Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Vortex burner safety

Expand Messages
  • Michael Porter
    Vortex Burners Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of backfire—through the fan instead of proper combustion through the flame nozzle—than
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Vortex Burners

      Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of
      backfire—through the fan instead of proper combustion through the
      flame nozzle—than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.
      If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this
      possibility goes along with it.

      A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your
      hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the
      fan.

      It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's
      forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN
      MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the
      fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition
      sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas
      to enter it.

      Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its
      ignition and operation.

      During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.

      The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the
      heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or
      the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner
      is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the
      burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.

      Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the
      funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air
      entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is
      blocked at the flame nozzle.

      Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner
      increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the
      safety procedures given here.

      If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube
      diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder
      forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing
      back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through
      the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running
      (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).
      Secure the burner in position before running it.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ron Thompson
      Sir, I bow to your great wisdom and thank you for sharing. But, I have a question. You state It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner s
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Sir, I bow to your great wisdom and thank you for sharing.
        But, I have a question. You state "It is necessary to ignite the
        fuel/air mixture from the burner's
        forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN
        MOTOR."

        This seems counter-intuitive to me.
        It would seem if you turn on the gas first and light it at the burner,
        there is a possibility for gas to migrate the wrong way in the burner tube.
        Especially if ignition were delayed for some reason.

        I don't understand why you would not start the blower, then the gas and
        then light it.

        Thanks for helping me understand.

        On 2/24/2013 2:05 PM, Michael Porter wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Vortex Burners
        >
        > Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of
        > backfire---through the fan instead of proper combustion through the
        > flame nozzle---than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.
        > If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this
        > possibility goes along with it.
        >
        > A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your
        > hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the
        > fan.
        >
        > It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's
        > forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN
        > MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the
        > fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition
        > sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas
        > to enter it.
        >
        > Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its
        > ignition and operation.
        >
        > During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.
        >
        > The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the
        > heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or
        > the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner
        > is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the
        > burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.
        >
        > Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the
        > funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air
        > entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is
        > blocked at the flame nozzle.
        >
        > Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner
        > increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the
        > safety procedures given here.
        >
        > If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube
        > diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder
        > forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing
        > back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through
        > the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running
        > (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).
        > Secure the burner in position before running it.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
        > Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2641/5628 - Release Date: 02/24/13
        >


        --


        Ron Thompson
        On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA

        Think, Draw, Print. 3D printers ROCK!

        http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/PrusaMendel2012-1/

        http://www.plansandprojects.com My hobby pages are here:
        http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/

        Visit the castinghobby FAQ:
        http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dan Brewer
        Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Sent from my iPhone

          On Feb 24, 2013, at 11:05 AM, "Michael Porter" <michael.a.porter@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > Vortex Burners
          >
          > Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of
          > backfire—through the fan instead of proper combustion through the
          > flame nozzle—than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.
          > If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this
          > possibility goes along with it.
          >
          > A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your
          > hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the
          > fan.
          >
          > It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's
          > forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN
          > MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the
          > fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition
          > sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas
          > to enter it.
          >
          > Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its
          > ignition and operation.
          >
          > During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.
          >
          > The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the
          > heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or
          > the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner
          > is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the
          > burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.
          >
          > Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the
          > funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air
          > entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is
          > blocked at the flame nozzle.
          >
          > Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner
          > increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the
          > safety procedures given here.
          >
          > If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube
          > diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder
          > forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing
          > back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through
          > the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running
          > (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).
          > Secure the burner in position before running it.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Patterson
          Mike, I m assuming now. If your running your burner in a foundry furnace, you won t have these problems, if you follow proper starting and stopping the burner.
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Mike, I'm assuming now. If your running your burner in a foundry furnace, you won't have these problems, if you follow proper starting and stopping the burner. To start with I designed my own burner venturi(funnel). I've had none of the problems you described.
             
            To start the burner in the furnace, every thing is off. I put a piece of burning news paper in the furnace. With the lid open I start the gas with the restrictor on the blower wide open. The gas will ignite and i bring the gas up to about 5-7 psi. After a minute I or so turn the restrictor down to about 1/4 open and turn on the blower. Then it's just adjust the burner for the type of metal your melting.
             
            The burner tube is about 9" and extends about 1" into the frunace. The blower is all metal and has never gotten hot when left in the furnace.
             
            When shutting down I normally shut the gas off first, but I can shut down either one first.
             
            If built right(like mine;-) there should be no back pressure, just some additional air and an accelerated flame. All this does is increase the flame temp, some. adjustments are the same as any other type of burner, air flow and gas pressure.


            Dave Patterson
            odd_kins@...
            http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html

            --- On Sun, 2/24/13, Michael Porter <michael.a.porter@...> wrote:


            From: Michael Porter <michael.a.porter@...>
            Subject: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety
            To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, February 24, 2013, 11:05 AM



             





            Vortex Burners

            Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of
            backfire—through the fan instead of proper combustion through the
            flame nozzle—than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.
            If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this
            possibility goes along with it.

            A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your
            hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the
            fan.

            It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's
            forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN
            MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the
            fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition
            sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas
            to enter it.

            Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its
            ignition and operation.

            During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.

            The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the
            heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or
            the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner
            is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the
            burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.

            Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the
            funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air
            entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is
            blocked at the flame nozzle.

            Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner
            increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the
            safety procedures given here.

