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Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?

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  • old_iron_oz
    Can anyone tell me where to buy collidal silica in Australia? It is the component for the slurry coating of ceramic shells in ceramic shell casting. Ta Ian
    Message 1 of 16 , May 6, 2012
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      Can anyone tell me where to buy collidal silica in Australia? It is the component for the slurry coating of ceramic shells in ceramic shell casting.
      Ta
      Ian
    • michael.a.porter@comcast.net
      You can find pure colloidal silica for sale through Amazon.com under that very name. Colloidal silica’s other names are “fumed silica” and “pyrogenic
      Message 2 of 16 , May 8, 2012
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        You can find pure colloidal silica for sale through Amazon.com under that very name. Colloidal silica’s other names are “fumed silica” and “pyrogenic silica”; it is a common food ingredient. With this open secret to assist your search, you should be able to find the product right there in Oz :-)
        These names will give you more results from search engines. It is also sold on eBay as “fishing fly floater.” Buying your “Rigidizer” this way will not only save you a ton of money on the product, but also on shipping costs, because colloidal silica weighs almost nothing. You can find food coloring in any grocery store. Finally, don't bother using chemially pure water; ritht out of the garden hose is good enough.

        Michael Porter (Gas Burners for Forges, Funaces, & Kilns)
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: old_iron_oz <old_iron_oz@...>
        To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, 06 May 2012 20:15:39 -0000 (UTC)
        Subject: [hobbicast] Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?





















        Can anyone tell me where to buy collidal silica in Australia? It is the component for the slurry coating of ceramic shells in ceramic shell casting.


        Ta


        Ian










        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • old_iron_oz
        Ok, Michael, that s a great lead. I ve found silica fume is used as a concrete additive, and in that form is available in bulk in Australia; also there is a
        Message 3 of 16 , May 9, 2012
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          Ok, Michael, that's a great lead. I've found 'silica fume' is used as a concrete additive, and in that form is available in bulk in Australia; also there is a supplier here of food-grade 'pyrogenic silica' manufactured in Germany by Wacker Group. Presumably since this stuff appears in everything from milkshakes to toothpaste to cosmetics to cat litter and many more besides, it should be available via other industry suppliers here in Australia too, but none that Google found.

          So anyway, because I am new to this, two further questions stand out:
          1. Do I have to watch out for particle size?
          2. When I buy my sack of fumed silica powder, how do I mix it correctly to turn it into a colloid that will work well for building the ceramic shell?
        • Manfred
          The MSDS states to avoid ingestion. That sounds like something I would not want added to my food. :-)
          Message 4 of 16 , May 9, 2012
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            The MSDS states to avoid ingestion. That sounds like something I would not want added to my food. :-)
            --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, michael.a.porter@... wrote:
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            > You can find pure colloidal silica for sale through Amazon.com under that very name. Colloidal silica’s other names are “fumed silica” and “pyrogenic silica”; it is a common food ingredient. With this open secret to assist your search, you should be able to find the product right there in Oz :-)
            >
            >
            > Michael Porter (Gas Burners for Forges, Funaces, & Kilns)
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: old_iron_oz <old_iron_oz@...>
            > To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sun, 06 May 2012 20:15:39 -0000 (UTC)
            > Subject: [hobbicast] Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?
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            > Can anyone tell me where to buy collidal silica in Australia? It is the component for the slurry coating of ceramic shells in ceramic shell casting.
            >
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            > Ta
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            > Ian
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          • old_iron_oz
            Better avoid the thickshakes (thixotropic shakes?) at McDonalds then.
            Message 5 of 16 , May 9, 2012
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              Better avoid the thickshakes (thixotropic shakes?) at McDonalds then.

              --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Manfred" <no1vixenfanau@...> wrote:
              >
              > The MSDS states to avoid ingestion. That sounds like something I would not want added to my food. :-)
            • michael.a.porter@comcast.net
              Old Iron in Oz,: Thanks right back at you. I will use what you just taught me about suppliers there. Believe it or not, finding such facts ain t easy; not easy
              Message 6 of 16 , May 10, 2012
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                Old Iron in Oz,:

                Thanks right back at you. I will use what you just taught me about suppliers there. Believe it or not, finding such facts ain't easy; not easy at all.

                You asked:

                1. "Do I have to watch out for particle size?"

                No; colloidal particles are by definition light enough to remain suspended in water. As to larger particles; they fall out of suspension, and collect on the container's bottom. Years back, while doing experiments with ITC-100 (infrared reflective coating), I deliberately mixed some into a jar of water, and watched the coarser particles fall out of suspension; then did that with a whole pint of the stuff. After painting the colloidal portion on a forge interior, it went from orange-yellow to yellow-white; indicating a big lift in interior temperatures. The change was because, the finer the particle size the higher the percentage of reflected light. When I read the phrase "up to" in ITC-100's product description, I started checking. Don't forget some "colloidal" food coloring; it really helps in judging penetration.


                2." When I buy my sack of fumed silica powder, how do I mix it correctly to turn it into a colloid that will work well for building the ceramic shell?"

                Just keep dumping the colloidal silica into a jug of water as long as it will remain in suspension, or until it starts to thicken (the biggest advantage of colloidal silica over water glass is its ability to penetrate ceramic fiber well). Please, don't think of this layer as a "shell"; it is only a support structure.

                Soooo...what does we do with the rest of the colloidal silica, 'ey matey?
                Why, we uses it as a braugh bit o' binder 'ta mix with some kaolin clay (powdered form from a local potter's supply), and tosses in some left over fine zirconia powder that we bought 'ta mix with a dab of the clay powder that we's usin' as a binder for the zirconia in our homemade IR reflective coating, which we is paintin' over the ceramic shell that we's coatin' (1/8" thick) over the rigidified (what a jawbreaker) ceramic fiber (1/2" to 3/4" thick) after we cures it in the fire till it's nice and hard. We does the same to the shell coating before paintin' on a relfective coating.

