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Re: [hockey-databank] Re: Fantastic

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  • slater@alum.rpi.edu
    ... 1987-88 ... I only started this conversation because of the talk of expanding the database with more data that was available at hockeydb . Today it s just
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 1, 2007
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      >Let's be clear on one point - I freely admit that I did not type
      >everything in from scratch, but this database was *not* derived from
      >hockeydb.com. The primary sources used were:
      >
      >* The Hockey Research Association: NHL 1917-18 - 1976-77, 1982-83,
      >1984-85, 1988-89 - 1998-99; team special teams, 1962-63 - 2000-01; all
      >WHA seasons
      >* The Hockey Summary Project: 1977-78 - 1979-80
      >* USA Today: 1999-2000 - 2005-06
      >* North American Pro Hockey (Tom King's site): 1983-84, 1985-86 - 1987-88
      >* Recent team special teams statistics (2001-02 - present) were
      >obtained from ESPN.com

      I only started this conversation because of the talk of expanding the database with more data that was "available at hockeydb". Today it's just NHL/WHA data, but the next logical phase is to include data from other leagues for NHL players, then the next logical phase is to include the other players from those leagues, etc. And before you know it, the goal of the group is to simply scrape data from hockeydb and publish it as a standalone database to let others use it in their own ventures.

      I think this is an important conversation to have, because if the ultimate goal is to open-source all hockeydb.com's data without doing any additional research to augment the body of knowledge, let me know so I can shift my priorities and not get hung up on the idea that I'll be able to ever do this as my day job.

      Ralph Slate
      http://www.hockeydb.com
    • dgoethe
      ... ok, that one was my fault. I was inquiring about draft-info, i.e. Vincent Lecavalier s entry would have draftyear 1998, draftposititon 1 etc. I mentioned
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 1, 2007
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        --- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, <slater@...> wrote:
        >

        >
        > I only started this conversation because of the talk of expanding the
        > database with more data that was "available at hockeydb". Today it's
        > just NHL/WHA data, but the next logical phase is to include data from

        ok, that one was my fault. I was inquiring about draft-info, i.e.
        Vincent Lecavalier's entry would have draftyear 1998, draftposititon 1
        etc.

        I mentioned hockeydb as an example of a source, but you could go to
        any sports-site to find current information and you can look at the
        draftlists in Total Hockey as well.
      • slater@alum.rpi.edu
        The lag on this list is killing me :- ... You don t have my perspective. Generally, when a large body of hockey data appears on the internet, it comes from
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 1, 2007
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          The lag on this list is killing me :->

          >You probably sent this before my last message, but again let me
          >emphasize - this database was NOT "pulled" from hockeydb.com.
          >Frankly, I think it's a bit presumptuous for you to assume that it was.

          You don't have my perspective. Generally, when a large body of hockey data appears on the internet, it comes from one of a small handful of sources. My site, being the most well known, is usually the source.

          >You also seem to be operating under the misconception that I need your
          >blessing (I assume because you still think I've stolen your work). I
          >would certainly like it if you were "on board", but if you aren't,
          >that's OK too.

          That's why I asked what the ultimate goal here is. If it is finite enough I'm glad to help. If the goal is to open-source all data available at hockeydb.com I'd be an idiot to facilitate that.

          >Discussion about whether hockeydb.com has been ripped off is now closed.

          As I wrote (which you may not have read yet), I only initiated this discussion because of the suggestion to pull NHL draft data from hockeydb.com. I assume we can still discuss that?

          Ralph
        • slater@alum.rpi.edu
          ... If this is what you re looking for then I could definitely be in board with helping -- depending on the ultimate goal of this group. ... You _could_ do
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 1, 2007
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            >ok, that one was my fault. I was inquiring about draft-info, i.e.
            >Vincent Lecavalier's entry would have draftyear 1998, draftposititon 1
            >etc.