            If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube
            diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder
            forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing
            back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through
            the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running
            (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).
            Secure the burner in position before running it.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mikey98118
            Your intuition is only right so far as it goes, Ron. It s a simple case of apples and oranges. Normally, the procedure you describe is the safe way to ignite a
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Your intuition is only right so far as it goes, Ron.
              It's a simple case of apples and oranges. Normally, the procedure you describe is the safe way to ignite a fan-blown burner system. However, this is not a warning for fan-blown burners in general (thus the title VORTEX burner safety). These cautionary statements only cover a specific fan-blown burner design, which is radically different from the average ducted fan-blown burner. These burners are even quite different from previous funnel burners with mounted fans, as they are specifically designed to produce greatly increased swirl in the gas/air mixture, along with much lower pressure in the mixing tube than all previously discussed hobby burner designs.

              It is the difference between flame nozzle pressure, and the higher mixing tube pressure that--normally--prevents burn-back down the mixing tube in all the hobby burners people read about. This particular burner series has much lower mixing tube pressure than even my best high speed tube burner. However, vortical flow is so fast that even this very low pressure is reduced still further in the nozzle area beyond the mixing tube. While the burner's flame is running, ultra low mixing tube pressure is no problem. However, block that flame and this burner is much more given to burn-back than previous designs.

              On top of that, an over strong, and/or over sized fan pushing air in front of a very short funnel shape creates back pressure, which can become greater than the forward momentum in the burner's vortical flow; fortunately these two forces are normally separated, even in badly designed burners. BUT, with the flame blocked, and burning back down the mixing tube, that back pressure can suddenly reverse the flame direction out through the fan.

              This burner series is designed to create strong vortical flow down the mixing tube without the fan running at all; so, danger of burn-back is a none issue BEFORE THE FAN MOTOR IS ENGAGED. Once the fan is running, potential for burn-back increases in limited circumstances. As with so many safety warnings, a typical idiot has to defy several of my admonitions in order to end up in trouble; that's why they were given in just the way they were.

              And, before you ask about either fan-blown or naturally aspirated burners running in furnaces without any nozzle at all, the answer is that, in effect, the equipment interior becomes the actual burner, while the burner installed in it, sans nozzle, becomes (in effect) nothing more than a fancy delivery system for the gas/air mixture that is ignited and burned in the equipment--not in the "burner."

              You just go on watching closely, and keeping me honest, Ron; you're bound to catch a major mistake sooner or later; probably not as glaring as recommending garden hose for transporting fuel gas, but you never know.. :-)
              Mikey

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ron Thompson <ron@...>
              To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 19:35:05 -0000 (UTC)
              Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety





















              Sir, I bow to your great wisdom and thank you for sharing.


              But, I have a question. You state "It is necessary to ignite the


              fuel/air mixture from the burner's


              forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN


              MOTOR."



              This seems counter-intuitive to me.


              It would seem if you turn on the gas first and light it at the burner,


              there is a possibility for gas to migrate the wrong way in the burner tube.


              Especially if ignition were delayed for some reason.



              I don't understand why you would not start the blower, then the gas and


              then light it.



              Thanks for helping me understand.



              On 2/24/2013 2:05 PM, Michael Porter wrote:


              >


              >


              >


              > Vortex Burners


              >


              > Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of


              > backfire---through the fan instead of proper combustion through the


              > flame nozzle---than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.


              > If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this


              > possibility goes along with it.


              >


              > A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your


              > hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the


              > fan.


              >


              > It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's


              > forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN


              > MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the


              > fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition


              > sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas


              > to enter it.


              >


              > Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its


              > ignition and operation.


              >


              > During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.


              >


              > The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the


              > heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or


              > the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner


              > is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the


              > burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.


              >


              > Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the


              > funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air


              > entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is


              > blocked at the flame nozzle.


              >


              > Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner


              > increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the


              > safety procedures given here.


              >


              > If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube


              > diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder


              > forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing


              > back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through


              > the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running


              > (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).


              > Secure the burner in position before running it.


              >


              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


              >


              >


              >


              > No virus found in this message.


              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com" target=_blank>http://www.avg.com>


              > Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2641/5628 - Release Date: 02/24/13


              >



              --



              Ron Thompson


              On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA



              Think, Draw, Print. 3D printers ROCK!

              plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/PrusaMendel2012-1/" target=_blank>http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/PrusaMendel2012-1/

              http://www.plansandprojects.com My hobby pages are here:
              http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/



              Visit the castinghobby FAQ:
              castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/" target=_blank>http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jamie Cunningham
              Hmmmm - I always start my fan first, then turn up the gas, and then light it - never had a problem and I ve never experienced any blow back or any thing at all
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Hmmmm - I always start my fan first, then turn up the gas, and then light
                it - never had a problem and I've never experienced any blow back or any
                thing at all other than what I expect - I figure to get the gas moving in
                the right direction first, then light it - just my experience with my home
                built propane torch

                Jamie
                Check out my CNC projects (and more) at http://www.backyardworkshop.com


                On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Michael Porter <
                michael.a.porter@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Vortex Burners
                >
                > Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of
                > backfire�through the fan instead of proper combustion through the
                > flame nozzle�than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.
                > If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this
                > possibility goes along with it.
                >
                > A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your
                > hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the
                > fan.
                >
                > It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's
                > forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN
                > MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the
                > fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition
                > sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas
                > to enter it.
                >
                > Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its
                > ignition and operation.
                >
                > During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.
                >
                > The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the
                > heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or
                > the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner
                > is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the
                > burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.
                >
                > Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the
                > funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air
                > entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is
                > blocked at the flame nozzle.
                >
                > Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner
                > increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the
                > safety procedures given here.
                >
                > If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube
                > diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder
                > forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing
                > back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through
                > the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running
                > (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).
                > Secure the burner in position before running it.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ron Thompson
                ... I don t recommend that. I just do it myself. -- Ron Thompson On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA Think, Draw,
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  On 2/24/2013 5:46 PM, michael.a.porter@... wrote:
                  > You just go on watching closely, and keeping me honest, Ron; you're
                  > bound to catch a major mistake sooner or later; probably not as
                  > glaring as recommending garden hose for transporting fuel gas, but you
                  > never know.. :-)
                  > Mikey
                  I don't recommend that. I just do it myself.