                Of coarse, you needn't go to all that bother, but if you consider the construction of a typical surf board, the point of it all should become clear. Besides, you seldom have such an elegant (in the engineering sense) opportunity to get so much milage out of leftovers :-)
                Mikey

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: old_iron_oz <old_iron_oz@...>
                To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wed, 09 May 2012 09:56:47 -0000 (UTC)
                Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?





















































                Ok, Michael, that's a great lead. I've found 'silica fume' is used as a concrete additive, and in that form is available in bulk in Australia; also there is a supplier here of food-grade 'pyrogenic silica' manufactured in Germany by Wacker Group. Presumably since this stuff appears in everything from milkshakes to toothpaste to cosmetics to cat litter and many more besides, it should be available via other industry suppliers here in Australia too, but none that Google found.



                So anyway, because I am new to this, two further questions stand out:


                1. Do I have to watch out for particle size?


                2. When I buy my sack of fumed silica powder, how do I mix it correctly to turn it into a colloid that will work well for building the ceramic shell?


















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • michael.a.porter@comcast.net
                That Mikey is such a sneak! He knows full well that them leftovers is goin to multiply...why he do dat? Well, ya must a heard of the nine diameters rule a
                Message 7 of 16 , May 10, 2012
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                  That Mikey is such a sneak! He knows full well that them leftovers is goin' to multiply...why he do 'dat? Well, ya must a heard of the "nine diameters" rule a thumb, yeah? This is just another case of the "down to the deep end of the pool" Mikey's rule of thumb. Never trust a scallywag; that's what I say.

                  Dr. Frankenburner
                  P.S. This is not a case of multiple personality disorder; it's just a simple case of multiple facets of a cracked personality.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: michael a porter <michael.a.porter@...>
                  To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, 10 May 2012 16:35:23 -0000 (UTC)
                  Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?





















































                  Old Iron in Oz,:



                  Thanks right back at you. I will use what you just taught me about suppliers there. Believe it or not, finding such facts ain't easy; not easy at all.



                  You asked:



                  1. "Do I have to watch out for particle size?"



                  No; colloidal particles are by definition light enough to remain suspended in water. As to larger particles; they fall out of suspension, and collect on the container's bottom. Years back, while doing experiments with ITC-100 (infrared reflective coating), I deliberately mixed some into a jar of water, and watched the coarser particles fall out of suspension; then did that with a whole pint of the stuff. After painting the colloidal portion on a forge interior, it went from orange-yellow to yellow-white; indicating a big lift in interior temperatures. The change was because, the finer the particle size the higher the percentage of reflected light. When I read the phrase "up to" in ITC-100's product description, I started checking. Don't forget some "colloidal" food coloring; it really helps in judging penetration.



                  2." When I buy my sack of fumed silica powder, how do I mix it correctly to turn it into a colloid that will work well for building the ceramic shell?"



                  Just keep dumping the colloidal silica into a jug of water as long as it will remain in suspension, or until it starts to thicken (the biggest advantage of colloidal silica over water glass is its ability to penetrate ceramic fiber well). Please, don't think of this layer as a "shell"; it is only a support structure.



                  Soooo...what does we do with the rest of the colloidal silica, 'ey matey?


                  Why, we uses it as a braugh bit o' binder 'ta mix with some kaolin clay (powdered form from a local potter's supply), and tosses in some left over fine zirconia powder that we bought 'ta mix with a dab of the clay powder that we's usin' as a binder for the zirconia in our homemade IR reflective coating, which we is paintin' over the ceramic shell that we's coatin' (1/8" thick) over the rigidified (what a jawbreaker) ceramic fiber (1/2" to 3/4" thick) after we cures it in the fire till it's nice and hard. We does the same to the shell coating before paintin' on a relfective coating.



                  Of coarse, you needn't go to all that bother, but if you consider the construction of a typical surf board, the point of it all should become clear. Besides, you seldom have such an elegant (in the engineering sense) opportunity to get so much milage out of leftovers :-)


                  Mikey



                  ----- Original Message -----


                  From: old_iron_oz <old_iron_oz@...>


                  To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com


                  Sent: Wed, 09 May 2012 09:56:47 -0000 (UTC)


                  Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?



                  Ok, Michael, that's a great lead. I've found 'silica fume' is used as a concrete additive, and in that form is available in bulk in Australia; also there is a supplier here of food-grade 'pyrogenic silica' manufactured in Germany by Wacker Group. Presumably since this stuff appears in everything from milkshakes to toothpaste to cosmetics to cat litter and many more besides, it should be available via other industry suppliers here in Australia too, but none that Google found.



                  So anyway, because I am new to this, two further questions stand out:



                  1. Do I have to watch out for particle size?



                  2. When I buy my sack of fumed silica powder, how do I mix it correctly to turn it into a colloid that will work well for building the ceramic shell?



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Matthew Tinker
                  Micky, Sorry to be a bore, but I m perplexed! Sounds like another case of or common language that divides us! OK, from what I understood, your making heat
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 10, 2012
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                    Micky,

                    Sorry to be a bore, but I'm perplexed! Sounds like another case of or common language that divides us! OK, from what I understood, your making heat resistant coatings that aren't a "shell"; it is only a support structure. (sounds medical) Not sure I follow the difference.

                    I'm very interested in this whole process, as ITC-100 Is very hard to find here In France (long time ex-pat Brit) the nearest supplier that I have found is in Ireland cost an arm and a leg! What is fine zirconia powder, sounds sci-fi, (What sort of place sells it?) Kaolin in powdered form is easy, (sigh of relief) powdered porcelain clay. What quantity is "and tosses in some left over" not sure I follow the proportions.

                    I do know how a surf board is built, which is positive!

                    regards, Matthew


                     
                    Matthew TINKER
                    CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519


                    ________________________________


                    Old Iron in Oz,:

                    Thanks right back at you. I will use what you just taught me about suppliers there. Believe it or not, finding such facts ain't easy; not easy at all.

