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Re: [hobbicast] Brass casting-update

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  • Nick Andrews
    Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for windmills. Nick A ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
      Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
      windmills.

      Nick A
      On Nov 23, 2012 6:18 PM, "Rupert" <rwenig2@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Hello Guys,
      > I posted a picture of the final result ready to go to work. The picture
      > is in my folder or the direct link is
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast/photos/recent/740537477/view>
      >
      > Rupert
      >
      > --
      >
      > yvt
      >
      > Rupert Wenig
      > Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
      >
      > email: rwenig2@...
      >
      > http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rupert
      Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most were driven by small
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
        Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
        submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most were
        driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
        1/2-2 HP.
        These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
        my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
        jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the trailer
        around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.

        Rupert

        On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
        > Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
        > windmills.
        >
        > Nick A

        --

        yvt

        Rupert Wenig
        Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

        email: rwenig2@...

        http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
      • StoneTool
        These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately. They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For stock watering a pump
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
          These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
          They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
          stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
          little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
          screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
          amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
          fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
          efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
          a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
          should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
          Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
          must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
          do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
          and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
          in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
          serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
          or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
          start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
          setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
          simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
          sub zero temps without a person in attendance.


          Howard

          On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
          > Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
          > submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most were
          > driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
          > 1/2-2 HP.
          > These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
          > my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
          > jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the trailer
          > around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
          >
          > Rupert
          >
          > On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
          >> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
          >> windmills.
          >>
          >> Nick A
        • Nick Andrews
          The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part of the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent. You need a big
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
            The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part of
            the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
            You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter out
            as needed in drinker tubs...


            On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
            > They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
            > stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
            > little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
            > screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
            > amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
            > fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
            > efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
            > a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
            > should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
            > Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
            > must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
            > do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
            > and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
            > in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
            > serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
            > or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
            > start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
            > setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
            > simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
            > sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
            >
            > Howard
            >
            >
            > On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
            > > Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
            > > submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most were
            > > driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
            > > 1/2-2 HP.
            > > These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
            > > my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
            > > jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the trailer
            > > around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
            > >
            > > Rupert
            > >
            > > On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
            > >> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
            > >> windmills.
            > >>
            > >> Nick A
            >
            >
            >



            --
            Nick A

            "You know what I wish? I wish that all the scum of the world had but a
            single throat, and I had my hands about it..." Rorschach, 1975

            "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
            safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical
            Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

            "Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the
            streets after them." Bill Vaughan

            "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."
            Plato


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Wonk
            Rupert, Your work is nice looking as always,Thanks for sharing! Wonk
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
              Rupert,

              Your work is nice looking as always,Thanks for sharing!

              Wonk

              --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Rupert <rwenig2@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Guys,
              > I posted a picture of the final result ready to go to work. The picture
              > is in my folder or the direct link is
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast/photos/recent/740537477/view>
              >
              > Rupert
              >
              > --
              >
              > yvt
              >
              > Rupert Wenig
              > Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
              >
              > email: rwenig2@...
              >
              > http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
              >
            • StoneTool
              Nick: Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a pump jack on
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 24, 2012
                Nick:
                Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back to
                mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of power
                loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load, and
                you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out there,
                and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                right.
                The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                effective, cheap, and reliable.


                Howard

                On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                > The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part of
                > the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                > You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter out
                > as needed in drinker tubs...
                >
                >
                > On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                >
                >> **
                >>
                >>
                >> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                >> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                >> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                >> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                >> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                >> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                >> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                >> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                >> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                >> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                >> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                >> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                >> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                >> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                >> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                >> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                >> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                >> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                >> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                >> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                >> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                >>
                >> Howard
                >>
                >>
                >> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                >>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                >>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most were
                >>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                >>> 1/2-2 HP.
                >>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
                >>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                >>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the trailer
                >>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                >>>
                >>> Rupert
                >>>
                >>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                >>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                >>>> windmills.
                >>>>
                >>>> Nick A
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
              • Nick Andrews
                Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is used most of the
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 24, 2012
                  Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an
                  autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is used
                  most of the time when converting from a windmill. But if the gearbox goes
                  out it is likely cheaper to convert than replace it. Seen both steel and
                  fiberglass sucker rods. Ranchers are resourceful people. Well, the
                  successful ones are...

