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  • dsreyn
    In TH1, Billy Bell is listed with 6 games with MTL (1 G, 0 A, 0 PIM) and 17 with OTS (1 G, 2 A, 4 PIM) in 1921-22. In TH2, his OTS line has changed to 23
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 15, 2007
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      In TH1, Billy Bell is listed with 6 games with MTL (1 G, 0 A, 0 PIM)
      and 17 with OTS (1 G, 2 A, 4 PIM) in 1921-22. In TH2, his OTS line
      has changed to 23 games, with 2 G, 2 A, and 4 PIM. There is a
      transaction note indicating that he was transferred to Ottawa on
      January 6, 1922. I think it's fairly clear that they had it right in
      the first edition, and apparently printed his combined stats in place
      of the Ottawa stats. The 1921-22 season was 24 games long, and since
      Ottawa had already played 6 games when he was transferred, there's no
      way he could have played 23 games with Ottawa.

      TH1 lists Ganton Scott with 4 games for both TRS and HAM in 1923-24.
      In TH2, the number of games with HAM has changed to 8. This obviously
      could be a correction, but I'm suspicious that it's another case where
      combined statistics were inserted instead of the stats for one stint,
      so I'm sticking with the TH1 version.

      TH1 listed Charles Fortier as playing in the NHL in 1923-24 (his only
      NHL season). He was dropped from the register in TH2 (however, the
      introduction to the player registers makes no mention of this). The
      SIHR site still lists him as an NHL player. I'm keeping him in for now.

      Doug
    • forever1940
      wikipedia notes Fortier as a one-game NHL er. The legends of hockey [HHOF] site notes the same. Losthockey.com notes Charles Fortier Quite simply,
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 16, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        wikipedia notes Fortier as a one-game NHL'er. The legends of hockey
        [HHOF] site notes the same. Losthockey.com notes "Charles Fortier
        Quite simply, absolutely nothing is known about this guy. That's
        right. No source lists anything about this guy. Not his birthdate,
        size, or hockey background. All we know for sure is that he
        apparently dressed for the Montreal Canadiens for a game during the
        1923-24 season. His name lies on the official game sheet for a game
        that season. It can only be assumed that Fortier was a local at the
        right place at the right time - an emergency addition to the lineup
        due to injury or illness. Again, that's just an assumption. Its not
        even known what position the guy played. However Zander Hollander's
        Encyclopedia of Hockey lists him as a forward.
        (written by Joe Pelletier) "



        --- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > In TH1, Billy Bell is listed with 6 games with MTL (1 G, 0 A, 0
        PIM)
        > and 17 with OTS (1 G, 2 A, 4 PIM) in 1921-22. In TH2, his OTS line
        > has changed to 23 games, with 2 G, 2 A, and 4 PIM. There is a
        > transaction note indicating that he was transferred to Ottawa on
        > January 6, 1922. I think it's fairly clear that they had it right
        in
        > the first edition, and apparently printed his combined stats in
        place
        > of the Ottawa stats. The 1921-22 season was 24 games long, and
        since
        > Ottawa had already played 6 games when he was transferred, there's
        no
        > way he could have played 23 games with Ottawa.
        >
        > TH1 lists Ganton Scott with 4 games for both TRS and HAM in 1923-
        24.
        > In TH2, the number of games with HAM has changed to 8. This
        obviously
        > could be a correction, but I'm suspicious that it's another case
        where
        > combined statistics were inserted instead of the stats for one
        stint,
        > so I'm sticking with the TH1 version.
        >
        > TH1 listed Charles Fortier as playing in the NHL in 1923-24 (his
        only
        > NHL season). He was dropped from the register in TH2 (however, the
        > introduction to the player registers makes no mention of this).
        The
        > SIHR site still lists him as an NHL player. I'm keeping him in
        for now.
        >
        > Doug
        >
      • James Milks
        Hi, I have done more research on Fortier since I posted that clip to losthockey. I am quite certain that Fortier never played. He was from Hull, Quebec. I
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 17, 2007
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          Hi,

          I have done more research on Fortier since I posted that clip to losthockey.

           

          I am quite certain that Fortier never played. He was from Hull , Quebec . I found a clip in a French language Ottawa paper dated December 15, 1923, which stated that he returned to Hull “Yesterday”, which would mean he arrived in Hull / Ottawa on December 14th. However, the game he is credited with having played was to be against Toronto on the 15th. Also, most paper made no mention of him whatsoever in the game summaries.

           

          Below is a clip from a discussion recently held on the SIHR e-list.

           


          To add a bit to what James wrote:

          Fortier participated in the whole training camp with the Canadiens. He was one of three rookies, the other two being Howie Morentz [sic] and Sylvio Mantha.

          On Dec. 3, the Ottawa French-language newspaper Le Droit wrote that Charles-Auguste Fortier, the “star from Hull ” had left to Grimsby to participate in the Canadiens’ training camp, for a one-week trial.

          On Dec. 11, under the header “Fortier will be under contract”, Le Droit writes:

          “The good old Charles-Auguste Fortier, the right winger from Hull who has shone for many years in the amateur ranks has decided to go to the professional ranks. Charlie spent last year in Grimsby , but he came back to Hull Sunday, and before the pleas of family and friends, he came close to abandoning any idea of becoming a big-leaguer.

          The temptation was still there, however. And that spirit is none other than Leo Dandurand, who made the best compliments about Fortier.

          Dandurand had last night at 6 o’clock a long phone conversation with Leo Gratton, the well-known athlete from Hull , who is responsible for Fortier’s success. He explained to him that Charlie’s play pleased him and that he would offer him a sufficient salary if he wanted to make the jump.