                    You asked:

                    1. "Do I have to watch out for particle size?"

                    No; colloidal particles are by definition light enough to remain suspended in water. As to larger particles; they fall out of suspension, and collect on the container's bottom. Years back, while doing experiments with ITC-100 (infrared reflective coating), I deliberately mixed some into a jar of water, and watched the coarser particles fall out of suspension; then did that with a whole pint of the stuff. After painting the colloidal portion on a forge interior, it went from orange-yellow to yellow-white; indicating a big lift in interior temperatures. The change was because, the finer the particle size the higher the percentage of reflected light. When I read the phrase "up to" in ITC-100's product description, I started checking. Don't forget some "colloidal" food coloring; it really helps in judging penetration.

                    2." When I buy my sack of fumed silica powder, how do I mix it correctly to turn it into a colloid that will work well for building the ceramic shell?"

                    Just keep dumping the colloidal silica into a jug of water as long as it will remain in suspension, or until it starts to thicken (the biggest advantage of colloidal silica over water glass is its ability to penetrate ceramic fiber well). Please, don't think of this layer as a "shell"; it is only a support structure.

                    Soooo...what does we do with the rest of the colloidal silica, 'ey matey?

                    Why, we uses it as a braugh bit o' binder 'ta mix with some kaolin clay (powdered form from a local potter's supply), and tosses in some left over fine zirconia powder that we bought 'ta mix with a dab of the clay powder that we's usin' as a binder for the zirconia in our homemade IR reflective coating, which we is paintin' over the ceramic shell that we's coatin' (1/8" thick) over the rigidified (what a jawbreaker) ceramic fiber (1/2" to 3/4" thick) after we cures it in the fire till it's nice and hard. We does the same to the shell coating before paintin' on a relfective coating.

                    Of coarse, you needn't go to all that bother, but if you consider the construction of a typical surf board, the point of it all should become clear. Besides, you seldom have such an elegant (in the engineering sense) opportunity to get so much milage out of leftovers :-)

                    Mikey

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                  • michael.a.porter@comcast.net
                    Matthew, It most certainly is a case of language dividing us, but not in any colloquial sense. I m sure we ve all had to learn the facts of life on more than
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 10, 2012
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                      Matthew,
                      It most certainly is a case of language dividing us, but not in any colloquial sense. I'm sure we've all had to "learn the facts of life" on more than one sad occasion. One of those unpleasant realities has to do with technical language, which is produced much less by technicians, than by manufacturer's sales staffs. You're not alone when confused and frustrated by technical terms. I was surprised by the volume of complaints my first book generated on that score; it was simplified to the furthest extent of my ability, but contained lots of common tech terms.

                      But here's the ugly little secret; when it comes to technical terms we are all constrained by the need to actually buy products. At such a point we have to play by the manufacturer's (and therefore the retailer's) rules. Especially here in America, the customer is pampered (more like jollied along--before the sale). "Have it your way" and "the customer is always right" are familiar little sales jingles. Well, that all stops cold once you enter a welding supply dealership, and ask to purchase a particular MIG contact tip. Your sale isn't worth the clerk's time, and if you don't want to be told "I never heard of that" and shown the door, you'd better at least have your technical descriptions correct. Across the pond its going to be a different set of terms, but not a nicer set of rules.

                      Rigidizer, while sometimes alumina/silica based for products like Duraboard and Durablanket, is nearly always colloidal silica. Ceramic fibers are quite flexible; in fact, that's their whole point of existence. However, once we get them installed, their flexibility often becomes problematic (kind of like the morning after the night before). It is fine to say "add two extra inches to its length, and force the blanket in under pressure; that will hold it in place." Unfortunately, left that way, the product will eventually shrink, and then sag out of shape after extensive heating.

                      A layer of colloidal silica within the hot-face side of fiber blanket, locks the fibers into place against each other by gluing them together at every intersection. So, you gain a lot of structural integrity while preventing shrinkage to a large extent; both desirable outcomes.

                      What it does not do is seal the fiber blanket or board. Air and hot gases still go right through the fibers if blown directly at them. Both ceramic fiber and colloidal silica form cristabolite upon reaching 1600 degrees F. You can look up cristabolite under "suspected carcinogen." So, it's a good idea to seal the fiber surface with a solid refractory coating; when the coating thickness is deliberately extended to any given refractory product's limit (think brick mortar for instance), then that coating is referred to as a "shell" and adds its own element to structural and thermal integrity.

                      Happily, the rigidized layer supports the "shell" of ceramic sealant far better than a fiber product ever could (ceramic fiber products delaminate easily). At the same time the shell helps to greatly toughen the rigidized layer against impact damage. Finally, the solid refractory shell makes a much more stable base for the infrared reflector coating; a win-win situation all around.

                      ITC-100 basically consists of zirconia particles, and a binder, in a minimal amount of water. I have strong reason to believe that binder is kaolin clay. I have no idea where to find anything in France (Okay, so I can find the Eiffel Tower; but nothing smaller). Zirconia powder is the finely ground crystaline form of metallic zirconium. Try looking under Zirconium dioxide (ZrO2),

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...>
                      To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thu, 10 May 2012 18:11:35 -0000 (UTC)
                      Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?













































                      Micky,



                      Sorry to be a bore, but I'm perplexed! Sounds like another case of or common language that divides us! OK, from what I understood, your making heat resistant coatings that aren't a "shell"; it is only a support structure. (sounds medical) Not sure I follow the difference.



                      I'm very interested in this whole process, as ITC-100 Is very hard to find here In France (long time ex-pat Brit) the nearest supplier that I have found is in Ireland cost an arm and a leg! What is fine zirconia powder, sounds sci-fi, (What sort of place sells it?) Kaolin in powdered form is easy, (sigh of relief) powdered porcelain clay. What quantity is "and tosses in some left over" not sure I follow the proportions.