                  --


                  Ron Thompson
                  On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA

                  Think, Draw, Print. 3D printers ROCK!

                  http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/PrusaMendel2012-1/

                  http://www.plansandprojects.com My hobby pages are here:
                  http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/

                  Visit the castinghobby FAQ:
                  http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/
                • mikey98118
                  Hi, Dave. I agree with your main point; that the burners will probably run quite differently after they re placed in casting furnaces. I m also not surprised
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi, Dave.
                    I agree with your main point; that the burners will probably run quite differently after they're placed in casting furnaces. I'm also not surprised that your excellent burner doesn't have the vortex burner's potential "problems." Your burner uses a squirrel cage blower, which provides positive force , and depends on the funnel alone to provide spin. My burner is designed to provide high forward momentum and spin with as low a positive pressure as can be avoided. Nevertheless, your comments about running the burner already placed within the furnace should apply. I'm experimenting with a whole series of burner sizes, and am running them "out in the open" at present.

                    As with other safety admonitions for any equipment, I have to describe a worst case scenario, where someone has managed to jump all the tracks. Nevertheless, some will undoubtedly do so; they're who painstaking safety admonitions are always aimed at. The first place people will run these burners will be out in the open, during testing. What procedures they will use when running them in coffee-can furnaces is farther along than I've gotten, thus far. Once the burner is positioned in a furnace the operator is really lighting the furnace (the whole heating system), rather than just a burner. Once I get that far, there might have to be another set of instructions based on what I observe, then., but even after building and testing is done, I use these burners in the open air all the time for hand brazing; others will too. I also plan to run them in chip forges, and brazing stations, neither of which will support the flame like a casting furnace. So, the opening safety precautions in my Vortex burner chapter will have to remain. It will be interesting to see if they get added to or not.
                    Mikey

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: David Patterson <odd_kins@...>
                    To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:43:30 -0000 (UTC)
                    Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety





















                    Mike, I'm assuming now. If your running your burner in a foundry furnace, you won't have these problems, if you follow proper starting and stopping the burner. To start with I designed my own burner venturi(funnel). I've had none of the problems you described.





                    To start the burner in the furnace, every thing is off. I put a piece of burning news paper in the furnace. With the lid open I start the gas with the restrictor on the blower wide open. The gas will ignite and i bring the gas up to about 5-7 psi. After a minute I or so turn the restrictor down to about 1/4 open and turn on the blower. Then it's just adjust the burner for the type of metal your melting.





                    The burner tube is about 9" and extends about 1" into the frunace. The blower is all metal and has never gotten hot when left in the furnace.





                    When shutting down I normally shut the gas off first, but I can shut down either one first.





                    If built right(like mine;-) there should be no back pressure, just some additional air and an accelerated flame. All this does is increase the flame temp, some. adjustments are the same as any other type of burner, air flow and gas pressure.



                    Dave Patterson
                    odd_kins@...
                    http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html" target=_blank>http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html



                    --- On Sun, 2/24/13, Michael Porter michael.a.porter%40comcast.net" target=_blank>michael.a.porter@...> wrote:



                    From: Michael Porter michael.a.porter@...>


                    Subject: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety


                    To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com


                    Date: Sunday, February 24, 2013, 11:05 AM







                    Vortex Burners



                    Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of


                    backfire—through the fan instead of proper combustion through the


                    flame nozzle—than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.


                    If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this


                    possibility goes along with it.



                    A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your


                    hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the


                    fan.



                    It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's


                    forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN


                    MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the


                    fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition


                    sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas


                    to enter it.



                    Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its


                    ignition and operation.



                    During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.



                    The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the


                    heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or


                    the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner


                    is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the


                    burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.



                    Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the


                    funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air


                    entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is


                    blocked at the flame nozzle.



                    Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner


                    increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the


                    safety procedures given here.



                    If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube


                    diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder


                    forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing


                    back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through


                    the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running


                    (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).


                    Secure the burner in position before running it.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]










                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • mikey98118
                    Ah well, I get that alright; fortunately only my close friends know how many safety rules I break personally... ... From: Ron Thompson To:
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Ah well, I get that alright; fortunately only my close friends know how many safety rules I break personally...

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Ron Thompson <ron@...>
                      To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 23:39:10 -0000 (UTC)
                      Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety





























                      On 2/24/2013 5:46 PM, michael.a.porter%40comcast.net" target=_blank>michael.a.porter@... wrote:


                      > You just go on watching closely, and keeping me honest, Ron; you're


                      > bound to catch a major mistake sooner or later; probably not as


                      > glaring as recommending garden hose for transporting fuel gas, but you


                      > never know.. :-)


                      > Mikey


                      I don't recommend that. I just do it myself.



