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Re: [hobbicast] Re: Vortex burner safety

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  • mikey98118
    I agree. Wonk, The if built properly has to do with NA burners built so poorly that they are inclined to back-fire, for instance when the nozzle diameter to
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 25, 2013
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      I agree. Wonk,
      The "if built properly" has to do with NA burners built so poorly that they are inclined to back-fire, for instance when the nozzle diameter to mixing tube ratio isn't great enough to insure sufficient pressure drop in the nozzle. Wow! that takes me back a dozen years to Dr Frankenburner's early lab work.
      Mikey

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Wonk <tiwonk@...>
      To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 20:11:13 -0000 (UTC)
      Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Vortex burner safety













      I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.


      Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.



      wonk



      --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.


      >


      > Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)


      > Mikey








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Patterson
      Wonk I wasn t poo pooing safety. But the safety rules could apply to all burner/furnace/forge types. For me working at home alone it s:   Cold start 1 attach
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 25, 2013
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        Wonk I wasn't poo pooing safety. But the safety rules could apply to all burner/furnace/forge types.
        For me working at home alone it's:
         
        Cold start
        1 attach burner solid (mine is a tight fit with a set screw)
        2 place news print under crucible then fill with metal
        3 make sure area around furnace is clear of obstacles
        4 steel pan under furnace (cast over concrete so my pan is big enough to hold the entire melt)
        5 light furnace (I don't light the burner, remember 'unit')
          a- put small news print between the crucible and and start it burning
          b- slowly turn on the gas, when lit bring up the temp up slow (watch the steam)
          c- when the furnace is hot (no steam and starting to glow) turn on blower and adjust for your metal type and melt time.
        6 go do what you need to do, but never more than a few steps from the furnace
         
        Shut down
        1 turn off gas
        2 turn off blower
         
        All that would be after you've proven your burner/furnace is of stable design.
         
        Safety to me is procedure and repetition

        Other than a  Safety Note about the dangers of this hobby and the fact the author(Mike in the case). is not responsible if the builder can not build it per drawing or deviates from said drawings, the author is not responsible for any injuries.
         
        But I don't have to deal with lawyers, Mike does. He's a braver man than me to take on this challange.

        Dave Patterson
        odd_kins@...
        http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html

        --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Wonk <tiwonk@...> wrote:


        From: Wonk <tiwonk@...>
        Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Vortex burner safety
        To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 12:11 PM



         



        I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.
        Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.

        wonk

        --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of
        maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.
        >
        > Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)
        > Mikey








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Wonk
        Oh I wasn t pointing at you, but if the shoe fits! What I m saying your furnace and burner can be designed for all the stability in the world and in an instant
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 25, 2013
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          Oh I wasn't pointing at you, but if the shoe fits!

          What I'm saying your furnace and burner can be designed for all the stability in the world and in an instant things can change. the only safe fire is one that is out and cold!

          End of story

          Wonk

          --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, David Patterson <odd_kins@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wonk I wasn't poo pooing safety. But the safety rules could apply to all burner/furnace/forge types.
          > For me working at home alone it's:
          >  
          > Cold start
          > 1 attach burner solid (mine is a tight fit with a set screw)
          > 2 place news print under crucible then fill with metal
          > 3 make sure area around furnace is clear of obstacles
          > 4 steel pan under furnace (cast over concrete so my pan is big enough to hold the entire melt)
          > 5 light furnace (I don't light the burner, remember 'unit')
          >   a- put small news print between the crucible and and start it burning
          >   b- slowly turn on the gas, when lit bring up the temp up slow (watch the steam)
          >   c- when the furnace is hot (no steam and starting to glow) turn on blower and adjust for your metal type and melt time.
          > 6 go do what you need to do, but never more than a few steps from the furnace
          >  
          > Shut down
          > 1 turn off gas
          > 2 turn off blower
          >  
          > All that would be after you've proven your burner/furnace is of stable design.
          >  
          > Safety to me is procedure and repetition
          >
          > Other than a  Safety Note about the dangers of this hobby and the fact the author(Mike in the case). is not responsible if the builder can not build it per drawing or deviates from said drawings, the author is not responsible for any injuries.
          >  
          > But I don't have to deal with lawyers, Mike does. He's a braver man than me to take on this challange.
          >
          > Dave Patterson
          > odd_kins@...
          > http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html
          >
          > --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Wonk <tiwonk@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: Wonk <tiwonk@...>
          > Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Vortex burner safety
          > To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 12:11 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.
          > Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.
          >
          > wonk
          >
          > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@ wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of
          > maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.
          > >
          > > Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)
          > > Mikey
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
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