                      I do know how a surf board is built, which is positive!



                      regards, Matthew






                      Matthew TINKER


                      CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                      http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519" target=_blank>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519



                      ________________________________



                      Old Iron in Oz,:



                      Thanks right back at you. I will use what you just taught me about suppliers there. Believe it or not, finding such facts ain't easy; not easy at all.



                      You asked:



                      1. "Do I have to watch out for particle size?"



                      No; colloidal particles are by definition light enough to remain suspended in water. As to larger particles; they fall out of suspension, and collect on the container's bottom. Years back, while doing experiments with ITC-100 (infrared reflective coating), I deliberately mixed some into a jar of water, and watched the coarser particles fall out of suspension; then did that with a whole pint of the stuff. After painting the colloidal portion on a forge interior, it went from orange-yellow to yellow-white; indicating a big lift in interior temperatures. The change was because, the finer the particle size the higher the percentage of reflected light. When I read the phrase "up to" in ITC-100's product description, I started checking. Don't forget some "colloidal" food coloring; it really helps in judging penetration.



                      2." When I buy my sack of fumed silica powder, how do I mix it correctly to turn it into a colloid that will work well for building the ceramic shell?"



                      Just keep dumping the colloidal silica into a jug of water as long as it will remain in suspension, or until it starts to thicken (the biggest advantage of colloidal silica over water glass is its ability to penetrate ceramic fiber well). Please, don't think of this layer as a "shell"; it is only a support structure.



                      Soooo...what does we do with the rest of the colloidal silica, 'ey matey?



                      Why, we uses it as a braugh bit o' binder 'ta mix with some kaolin clay (powdered form from a local potter's supply), and tosses in some left over fine zirconia powder that we bought 'ta mix with a dab of the clay powder that we's usin' as a binder for the zirconia in our homemade IR reflective coating, which we is paintin' over the ceramic shell that we's coatin' (1/8" thick) over the rigidified (what a jawbreaker) ceramic fiber (1/2" to 3/4" thick) after we cures it in the fire till it's nice and hard. We does the same to the shell coating before paintin' on a relfective coating.



                      Of coarse, you needn't go to all that bother, but if you consider the construction of a typical surf board, the point of it all should become clear. Besides, you seldom have such an elegant (in the engineering sense) opportunity to get so much milage out of leftovers :-)



                      Mikey



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                    • Matthew Tinker
                      Micky, thank you for your explanation. I have an additional problem with the said facts of life which is I m dealing with this kind of search in another
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 10, 2012
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                        Micky,

                        thank you for your explanation. I have an additional problem with the said "facts of life"which is I'm dealing with this kind of search in another language, and in some cases one that I don't speak (like German, with somebody who speaks pigeon English {clever pigeons!})! This addition fact of life is compounded by there being far less "technical" materials available. An example, when I arrived over thirty years ago, phosphoric acid was available in an "auto body" suppliers it has been supplanted by expensive substitutes based........ on phosphoric acid. Extremely difficult to find, recently I found it on an recently opened amateur Geologist suppliers mail order site!

                        I can search the Web, telephone all over the world for free, if I know what something is used for, I have a better chance of finding it.

                        The other thing I was after was proportions, how much Kaolin to Zirconia? Kaolin is as I said easy to find. I'm surprised that it can be used as a binder as porcelain is fired at between 1350 & 1400°C.

                        I have and enjoyed your book. My only only difficulty is that I need a proportional diagram to determine size. Long Mig tips are not available here I bought them by mail order from the US, small gas taps seem to be used as hens teeth! It's all here now, just need the illusive "round touit".

                        An easy way to find the Eiffel tower on foot is to look at the television "antennas", they all point to it as it's where they broadcast from!

                        Thanks again for your reply,


                        Regards, Matthew

                         
                        Matthew TINKER
                        CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                        http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519


                        ________________________________
                        From: "michael.a.porter@..." <michael.a.porter@...>
                        To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, 10 May 2012, 23:13
                        Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?


                         
                        Matthew,
                        It most certainly is a case of language dividing us, but not in any colloquial sense. I'm sure we've all had to "learn the facts of life" on more than one sad occasion. One of those unpleasant realities has to do with technical language, which is produced much less by technicians, than by manufacturer's sales staffs. You're not alone when confused and frustrated by technical terms. I was surprised by the volume of complaints my first book generated on that score; it was simplified to the furthest extent of my ability, but contained lots of common tech terms.

                        But here's the ugly little secret; when it comes to technical terms we are all constrained by the need to actually buy products. At such a point we have to play by the manufacturer's (and therefore the retailer's) rules. Especially here in America, the customer is pampered (more like jollied along--before the sale). "Have it your way" and "the customer is always right" are familiar little sales jingles. Well, that all stops cold once you enter a welding supply dealership, and ask to purchase a particular MIG contact tip. Your sale isn't worth the clerk's time, and if you don't want to be told "I never heard of that" and shown the door, you'd better at least have your technical descriptions correct. Across the pond its going to be a different set of terms, but not a nicer set of rules.

                        Rigidizer, while sometimes alumina/silica based for products like Duraboard and Durablanket, is nearly always colloidal silica. Ceramic fibers are quite flexible; in fact, that's their whole point of existence. However, once we get them installed, their flexibility often becomes problematic (kind of like the morning after the night before). It is fine to say "add two extra inches to its length, and force the blanket in under pressure; that will hold it in place." Unfortunately, left that way, the product will eventually shrink, and then sag out of shape after extensive heating.

                        A layer of colloidal silica within the hot-face side of fiber blanket, locks the fibers into place against each other by gluing them together at every intersection. So, you gain a lot of structural integrity while preventing shrinkage to a large extent; both desirable outcomes.

                        What it does not do is seal the fiber blanket or board. Air and hot gases still go right through the fibers if blown directly at them. Both ceramic fiber and colloidal silica form cristabolite upon reaching 1600 degrees F. You can look up cristabolite under "suspected carcinogen." So, it's a good idea to seal the fiber surface with a solid refractory coating; when the coating thickness is deliberately extended to any given refractory product's limit (think brick mortar for instance), then that coating is referred to as a "shell" and adds its own element to structural and thermal integrity.