                  Nick A
                  On Nov 24, 2012 9:05 AM, "StoneTool" <owly@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Nick:
                  > Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                  > pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                  > pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                  > patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                  > conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back to
                  > mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of power
                  > loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load, and
                  > you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                  > an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                  > efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                  > water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                  > pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                  > equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                  > like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out there,
                  > and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                  > way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                  > start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                  > out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                  > right.
                  > The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                  > not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                  > effective, cheap, and reliable.
                  >
                  > Howard
                  >
                  > On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                  > > The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part of
                  > > the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                  > > You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter out
                  > > as needed in drinker tubs...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> **
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                  > >> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                  > >> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                  > >> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                  > >> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                  > >> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                  > >> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                  > >> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                  > >> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                  > >> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                  > >> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                  > >> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                  > >> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                  > >> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                  > >> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                  > >> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                  > >> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                  > >> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                  > >> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                  > >> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                  > >> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                  > >>
                  > >> Howard
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                  > >>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                  > >>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most
                  > were
                  > >>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                  > >>> 1/2-2 HP.
                  > >>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
                  > >>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                  > >>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the
                  > trailer
                  > >>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Rupert
                  > >>>
                  > >>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                  > >>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                  > >>>> windmills.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> Nick A
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • StoneTool
                  Nick: I don t honestly see how a submersible pump makes a better autonomous system when there is not grid power than a cylinder pump........... As I
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 24, 2012
                    Nick:
                    I don't honestly see how a submersible pump makes a better
                    "autonomous system" when there is not grid power than a cylinder
                    pump........... As I mentioned, I was using auto start Kohler engine
                    systems that ran on propane and started with a float 35 years ago.
                    Extremely reliable, they start and stop, on their own and rarely have
                    any problems.

                    The best sucker rods were spruce....... it floats........... and
                    that is an advantage.

                    Howard

                    On 11/24/2012 03:48 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                    > Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an
                    > autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is used
                    > most of the time when converting from a windmill. But if the gearbox goes
                    > out it is likely cheaper to convert than replace it. Seen both steel and
                    > fiberglass sucker rods. Ranchers are resourceful people. Well, the
                    > successful ones are...
                    >
                    > Nick A
                    > On Nov 24, 2012 9:05 AM, "StoneTool"<owly@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> **
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Nick:
                    >> Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                    >> pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                    >> pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                    >> patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                    >> conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back to
                    >> mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of power
                    >> loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load, and
                    >> you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                    >> an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                    >> efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                    >> water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                    >> pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                    >> equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                    >> like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out there,
                    >> and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                    >> way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                    >> start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                    >> out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                    >> right.
                    >> The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                    >> not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                    >> effective, cheap, and reliable.
                    >>
                    >> Howard
                    >>
                    >> On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                    >>> The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part of
                    >>> the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                    >>> You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter out
                    >>> as needed in drinker tubs...
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>>> **
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                    >>>> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                    >>>> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                    >>>> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                    >>>> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                    >>>> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                    >>>> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                    >>>> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                    >>>> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                    >>>> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                    >>>> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                    >>>> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                    >>>> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                    >>>> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                    >>>> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                    >>>> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                    >>>> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                    >>>> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                    >>>> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                    >>>> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                    >>>> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Howard
                    >>>>
                    >>>>
                    >>>> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                    >>>>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                    >>>>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most
                    >> were
                    >>>>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                    >>>>> 1/2-2 HP.
                    >>>>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
                    >>>>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                    >>>>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the
                    >> trailer
                    >>>>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> Rupert
                    >>>>>
                    >>>>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                    >>>>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                    >>>>>> windmills.
                    >>>>>>
                    >>>>>> Nick A
                    >>>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Nick Andrews
                    Solar power panels and sub pumps where it s not too deep is about as simple as it gets. I missed the auto-start Kohler part, but that sounds like a good
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 25, 2012
                      Solar power panels and sub pumps where it's not too deep is about as simple
                      as it gets. I missed the auto-start Kohler part, but that sounds like a
                      good system also where you can install a pump jack system. Only problem is
                      the need to transport the unit and then fuel out there. But that is
                      manageable in many areas that are not too remote. I think some of the
                      suckers we found were redwood because they don't rot.