          Finally, Charlie made up his mind and, last night, at 11 o’clock, got on the Toronto express. He got to Grimsby this morning around 10 o’clock. About twenty members of the Association Notre-Dame were at the train station to wish him farewell.

          It’s been announced that Fortier has signed for a period of two years.”

          Two days later, on the 13th, there is another article in Le Droit, mentioning that Fortier is happy with the conditions that the Canadiens have offered him. It is mentioned that Fortier will no longer be seen in the local leagues, where his talents and abilities had gained him an enviable reputation. It’s also mentioned that Fortier will probably make his debut in the Canadiens’ first game, this coming Saturday.

          The 14th, there’s an article about the Canadiens practicing in Hamilton , and the recruits learning about the new forward pass rule.

          Then, the 15th, i.e. the day of the first game, as James mentioned, Le Droit announces that “Fortier comes back for good”. It says that Fortier “came back in our area yesterday [i.e. he’s in Ottawa the 14th, when the game in Toronto is the 15th] and, in all probability, will play in the amateur ranks this winter. Dandurand wanted to keep him at any cost, but Charlie was lonely and he wasn’t entirely happy with his new situation. It’s an acquisition for local sports, it is said that Fortier will play for the Canadien [of the ( Ottawa ) City League, presumably] this winter”.

          So why was Fortier’s name on the roster for Montreal ’s first game in Toronto ?

          I’m not an expert at this; I can think of a few reasons:

          1. Were the Canadiens required to have a minimum number of players in uniform? I doubt it, because they played their first six games with nine players (including the goalie), and only had ten players starting from the seventh game. Cameron joined the team for the 4th game, but Malone missed that one and the next two. On the 7th game, Malone was back, adding up to ten players.

          2. Could Dandurand have been so furious with Fortier, that he wrote him in the game sheet, to strip him of his amateur status? If so, it didn’t work, since Fortier apparently did keep playing as an amateur. This is actually the reason that the editors of Total Hockey 2 removed his entry, which had been present in the first edition. They figured that, even if he had dressed for the game, he certainly hadn't played, since he had retained his amateur status.

          3. On the contrary, could Dandurand have tried to be a nice guy and get him a game’s salary by putting him on the game sheet?

          None of the newspapers I checked (Globe & Mail, La Presse, La Patrie) list Fortier in the game summary, or mention him in any way (if only to indicate that he wasn’t there). La Presse specifies that the team had two recruits playing (Morenz and Mantha), so clearly Fortier wasn’t there. La Patrie, which had written numerous times about him as a promising rookie, is completely mum about his absence.

          The surprising thing is that, to this day, the Canadiens list Fortier as a member of the Stanley Cup-winning team of that season (on their media guide, their web site (http://www.canadien s.com/fre/ history/historyR edirect.cfm? sectionID= habsHistoryCups. cfm), etc.). His name is not on the Stanley Cup, but neither is Joe Malone’s, who is also listed, like Fortier, as a member of the Cup-winning team. At least Malone played 10 games that season.

           

          Hope that helps

           

          James

           


          From: hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of forever1940
          Sent: January 16, 2007 1:06 PM
          To: hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [hockey-databank] Re: More Total Hockey II issues

           

          wikipedia notes Fortier as a one-game NHL'er. The legends of hockey
          [HHOF] site notes the same. Losthockey.com notes "Charles Fortier
          Quite simply, absolutely nothing is known about this guy. That's
          right. No source lists anything about this guy. Not his birthdate,
          size, or hockey background. All we know for sure is that he
          apparently dressed for the Montreal Canadiens for a game during the
          1923-24 season. His name lies on the official game sheet for a game
          that season. It can only be assumed that Fortier was a local at the
          right place at the right time - an emergency addition to the lineup
          due to injury or illness. Again, that's just an assumption. Its not
          even known what position the guy played. However Zander Hollander's
          Encyclopedia of Hockey lists him as a forward.
          (written by Joe Pelletier) "

          --- In hockey-databank@ yahoogroups. com, "dsreyn" <dreynolds@. ..>
          wrote:

          >
          > In TH1, Billy Bell is listed with 6 games with MTL (1 G, 0 A, 0
          PIM)
          > and 17 with OTS (1 G, 2 A, 4 PIM) in 1921-22. In TH2, his OTS line
          > has changed to 23 games, with 2 G, 2 A, and 4 PIM. There is a
          > transaction note indicating that he was transferred to
          w:st="on">Ottawa on
          > January 6, 1922. I think it's fairly clear that they had it right
          in
          > the first edition, and apparently printed his combined stats in
          place
          > of the Ottawa
          stats. The 1921-22 season was 24 games long, and
          since
          > Ottawa had
          already played 6 games when he was transferred, there's
          no
          > way he could have played 23 games with
          w:st="on">Ottawa .
          >
          > TH1 lists Ganton Scott with 4 games for both TRS and HAM in 1923-
          24.
          > In TH2, the number of games with HAM has changed to 8. This
          obviously
          > could be a correction, but I'm suspicious that it's another case
          where
          > combined statistics were inserted instead of the stats for one
          stint,
          > so I'm sticking with the TH1 version.
          >
          > TH1 listed Charles Fortier as playing in the NHL in 1923-24 (his
          only
          > NHL season). He was dropped from the register in TH2 (however, the
          > introduction to the player registers makes no mention of this).
          The
          > SIHR site still lists him as an NHL player. I'm keeping him in
          for now.
          >
          > Doug
          >

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