                        Happily, the rigidized layer supports the "shell" of ceramic sealant far better than a fiber product ever could (ceramic fiber products delaminate easily). At the same time the shell helps to greatly toughen the rigidized layer against impact damage. Finally, the solid refractory shell makes a much more stable base for the infrared reflector coating; a win-win situation all around.

                        ITC-100 basically consists of zirconia particles, and a binder, in a minimal amount of water. I have strong reason to believe that binder is kaolin clay. I have no idea where to find anything in France (Okay, so I can find the Eiffel Tower; but nothing smaller). Zirconia powder is the finely ground crystaline form of metallic zirconium. Try looking under Zirconium dioxide (ZrO2),

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...>
                        To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thu, 10 May 2012 18:11:35 -0000 (UTC)
                        Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?

                        Micky,

                        Sorry to be a bore, but I'm perplexed! Sounds like another case of or common language that divides us! OK, from what I understood, your making heat resistant coatings that aren't a "shell"; it is only a support structure. (sounds medical) Not sure I follow the difference.

                        I'm very interested in this whole process, as ITC-100 Is very hard to find here In France (long time ex-pat Brit) the nearest supplier that I have found is in Ireland cost an arm and a leg! What is fine zirconia powder, sounds sci-fi, (What sort of place sells it?) Kaolin in powdered form is easy, (sigh of relief) powdered porcelain clay. What quantity is "and tosses in some left over" not sure I follow the proportions.

                        I do know how a surf board is built, which is positive!

                        regards, Matthew

                        Matthew TINKER

                        CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                        http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519" target=_blank>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519

                        ________________________________

                        Old Iron in Oz,:

                        Thanks right back at you. I will use what you just taught me about suppliers there. Believe it or not, finding such facts ain't easy; not easy at all.

                        You asked:

                        1. "Do I have to watch out for particle size?"

                        No; colloidal particles are by definition light enough to remain suspended in water. As to larger particles; they fall out of suspension, and collect on the container's bottom. Years back, while doing experiments with ITC-100 (infrared reflective coating), I deliberately mixed some into a jar of water, and watched the coarser particles fall out of suspension; then did that with a whole pint of the stuff. After painting the colloidal portion on a forge interior, it went from orange-yellow to yellow-white; indicating a big lift in interior temperatures. The change was because, the finer the particle size the higher the percentage of reflected light. When I read the phrase "up to" in ITC-100's product description, I started checking. Don't forget some "colloidal" food coloring; it really helps in judging penetration.

                        2." When I buy my sack of fumed silica powder, how do I mix it correctly to turn it into a colloid that will work well for building the ceramic shell?"

                        Just keep dumping the colloidal silica into a jug of water as long as it will remain in suspension, or until it starts to thicken (the biggest advantage of colloidal silica over water glass is its ability to penetrate ceramic fiber well). Please, don't think of this layer as a "shell"; it is only a support structure.

                        Soooo...what does we do with the rest of the colloidal silica, 'ey matey?

                        Why, we uses it as a braugh bit o' binder 'ta mix with some kaolin clay (powdered form from a local potter's supply), and tosses in some left over fine zirconia powder that we bought 'ta mix with a dab of the clay powder that we's usin' as a binder for the zirconia in our homemade IR reflective coating, which we is paintin' over the ceramic shell that we's coatin' (1/8" thick) over the rigidified (what a jawbreaker) ceramic fiber (1/2" to 3/4" thick) after we cures it in the fire till it's nice and hard. We does the same to the shell coating before paintin' on a relfective coating.

                        Of coarse, you needn't go to all that bother, but if you consider the construction of a typical surf board, the point of it all should become clear. Besides, you seldom have such an elegant (in the engineering sense) opportunity to get so much milage out of leftovers :-)

                        Mikey

                        ----- Original Message -----

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                      • michael.a.porter@comcast.net
                        Matthew, I haven t tested the following method yet. But, I thought it would be of especial interest to you: To be tested: Orthophosphoric acid (commonly called
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 12, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Matthew,

                          I haven't tested the following method yet. But, I thought it would be of especial interest to you:


                          To be tested: Orthophosphoric acid (commonly called phosphoric acid), is not to be confused with polyphosphoric acids (thus the prefix “ortho”); it is highly soluble in water. Food grade phosphoric acid is available in small amounts from numerous on-line sources; at 78% to 85% pure concentrations, which can be diluted down to between 2% and 4% strength in water as a zirconia binding agent. Add the acid to the water before including zirconium dioxide or kaolin clay powder. Upon drying phosphoric acid forms a glassy layer on surfaces at room temperature. What the heck, you might even dispense with the clay content (but I wouldn't :-)
                          Mikey

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...>
                          To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Fri, 11 May 2012 06:02:30 -0000 (UTC)
                          Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?





























                          Micky,



                          thank you for your explanation. I have an additional problem with the said "facts of life"which is I'm dealing with this kind of search in another language, and in some cases one that I don't speak (like German, with somebody who speaks pigeon English {clever pigeons!})! This addition fact of life is compounded by there being far less "technical" materials available. An example, when I arrived over thirty years ago, phosphoric acid was available in an "auto body" suppliers it has been supplanted by expensive substitutes based........ on phosphoric acid. Extremely difficult to find, recently I found it on an recently opened amateur Geologist suppliers mail order site!



                          I can search the Web, telephone all over the world for free, if I know what something is used for, I have a better chance of finding it.



                          The other thing I was after was proportions, how much Kaolin to Zirconia? Kaolin is as I said easy to find. I'm surprised that it can be used as a binder as porcelain is fired at between 1350 & 1400°C.



                          I have and enjoyed your book. My only only difficulty is that I need a proportional diagram to determine size. Long Mig tips are not available here I bought them by mail order from the US, small gas taps seem to be used as hens teeth! It's all here now, just need the illusive "round touit".



