Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Alloying

Expand Messages
  • Wonk
    I ve found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don t raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 27, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!

      Wonk

      --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" <michael.a.porter@...> wrote:
      >
      > The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.
      >
      > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool <owly@> wrote:
      > >
      > > There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has
      > > quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper
      > > into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a
      > > considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed
      > > with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into
      > > these, the melt temp must be raised.............
      > >
      > > Howard
    • StoneTool
      Interesting............... What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Interesting...............
        What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a
        lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt
        temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow
        the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That
        seems a bit counter intuitive........

        Howard


        On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:
        > I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!
        >
        > Wonk
        >
        > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter"<michael.a.porter@...> wrote:
        >> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.
        >>
        >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool<owly@> wrote:
        >>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has
        >>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper
        >>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a
        >>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed
        >>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into
        >>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............
        >>>
        >>> Howard
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
        > this list does not accept attachments.
        >
        > Files area and list services are at:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
        >
        > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
        > check out these two affiliated sites:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
        >
        > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
        > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
        >
        > List Owner:
        > owly@...
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • mikey98118
        Howard, The difference is that the depressive elements (lower melting temperature metals) become part of a crystalline structure, as the liquid alloy they
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Howard,
          The difference is that the depressive elements (lower melting temperature metals) become part of a crystalline structure, as the liquid alloy they helped form cools. When the depressive elements first liquefy, they get busy dissolving elements of higher temperature. The new crystalline matrix is an alloy of all those elements, with completely different physical properties than any of its elemental constituents, including a higher melting range. Unfortunately, intuition has nothing to do with metallurgy; physics does :-(
          Mikey

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: StoneTool <owly@...>
          To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:26:54 -0000 (UTC)
          Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying





















          Interesting...............


          What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a


          lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt


          temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow


          the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That


          seems a bit counter intuitive........



          Howard



          On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:


          > I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!


          >


          > Wonk


          >


          > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" wrote:


          >> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.


          >>


          >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool wrote:


          >>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has


          >>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper


          >>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a


          >>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed


          >>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into


          >>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............


          >>>


          >>> Howard


          >


          >


          >


          > ------------------------------------


          >


          > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues


          > this list does not accept attachments.


          >


          > Files area and list services are at:


          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast


          >


          > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions


          > check out these two affiliated sites:


          > sandcrabs" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs


          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1


          >


          > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply


          > budgetcastingsupply.com/" target=_blank>http://budgetcastingsupply.com/


          >


          > List Owner:


          > owly@...


          >


          > Yahoo! Groups Links


          >


          >


          >


          >










          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Wonk
          Probably best explained after you have melted and tried to alloy! The magic of chemistry is revealed without all the mystery of Merlin and the pointy hat
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Probably best explained after you have melted and tried to alloy! The magic of chemistry is revealed without all the mystery of Merlin and the pointy hat crowd. You don't have to melt a ton of metal when making a trial alloy, remembering that some of the stuff that is in commercial alloys is not practical for the home hobby shop.

            Wonk

            --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote:
            >
            > Howard,
            > The difference is that the depressive elements (lower melting temperature metals) become part of a crystalline structure, as the liquid alloy they helped form cools. When the depressive elements first liquefy, they get busy dissolving elements of higher temperature. The new crystalline matrix is an alloy of all those elements, with completely different physical properties than any of its elemental constituents, including a higher melting range. Unfortunately, intuition has nothing to do with metallurgy; physics does :-(
            > Mikey
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: StoneTool <owly@...>
            > To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:26:54 -0000 (UTC)
            > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Interesting...............
            >
            >
            > What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a
            >
            >
            > lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt
            >
            >
            > temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow
            >
            >
            > the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That
            >
            >
            > seems a bit counter intuitive........
            >
            >
            >
            > Howard
            >
            >
            >
            > On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:
            >
            >
            > > I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > > Wonk
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" wrote:
            >
            >
            > >> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.
            >
            >
            > >>
            >
            >
            > >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool wrote:
            >
            >
            > >>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has
            >
            >
            > >>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper
            >
            >
            > >>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a
            >
            >
            > >>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed
            >
            >
            > >>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into
            >
            >
            > >>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............
            >
            >
            > >>>
            >
            >
            > >>> Howard
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > > ------------------------------------
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
            >
            >
            > > this list does not accept attachments.
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > > Files area and list services are at:
            >
            >
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
            >
            >
            > > check out these two affiliated sites:
            >
            >
            > > sandcrabs" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
            >
            >
            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
            >
            >
            > > budgetcastingsupply.com/" target=_blank>http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > > List Owner:
            >
            >
            > > owly@...
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Wonk
            Here is a reference site for some of the alloy formulas, Yes not everything on the net is true but you need to start someplace!
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Here is a reference site for some of the alloy formulas, Yes not everything on the net is true but you need to start someplace!

              <http://chestofbooks.com/reference/Henley-s-20th-Century-Formulas-Recipes-Processes-Vol1/>

              --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Wonk" <tiwonk@...> wrote:
              >
              > Probably best explained after you have melted and tried to alloy! The magic of chemistry is revealed without all the mystery of Merlin and the pointy hat crowd. You don't have to melt a ton of metal when making a trial alloy, remembering that some of the stuff that is in commercial alloys is not practical for the home hobby shop.
              >
              > Wonk
              >
            • Nelson Collar
              Howard It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Howard
                It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no unmelted pieces in it, place the copper (I use from 6 to 10% copper) it will melt almost on contact. When it comes to remelting it, it does not act like the aluminum you melted in the first melt. The copper makes a very hard set and is a lot nicer to machine.
                Nelson Collar 


                ________________________________
                From: StoneTool <owly@...>
                To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:26 PM
                Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                 
                Interesting...............
                What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a
                lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt
                temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow
                the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That
                seems a bit counter intuitive........