                      --



                      Ron Thompson


                      On the Beautiful Florida Space Coast, right beside the Kennedy Space Center, USA



                      Think, Draw, Print. 3D printers ROCK!

                      http://web.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/PrusaMendel2012-1/" target=_blank>http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/PrusaMendel2012-1/

                      http://www.plansandprojects.com My hobby pages are here:
                      http://www.plansandprojects.com/My%20Machines/



                      Visit the castinghobby FAQ:
                      castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/" target=_blank>http://castinghobbyfaq.bareboogerhost.com/












                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • mikey98118
                      Jamie C., I think your comments are good. All you guys are kind of reminding me that I need to write up the safety instructions for regular fan-blowers in the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Jamie C.,
                        I think your comments are good. All you guys are kind of reminding me that I need to write up the safety instructions for regular fan-blowers in the chapter that precedes Vortex burners. Yes...that is a smart thing to do. Unfortunately, a friend just forwarded about the most hilarious Viagra jokes I ever read...and my brain is simply burned out at the moment.
                        Mikey

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Jamie Cunningham <jamie@...>
                        To: Hobby Casting Yahoo Group <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:58:04 -0000 (UTC)
                        Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety

                        Hmmmm - I always start my fan first, then turn up the gas, and then light
                        it - never had a problem and I've never experienced any blow back or any
                        thing at all other than what I expect - I figure to get the gas moving in
                        the right direction first, then light it - just my experience with my home
                        built propane torch

                        Jamie
                        Check out my CNC projects (and more) at http://www.backyardworkshop.com


                        On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Michael Porter <
                        michael.a.porter@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Vortex Burners
                        >
                        > Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of
                        > backfire�through the fan instead of proper combustion through the
                        > flame nozzle�than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.
                        > If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this
                        > possibility goes along with it.
                        >
                        > A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your
                        > hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the
                        > fan.
                        >
                        > It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's
                        > forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN
                        > MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the
                        > fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition
                        > sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas
                        > to enter it.
                        >
                        > Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its
                        > ignition and operation.
                        >
                        > During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.
                        >
                        > The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the
                        > heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or
                        > the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner
                        > is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the
                        > burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.
                        >
                        > Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the
                        > funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air
                        > entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is
                        > blocked at the flame nozzle.
                        >
                        > Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner
                        > increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the
                        > safety procedures given here.
                        >
                        > If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube
                        > diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder
                        > forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing
                        > back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through
                        > the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running
                        > (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).
                        > Secure the burner in position before running it.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

                        For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                        this list does not accept attachments.

                        Files area and list services are at:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast

                        For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                        check out these two affiliated sites:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1

                        Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                        http://budgetcastingsupply.com/

                        List Owner:
                        owly@...

                        Yahoo! Groups Links





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Wonk
                        After working in the HVAC industry for more than 30 years I have seen many a problem with burners becoming blocked and getting blow back in the fan area. I
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          After working in the HVAC industry for more than 30 years I have seen many a problem with burners becoming blocked and getting blow back in the fan area. I have also experienced blow back in a natural aspirated propane burner when a crucible burst and the melt caused sudden blockage. I have tested my version of the vortex funnel burner to see what would happen if a sudden blockage would occur and experienced a fire ball out through the fan, safety is no joke and when building equipment one must think of all the stupid possibilities and should it happen how to prevent injury

                          Wonk

                          --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote:
                          >
                          > Ah well, I get that alright; fortunately only my close friends know how many safety rules I break personally...
                          >
                          >
                        • David Patterson
                          Mike I think it s just a different way of thinking. I built my burners for a foundry furnace and it could be used in a forge. I have no intention of using it
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 24, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Mike I think it's just a different way of thinking. I built my burners for a foundry furnace and it could be used in a forge. I have no intention of using it outside of the foundry furnace. I do like your first burners and that I would use in a forge. I tend to think that the furnace and burner as a unit, then gage it's efficiency. Using a furnace/forge burner outside the furnace,to me give little info. Looking at melt times, gas psi and air inlet size for a specific melt, aluminum or brass, in my case, gives me more info. Looks like you're looking for something more.

                            Dave Patterson
                            odd_kins@...
                            http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html

                            --- On Sun, 2/24/13, michael.a.porter@... <michael.a.porter@...> wrote:


                            From: michael.a.porter@... <michael.a.porter@...>
                            Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety
                            To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Sunday, February 24, 2013, 5:33 PM



                             



                            Hi, Dave.
                            I agree with your main point; that the burners will probably run quite differently after they're placed in casting furnaces. I'm also not surprised that your excellent burner doesn't have the vortex burner's potential "problems." Your burner uses a squirrel cage blower, which provides positive force , and depends on the funnel alone to provide spin. My burner is designed to provide high forward momentum and spin with as low a positive pressure as can be avoided. Nevertheless, your comments about running the burner already placed within the furnace should apply. I'm experimenting with a whole series of burner sizes, and am running them "out in the open" at present.

                            As with other safety admonitions for any equipment, I have to describe a worst case scenario, where someone has managed to jump all the tracks. Nevertheless, some will undoubtedly do so; they're who painstaking safety admonitions are always aimed at. The first place people will run these burners will be out in the open, during testing. What procedures they will use when running them in coffee-can furnaces is farther along than I've gotten, thus far. Once the burner is positioned in a furnace the operator is really lighting the furnace (the whole heating system), rather than just a burner. Once I get that far, there might have to be another set of instructions based on what I observe, then., but even after building and testing is done, I use these burners in the open air all the time for hand brazing; others will too. I also plan to run them in chip forges, and brazing stations, neither of which will support the flame like a casting furnace. So, the
                            opening safety precautions in my Vortex burner chapter will have to remain. It will be interesting to see if they get added to or not.
                            Mikey

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: David Patterson odd_kins@...>
                            To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:43:30-0000 (UTC)
                            Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety

                            Mike, I'm assuming now. If your running your burner in a foundry furnace, you won't have these problems, if you follow proper starting and stopping the burner. To start with I designed my own burner venturi(funnel). I've had none of the problems you described.