                          An easy way to find the Eiffel tower on foot is to look at the television "antennas", they all point to it as it's where they broadcast from!



                          Thanks again for your reply,



                          Regards, Matthew






                          Matthew TINKER


                          CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                          http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519" target=_blank>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519



                          ________________________________


                          From: "michael.a.porter%40comcast.net" target=_blank>michael.a.porter@..." <michael.a.porter@...>


                          To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com


                          Sent: Thursday, 10 May 2012, 23:13


                          Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?







                          Matthew,


                          It most certainly is a case of language dividing us, but not in any colloquial sense. I'm sure we've all had to "learn the facts of life" on more than one sad occasion. One of those unpleasant realities has to do with technical language, which is produced much less by technicians, than by manufacturer's sales staffs. You're not alone when confused and frustrated by technical terms. I was surprised by the volume of complaints my first book generated on that score; it was simplified to the furthest extent of my ability, but contained lots of common tech terms.



                          But here's the ugly little secret; when it comes to technical terms we are all constrained by the need to actually buy products. At such a point we have to play by the manufacturer's (and therefore the retailer's) rules. Especially here in America, the customer is pampered (more like jollied along--before the sale). "Have it your way" and "the customer is always right" are familiar little sales jingles. Well, that all stops cold once you enter a welding supply dealership, and ask to purchase a particular MIG contact tip. Your sale isn't worth the clerk's time, and if you don't want to be told "I never heard of that" and shown the door, you'd better at least have your technical descriptions correct. Across the pond its going to be a different set of terms, but not a nicer set of rules.



                          Rigidizer, while sometimes alumina/silica based for products like Duraboard and Durablanket, is nearly always colloidal silica. Ceramic fibers are quite flexible; in fact, that's their whole point of existence. However, once we get them installed, their flexibility often becomes problematic (kind of like the morning after the night before). It is fine to say "add two extra inches to its length, and force the blanket in under pressure; that will hold it in place." Unfortunately, left that way, the product will eventually shrink, and then sag out of shape after extensive heating.



                          A layer of colloidal silica within the hot-face side of fiber blanket, locks the fibers into place against each other by gluing them together at every intersection. So, you gain a lot of structural integrity while preventing shrinkage to a large extent; both desirable outcomes.



                          What it does not do is seal the fiber blanket or board. Air and hot gases still go right through the fibers if blown directly at them. Both ceramic fiber and colloidal silica form cristabolite upon reaching 1600 degrees F. You can look up cristabolite under "suspected carcinogen." So, it's a good idea to seal the fiber surface with a solid refractory coating; when the coating thickness is deliberately extended to any given refractory product's limit (think brick mortar for instance), then that coating is referred to as a "shell" and adds its own element to structural and thermal integrity.



                          Happily, the rigidized layer supports the "shell" of ceramic sealant far better than a fiber product ever could (ceramic fiber products delaminate easily). At the same time the shell helps to greatly toughen the rigidized layer against impact damage. Finally, the solid refractory shell makes a much more stable base for the infrared reflector coating; a win-win situation all around.



                          ITC-100 basically consists of zirconia particles, and a binder, in a minimal amount of water. I have strong reason to believe that binder is kaolin clay. I have no idea where to find anything in France (Okay, so I can find the Eiffel Tower; but nothing smaller). Zirconia powder is the finely ground crystaline form of metallic zirconium. Try looking under Zirconium dioxide (ZrO2),



                          ----- Original Message -----


                          From: Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...>


                          To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com


                          Sent: Thu, 10 May 2012 18:11:35 -0000 (UTC)


                          Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?



                          Micky,



                          Sorry to be a bore, but I'm perplexed! Sounds like another case of or common language that divides us! OK, from what I understood, your making heat resistant coatings that aren't a "shell"; it is only a support structure. (sounds medical) Not sure I follow the difference.



                          I'm very interested in this whole process, as ITC-100 Is very hard to find here In France (long time ex-pat Brit) the nearest supplier that I have found is in Ireland cost an arm and a leg! What is fine zirconia powder, sounds sci-fi, (What sort of place sells it?) Kaolin in powdered form is easy, (sigh of relief) powdered porcelain clay. What quantity is "and tosses in some left over" not sure I follow the proportions.



                          I do know how a surf board is built, which is positive!



                          regards, Matthew



                          Matthew TINKER



                          CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                          http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519" target=_blank>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519



                          ________________________________



                          Old Iron in Oz,:



                          Thanks right back at you. I will use what you just taught me about suppliers there. Believe it or not, finding such facts ain't easy; not easy at all.



                          You asked:



                          1. "Do I have to watch out for particle size?"



                          No; colloidal particles are by definition light enough to remain suspended in water. As to larger particles; they fall out of suspension, and collect on the container's bottom. Years back, while doing experiments with ITC-100 (infrared reflective coating), I deliberately mixed some into a jar of water, and watched the coarser particles fall out of suspension; then did that with a whole pint of the stuff. After painting the colloidal portion on a forge interior, it went from orange-yellow to yellow-white; indicating a big lift in interior temperatures. The change was because, the finer the particle size the higher the percentage of reflected light. When I read the phrase "up to" in ITC-100's product description, I started checking. Don't forget some "colloidal" food coloring; it really helps in judging penetration.



                          2." When I buy my sack of fumed silica powder, how do I mix it correctly to turn it into a colloid that will work well for building the ceramic shell?"



                          Just keep dumping the colloidal silica into a jug of water as long as it will remain in suspension, or until it starts to thicken (the biggest advantage of colloidal silica over water glass is its ability to penetrate ceramic fiber well). Please, don't think of this layer as a "shell"; it is only a support structure.



                          Soooo...what does we do with the rest of the colloidal silica, 'ey matey?