            If this is what you're looking for then I could definitely be in board with helping -- depending on the ultimate goal of this group.

            >I mentioned hockeydb as an example of a source, but you could go to
            >any sports-site to find current information and you can look at the
            >draftlists in Total Hockey as well.

            You _could_ do that, but it will certainly take you a lot longer to acquire, digitize, scrub, and link the information. There's no rocket science in what I've been doing. It's just effort. But it's an effort that very few people -- or companies -- have attempted over the years, and that's why I'm able to even think about making this a full-time venture -- not so I can sit back on a beach in the Bahamas, but so I can do even more of it.

            Ralph

          • dsreyn
            I ll address scope / goals / to do list shortly in a separate post. Suffice it to say for now that my goal is most definitely *not* to duplicate hockeydb.com
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 1, 2007
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              I'll address scope / goals / "to do" list shortly in a separate post.
              Suffice it to say for now that my goal is most definitely *not* to
              duplicate hockeydb.com in CSV format.

              As far as the chances of this project killing off hockeydb.com, I
              honestly don't think there's much to worry about.
              Baseball-reference.com has continued to grow despite the fact that the
              underlying data is freely available (there has even been talk of
              adding employees in the blog recently).

              Doug

              --- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, <slater@...> wrote:
              > I only started this conversation because of the talk of expanding the
              > database with more data that was "available at hockeydb". Today it's
              > just NHL/WHA data, but the next logical phase is to include data from
              > other leagues for NHL players, then the next logical phase is to include
              > the other players from those leagues, etc. And before you know it, the
              > goal of the group is to simply scrape data from hockeydb and publish it
              > as a standalone database to let others use it in their own ventures.
              >
              > I think this is an important conversation to have, because if the
              > ultimate goal is to open-source all hockeydb.com's data without doing
              > any additional research to augment the body of knowledge, let me know so
              > I can shift my priorities and not get hung up on the idea that I'll be
              > able to ever do this as my day job.
              >
              > Ralph Slate
              > http://www.hockeydb.com
              >
            • tangotiger
              ... Baseball-Reference.com, TheBaseballCube.com, BaseballAlmanac.com, BaseballProspectus.com, REtrosheet.org, and I m sure others, all offer an online baseball
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 1, 2007
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                --- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...> wrote:
                > As far as the chances of this project killing off hockeydb.com, I
                > honestly don't think there's much to worry about.
                > Baseball-reference.com has continued to grow despite the fact that the
                > underlying data is freely available (there has even been talk of
                > adding employees in the blog recently).
                >
                > Doug

                Baseball-Reference.com, TheBaseballCube.com, BaseballAlmanac.com,
                BaseballProspectus.com, REtrosheet.org, and I'm sure others, all offer
                an online baseball database. For the first, definitely, and the 3rd
                and 4th and 5th, likely, they all used, or started to use, the Lahman
                database, which itself has been spawned into baseball-databank.org.

                The reason they can all exist is because the marketplace supports it.
                Only the 2nd one offers minor league data (and draft data). B-r.com
                and Retro offer PBP data in addition. BP.com offers "adjusted" stats.

                Insofar as hockeydb.com, it's existence can be assured as long as it
                keeps something of value, the most important being the minor league
                data. HockeyDB.com can increase its value by including the PP/SH and
                full plus/minus data, and can decrease its value by giving up its draft
                data. Whether that's a fair trade, both sides can decide.

                Since Ralph is a superb researcher, it would be insane to try,
                intentionally or as a byproduct, to squeeze him out. We need guys like
                Ralph.

                Doug has also proven himself to be quite resourceful, and therefore,
                his efforts need to be fed as well, if we want this thing to grow.

                It is also possible that baseball-reference will eventually get into
                the hockey field (or some other site), be it either by buying out Ralph
                or Doug or going on its own. To that end, the sites that don't grow
                will end up being on the short-end.