                Howard

                On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:
                > I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!
                >
                > Wonk
                >
                > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" wrote:
                >> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.
                >>
                >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool wrote:
                >>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has
                >>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper
                >>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a
                >>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed
                >>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into
                >>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............
                >>>
                >>> Howard
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                > this list does not accept attachments.
                >
                > Files area and list services are at:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                >
                > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                > check out these two affiliated sites:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                >
                > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                >
                > List Owner:
                > owly@...
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Robert Broughton
                There are different types of bronzes with differing levels of copper and some other metal or silicon content. However on all of them, the copper is the
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  There are different types of bronzes with differing levels of copper and some other metal or silicon content. However on all of them, the copper is the predominate (over 60 and usually over 90 percent) component in the alloy mix. If you are only adding 6 to 10% copper, it would be more of an aluminum alloy than a bronze. However, if you switched it around so you had 90% copper and 10 percent Al, then it would be an aluminum bronze.
                  Bob


                  ________________________________
                  From: Nelson Collar <nel2lar@...>
                  To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:20 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                   
                  Howard
                  It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no unmelted pieces in it, place the copper (I use from 6 to 10% copper) it will melt almost on contact. When it comes to remelting it, it does not act like the aluminum you melted in the first melt. The copper makes a very hard set and is a lot nicer to machine.
                  Nelson Collar 

                  ________________________________
                  From: StoneTool owly@...>
                  To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:26 PM
                  Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                   
                  Interesting...............
                  What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a
                  lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt
                  temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow
                  the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That
                  seems a bit counter intuitive........

                  Howard

                  On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:
                  > I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!
                  >
                  > Wonk
                  >
                  > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" wrote:
                  >> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.
                  >>
                  >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool wrote:
                  >>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has
                  >>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper
                  >>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a
                  >>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed
                  >>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into
                  >>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............
                  >>>
                  >>> Howard
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                  > this list does not accept attachments.
                  >
                  > Files area and list services are at:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                  >
                  > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                  > check out these two affiliated sites:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                  >
                  > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                  > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                  >
                  > List Owner:
                  > owly@...
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nelson Collar
                  With all the trying to come up with the perfect alloy, why not just harden the castings.  Nelson Collar ________________________________ From: Wonk
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    With all the trying to come up with the perfect alloy, why not just harden the castings. 
                    Nelson Collar


                    ________________________________
                    From: Wonk <tiwonk@...>
                    To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 7:43 PM
                    Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                     
                    Probably best explained after you have melted and tried to alloy! The magic of chemistry is revealed without all the mystery of Merlin and the pointy hat crowd. You don't have to melt a ton of metal when making a trial alloy, remembering that some of the stuff that is in commercial alloys is not practical for the home hobby shop.

                    Wonk

                    --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Howard,
                    > The difference is that the depressive elements (lower melting temperature metals) become part of a crystalline structure, as the liquid alloy they helped form cools. When the depressive elements first liquefy, they get busy dissolving elements of higher temperature. The new crystalline matrix is an alloy of all those elements, with completely different physical properties than any of its elemental constituents, including a higher melting range. Unfortunately, intuition has nothing to do with metallurgy; physics does :-(
                    > Mikey
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: StoneTool
                    > To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:26:54 -0000 (UTC)
                    > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Interesting...............
                    >
                    >
                    > What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a
                    >
                    >
                    > lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt
                    >
                    >
                    > temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow
                    >
                    >
                    > the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That
                    >
                    >
                    > seems a bit counter intuitive........
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Howard
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > > I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Wonk
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > >> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.
                    >
                    >
                    > >>
                    >
                    >
                    > >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............
                    >
                    >
                    > >>>
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> Howard
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                    >
                    >
                    > > this list does not accept attachments.
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Files area and list services are at:
                    >
                    >
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                    >
                    >
                    > > check out these two affiliated sites:
                    >
                    >
                    > > sandcrabs" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                    >
                    >
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                    >
                    >
                    > > budgetcastingsupply.com/" target=_blank>http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > List Owner:
                    >
                    >
                    > > owly@...
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nelson Collar
                    No because the aluminum does not have the same properties that tin has. Aluminum is nothing but dirt-sand. Nelson Collar ________________________________ From:
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      No because the aluminum does not have the same properties that tin has. Aluminum is nothing but dirt-sand.
                      Nelson Collar


                      ________________________________
                      From: Robert Broughton <r.broughton@...>
                      To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:43 PM
                      Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                       
                      There are different types of bronzes with differing levels of copper and some other metal or silicon content. However on all of them, the copper is the predominate (over 60 and usually over 90 percent) component in the alloy mix. If you are only adding 6 to 10% copper, it would be more of an aluminum alloy than a bronze. However, if you switched it around so you had 90% copper and 10 percent Al, then it would be an aluminum bronze.
                      Bob

                      ________________________________
                      From: Nelson Collar nel2lar@...>
                      To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:20 PM
                      Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                       
                      Howard
                      It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no unmelted pieces in it, place the copper (I use from 6 to 10% copper) it will melt almost on contact. When it comes to remelting it, it does not act like the aluminum you melted in the first melt. The copper makes a very hard set and is a lot nicer to machine.
                      Nelson Collar 

                      ________________________________
                      From: StoneTool owly@...>
                      To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:26 PM
                      Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying

                       
                      Interesting...............
                      What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a
                      lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt
                      temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow
                      the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That
                      seems a bit counter intuitive........

                      Howard

                      On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:
                      > I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!
                      >
                      > Wonk
                      >
                      > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" wrote:
                      >> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.
                      >>
                      >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool wrote:
                      >>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has
                      >>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper
                      >>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a
                      >>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed
                      >>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into
                      >>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............
                      >>>
                      >>> Howard
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                      > this list does not accept attachments.
                      >
                      > Files area and list services are at:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                      >
                      > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                      > check out these two affiliated sites:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                      >
                      > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                      > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                      >
                      > List Owner:
                      > owly@...
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Matthew Tinker
                      Hi, http://www.thefreedictionary.com/aluminium+bronze  regards, Matthew Matthew TINKER CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi,

                        http://www.thefreedictionary.com/aluminium+bronze

                         regards, Matthew



                        Matthew TINKER
                        CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                        http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519


                        ________________________________
                        From: Nelson Collar <nel2lar@...>
                        To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, 1 March 2013, 5:10
                        Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                         
                        No because the aluminum does not have the same properties that tin has. Aluminum is nothing but dirt-sand.
                        Nelson Collar