                          Why, we uses it as a braugh bit o' binder 'ta mix with some kaolin clay (powdered form from a local potter's supply), and tosses in some left over fine zirconia powder that we bought 'ta mix with a dab of the clay powder that we's usin' as a binder for the zirconia in our homemade IR reflective coating, which we is paintin' over the ceramic shell that we's coatin' (1/8" thick) over the rigidified (what a jawbreaker) ceramic fiber (1/2" to 3/4" thick) after we cures it in the fire till it's nice and hard. We does the same to the shell coating before paintin' on a relfective coating.



                          Of coarse, you needn't go to all that bother, but if you consider the construction of a typical surf board, the point of it all should become clear. Besides, you seldom have such an elegant (in the engineering sense) opportunity to get so much milage out of leftovers :-)



                          Mikey



                          ----- Original Message -----



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                        • Matthew Tinker
                          Micky, I am very interested in your as yet untried recipe. I m having trouble finding places that sell zirconium dioxide on the web, it sound like an exotic
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 13, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Micky,

                            I am very interested in your as yet untried recipe. I'm having trouble finding places that sell zirconium dioxide on the web, it sound like an exotic material! Any clues, does it have another name prices?

                            My phosphoric acid should arrive tomorrow (78%), I bought it for rust removal, do I use it neat for treating rust?

                            Regards, Matthew


                             
                            Matthew TINKER
                            CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                            http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519


                            ________________________________
                            From: "michael.a.porter@..." <michael.a.porter@...>
                            To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, 12 May 2012, 20:09
                            Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?


                             
                            Matthew,

                            I haven't tested the following method yet. But, I thought it would be of especial interest to you:

                            To be tested: Orthophosphoric acid (commonly called phosphoric acid), is not to be confused with polyphosphoric acids (thus the prefix “ortho”); it is highly soluble in water. Food grade phosphoric acid is available in small amounts from numerous on-line sources; at 78% to 85% pure concentrations, which can be diluted down to between 2% and 4% strength in water as a zirconia binding agent. Add the acid to the water before including zirconium dioxide or kaolin clay powder. Upon drying phosphoric acid forms a glassy layer on surfaces at room temperature. What the heck, you might even dispense with the clay content (but I wouldn't :-)
                            Mikey

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...>
                            To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, 11 May 2012 06:02:30 -0000 (UTC)
                            Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?

                            Micky,

                            thank you for your explanation. I have an additional problem with the said "facts of life"which is I'm dealing with this kind of search in another language, and in some cases one that I don't speak (like German, with somebody who speaks pigeon English {clever pigeons!})! This addition fact of life is compounded by there being far less "technical" materials available. An example, when I arrived over thirty years ago, phosphoric acid was available in an "auto body" suppliers it has been supplanted by expensive substitutes based........ on phosphoric acid. Extremely difficult to find, recently I found it on an recently opened amateur Geologist suppliers mail order site!

                            I can search the Web, telephone all over the world for free, if I know what something is used for, I have a better chance of finding it.

                            The other thing I was after was proportions, how much Kaolin to Zirconia? Kaolin is as I said easy to find. I'm surprised that it can be used as a binder as porcelain is fired at between 1350 & 1400°C.

                            I have and enjoyed your book. My only only difficulty is that I need a proportional diagram to determine size. Long Mig tips are not available here I bought them by mail order from the US, small gas taps seem to be used as hens teeth! It's all here now, just need the illusive "round touit".

                            An easy way to find the Eiffel tower on foot is to look at the television "antennas", they all point to it as it's where they broadcast from!

                            Thanks again for your reply,

                            Regards, Matthew

                            Matthew TINKER

                            CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                            http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519" target=_blank>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519

                            ________________________________

                            From: "michael.a.porter%40comcast.net" target=_blank>michael.a.porter@..." <michael.a.porter@...>

                            To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com

                            Sent: Thursday, 10 May 2012, 23:13

                            Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?

                            Matthew,

                            It most certainly is a case of language dividing us, but not in any colloquial sense. I'm sure we've all had to "learn the facts of life" on more than one sad occasion. One of those unpleasant realities has to do with technical language, which is produced much less by technicians, than by manufacturer's sales staffs. You're not alone when confused and frustrated by technical terms. I was surprised by the volume of complaints my first book generated on that score; it was simplified to the furthest extent of my ability, but contained lots of common tech terms.

                            But here's the ugly little secret; when it comes to technical terms we are all constrained by the need to actually buy products. At such a point we have to play by the manufacturer's (and therefore the retailer's) rules. Especially here in America, the customer is pampered (more like jollied along--before the sale). "Have it your way" and "the customer is always right" are familiar little sales jingles. Well, that all stops cold once you enter a welding supply dealership, and ask to purchase a particular MIG contact tip. Your sale isn't worth the clerk's time, and if you don't want to be told "I never heard of that" and shown the door, you'd better at least have your technical descriptions correct. Across the pond its going to be a different set of terms, but not a nicer set of rules.

                            Rigidizer, while sometimes alumina/silica based for products like Duraboard and Durablanket, is nearly always colloidal silica. Ceramic fibers are quite flexible; in fact, that's their whole point of existence. However, once we get them installed, their flexibility often becomes problematic (kind of like the morning after the night before). It is fine to say "add two extra inches to its length, and force the blanket in under pressure; that will hold it in place." Unfortunately, left that way, the product will eventually shrink, and then sag out of shape after extensive heating.

                            A layer of colloidal silica within the hot-face side of fiber blanket, locks the fibers into place against each other by gluing them together at every intersection. So, you gain a lot of structural integrity while preventing shrinkage to a large extent; both desirable outcomes.

                            What it does not do is seal the fiber blanket or board. Air and hot gases still go right through the fibers if blown directly at them. Both ceramic fiber and colloidal silica form cristabolite upon reaching 1600 degrees F. You can look up cristabolite under "suspected carcinogen." So, it's a good idea to seal the fiber surface with a solid refractory coating; when the coating thickness is deliberately extended to any given refractory product's limit (think brick mortar for instance), then that coating is referred to as a "shell" and adds its own element to structural and thermal integrity.