                            To start the burner in the furnace, every thing is off. I put a piece of burning news paper in the furnace. With the lid open I start the gas with the restrictor on the blower wide open. The gas will ignite and i bring the gas up to about 5-7 psi. After a minute I or so turn the restrictor down to about 1/4 open and turn on the blower. Then it's just adjust the burner for the type of metal your melting.

                            The burner tube is about 9" and extends about 1" into the frunace. The blower is all metal and has never gotten hot when left in the furnace.

                            When shutting down I normally shut the gas off first, but I can shut down either one first.

                            If built right(like mine;-) there should be no back pressure, just some additional air and an accelerated flame. All this does is increase the flame temp, some. adjustments are the same as any other type of burner, air flow and gas pressure.

                            Dave Patterson
                            odd_kins@...
                            http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html" target=_blank>http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html

                            --- On Sun, 2/24/13, Michael Porter michael.a.porter%40comcast.net" target=_blank>michael.a.porter@...> wrote:

                            From: Michael Porter michael.a.porter@...>

                            Subject: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety

                            To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com

                            Date: Sunday, February 24, 2013, 11:05 AM

                            Vortex Burners

                            Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of

                            backfire—through the fan instead of proper combustion through the

                            flame nozzle—than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.

                            If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this

                            possibility goes along with it.

                            A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your

                            hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the

                            fan.

                            It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's

                            forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN

                            MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the

                            fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition

                            sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas

                            to enter it.

                            Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its

                            ignition and operation.

                            During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.

                            The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the

                            heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or

                            the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner

                            is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the

                            burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.

                            Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the

                            funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air

                            entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is

                            blocked at the flame nozzle.

                            Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner

                            increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the

                            safety procedures given here.

                            If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube

                            diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder

                            forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing

                            back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through

                            the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running

                            (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).

                            Secure the burner in position before running it.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Malcolm Parker-Lisberg
                            Michael Well don t just keep the joke to yourself, Stand up straight and share it with us. Malcolm I don t suffer from insanity I enjoy it! Mene, mene, tekel,
                            Message 13 of 19 , Feb 25, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Michael

                              Well don't just keep the joke to yourself, Stand up straight and share it with us.

                              Malcolm

                              I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!

                              Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin

                              The writing is on the wall.

                              --- On Mon, 2/25/13, michael.a.porter@... <michael.a.porter@...> wrote:

                              From: michael.a.porter@... <michael.a.porter@...>
                              Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety
                              To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 2:00 AM
















                               









                              Jamie C.,

                              I think your comments are good. All you guys are kind of reminding me that I need to write up the safety instructions for regular fan-blowers in the chapter that precedes Vortex burners. Yes...that is a smart thing to do. Unfortunately, a friend just forwarded about the most hilarious Viagra jokes I ever read...and my brain is simply burned out at the moment.

                              Mikey



                              ----- Original Message -----

                              From: Jamie Cunningham jamie@...>

                              To: Hobby Casting Yahoo Group hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>

                              Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:58:04 -0000 (UTC)

                              Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety



                              Hmmmm - I always start my fan first, then turn up the gas, and then light

                              it - never had a problem and I've never experienced any blow back or any

                              thing at all other than what I expect - I figure to get the gas moving in

                              the right direction first, then light it - just my experience with my home

                              built propane torch



                              Jamie

                              Check out my CNC projects (and more) at http://www.backyardworkshop.com



                              On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Michael Porter <

                              michael.a.porter@...> wrote:



                              > **

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              >

                              > Vortex Burners

                              >

                              > Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of

                              > backfire�through the fan instead of proper combustion through the

                              > flame nozzle�than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.

                              > If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this

                              > possibility goes along with it.

                              >

                              > A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your

                              > hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the

                              > fan.

                              >

                              > It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's

                              > forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN

                              > MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the

                              > fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition

                              > sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas

                              > to enter it.

                              >

                              > Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its

                              > ignition and operation.

                              >

                              > During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.

                              >

                              > The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the

                              > heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or

                              > the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner

                              > is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the

                              > burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.

                              >

                              > Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the

                              > funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air

                              > entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is

                              > blocked at the flame nozzle.

                              >

                              > Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner

                              > increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the

                              > safety procedures given here.

                              >

                              > If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube

                              > diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder

                              > forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing

                              > back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through

                              > the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running

                              > (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).

                              > Secure the burner in position before running it.

                              >

                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              >

                              >

                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              ------------------------------------



                              For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues

                              this list does not accept attachments.



                              Files area and list services are at:

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast



                              For additional files and photos and off topic discussions

                              check out these two affiliated sites:

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1



                              Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply

                              http://budgetcastingsupply.com/



                              List Owner:

                              owly@...



                              Yahoo! Groups Links



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • mikey98118
                              Since you asked: The Funniest Staff Meeting ! The boss of a Madison Avenue advertising agency called a spontaneous staff meeting in the middle of a
                              Message 14 of 19 , Feb 25, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Since you asked:




                                The Funniest Staff Meeting !
                                The boss of a Madison Avenue advertising agency called a spontaneous staff meeting in the middle of a particularly stressful week. (This is one pretty sharp boss!) When everyone gathered, the boss, who understood the benefits of having fun, told the burnt out staff the purpose of the meeting was to have a quick contest. The theme: Viagra advertising slogans. The only rule was they had to use past ad slogans, originally written for other products that captured the essence of Viagra. Slight variations were acceptable.