                      On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Nick:
                      > I don't honestly see how a submersible pump makes a better
                      > "autonomous system" when there is not grid power than a cylinder
                      > pump........... As I mentioned, I was using auto start Kohler engine
                      > systems that ran on propane and started with a float 35 years ago.
                      > Extremely reliable, they start and stop, on their own and rarely have
                      > any problems.
                      >
                      > The best sucker rods were spruce....... it floats........... and
                      > that is an advantage.
                      >
                      > Howard
                      >
                      >
                      > On 11/24/2012 03:48 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                      > > Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an
                      > > autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is
                      > used
                      > > most of the time when converting from a windmill. But if the gearbox goes
                      > > out it is likely cheaper to convert than replace it. Seen both steel and
                      > > fiberglass sucker rods. Ranchers are resourceful people. Well, the
                      > > successful ones are...
                      > >
                      > > Nick A
                      > > On Nov 24, 2012 9:05 AM, "StoneTool"<owly@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> **
                      >
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >> Nick:
                      > >> Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                      > >> pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                      > >> pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                      > >> patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                      > >> conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back to
                      > >> mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of power
                      > >> loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load, and
                      > >> you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                      > >> an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                      > >> efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                      > >> water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                      > >> pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                      > >> equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                      > >> like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out there,
                      > >> and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                      > >> way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                      > >> start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                      > >> out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                      > >> right.
                      > >> The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                      > >> not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                      > >> effective, cheap, and reliable.
                      > >>
                      > >> Howard
                      > >>
                      > >> On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                      > >>> The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part
                      > of
                      > >>> the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                      > >>> You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter
                      > out
                      > >>> as needed in drinker tubs...
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                      > >>>
                      > >>>> **
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                      > >>>> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                      > >>>> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                      > >>>> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                      > >>>> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                      > >>>> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                      > >>>> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                      > >>>> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                      > >>>> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                      > >>>> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                      > >>>> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                      > >>>> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                      > >>>> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                      > >>>> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                      > >>>> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                      > >>>> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                      > >>>> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                      > >>>> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                      > >>>> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                      > >>>> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                      > >>>> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> Howard
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                      > >>>>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                      > >>>>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most
                      > >> were
                      > >>>>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                      > >>>>> 1/2-2 HP.
                      > >>>>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together
                      > by
                      > >>>>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                      > >>>>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the
                      > >> trailer
                      > >>>>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> Rupert
                      > >>>>>
                      > >>>>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                      > >>>>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                      > >>>>>> windmills.
                      > >>>>>>
                      > >>>>>> Nick A
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > >
                      > > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                      > > this list does not accept attachments.
                      > >
                      > > Files area and list services are at:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                      > >
                      > > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                      > > check out these two affiliated sites:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                      > >
                      > > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                      > > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                      > >
                      > > List Owner:
                      > > owly@...
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      Nick A

                      "You know what I wish? I wish that all the scum of the world had but a
                      single throat, and I had my hands about it..." Rorschach, 1975

                      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
                      safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical
                      Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

                      "Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the
                      streets after them." Bill Vaughan

                      "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."
                      Plato


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Nick Andrews
                      I guess we should just be glad we have options these days! Nick A ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 25, 2012
                        I guess we should just be glad we have options these days!