                        ________________________________
                        From: Robert Broughton r.broughton@...>
                        To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:43 PM
                        Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                         
                        There are different types of bronzes with differing levels of copper and some other metal or silicon content. However on all of them, the copper is the predominate (over 60 and usually over 90 percent) component in the alloy mix. If you are only adding 6 to 10% copper, it would be more of an aluminum alloy than a bronze. However, if you switched it around so you had 90% copper and 10 percent Al, then it would be an aluminum bronze.
                        Bob

                        ________________________________
                        From: Nelson Collar nel2lar@...>
                        To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.comhobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:20 PM
                        Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying

                         
                        Howard
                        It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no unmelted pieces in it, place the copper (I use from 6 to 10% copper) it will melt almost on contact. When it comes to remelting it, it does not act like the aluminum you melted in the first melt. The copper makes a very hard set and is a lot nicer to machine.
                        Nelson Collar 

                        ________________________________
                        From: StoneTool owly@...>
                        To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:26 PM
                        Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying

                         
                        Interesting...............
                        What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a
                        lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt
                        temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow
                        the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That
                        seems a bit counter intuitive........

                        Howard

                        On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:
                        > I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!
                        >
                        > Wonk
                        >
                        > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" wrote:
                        >> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.
                        >>
                        >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool wrote:
                        >>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has
                        >>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper
                        >>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a
                        >>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed
                        >>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into
                        >>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............
                        >>>
                        >>> Howard
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                        > this list does not accept attachments.
                        >
                        > Files area and list services are at:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                        >
                        > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                        > check out these two affiliated sites:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                        >
                        > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                        > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                        >
                        > List Owner:
                        > owly@...
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • mikey98118
                        Howard, That s an interesting supposition. At some point covers a lot of ground; I think you d need to run an experiment to prove or disprove. An experiment,
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 1, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Howard,
                          That's an interesting supposition. "At some point" covers a lot of ground; I think you'd need to run an experiment to prove or disprove. An experiment, would probably be cheaper than asking a metallurgist.
                          Mikey

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: StoneTool <owly@...>
                          To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 16:01:05 -0000 (UTC)
                          Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying





















                          Nelson:


                          Aluminum bronze is an alloy I am familiar with, and excellent


                          bearing material with good useful properties. My question here is, if


                          you keep feeding copper into molten aluminum without significantly


                          raising the melt temperature, at some point your alloy will become a


                          copper alloy rather than an aluminum alloy.... Presumably as you pass


                          50%. I find it difficult to believe that the melt temp wouldn't have


                          to increase considerably as this point is approached and passed........



                          Howard



                          On 02/28/2013 09:10 PM, Nelson Collar wrote:


                          > No because the aluminum does not have the same properties that tin has. Aluminum is nothing but dirt-sand.


                          > Nelson Collar


                          >


                          >


                          > ________________________________


                          > From: Robert Broughtonbroughton%40rocketmail.com" target=_blank>r.broughton@...>


                          > To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.comhobbicast@yahoogroups.com>


                          > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:43 PM


                          > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                          >


                          >


                          >


                          > There are different types of bronzes with differing levels of copper and some other metal or silicon content. However on all of them, the copper is the predominate (over 60 and usually over 90 percent) component in the alloy mix. If you are only adding 6 to 10% copper, it would be more of an aluminum alloy than a bronze. However, if you switched it around so you had 90% copper and 10 percent Al, then it would be an aluminum bronze.


                          > Bob


                          >


                          > ________________________________


                          > From: Nelson Collar nel2lar@...>


                          > To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.comhobbicast@yahoogroups.com>


                          > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:20 PM


                          > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                          >


                          >


                          >


                          > Howard


                          > It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no unmelted pieces in it, place the copper (I use from 6 to 10% copper) it will melt almost on contact. When it comes to remelting it, it does not act like the aluminum you melted in the first melt. The copper makes a very hard set and is a lot nicer to machine.


                          > Nelson Collar


                          >


                          > ________________________________


                          > From: StoneTool owly@...>


                          > To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com


                          > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:26 PM


                          > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                          >


                          >


                          > Interesting...............


                          > What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a


                          > lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt


                          > temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow


                          > the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That


                          > seems a bit counter intuitive........


                          >


                          > Howard


                          >


                          > On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:


                          >> I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!


                          >>


                          >> Wonk


                          >>


                          >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" wrote:


                          >>> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.


                          >>>


                          >>> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool wrote:


                          >>>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has


                          >>>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper


                          >>>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a


                          >>>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed


                          >>>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into


                          >>>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............


                          >>>>


                          >>>> Howard


                          >>


                          >>


                          >> ------------------------------------


                          >>


                          >> For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues


                          >> this list does not accept attachments.


                          >>


                          >> Files area and list services are at:


                          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast


                          >>


                          >> For additional files and photos and off topic discussions


                          >> check out these two affiliated sites:


                          >> sandcrabs" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs


                          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1


                          >>


                          >> Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply


                          >> budgetcastingsupply.com/" target=_blank>http://budgetcastingsupply.com/


                          >>


                          >> List Owner:


                          >> owly@...


                          >>


                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links


                          >>


                          >>


                          >>


                          >>


                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                          >


                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                          >


                          >


                          >


                          >


                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                          >


                          >


                          >


                          > ------------------------------------


                          >


                          > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues


                          > this list does not accept attachments.


                          >


                          > Files area and list services are at:


                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast


                          >


                          > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions


                          > check out these two affiliated sites:


                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs


                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1


                          >


                          > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply


                          > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/


                          >


                          > List Owner:


                          > owly@...


                          >


                          > Yahoo! Groups Links


                          >


                          >


                          >


                          >










                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • StoneTool
                          Nelson: Aluminum bronze is an alloy I am familiar with, and excellent bearing material with good useful properties. My question here is, if you keep feeding
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 1, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Nelson:
                            Aluminum bronze is an alloy I am familiar with, and excellent
                            bearing material with good useful properties. My question here is, if
                            you keep feeding copper into molten aluminum without significantly
                            raising the melt temperature, at some point your alloy will become a
                            copper alloy rather than an aluminum alloy.... Presumably as you pass
                            50%. I find it difficult to believe that the melt temp wouldn't have
                            to increase considerably as this point is approached and passed........

