happy to sanction stats that weren t correct for
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 4, 2007
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                On 2007.2.3, at 12:28 PM, Stu McMurray wrote:


                > The NHL commissioned and accepts Duff's work as official so who are we
                > to say otherwise?


                Hi Stu, the problem with this is that, as you have noted below, until
                recently the NHL has been more than happy to sanction stats that
                weren't correct for decades, so I don't think that we are in a position
                yet to just simply accept what they offer as "officially correct."


                >
                > There is no detailed methodology published because this was an inhouse
                > project of the NHL and not private "publish or perish" research.


                I'm kind of bothered about the NHL simply sitting on these old
                scoresheets and making you go into their office to check your
                information against them. Why don't they just release them? Or compile
                them themselves and release it? I really don't understand this "must be
                locked away in a file" attitude towards this old information. Unless,
                the NHL historical stats are a "pile of garbage", as Morey Holzman dubs
                it. And if it is garbage, then why wouldn't the NHL want to clean it
                up??


                >
                > My personal pet peeve has always been seeing Mike Neville show up in
                > the 1917-18 stats. An early researcher made a mistake from a newspaper
                > account of a game and the error wasn't corrected for years. Even the
                > NHL guide used to include him in their retired player roster, showing
                > his first NHL season as 1917-18. The error was corrected based mainly
                > on Bob Duff's research.(not to mention the fact that Neville would have
                > only been 13 years old at the start of the 1917-18 season!)
                >


                In fairness, the NHL only published the last name Neville and awarded
                him one goal. Someone somewhere added the first name "Mike".
                I agree with you about there being no Neville, and I think I told you
                about my theory on it, that given the way information was orally passed
                on by telephone to the wire press services, the name "Noble" was heard
                to be "Neville" by the person in the wire office and so it was printed
                in newspapers across the nation.
                >


                >
                > I would love for Bob to write a paper in the SIHR Journal outlining his
                > trials and tribulations in re-compiling the early stats of the NHL. It
                > would go a long way to answering many researchers questions.
                >

                I agree, he should. It should have been done a long time ago.


                On 2007.2.4, at 01:08 AM, Stu McMurray wrote:

                > Stu writes-->
                > There were no score sheets until 1926-27. The NHL relied on newspaper
                > accounts. There was no radio coverage back then either. The newspaper
                > accounts were the only written record of the games. I am sure they had
                > errors but they would be the most accurate account of the games simply
                > by default wouldn't they?



                Yes and No on the accuracy. Yes because they are all there is. No,
                because it is a problem we have been down the road with the GP because
                the NHL didn't start compiling games GP until 42-43. The different
                books who compiled them have a lot of different numbers on them. I
                think it is save to argue that as soon as we start researching G, A &
                PIM, there is going to a deluge of different numbers from different
                people on these numbers because the newspapers will provide different
                numbers. The question is, do we want to go down this road?? Again, the
                NHL can avoid this in the years after 26-27 by releasing the summaries.


                James
              • slater@alum.rpi.edu
                ... I tend to agree with this sentiment. ... The larger question in my mind is, which seasons never had game sheets vs. which seasons have the game sheets been
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 5, 2007
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                  >Hi Stu, the problem with this is that, as you have noted below, until
                  >recently the NHL has been more than happy to sanction stats that
                  >weren't correct for decades, so I don't think that we are in a position
                  >yet to just simply accept what they offer as "officially correct."

                  I tend to agree with this sentiment.

                  >I'm kind of bothered about the NHL simply sitting on these old
                  >scoresheets and making you go into their office to check your
                  >information against them. Why don't they just release them? Or compile
                  >them themselves and release it? I really don't understand this "must be
                  >locked away in a file" attitude towards this old information. Unless,
                  >the NHL historical stats are a "pile of garbage", as Morey Holzman dubs
                  >it. And if it is garbage, then why wouldn't the NHL want to clean it
                  >up??

                  The larger question in my mind is, which seasons never had game sheets vs. which seasons have the game sheets been lost or discarded? My impression is that game sheets existed for some of the seasons currently being revisited.

                  If game sheets once existed, and the NHL compiled official statistics from them, then I think the bulk of the stats for those seasons is closed, with the exception of items not tabulated (such as games played or player splits).

                  If no game sheets ever existed for the first season, for example, then I think that it's OK for that season to be revisited, provided that the research is sound. By sound, I mean that multiple sources should be used, and the results should be documented so that they can be re-checked and validated by others.

                  >In fairness, the NHL only published the last name Neville and awarded
                  >him one goal. Someone somewhere added the first name "Mike".
                  >I agree with you about there being no Neville, and I think I told you
                  >about my theory on it, that given the way information was orally passed
                  >on by telephone to the wire press services, the name "Noble" was heard
                  >to be "Neville" by the person in the wire office and so it was printed
                  >in newspapers across the nation.