                        Nick A
                        On Nov 25, 2012 6:40 PM, "StoneTool" <owly@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > Nick:
                        > I'm all for solar panels......... I do however believe that using a
                        > counterbalanced grasshopper type pump run from a DC motor you will pump
                        > more water than you will with a submersible due the higher
                        > efficiency.......... You can't beat the simplicity of dropping a pump
                        > down the well on the end of a piece of flexible plastic pipe though.
                        > It's quick, clean and simple. They do have limitations on depth. If
                        > I'm not mistaken at one time you had to put boosters inline if you went
                        > beyond a certain depth. I've long been an advocate for solar pumps
                        > rather than remote generator setups. The up front cost is higher, but
                        > the operating and maintenance cost is much lower. It doesn't take long
                        > to break even.
                        >
                        > Howard
                        >
                        > On 11/25/2012 04:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                        > > Solar power panels and sub pumps where it's not too deep is about as
                        > simple
                        > > as it gets. I missed the auto-start Kohler part, but that sounds like a
                        > > good system also where you can install a pump jack system. Only problem
                        > is
                        > > the need to transport the unit and then fuel out there. But that is
                        > > manageable in many areas that are not too remote. I think some of the
                        > > suckers we found were redwood because they don't rot.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> **
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Nick:
                        > >> I don't honestly see how a submersible pump makes a better
                        > >> "autonomous system" when there is not grid power than a cylinder
                        > >> pump........... As I mentioned, I was using auto start Kohler engine
                        > >> systems that ran on propane and started with a float 35 years ago.
                        > >> Extremely reliable, they start and stop, on their own and rarely have
                        > >> any problems.
                        > >>
                        > >> The best sucker rods were spruce....... it floats........... and
                        > >> that is an advantage.
                        > >>
                        > >> Howard
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> On 11/24/2012 03:48 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                        > >>> Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an
                        > >>> autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is
                        > >> used
                        > >>> most of the time when converting from a windmill. But if the gearbox
                        > goes
                        > >>> out it is likely cheaper to convert than replace it. Seen both steel
                        > and
                        > >>> fiberglass sucker rods. Ranchers are resourceful people. Well, the
                        > >>> successful ones are...
                        > >>>
                        > >>> Nick A
                        > >>> On Nov 24, 2012 9:05 AM, "StoneTool"<owly@...> wrote:
                        > >>>
                        > >>>> **
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> Nick:
                        > >>>> Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                        > >>>> pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                        > >>>> pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                        > >>>> patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                        > >>>> conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back
                        > to
                        > >>>> mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of
                        > power
                        > >>>> loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load,
                        > and
                        > >>>> you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                        > >>>> an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                        > >>>> efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                        > >>>> water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                        > >>>> pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                        > >>>> equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                        > >>>> like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out
                        > there,
                        > >>>> and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                        > >>>> way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                        > >>>> start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                        > >>>> out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                        > >>>> right.
                        > >>>> The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                        > >>>> not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                        > >>>> effective, cheap, and reliable.
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> Howard
                        > >>>>
                        > >>>> On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                        > >>>>> The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part
                        > >> of
                        > >>>>> the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost
                        > non-existent.
                        > >>>>> You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter
                        > >> out
                        > >>>>> as needed in drinker tubs...
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                        > >>>>>
                        > >>>>>> **
                        > >>>>>>
                        > >>>>>>
                        > >>>>>> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                        > >>>>>> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                        > >>>>>> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                        > >>>>>> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                        > >>>>>> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                        > >>>>>> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                        > >>>>>> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                        > >>>>>> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                        > >>>>>> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                        > >>>>>> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                        > >>>>>> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod
                        > inside
                        > >>>>>> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers
                        > which
                        > >>>>>> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever
                        > either
                        > >>>>>> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new
                        > one
                        > >>>>>> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                        > >>>>>> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                        > >>>>>> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for
                        > auto
                        > >>>>>> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter
                        > generator
                        > >>>>>> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                        > >>>>>> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                        > >>>>>> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                        > >>>>>>
                        > >>>>>> Howard
                        > >>>>>>
                        > >>>>>>
                        > >>>>>> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                        > >>>>>>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before
                        > the
                        > >>>>>>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most
                        > >>>> were
                        > >>>>>>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type
                        > of 1
                        > >>>>>>> 1/2-2 HP.
                        > >>>>>>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put
                        > together
                        > >> by
                        > >>>>>>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps,
                        > pump
                        > >>>>>>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the
                        > >>>> trailer
                        > >>>>>>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                        > >>>>>>>
                        > >>>>>>> Rupert
                        > >>>>>>>
                        > >>>>>>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                        > >>>>>>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west
                        > for
                        > >>>>>>>> windmills.
                        > >>>>>>>>
                        > >>>>>>>> Nick A
                        > >>>>
                        > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>> ------------------------------------
                        > >>> For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                        > >>> this list does not accept attachments.
                        > >>>
                        > >>> Files area and list services are at:
                        > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                        > >>>
                        > >>> For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                        > >>> check out these two affiliated sites:
                        > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                        > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                        > >>>
                        > >>> Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                        > >>> http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                        > >>>
                        > >>> List Owner:
                        > >>> owly@...
                        > >>>
                        > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • StoneTool
                        Nick: I m all for solar panels......... I do however believe that using a counterbalanced grasshopper type pump run from a DC motor you will pump more water
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 25, 2012
                          Nick:
                          I'm all for solar panels......... I do however believe that using a
                          counterbalanced grasshopper type pump run from a DC motor you will pump
                          more water than you will with a submersible due the higher
                          efficiency.......... You can't beat the simplicity of dropping a pump
                          down the well on the end of a piece of flexible plastic pipe though.
                          It's quick, clean and simple. They do have limitations on depth. If
                          I'm not mistaken at one time you had to put boosters inline if you went
                          beyond a certain depth. I've long been an advocate for solar pumps
                          rather than remote generator setups. The up front cost is higher, but
                          the operating and maintenance cost is much lower. It doesn't take long
                          to break even.