                            Howard

                            On 02/28/2013 09:10 PM, Nelson Collar wrote:
                            > No because the aluminum does not have the same properties that tin has. Aluminum is nothing but dirt-sand.
                            > Nelson Collar
                            >
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Robert Broughton<r.broughton@...>
                            > To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com"<hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:43 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > There are different types of bronzes with differing levels of copper and some other metal or silicon content. However on all of them, the copper is the predominate (over 60 and usually over 90 percent) component in the alloy mix. If you are only adding 6 to 10% copper, it would be more of an aluminum alloy than a bronze. However, if you switched it around so you had 90% copper and 10 percent Al, then it would be an aluminum bronze.
                            > Bob
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: Nelson Collar nel2lar@...>
                            > To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:20 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Howard
                            > It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no unmelted pieces in it, place the copper (I use from 6 to 10% copper) it will melt almost on contact. When it comes to remelting it, it does not act like the aluminum you melted in the first melt. The copper makes a very hard set and is a lot nicer to machine.
                            > Nelson Collar
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            > From: StoneTool owly@...>
                            > To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:26 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                            >
                            >
                            > Interesting...............
                            > What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a
                            > lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt
                            > temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow
                            > the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That
                            > seems a bit counter intuitive........
                            >
                            > Howard
                            >
                            > On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:
                            >> I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!
                            >>
                            >> Wonk
                            >>
                            >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" wrote:
                            >>> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.
                            >>>
                            >>> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool wrote:
                            >>>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has
                            >>>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper
                            >>>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a
                            >>>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed
                            >>>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into
                            >>>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............
                            >>>>
                            >>>> Howard
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                            >> this list does not accept attachments.
                            >>
                            >> Files area and list services are at:
                            >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                            >>
                            >> For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                            >> check out these two affiliated sites:
                            >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                            >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                            >>
                            >> Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                            >> http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                            >>
                            >> List Owner:
                            >> owly@...
                            >>
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                            > this list does not accept attachments.
                            >
                            > Files area and list services are at:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                            >
                            > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                            > check out these two affiliated sites:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                            >
                            > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                            > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                            >
                            > List Owner:
                            > owly@...
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • tmoranwms
                            You can find the phase diagram here:
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 1, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              You can find the phase diagram here:
                              http://antipasto.union.edu/engineering/Archives/SeniorProjects/2006/ME.2006/agostina/photos%20from%20project/photopages/photo01.htm
                              On the left is 100% Al, on the right, 100% Cu.

                              If you follow the topmost curve, bounding the liquid area, you are following the liquidus, meaning that, above that temperature, everything is liquid. The line just below that curve is the solidus (melting point), where one phase (a solid solution or eutectic) melts, and acts as a solvent to dissolve progressively more of the higher-melting phases, until everything goes into solution (at the liquidus). So if you have a 10% Cu alloy (over on the left), starting from room temperature, it's composed of two things: nearly pure aluminum, and theta (Al2Cu, a brittle intermetallic phase). As temperature rises, it passes 548C, and a little bit melts. Now in this triangular region, there is no theta (it formed a solution with some of the aluminum), only aluminum crystals floating in solution. It has a goopy, slushy consistency. Finally, at, oh, 640C or so, the whole thing is molten.

                              If you made a 50% master alloy, it would be almost pure theta, which is very brittle, and has an acicular crystal habit (the crystals that form on top of the ingot, as it cools, which have a distinctive rodlike appearance, not like the angular lumpy crystals pure 1099 aluminum makes on freezing).

                              As copper content continues to rise (or aluminum falls), melting point rises steeply as a number of higher intermetallic phases form. The extent of these intermetallics, and their stability, is complicated, and since they are all very brittle, they are of no commercial importance. (Regarding stability, there's a large beta region around 88% Cu and above 567C, but it doesn't remain stable, we say it decomposes below 567C into other stuff. Alpha 2 apparently re-forms at the same percentage, at much lower temperatures. It's the same proportion of atoms, yet there are two different crystal forms, and one range where neither is stable! Sometimes, chemistry is bizarre like this.)

                              Up past 92% Cu or so, a solid solution is formed, meaning aluminum is freely dissolved in the copper, whether liquid or solid. This is similar to brass, which is (for the most part) a solid solution between zinc and copper. Properties change slowly with respect to alloy in these forms, so for example, 10% zinc still looks kind of coppery, 20% looks golden, and 30% looks brassy. Aluminum is a stronger alloying agent in copper, so over the 5-10% aluminum range, color goes from coppery to gold to brass in an analogous way.

                              Aluminum bronzes are usually around 10% Al. This is on the edge of the solid solution, which means some intermetallics will be present. In small quantities, these hard components lock the crystal structure, hardening it, while reducing ductility (they're brittle!).

                              As for making alloys, copper dissolves in aluminum very easily, but getting it to make contact is the hard part. Both are coated in an oxide layer; submerging copper metal in an aluminum melt is only likely to make metal-liquid contact at a few points. Imagine dissolving a block of salt in water, except the salt was wrapped with duct tape. Not going to go very fast, right? If you had a solvent to disrupt that layer (for duct tape, paint stripper probably works well, but for metals, you need a flux), it would dissolve easily. Still, verifying that it's fully dissolved isn't as easy as looking inside the glass of water and seeing that all the salt dissolved. Better safe than sorry.

                              To make copper-aluminum master alloy, I suggest melting a sample of copper, then adding an equal weight of aluminum (preferably aluminum wire, which is 1099 alloy, or something similar). Either do it gradually so the temperature remains high (and everything remains molten), or add it all and bring it back up to temperature before pouring. Failure to remelt will likely result in a frozen heel of intermetallics -- not so handy for consistency, or for breaking things up later (some of those higher intermetallics, like gamma, may still be brittle, but they can be very strong!).