                                About 7 minutes later, they turned in their suggestions and created a Top 10 List.. With all the laughter and camaraderie, the rest of the week went very well for everyone! The top 10 were:

                                10. Viagra, Whaazzzz up!

                                9. Viagra, The quicker pecker picker upper.

                                8. Viagra, like a rock!

                                7. Viagra, When it absolutely, positively has to be there overnight.

                                6. Viagra, Be all that you can be.

                                5. Viagra, Reach out and touch someone.

                                4. Viagra, Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.

                                3. Viagra, Home of the whopper!

                                2. Viagra, We bring good things to Life!


                                And the unanimous number one slogan:

                                1. This is your peepee... This is your peepee on drugs
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Malcolm Parker-Lisberg <mparkerlisberg@...>
                                To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:56:36 -0000 (UTC)
                                Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety













                                Michael



                                Well don't just keep the joke to yourself, Stand up straight and share it with us.



                                Malcolm



                                I don't suffer from insanity I enjoy it!



                                Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin



                                The writing is on the wall.



                                --- On Mon, 2/25/13, michael.a.porter@...@...> wrote:



                                From: michael.a.porter@...@...>


                                Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety


                                To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com


                                Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 2:00 AM







                                Jamie C.,



                                I think your comments are good. All you guys are kind of reminding me that I need to write up the safety instructions for regular fan-blowers in the chapter that precedes Vortex burners. Yes...that is a smart thing to do. Unfortunately, a friend just forwarded about the most hilarious Viagra jokes I ever read...and my brain is simply burned out at the moment.



                                Mikey



                                ----- Original Message -----



                                From: Jamie Cunningham jamie@...>



                                To: Hobby Casting Yahoo Group hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>



                                Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:58:04 -0000 (UTC)



                                Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety



                                Hmmmm - I always start my fan first, then turn up the gas, and then light



                                it - never had a problem and I've never experienced any blow back or any



                                thing at all other than what I expect - I figure to get the gas moving in



                                the right direction first, then light it - just my experience with my home



                                built propane torch



                                Jamie



                                Check out my CNC projects (and more) at http://www.backyardworkshop.com



                                On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Michael Porter <

                                michael.a.porter@...> wrote:



                                > **



                                >



                                >



                                >



                                >



                                > Vortex Burners



                                >



                                > Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of



                                > backfire�through the fan instead of proper combustion through the



                                > flame nozzle�than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.



                                > If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this



                                > possibility goes along with it.



                                >



                                > A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your



                                > hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the



                                > fan.



                                >



                                > It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's



                                > forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN



                                > MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the



                                > fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition



                                > sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas



                                > to enter it.



                                >



                                > Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its



                                > ignition and operation.



                                >



                                > During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.



                                >



                                > The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the



                                > heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or



                                > the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner



                                > is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the



                                > burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.



                                >



                                > Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the



                                > funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air



                                > entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is



                                > blocked at the flame nozzle.



                                >



                                > Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner



                                > increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the



                                > safety procedures given here.



                                >



                                > If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube



                                > diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder



                                > forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing



                                > back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through



                                > the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running



                                > (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).



                                > Secure the burner in position before running it.



                                >



                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                >



                                >



                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------------------------------



                                For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues



                                this list does not accept attachments.



                                Files area and list services are at:

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast



                                For additional files and photos and off topic discussions



                                check out these two affiliated sites:

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1



                                Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply

                                http://budgetcastingsupply.com/



                                List Owner:

                                owly@...



                                Yahoo! Groups Links



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • mikey98118
                                Dave, Once again, I have to agree with your point of view. Even the best burner can t overcome a poorly designed and/or constructed furnace; together, they are
                                Message 15 of 19 , Feb 25, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dave,
                                  Once again, I have to agree with your point of view. Even the best burner can't overcome a poorly designed and/or constructed furnace; together, they are a system.

                                  Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.

                                  Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)
                                  Mikey

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: David Patterson <odd_kins@...>
                                  To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 03:37:20 -0000 (UTC)
                                  Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety





























                                  Mike I think it's just a different way of thinking. I built my burners for a foundry furnace and it could be used in a forge. I have no intention of using it outside of the foundry furnace. I do like your first burners and that I would use in a forge. I tend to think that the furnace and burner as a unit, then gage it's efficiency. Using a furnace/forge burner outside the furnace,to me give little info. Looking at melt times, gas psi and air inlet size for a specific melt, aluminum or brass, in my case, gives me more info. Looks like you're looking for something more.



                                  Dave Patterson
                                  odd_kins@...
                                  http://web.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html" target=_blank>http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html



                                  --- On Sun, 2/24/13, michael.a.porter%40comcast.net" target=_blank>michael.a.porter@...@...> wrote:



                                  From: michael.a.porter@...@...>


                                  Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety


                                  To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com


                                  Date: Sunday, February 24, 2013, 5:33 PM







                                  Hi, Dave.


                                  I agree with your main point; that the burners will probably run quite differently after they're placed in casting furnaces. I'm also not surprised that your excellent burner doesn't have the vortex burner's potential "problems." Your burner uses a squirrel cage blower, which provides positive force , and depends on the funnel alone to provide spin. My burner is designed to provide high forward momentum and spin with as low a positive pressure as can be avoided. Nevertheless, your comments about running the burner already placed within the furnace should apply. I'm experimenting with a whole series of burner sizes, and am running them "out in the open" at present.