                  Thanks for clearing this up; I am comfortable awarding this goal to Mike Noble. This is similar to the AHL inclusion of a goalie named "Jardine" in 1936-37, with Philadelphia, when their regular goalie was "Gardiner". If you just think about it, it's a clear typo.

                  >>
                  >> I would love for Bob to write a paper in the SIHR Journal outlining his
                  >> trials and tribulations in re-compiling the early stats of the NHL. It
                  >> would go a long way to answering many researchers questions.
                  >>
                  >
                  >I agree, he should. It should have been done a long time ago.

                  Same here. Even if this is "work for hire" if the NHL and Duff want to be taken seriously, they need to tell people what they're doing instead of just saying "trust us...".

                  Ralph Slate
                  http://www.hockeydb.com
                • Stu McMurray
                  ... How would you have the NHL release the gamesheets?? I mean, it s not going to be a commercial venture that will generate profit, right? So what benefit
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 17, 2007
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                    James Karkoski wrote:

                    > I'm kind of bothered about the NHL simply sitting on these old
                    > scoresheets and making you go into their office to check your
                    > information against them. Why don't they just release them? Or
                    > compile them themselves and release it? I really don't understand
                    > this "must be locked away in a file" attitude towards this old
                    > information.

                    How would you have the NHL release the gamesheets?? I mean, it's not
                    going to be a commercial venture that will generate profit, right? So
                    what benefit does it serve them to go to the trouble to compile and
                    publish their sheets?? Let's face it, there are only a handful of us
                    that are really interested in this type of thing. (my wife calls it my
                    "affliction" and tells me in mock anger to "get a life" on a regular
                    basis <g>)

                    Nothing is "locked away". Benny has always been helpful to me when I
                    have gone to the Toronto office. He lets me work alone in the records
                    room to do my research and I have been allowed to photocopy sheets and
                    take them with me. On the way out I stop by his office and we talk shop
                    for awhile. My experience with the NHL, specifically in the Toronto
                    office, has always been a positive one. Way better than what Ralph has
                    reported with his discussions with Frank Polnaszek.

                    Stu




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                  • Tangotiger
                    ... I used to work in the same building as the NHL, when they were in Montreal. And for a few years, I would ask for the end-of-year full stats (including
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 18, 2007
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                      --- Stu McMurray <stumcmurray@...> wrote:
                      > Nothing is "locked away". Benny has always been
                      > helpful to me when I
                      > have gone to the Toronto office. He lets me work
                      > alone in the records
                      > room to do my research and I have been allowed to
                      > photocopy sheets and
                      > take them with me. On the way out I stop by his
                      > office and we talk shop
                      > for awhile. My experience with the NHL, specifically
                      > in the Toronto
                      > office, has always been a positive one. Way better
                      > than what Ralph has
                      > reported with his discussions with Frank Polnaszek.

                      I used to work in the same building as the NHL, when
                      they were in Montreal. And for a few years, I would
                      ask for the end-of-year full stats (including full
                      plus/minus: TGF, PGF, TGA, PGA). Ercolani didn't know
                      me from a hole in the wall, but he went out of his way
                      to produce it for me, and have it ready for me for
                      pickup.

                      Allowing Stu to make copies of the scoresheets is more
                      than enough. If someone wants to volunteer to digitize
                      them, by scanning them, that might be the next step.

                      Tom


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                    • flyershistory
                      I just found out about this group and see my name mentioned :) I can give results from my Quaker exercise using actual NHL game sheets. There are a number of
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 2, 2007
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                        I just found out about this group and see my name mentioned :)

                        I can give results from my Quaker "exercise" using actual NHL game
                        sheets. There are a number of discepancies between NHL official game
                        sheet compilations and official stats.

                        I'm a little under the weather right now, so it will be a few days, but
                        it will further show how "off" the early official stats probably are.
                        There were 2 or 3 games where the official game sheets for the Quakers
                        were missing.

                        Any suggestions on how you'd like to see these stats ? In a CSV file ?

                        Peter
                      • dsreyn
                        CSV sounds good to me. Thanks, Doug
                        Message 11 of 11 , Apr 4, 2007
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                          CSV sounds good to me.

                          Thanks,
                          Doug

                          --- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "flyershistory"
                          <flyershistory@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I just found out about this group and see my name mentioned :)
                          >
                          > I can give results from my Quaker "exercise" using actual NHL game
                          > sheets. There are a number of discepancies between NHL official game
                          > sheet compilations and official stats.
                          >
                          > I'm a little under the weather right now, so it will be a few days, but
                          > it will further show how "off" the early official stats probably are.
                          > There were 2 or 3 games where the official game sheets for the Quakers
                          > were missing.
                          >
                          > Any suggestions on how you'd like to see these stats ? In a CSV file ?
                          >
                          > Peter
                          >
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