                              Tim

                              --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote:
                              >
                              > Howard,
                              > That's an interesting supposition. "At some point" covers a lot of ground; I think you'd need to run an experiment to prove or disprove. An experiment, would probably be cheaper than asking a metallurgist.
                              > Mikey
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: StoneTool <owly@...>
                              > To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 16:01:05 -0000 (UTC)
                              > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Nelson:
                              >
                              >
                              > Aluminum bronze is an alloy I am familiar with, and excellent
                              >
                              >
                              > bearing material with good useful properties. My question here is, if
                              >
                              >
                              > you keep feeding copper into molten aluminum without significantly
                              >
                              >
                              > raising the melt temperature, at some point your alloy will become a
                              >
                              >
                              > copper alloy rather than an aluminum alloy.... Presumably as you pass
                              >
                              >
                              > 50%. I find it difficult to believe that the melt temp wouldn't have
                              >
                              >
                              > to increase considerably as this point is approached and passed........
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Howard
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > On 02/28/2013 09:10 PM, Nelson Collar wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > > No because the aluminum does not have the same properties that tin has. Aluminum is nothing but dirt-sand.
                              >
                              >
                              > > Nelson Collar
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > ________________________________
                              >
                              >
                              > > From: Robert Broughtonbroughton%40rocketmail.com" target=_blank>r.broughton@...>
                              >
                              >
                              > > To: "hobbicast@...@yahoogroups.com>
                              >
                              >
                              > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:43 PM
                              >
                              >
                              > > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > There are different types of bronzes with differing levels of copper and some other metal or silicon content. However on all of them, the copper is the predominate (over 60 and usually over 90 percent) component in the alloy mix. If you are only adding 6 to 10% copper, it would be more of an aluminum alloy than a bronze. However, if you switched it around so you had 90% copper and 10 percent Al, then it would be an aluminum bronze.
                              >
                              >
                              > > Bob
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > ________________________________
                              >
                              >
                              > > From: Nelson Collar nel2lar@...>
                              >
                              >
                              > > To: "hobbicast@...@yahoogroups.com>
                              >
                              >
                              > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:20 PM
                              >
                              >
                              > > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > > Howard
                              >
                              >
                              > > It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no unmelted pieces in it, place the copper (I use from 6 to 10% copper) it will melt almost on contact. When it comes to remelting it, it does not act like the aluminum you melted in the first melt. The copper makes a very hard set and is a lot nicer to machine.
                              >
                              >
                              > > Nelson Collar
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                            • StoneTool
                              Mikey You are right of course........... I assumed that members had tried this kind of thing. Putting a bit of copper into an aluminum melt 1-10% is a far
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 1, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Mikey
                                You are right of course........... I assumed that members had tried
                                this kind of thing. Putting a bit of copper into an aluminum melt
                                1-10% is a far different thing from trying to dissolve 70% copper into a
                                crucible of molten aluminum a bit at a time. It is after all the
                                aluminum that is dissolving the copper into solution. There has to be
                                a saturation point. Normally as I understand it you melt the
                                primary metal and introduce the alloying components. Once copper
                                exceeds 50% you are dealing with a copper alloy, not an aluminum alloy.


                                Howard

                                On 03/01/2013 08:53 AM, michael.a.porter@... wrote:
                                > Howard,
                                > That's an interesting supposition. "At some point" covers a lot of ground; I think you'd need to run an experiment to prove or disprove. An experiment, would probably be cheaper than asking a metallurgist.
                                > Mikey
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: StoneTool<owly@...>
                                > To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 16:01:05 -0000 (UTC)
                                > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Nelson:
                                >
                                >
                                > Aluminum bronze is an alloy I am familiar with, and excellent
                                >
                                >
                                > bearing material with good useful properties. My question here is, if
                                >
                                >
                                > you keep feeding copper into molten aluminum without significantly
                                >
                                >
                                > raising the melt temperature, at some point your alloy will become a
                                >
                                >
                                > copper alloy rather than an aluminum alloy.... Presumably as you pass
                                >
                                >
                                > 50%. I find it difficult to believe that the melt temp wouldn't have
                                >
                                >
                                > to increase considerably as this point is approached and passed........
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Howard
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On 02/28/2013 09:10 PM, Nelson Collar wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >> No because the aluminum does not have the same properties that tin has. Aluminum is nothing but dirt-sand.
                                >
                                >> Nelson Collar
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >> ________________________________
                                >
                                >> From: Robert Broughtonbroughton%40rocketmail.com" target=_blank>r.broughton@...>
                                >
                                >> To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.comhobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                                >
                                >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:43 PM
                                >
                                >> Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> There are different types of bronzes with differing levels of copper and some other metal or silicon content. However on all of them, the copper is the predominate (over 60 and usually over 90 percent) component in the alloy mix. If you are only adding 6 to 10% copper, it would be more of an aluminum alloy than a bronze. However, if you switched it around so you had 90% copper and 10 percent Al, then it would be an aluminum bronze.
                                >
                                >> Bob
                                >
                                >
                                >> ________________________________
                                >
                                >> From: Nelson Collar nel2lar@...>
                                >
                                >> To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.comhobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                                >
                                >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:20 PM
                                >
                                >> Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> Howard
                                >
                                >> It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no unmelted pieces in it, place the copper (I use from 6 to 10% copper) it will melt almost on contact. When it comes to remelting it, it does not act like the aluminum you melted in the first melt. The copper makes a very hard set and is a lot nicer to machine.
                                >
                                >> Nelson Collar
                                >
                                >
                                >> ________________________________
                                >
                                >> From: StoneTool owly@...>
                                >
                                >> To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:26 PM
                                >
                                >> Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                                >
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> Interesting...............
                                >
                                >> What I am reading is that feeding copper into ZA12, you can put a
                                >
                                >> lot of copper into the melt and achieve a bronze of sorts, but the melt
                                >
                                >> temp will not go up until you solidify and try to remelt. That somehow
                                >
                                >> the metal does not become a true "alloy" until it has cooled. That
                                >
                                >> seems a bit counter intuitive........
                                >
                                >
                                >> Howard
                                >
                                >
                                >> On 02/27/2013 05:08 PM, Wonk wrote:
                                >
                                >>> I've found when I alloy ZA-12 for example that I don't raise the temperature to melt the higher temp metals. I usually melt the zinc and hold it just below the temperature where it starts smoking off the add the aluminum and finally the copper. The higher temp metals must be fed slowly or you will freeze the lower temp metal, then yes you do have to raise the temp to bring it to liquid again. Actually this is true with the base metal also. I try to start with a puddle of the base metal and add slowly until the new ingot or charge is melted. The same goes for brass or bronze. I have a contact temperature probe that I dip into the liquid metal, which is fairly accurate, although I don't always use it. Much like grandma I add things by feel or look, which is often close enough for hobby work!
                                >
                                >
                                >>> Wonk
                                >
                                >
                                >>> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Porter" wrote:
                                >
                                >>>> The lower temp metals dissolve the higher temp as indicated, and can be forced back out of solution--but at much higher temperatures. Which is why they come uout as gases; not liquids.
                                >
                                >
                                >>>> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool wrote:
                                >
                                >>>>> There have to be absorption limits related to temp. Tin for example has
                                >
                                >>>>> quite a low melt point as does zinc, yet the result of taking copper
                                >
                                >>>>> into solution is red brass (bronze) or yellow brass. Both have a
                                >
                                >>>>> considerably higher melt temp than the zinc or tin they are alloyed
                                >
                                >>>>> with. That says to me that as you melt more and more copper into
                                >
                                >>>>> these, the melt temp must be raised.............
                                >
                                >
                                >>>>> Howard
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >>> ------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                >>> For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                                >
                                >>> this list does not accept attachments.
                                >
                                >
                                >>> Files area and list services are at:
                                >
                                >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                >
                                >
                                >>> For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                                >
                                >>> check out these two affiliated sites:
                                >
                                >>> sandcrabs" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                >
                                >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                                >
                                >
                                >>> Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                >
                                >>> budgetcastingsupply.com/" target=_blank>http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                >
                                >
                                >>> List Owner:
                                >
                                >>> owly@...
                                >
                                >
                                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >> ------------------------------------
                                >
                                >
                                >> For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                                >
                                >> this list does not accept attachments.
                                >
                                >
                                >> Files area and list services are at:
                                >
                                >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                >
                                >
                                >> For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                                >
                                >> check out these two affiliated sites:
                                >
                                >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                >
                                >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                                >
                                >
                                >> Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                >
                                >> http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                >
                                >
                                >> List Owner:
                                >
                                >> owly@...
                                >
                                >
                                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                                > this list does not accept attachments.
                                >
                                > Files area and list services are at:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                >
                                > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                                > check out these two affiliated sites:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                                >
                                > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                >
                                > List Owner:
                                > owly@...
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • StoneTool
                                Thanks Tim: The chart was rather interesting, the theory of eutectics sounds really rather complex............... Howard
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 1, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks Tim:
                                  The chart was rather interesting, the theory of eutectics sounds
                                  really rather complex...............