                                  As with other safety admonitions for any equipment, I have to describe a worst case scenario, where someone has managed to jump all the tracks. Nevertheless, some will undoubtedly do so; they're who painstaking safety admonitions are always aimed at. The first place people will run these burners will be out in the open, during testing. What procedures they will use when running them in coffee-can furnaces is farther along than I've gotten, thus far. Once the burner is positioned in a furnace the operator is really lighting the furnace (the whole heating system), rather than just a burner. Once I get that far, there might have to be another set of instructions based on what I observe, then., but even after building and testing is done, I use these burners in the open air all the time for hand brazing; others will too. I also plan to run them in chip forges, and brazing stations, neither of which will support the flame like a casting furnace. So, the


                                  opening safety precautions in my Vortex burner chapter will have to remain. It will be interesting to see if they get added to or not.


                                  Mikey



                                  ----- Original Message -----


                                  From: David Patterson odd_kins@...>


                                  To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com


                                  Sent: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:43:30-0000 (UTC)


                                  Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety



                                  Mike, I'm assuming now. If your running your burner in a foundry furnace, you won't have these problems, if you follow proper starting and stopping the burner. To start with I designed my own burner venturi(funnel). I've had none of the problems you described.



                                  To start the burner in the furnace, every thing is off. I put a piece of burning news paper in the furnace. With the lid open I start the gas with the restrictor on the blower wide open. The gas will ignite and i bring the gas up to about 5-7 psi. After a minute I or so turn the restrictor down to about 1/4 open and turn on the blower. Then it's just adjust the burner for the type of metal your melting.



                                  The burner tube is about 9" and extends about 1" into the frunace. The blower is all metal and has never gotten hot when left in the furnace.



                                  When shutting down I normally shut the gas off first, but I can shut down either one first.



                                  If built right(like mine;-) there should be no back pressure, just some additional air and an accelerated flame. All this does is increase the flame temp, some. adjustments are the same as any other type of burner, air flow and gas pressure.



                                  Dave Patterson
                                  odd_kins@...
                                  http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html" target=_blank>http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html



                                  --- On Sun, 2/24/13, Michael Porter michael.a.porter%40comcast.net" target=_blank>michael.a.porter@...> wrote:



                                  From: Michael Porter michael.a.porter@...>



                                  Subject: [hobbicast] Vortex burner safety



                                  To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com



                                  Date: Sunday, February 24, 2013, 11:05 AM



                                  Vortex Burners



                                  Warning: All fan-blown burners have a greater risk of



                                  backfire—through the fan instead of proper combustion through the



                                  flame nozzle—than (properly built) naturally aspirated burners do.



                                  If you want the increased heat output of a powered burner, this



                                  possibility goes along with it.



                                  A fire ball from burn-back does the motor no good; it can burn your



                                  hands or face if you're careless enough to position them behind the



                                  fan.



                                  It is necessary to ignite the fuel/air mixture from the burner's



                                  forward end (in front of the flame nozzle), BEFORE STARTING THE FAN



                                  MOTOR. Never attempt to light the burner from its rear (through the



                                  fan). Do not expose a burner's fan area to heat or other ignition



                                  sources, and trap the burner securely in place before allowing fuel gas



                                  to enter it.



                                  Keep yourself well clear of the area behind the burner during its



                                  ignition and operation.



                                  During shutdown, stop the gas feed BEFORE STOPPING THE FAN MOTOR.



                                  The fan must be left running after shutting off the gas feed, until the



                                  heating equipment is completely cooled down and ready to be stored, or



                                  the burner must be removed from the equipment at shutdown. If the burner



                                  is removed, still shut off the gas feed first, and let the fan cool the



                                  burner to room temperature before cutting power to it.



                                  Fans installed on this burner series create some back pressure from the



                                  funnel area, which can pick up fuel gas, if the normal process of air



                                  entrainment is allowed to reverse; this can happen if the flame is



                                  blocked at the flame nozzle.



                                  Running stronger fan motors than recommended for a given burner



                                  increases back pressure, thus escalating the danger from ignoring the



                                  safety procedures given here.



                                  If the fan diameter is kept at no more than three times the mixing tube



                                  diameter, you greatly reduce back pressure. Longer funnel shapes hinder



                                  forward vortical force less than shorter funnel shapes, also reducing



                                  back pressure. Even the best fan burner design can suffer a fire through



                                  the fan, if you physically block its flame while the burner is running



                                  (ex. allowing the burner to fall over on its nozzle during operation).



                                  Secure the burner in position before running it.



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]












                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Wonk
                                  I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong. Most who are casting don t
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Feb 25, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.
                                    Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.

                                    wonk

                                    --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.
                                    >
                                    > Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)
                                    > Mikey
                                  • mikey98118
                                    I agree. Wonk, The if built properly has to do with NA burners built so poorly that they are inclined to back-fire, for instance when the nozzle diameter to
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Feb 25, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I agree. Wonk,
                                      The "if built properly" has to do with NA burners built so poorly that they are inclined to back-fire, for instance when the nozzle diameter to mixing tube ratio isn't great enough to insure sufficient pressure drop in the nozzle. Wow! that takes me back a dozen years to Dr Frankenburner's early lab work.
                                      Mikey

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Wonk <tiwonk@...>
                                      To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 20:11:13 -0000 (UTC)
                                      Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Vortex burner safety













                                      I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.


                                      Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.



                                      wonk



                                      --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.


