Re: [hobbicast] Re: Is there Source of Mizzou Castable Refractory near York, PA or Baltimore MD area
- http://refwest.com/castable.aspx%c2%a0 http://www.hightemptools.com/faq.html#Satanite%c2%a0 The first link is to a refractory supplier in Colorado to give you an idea of what is available and prices. You can also calculate the shipping charges. It is a long way for you but at least you can see some of the most popular refractories. This was the only source online I could find that had a price for a full bag of Satanite. I live outside of Los Angeles and I could have driven 120 miles and picked it up. The higher local price and gas cost made it only a little more expensive to have
it shipped from Refractories West. I also saved half a day driving in heavy traffic. The second link explains how to coat the ceramic wool with Satanite. I believe cheaper Sairbond is also used for this but it tends to flake off. If you are going to coat it with expensive ITC-100 you don't want it flaking off. This site sells the Satanite in small amounts but it costs more per pound. Best I remember Satanite is rated at 3100 F so a thin layer (1/4") coated with ITC-100 should protect the ceramic wool. Further down the page you will find instructions for Mizzou, Kast-O-Lite 30 LI ans some ITC products. Ceramic wool has similar insulating properties to castable refractory of the same
temperature rating. Price wise the ceramic wool will fill about twice the space as castable for the same price. The ceramic wool needs to be coated. This is extra cost and time. Also the castable is solid and can make construction simpler sometimes. Or it could be the other way around. Satanite is actually called a mortar rather than a castable. I don't know what the differences are. Over the weekend I will post some PDF files about the properties of the various castables. Carl
From: unicornforge <d_einhorn@...>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 6:27 PM
Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Is there Source of Mizzou Castable Refractory near York, PA or Baltimore MD area
To answer the why Mizzou. My hobby for about 40 years has been researching metal working topics having to do with blacksmithing. So far my researches have resulted in my first book titled, "Civil War Blacksmithing". I am now researching and compiling information that I hope will eventually be another book that will serve as a resource for other information for blacksmiths in an easily readable manner.
Mizzou and Satanite are two commonly used castables to either build and/or line forges used in forge-welding. That is melting the surfaces of bars of metal so that when squeezed together merge into a single bar, resulting in patterns in the bar that is referred to by purists as pattern-welding and by the public as Damascus.
My ambition is to construct several forges comparing both, different construction techniques, and more than one burner to test for durability and time to reach temperature. These parameters would include at least one forge cast of 2 inch thick castable, versus at least one forge of ceramic wool coated with a layer of castable... both forges coated with a reflective surface of ITC-100 or similar coating.
Another parameter that I would like to test would be to compare more than one type of burner. The forges will be constructed with the ability to insert different burners.
I would greatly appreciate brand names and sources for your "lite" castables, and any other information you would kindly and generously be willing to share that you feel would benefit my researches.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Carl <carl_r2000@...> wrote:
> Your first message never showed up on my email. Maybe others also didn't receive it. I am on the other side of the country but I am curious why you want Mizzou Castable as opposed to one of the "lite" castables with the same 3000 degree temperature rating. The Mizzou is very dense and you will have to buy almost twice as many bags of it as "lite" castable to fill the same size furnace. Also the Mizzou is a poor insulator so you need twice the thickness as compared to the "lite". These two things added together means you need to buy almost 4 bags of Mizzou to replace one bag of 3000 degree "lite". Then there is the added time of the initial heat up. All the heavy Missou is a big heat sink. It will take much longer for the first melt because of that. The second melt should be about the same as with the "lite". There are applications where the Missou is needed. It is stronger than the "lite" and will take more abrasion and some harsher chemical
> environments. If that is why you are using the Missou I would use one inch of Missou next to the flame with the "lite" insulating castable behind that. Check with the pottery suppliers in your area. They often carry a limited supply of castable for building kilns. Carl
> From: unicornforge <d_einhorn@...>
> To: email@example.com
> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 3:24 PM
> Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Is there Source of Mizzou Castable Refractory near York, PA or Baltimore MD area
> Is there anyone else on this forum?
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "unicornforge" <d_einhorn@> wrote:
> > Does anyone know of a source of Mizzou Castable Refractory near the York, PA or Baltimore MD areas? The manufacturer's web site shows that they are in Philadelphia, PA. I am hoping to find a distributor within driving distance of York Pennsylvania so as to avoid massive shipping costs.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Recently someone on one of the casting groups commented that there was no such thing as a cement that can have all of the water baked out of it; I believe this was done in defense of the use of Portland cement in a homemade castable refractory. The official answer would be that the chemically locked portion of water in lime based cement cannot be baked out, but the chemically locked portion of water in refractory cements can be. I have always accepted this official version as the only reality...in the past. The limiting factors on "baking out all the water" are that the refractory must be taken to yellow heat in the first place, and that over time, water content can recollect in refractory if you're not careful to seal the refractory surfaces against water vapor in ambient air.
However, truth of any kind is seldom found effortlessly; including technical "truths". I suspect that a healthy debate, with both sides airing their views, might adjust what the majority of us accept as practical reality--to our mutual profit; this could be important for people wanting to make insulating refractories as secondary layers. Homemade refractory as an insulating secondary layer might be quite forgiving of official standards; standards useful for hot-face layers may constitute a waste of money in secondary refractory layers.
While casually dismissing the Portland cement idea, I have noted both resentment, and a strong hint of "I'll match your official facts with personal experience" in passing (heated) comments from the other side of this issue. Isn't it time they had a FAIR hearing; something open minded, maybe?