                                  Howard

                                  On 03/01/2013 10:10 AM, tmoranwms wrote:
                                  > You can find the phase diagram here:
                                  > http://antipasto.union.edu/engineering/Archives/SeniorProjects/2006/ME.2006/agostina/photos%20from%20project/photopages/photo01.htm
                                  > On the left is 100% Al, on the right, 100% Cu.
                                  >
                                  > If you follow the topmost curve, bounding the liquid area, you are following the liquidus, meaning that, above that temperature, everything is liquid. The line just below that curve is the solidus (melting point), where one phase (a solid solution or eutectic) melts, and acts as a solvent to dissolve progressively more of the higher-melting phases, until everything goes into solution (at the liquidus). So if you have a 10% Cu alloy (over on the left), starting from room temperature, it's composed of two things: nearly pure aluminum, and theta (Al2Cu, a brittle intermetallic phase). As temperature rises, it passes 548C, and a little bit melts. Now in this triangular region, there is no theta (it formed a solution with some of the aluminum), only aluminum crystals floating in solution. It has a goopy, slushy consistency. Finally, at, oh, 640C or so, the whole thing is molten.
                                  >
                                  > If you made a 50% master alloy, it would be almost pure theta, which is very brittle, and has an acicular crystal habit (the crystals that form on top of the ingot, as it cools, which have a distinctive rodlike appearance, not like the angular lumpy crystals pure 1099 aluminum makes on freezing).
                                  >
                                  > As copper content continues to rise (or aluminum falls), melting point rises steeply as a number of higher intermetallic phases form. The extent of these intermetallics, and their stability, is complicated, and since they are all very brittle, they are of no commercial importance. (Regarding stability, there's a large beta region around 88% Cu and above 567C, but it doesn't remain stable, we say it decomposes below 567C into other stuff. Alpha 2 apparently re-forms at the same percentage, at much lower temperatures. It's the same proportion of atoms, yet there are two different crystal forms, and one range where neither is stable! Sometimes, chemistry is bizarre like this.)
                                  >
                                  > Up past 92% Cu or so, a solid solution is formed, meaning aluminum is freely dissolved in the copper, whether liquid or solid. This is similar to brass, which is (for the most part) a solid solution between zinc and copper. Properties change slowly with respect to alloy in these forms, so for example, 10% zinc still looks kind of coppery, 20% looks golden, and 30% looks brassy. Aluminum is a stronger alloying agent in copper, so over the 5-10% aluminum range, color goes from coppery to gold to brass in an analogous way.
                                  >
                                  > Aluminum bronzes are usually around 10% Al. This is on the edge of the solid solution, which means some intermetallics will be present. In small quantities, these hard components lock the crystal structure, hardening it, while reducing ductility (they're brittle!).
                                  >
                                  > As for making alloys, copper dissolves in aluminum very easily, but getting it to make contact is the hard part. Both are coated in an oxide layer; submerging copper metal in an aluminum melt is only likely to make metal-liquid contact at a few points. Imagine dissolving a block of salt in water, except the salt was wrapped with duct tape. Not going to go very fast, right? If you had a solvent to disrupt that layer (for duct tape, paint stripper probably works well, but for metals, you need a flux), it would dissolve easily. Still, verifying that it's fully dissolved isn't as easy as looking inside the glass of water and seeing that all the salt dissolved. Better safe than sorry.
                                  >
                                  > To make copper-aluminum master alloy, I suggest melting a sample of copper, then adding an equal weight of aluminum (preferably aluminum wire, which is 1099 alloy, or something similar). Either do it gradually so the temperature remains high (and everything remains molten), or add it all and bring it back up to temperature before pouring. Failure to remelt will likely result in a frozen heel of intermetallics -- not so handy for consistency, or for breaking things up later (some of those higher intermetallics, like gamma, may still be brittle, but they can be very strong!).
                                  >
                                  > Tim
                                  >
                                  > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote:
                                  >> Howard,
                                  >> That's an interesting supposition. "At some point" covers a lot of ground; I think you'd need to run an experiment to prove or disprove. An experiment, would probably be cheaper than asking a metallurgist.
                                  >> Mikey
                                  >>
                                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                                  >> From: StoneTool<owly@...>
                                  >> To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                                  >> Sent: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 16:01:05 -0000 (UTC)
                                  >> Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Nelson:
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Aluminum bronze is an alloy I am familiar with, and excellent
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> bearing material with good useful properties. My question here is, if
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> you keep feeding copper into molten aluminum without significantly
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> raising the melt temperature, at some point your alloy will become a
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> copper alloy rather than an aluminum alloy.... Presumably as you pass
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> 50%. I find it difficult to believe that the melt temp wouldn't have
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> to increase considerably as this point is approached and passed........
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Howard
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> On 02/28/2013 09:10 PM, Nelson Collar wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>> No because the aluminum does not have the same properties that tin has. Aluminum is nothing but dirt-sand.
                                  >>
                                  >>> Nelson Collar
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>> ________________________________
                                  >>
                                  >>> From: Robert Broughtonbroughton%40rocketmail.com" target=_blank>r.broughton@...>
                                  >>
                                  >>> To: "hobbicast@...@yahoogroups.com>
                                  >>
                                  >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:43 PM
                                  >>
                                  >>> Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>>
                                  >>
                                  >>> There are different types of bronzes with differing levels of copper and some other metal or silicon content. However on all of them, the copper is the predominate (over 60 and usually over 90 percent) component in the alloy mix. If you are only adding 6 to 10% copper, it would be more of an aluminum alloy than a bronze. However, if you switched it around so you had 90% copper and 10 percent Al, then it would be an aluminum bronze.
                                  >>
                                  >>> Bob
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>> ________________________________
                                  >>
                                  >>> From: Nelson Collar nel2lar@...>
                                  >>