                                      >


                                      > Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)


                                      > Mikey








                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • David Patterson
                                      Wonk I wasn t poo pooing safety. But the safety rules could apply to all burner/furnace/forge types. For me working at home alone it s:   Cold start 1 attach
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Feb 25, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Wonk I wasn't poo pooing safety. But the safety rules could apply to all burner/furnace/forge types.
                                        For me working at home alone it's:
                                         
                                        Cold start
                                        1 attach burner solid (mine is a tight fit with a set screw)
                                        2 place news print under crucible then fill with metal
                                        3 make sure area around furnace is clear of obstacles
                                        4 steel pan under furnace (cast over concrete so my pan is big enough to hold the entire melt)
                                        5 light furnace (I don't light the burner, remember 'unit')
                                          a- put small news print between the crucible and and start it burning
                                          b- slowly turn on the gas, when lit bring up the temp up slow (watch the steam)
                                          c- when the furnace is hot (no steam and starting to glow) turn on blower and adjust for your metal type and melt time.
                                        6 go do what you need to do, but never more than a few steps from the furnace
                                         
                                        Shut down
                                        1 turn off gas
                                        2 turn off blower
                                         
                                        All that would be after you've proven your burner/furnace is of stable design.
                                         
                                        Safety to me is procedure and repetition

                                        Other than a  Safety Note about the dangers of this hobby and the fact the author(Mike in the case). is not responsible if the builder can not build it per drawing or deviates from said drawings, the author is not responsible for any injuries.
                                         
                                        But I don't have to deal with lawyers, Mike does. He's a braver man than me to take on this challange.

                                        Dave Patterson
                                        odd_kins@...
                                        http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html

                                        --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Wonk <tiwonk@...> wrote:


                                        From: Wonk <tiwonk@...>
                                        Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Vortex burner safety
                                        To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 12:11 PM



                                         



                                        I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.
                                        Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.

                                        wonk

                                        --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of
                                        maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.
                                        >
                                        > Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)
                                        > Mikey








                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Wonk
                                        Oh I wasn t pointing at you, but if the shoe fits! What I m saying your furnace and burner can be designed for all the stability in the world and in an instant
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Feb 25, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Oh I wasn't pointing at you, but if the shoe fits!

                                          What I'm saying your furnace and burner can be designed for all the stability in the world and in an instant things can change. the only safe fire is one that is out and cold!

                                          End of story

                                          Wonk

                                          --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, David Patterson <odd_kins@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Wonk I wasn't poo pooing safety. But the safety rules could apply to all burner/furnace/forge types.
                                          > For me working at home alone it's:
                                          >  
                                          > Cold start
                                          > 1 attach burner solid (mine is a tight fit with a set screw)
                                          > 2 place news print under crucible then fill with metal
                                          > 3 make sure area around furnace is clear of obstacles
                                          > 4 steel pan under furnace (cast over concrete so my pan is big enough to hold the entire melt)
                                          > 5 light furnace (I don't light the burner, remember 'unit')
                                          >   a- put small news print between the crucible and and start it burning
                                          >   b- slowly turn on the gas, when lit bring up the temp up slow (watch the steam)
                                          >   c- when the furnace is hot (no steam and starting to glow) turn on blower and adjust for your metal type and melt time.
                                          > 6 go do what you need to do, but never more than a few steps from the furnace
                                          >  
                                          > Shut down
                                          > 1 turn off gas
                                          > 2 turn off blower
                                          >  
                                          > All that would be after you've proven your burner/furnace is of stable design.
                                          >  
                                          > Safety to me is procedure and repetition
                                          >
                                          > Other than a  Safety Note about the dangers of this hobby and the fact the author(Mike in the case). is not responsible if the builder can not build it per drawing or deviates from said drawings, the author is not responsible for any injuries.
                                          >  
                                          > But I don't have to deal with lawyers, Mike does. He's a braver man than me to take on this challange.
                                          >
                                          > Dave Patterson
                                          > odd_kins@...
                                          > http://home.comcast.net/~oddkins/foundry_home.html
                                          >
                                          > --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Wonk <tiwonk@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: Wonk <tiwonk@...>
                                          > Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Vortex burner safety
                                          > To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 12:11 PM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I find those who poo poo safety quotes or instructions are usually the ones that end up surprised when something goes horibly wrong.
                                          > Most who are casting don't stand and watch the furnace while melting and are busy ramming or doing other things, blacksmiths pound while the fire is going so the chances of a flame out or a backfire is very possible. Saying "if built properly" means nothing when a fire ball fly across the room.
                                          >
                                          > wonk
                                          >
                                          > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@ wrote: Probably I should admit that I write on the casting sites because all my close friends are casting enthusiasts; it's become a habit. I'm an equipment enthusiast, and started out writing about burners on the blacksmith sites, where most of my burners get used. But, this isn't always very fair to the readers here. I'll have to keep the furnaces more in mind. Another difference in viewpoints is that I'm a professional author; what I discuss is going into my texts, and my take on safety issues springs from the need to avoid being dragged into a courtroom, where practical good sense has little to do with anything. When it comes to safety quotes CYA is the number one rule. So, general burner safety is the first thing written about in the Vortex burner chapter. Any difference in safety procedures for burners within furnaces, or within ceramic chip forges and brazing stations will be listed as part of
                                          > maintenance, tuning, start up, and shutdown procedures, just as they are with every other burner in my book. The chapter on ducted fan-blown burners will only discuss safety procedures for burners within equipment because they aren't found in use outside of heating equipment, as my designs are built into it.
                                          > >
                                          > > Otherwise, I'd probably have to give admonitions against detaching the burner, using for a winter butt warmer, and setting ones ass on fire :-)
                                          > > Mikey
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.