                          Howard

                          On 11/25/2012 04:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                          > Solar power panels and sub pumps where it's not too deep is about as simple
                          > as it gets. I missed the auto-start Kohler part, but that sounds like a
                          > good system also where you can install a pump jack system. Only problem is
                          > the need to transport the unit and then fuel out there. But that is
                          > manageable in many areas that are not too remote. I think some of the
                          > suckers we found were redwood because they don't rot.
                          >
                          >
                          > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> **
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Nick:
                          >> I don't honestly see how a submersible pump makes a better
                          >> "autonomous system" when there is not grid power than a cylinder
                          >> pump........... As I mentioned, I was using auto start Kohler engine
                          >> systems that ran on propane and started with a float 35 years ago.
                          >> Extremely reliable, they start and stop, on their own and rarely have
                          >> any problems.
                          >>
                          >> The best sucker rods were spruce....... it floats........... and
                          >> that is an advantage.
                          >>
                          >> Howard
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> On 11/24/2012 03:48 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                          >>> Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an
                          >>> autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is
                          >> used
                          >>> most of the time when converting from a windmill. But if the gearbox goes
                          >>> out it is likely cheaper to convert than replace it. Seen both steel and
                          >>> fiberglass sucker rods. Ranchers are resourceful people. Well, the
                          >>> successful ones are...
                          >>>
                          >>> Nick A
                          >>> On Nov 24, 2012 9:05 AM, "StoneTool"<owly@...> wrote:
                          >>>
                          >>>> **
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Nick:
                          >>>> Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                          >>>> pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                          >>>> pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                          >>>> patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                          >>>> conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back to
                          >>>> mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of power
                          >>>> loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load, and
                          >>>> you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                          >>>> an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                          >>>> efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                          >>>> water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                          >>>> pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                          >>>> equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                          >>>> like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out there,
                          >>>> and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                          >>>> way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                          >>>> start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                          >>>> out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                          >>>> right.
                          >>>> The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                          >>>> not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                          >>>> effective, cheap, and reliable.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Howard
                          >>>>
                          >>>> On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                          >>>>> The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part
                          >> of
                          >>>>> the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                          >>>>> You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter
                          >> out
                          >>>>> as needed in drinker tubs...
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>> **
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                          >>>>>> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                          >>>>>> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                          >>>>>> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                          >>>>>> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                          >>>>>> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                          >>>>>> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                          >>>>>> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                          >>>>>> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                          >>>>>> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                          >>>>>> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                          >>>>>> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                          >>>>>> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                          >>>>>> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                          >>>>>> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                          >>>>>> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                          >>>>>> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                          >>>>>> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                          >>>>>> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                          >>>>>> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                          >>>>>> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Howard
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                          >>>>>>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                          >>>>>>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most
                          >>>> were
                          >>>>>>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                          >>>>>>> 1/2-2 HP.
                          >>>>>>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together
                          >> by
                          >>>>>>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                          >>>>>>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the
                          >>>> trailer
                          >>>>>>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Rupert
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                          >>>>>>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                          >>>>>>>> windmills.
                          >>>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>> Nick A
                          >>>>
                          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> ------------------------------------
                          >>> For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                          >>> this list does not accept attachments.
                          >>>
                          >>> Files area and list services are at:
                          >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                          >>>
                          >>> For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                          >>> check out these two affiliated sites:
                          >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                          >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                          >>>
                          >>> Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                          >>> http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                          >>>
                          >>> List Owner:
                          >>> owly@...
                          >>>
                          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
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