                                  >>> To: "hobbicast@...@yahoogroups.com>
                                  >>
                                  >>> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:20 PM
                                  >>
                                  >>> Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>>
                                  >>
                                  >>> Howard
                                  >>
                                  >>> It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no unmelted pieces in it, place the copper (I use from 6 to 10% copper) it will melt almost on contact. When it comes to remelting it, it does not act like the aluminum you melted in the first melt. The copper makes a very hard set and is a lot nicer to machine.
                                  >>
                                  >>> Nelson Collar
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                                  > this list does not accept attachments.
                                  >
                                  > Files area and list services are at:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                  >
                                  > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                                  > check out these two affiliated sites:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                                  >
                                  > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                  > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                  >
                                  > List Owner:
                                  > owly@...
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Wonk
                                  Howard, aren t you the one who brought up this subject? Mikey is correct it is time to actually melt an experiment and see for yourself what happens. That way
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 1, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Howard, aren't you the one who brought up this subject?
                                    Mikey is correct it is time to actually melt an experiment and see for yourself what happens. That way the tread can end with you being knowledgeable on the question you asked. This has gone past remembering the question, what were you trying to make that you wanted a low melt copper or golden metal for?

                                    Wonk

                                    --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Mikey
                                    > You are right of course........... I assumed that members had tried
                                    > this kind of thing. Putting a bit of copper into an aluminum melt
                                    > 1-10% is a far different thing from trying to dissolve 70% copper into a
                                    > crucible of molten aluminum a bit at a time. It is after all the
                                    > aluminum that is dissolving the copper into solution. There has to be
                                    > a saturation point. Normally as I understand it you melt the
                                    > primary metal and introduce the alloying components. Once copper
                                    > exceeds 50% you are dealing with a copper alloy, not an aluminum alloy.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Howard
                                    >
                                    > On 03/01/2013 08:53 AM, michael.a.porter@... wrote:
                                    > > Howard,
                                    > > That's an interesting supposition. "At some point" covers a lot of ground; I think you'd need to run an experiment to prove or disprove. An experiment, would probably be cheaper than asking a metallurgist.
                                    > > Mikey
                                    > >
                                  • Robert Broughton
                                    Hi, Here is a metallurgical definition of bronze that is a bit more clear. http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Bronze+%28metallurgy%29 regards, Bob
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 2, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi,
                                      Here is a metallurgical definition of bronze that is a bit more clear.
                                      http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Bronze+%28metallurgy%29

                                      regards, Bob


                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...>
                                      To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 12:04 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                                       
                                      Hi,

                                      http://www.thefreedictionary.com/aluminium+bronze

                                       regards, Matthew

                                      Matthew TINKER
                                      CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                                      http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Matthew Tinker
                                      Bob, I was specifically giving a link to Aluminium Bronze for Nelson! Regards, Matthew   Matthew TINKER CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 2, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Bob,

                                        I was specifically giving a link to Aluminium Bronze for Nelson!

                                        Regards, Matthew


                                         
                                        Matthew TINKER
                                        CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                                        http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519


                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Robert Broughton <r.broughton@...>
                                        To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, 2 March 2013, 15:54
                                        Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                                         
                                        Hi,
                                        Here is a metallurgical definition of bronze that is a bit more clear.
                                        http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Bronze+%28metallurgy%29

                                        regards, Bob

                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Matthew Tinker mattinker@...>
                                        To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 12:04 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                                         
                                        Hi,

                                        http://www.thefreedictionary.com/aluminium+bronze

                                         regards, Matthew

                                        Matthew TINKER
                                        CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                                        http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • mikey98118
                                        Thanks, Tim. Your phase diagram description was a treat to read. Mikey ... From: tmoranwms To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 01
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 2, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thanks, Tim.
                                          Your phase diagram description was a treat to read.
                                          Mikey

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: tmoranwms <tmoranwms@...>
                                          To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 17:10:23 -0000 (UTC)
                                          Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying













                                          You can find the phase diagram here:
                                          http://antipasto.union.edu/engineering/Archives/SeniorProjects/2006/ME.2006/agostina/photos%20from%20project/photopages/photo01.htm


                                          On the left is 100% Al, on the right, 100% Cu.