                I would have to say that any data that is made available would need to
                be done with almost no limitation, as is Retrosheet and baseball-
                databank (i.e., cite the source). Anything else would be a recipe for
                disaster.

                Tom
              • dsreyn
                I believe the Lahman / Forman team is working on a hockey site. http://www.hockey-reference.com has been reserved by them for over a year, though it s just a
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 1, 2007
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                  I believe the Lahman / Forman team is working on a hockey site.
                  http://www.hockey-reference.com has been reserved by them for over a
                  year, though it's just a placeholder for now. Lahman apparently has a
                  hockey database of his own.

                  For what it's worth, there's another site that's been up at least a
                  year with a layout undoubtedly based on the sports-reference.com model
                  (though lacking most of the usual sports-reference.com bells and
                  whistles) at http://www.databasehockey.com (NHL only, with only the
                  basic stats).

                  Doug

                  --- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "tangotiger" <tangotiger@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > It is also possible that baseball-reference will eventually get into
                  > the hockey field (or some other site), be it either by buying out Ralph
                  > or Doug or going on its own. To that end, the sites that don't grow
                  > will end up being on the short-end.
                • Ralph Slate
                  ... On that note, do people actually LIKE the layout of the baseball-reference website? I ve used it on occasion, but I found it maddening to use. On another
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 1, 2007
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                    > I believe the Lahman / Forman team is working on a hockey site.
                    > http://www.hockey-reference.com <http://www.hockey-reference.com> has
                    > been reserved by them for over a
                    > year, though it's just a placeholder for now. Lahman apparently has a
                    > hockey database of his own.
                    >
                    > For what it's worth, there's another site that's been up at least a
                    > year with a layout undoubtedly based on the sports-reference.
                    >
                    > com model
                    > (though lacking most of the usual sports-reference.com bells and
                    > whistles) at http://www.databasehockey.com
                    > <http://www.databasehockey.com> (NHL only, with only the
                    > basic stats).
                    >
                    On that note, do people actually LIKE the layout of the
                    baseball-reference website? I've used it on occasion, but I found it
                    maddening to use.

                    On another note, there is another hockey stats database project,
                    developed independent from the other online sources.

                    http://www.bballsports.com/

                    That one is different because it is actually an online application that
                    does not allow you unfettered access to raw data, but gives you an
                    interface to query it. From what the site says, it only goes to 2004. I
                    suppose the problem with any such site is that there is a risk that they
                    will get discouraged and give up.

                    Ralph
                  • Tangotiger
                    ... What is so maddening about it? Speaking as both a programmer and end-user, it s fantastic. And I m not alone: http://tinyurl.com/32gvvt HockeyDB is
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 1, 2007
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                      --- Ralph Slate <slater@...> wrote:
                      > On that note, do people actually LIKE the layout of
                      > the
                      > baseball-reference website? I've used it on
                      > occasion, but I found it
                      > maddening to use.
                      >

                      What is so maddening about it? Speaking as both a
                      programmer and end-user, it's fantastic.

                      And I'm not alone:
                      http://tinyurl.com/32gvvt

                      HockeyDB is excellent too.

                      Tom

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                    • Ralph Slate
                      Tangotiger w ... I think it s the overabundance of abbreviations. I like the verbosity of showing that a player played for the Boston Bruins instead of BOS. I
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 1, 2007
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                        Tangotiger w
                        > What is so maddening about it? Speaking as both a
                        > programmer and end-user, it's fantastic.
                        I think it's the overabundance of abbreviations. I like the verbosity of
                        showing that a player played for the Boston Bruins instead of BOS. I
                        suppose that something has to give when there are 20+ items to report on
                        a line. I also don't like the "throw everything onto one page" concept,
                        I'd prefer to see data more categorized.

                        I do like the "similar player" function though. That's really cool. Too
                        bad the lack of hockey stats makes such automated comparisons virtually
                        impossible to make.

                        Ralph
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