                                          If you follow the topmost curve, bounding the liquid area, you are following the liquidus, meaning that, above that temperature, everything is liquid. The line just below that curve is the solidus (melting point), where one phase (a solid solution or eutectic) melts, and acts as a solvent to dissolve progressively more of the higher-melting phases, until everything goes into solution (at the liquidus). So if you have a 10% Cu alloy (over on the left), starting from room temperature, it's composed of two things: nearly pure aluminum, and theta (Al2Cu, a brittle intermetallic phase). As temperature rises, it passes 548C, and a little bit melts. Now in this triangular region, there is no theta (it formed a solution with some of the aluminum), only aluminum crystals floating in solution. It has a goopy, slushy consistency. Finally, at, oh, 640C or so, the whole thing is molten.



                                          If you made a 50% master alloy, it would be almost pure theta, which is very brittle, and has an acicular crystal habit (the crystals that form on top of the ingot, as it cools, which have a distinctive rodlike appearance, not like the angular lumpy crystals pure 1099 aluminum makes on freezing).



                                          As copper content continues to rise (or aluminum falls), melting point rises steeply as a number of higher intermetallic phases form. The extent of these intermetallics, and their stability, is complicated, and since they are all very brittle, they are of no commercial importance. (Regarding stability, there's a large beta region around 88% Cu and above 567C, but it doesn't remain stable, we say it decomposes below 567C into other stuff. Alpha 2 apparently re-forms at the same percentage, at much lower temperatures. It's the same proportion of atoms, yet there are two different crystal forms, and one range where neither is stable! Sometimes, chemistry is bizarre like this.)



                                          Up past 92% Cu or so, a solid solution is formed, meaning aluminum is freely dissolved in the copper, whether liquid or solid. This is similar to brass, which is (for the most part) a solid solution between zinc and copper. Properties change slowly with respect to alloy in these forms, so for example, 10% zinc still looks kind of coppery, 20% looks golden, and 30% looks brassy. Aluminum is a stronger alloying agent in copper, so over the 5-10% aluminum range, color goes from coppery to gold to brass in an analogous way.



                                          Aluminum bronzes are usually around 10% Al. This is on the edge of the solid solution, which means some intermetallics will be present. In small quantities, these hard components lock the crystal structure, hardening it, while reducing ductility (they're brittle!).



                                          As for making alloys, copper dissolves in aluminum very easily, but getting it to make contact is the hard part. Both are coated in an oxide layer; submerging copper metal in an aluminum melt is only likely to make metal-liquid contact at a few points. Imagine dissolving a block of salt in water, except the salt was wrapped with duct tape. Not going to go very fast, right? If you had a solvent to disrupt that layer (for duct tape, paint stripper probably works well, but for metals, you need a flux), it would dissolve easily. Still, verifying that it's fully dissolved isn't as easy as looking inside the glass of water and seeing that all the salt dissolved. Better safe than sorry.



                                          To make copper-aluminum master alloy, I suggest melting a sample of copper, then adding an equal weight of aluminum (preferably aluminum wire, which is 1099 alloy, or something similar). Either do it gradually so the temperature remains high (and everything remains molten), or add it all and bring it back up to temperature before pouring. Failure to remelt will likely result in a frozen heel of intermetallics -- not so handy for consistency, or for breaking things up later (some of those higher intermetallics, like gamma, may still be brittle, but they can be very strong!).



                                          Tim



                                          --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote:


                                          >


                                          > Howard,


                                          > That's an interesting supposition. "At some point" covers a lot of ground; I think you'd need to run an experiment to prove or disprove. An experiment, would probably be cheaper than asking a metallurgist.


                                          > Mikey


                                          >


                                          > ----- Original Message -----


                                          > From: StoneTool


                                          > To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com


                                          > Sent: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 16:01:05 -0000 (UTC)


                                          > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > Nelson:


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > Aluminum bronze is an alloy I am familiar with, and excellent


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > bearing material with good useful properties. My question here is, if


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > you keep feeding copper into molten aluminum without significantly


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > raising the melt temperature, at some point your alloy will become a


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > copper alloy rather than an aluminum alloy.... Presumably as you pass


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > 50%. I find it difficult to believe that the melt temp wouldn't have


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > to increase considerably as this point is approached and passed........


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > Howard


                                          >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > On 02/28/2013 09:10 PM, Nelson Collar wrote:


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > No because the aluminum does not have the same properties that tin has. Aluminum is nothing but dirt-sand.


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > Nelson Collar


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > ________________________________


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > From: Robert Broughtonbroughton%40rocketmail.com" target=_blank>r.broughton@...>


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > To: "hobbicast@...@yahoogroups.com>


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:43 PM


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > There are different types of bronzes with differing levels of copper and some other metal or silicon content. However on all of them, the copper is the predominate (over 60 and usually over 90 percent) component in the alloy mix. If you are only adding 6 to 10% copper, it would be more of an aluminum alloy than a bronze. However, if you switched it around so you had 90% copper and 10 percent Al, then it would be an aluminum bronze.


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > Bob


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > ________________________________


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > From: Nelson Collar nel2lar@...>


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > To: "hobbicast@...@yahoogroups.com>


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:20 PM


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Alloying


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > >


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > Howard


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > It may seem hard to believe but it is true. And no it does not become a bronze. It is a aluminum alloy with copper. After the aluminum is melted with no unmelted pieces in it, place the copper (I use from 6 to 10% copper) it will melt almost on contact. When it comes to remelting it, it does not act like the aluminum you melted in the first melt. The copper makes a very hard set and is a lot nicer to machine.


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > > Nelson Collar


                                          >


                                          >


                                          > >


                                          >


                                          >








                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.