                            Happily, the rigidized layer supports the "shell" of ceramic sealant far better than a fiber product ever could (ceramic fiber products delaminate easily). At the same time the shell helps to greatly toughen the rigidized layer against impact damage. Finally, the solid refractory shell makes a much more stable base for the infrared reflector coating; a win-win situation all around.

                            ITC-100 basically consists of zirconia particles, and a binder, in a minimal amount of water. I have strong reason to believe that binder is kaolin clay. I have no idea where to find anything in France (Okay, so I can find the Eiffel Tower; but nothing smaller). Zirconia powder is the finely ground crystaline form of metallic zirconium. Try looking under Zirconium dioxide (ZrO2),

                            ----- Original Message -----

                            From: Matthew Tinker <mattinker@...>

                            To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com

                            Sent: Thu, 10 May 2012 18:11:35 -0000 (UTC)

                            Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Colloidal silica supplier in Australia?

                            Micky,

                            Sorry to be a bore, but I'm perplexed! Sounds like another case of or common language that divides us! OK, from what I understood, your making heat resistant coatings that aren't a "shell"; it is only a support structure. (sounds medical) Not sure I follow the difference.

                            I'm very interested in this whole process, as ITC-100 Is very hard to find here In France (long time ex-pat Brit) the nearest supplier that I have found is in Ireland cost an arm and a leg! What is fine zirconia powder, sounds sci-fi, (What sort of place sells it?) Kaolin in powdered form is easy, (sigh of relief) powdered porcelain clay. What quantity is "and tosses in some left over" not sure I follow the proportions.

                            I do know how a surf board is built, which is positive!

                            regards, Matthew

                            Matthew TINKER

                            CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                            http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://sz0093.ev.mail.comcast.net/zimbra/h/%3Cspan%20class=" yui-spellcheck?>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519" target=_blank>http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519

                            ________________________________

                            Old Iron in Oz,:

                            Thanks right back at you. I will use what you just taught me about suppliers there. Believe it or not, finding such facts ain't easy; not easy at all.

                            You asked:

                            1. "Do I have to watch out for particle size?"

                            No; colloidal particles are by definition light enough to remain suspended in water. As to larger particles; they fall out of suspension, and collect on the container's bottom. Years back, while doing experiments with ITC-100 (infrared reflective coating), I deliberately mixed some into a jar of water, and watched the coarser particles fall out of suspension; then did that with a whole pint of the stuff. After painting the colloidal portion on a forge interior, it went from orange-yellow to yellow-white; indicating a big lift in interior temperatures. The change was because, the finer the particle size the higher the percentage of reflected light. When I read the phrase "up to" in ITC-100's product description, I started checking. Don't forget some "colloidal" food coloring; it really helps in judging penetration.

                            2." When I buy my sack of fumed silica powder, how do I mix it correctly to turn it into a colloid that will work well for building the ceramic shell?"

                            Just keep dumping the colloidal silica into a jug of water as long as it will remain in suspension, or until it starts to thicken (the biggest advantage of colloidal silica over water glass is its ability to penetrate ceramic fiber well). Please, don't think of this layer as a "shell"; it is only a support structure.

                            Soooo...what does we do with the rest of the colloidal silica, 'ey matey?

                            Why, we uses it as a braugh bit o' binder 'ta mix with some kaolin clay (powdered form from a local potter's supply), and tosses in some left over fine zirconia powder that we bought 'ta mix with a dab of the clay powder that we's usin' as a binder for the zirconia in our homemade IR reflective coating, which we is paintin' over the ceramic shell that we's coatin' (1/8" thick) over the rigidified (what a jawbreaker) ceramic fiber (1/2" to 3/4" thick) after we cures it in the fire till it's nice and hard. We does the same to the shell coating before paintin' on a relfective coating.

                            Of coarse, you needn't go to all that bother, but if you consider the construction of a typical surf board, the point of it all should become clear. Besides, you seldom have such an elegant (in the engineering sense) opportunity to get so much milage out of leftovers :-)

                            Mikey

                            ----- Original Message -----

                            Recent Activity:

                            * New Members 1

                            Visit Your Group

                            For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues

                            this list does not accept attachments.

                            Files area and list services are at:

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast

                            For additional files and photos and off topic discussions

                            check out these two affiliated sites:

                            sandcrabs" target=_blank>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1

                            Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply

                            budgetcastingsupply.com/" target=_blank>http://budgetcastingsupply.com/

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                          • stan campbell
                            I use phosphoric acid all the time for rust treatment, You can buy it at a paint store. the brand I use is OSPHO I use it straight on large items like my
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 13, 2012
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                              I use phosphoric acid all the time for rust treatment, You can buy it at a paint store. the brand I use is "OSPHO" I use it straight on large items like my truck. Use diluted to about 5% in a bucket for a long soak on small parts, and keep a bucket full with a top on it for the next use. Its a green  liquid . Its also listed on the labels of COCA COLA as an ingredient. great stuff. A little less than $100 U.S. a gallon

                               
                              STAN
                              http://www.toolfools.com/forum


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Matthew Tinker
                              Stan, thanks for your reply. The thing is, I don t live in the US, you used to be able to buy it here in France, but it s now extremely difficult to get hold
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 13, 2012
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                                Stan,


                                thanks for your reply. The thing is, I don't live in the US, you used to be able to buy it here in France, but it's now extremely difficult to get hold of. I have some coming by mail order which should arrive tomorrow. It's 78%, which I've never used before, when I bought in the past, I didn't even know that there were different concentrations available! 

                                Regards, Matthew

                                CNC conversion 1944 Colchester Lathe build-up log
                                http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35519


                                ________________________________
                                From: stan campbell <stan2778@...>
                                To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sunday, 13 May 2012, 16:36
                                Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Zirconium dioxide plus OT phosphoric acid


                                 
                                I use phosphoric acid all the time for rust treatment, You can buy it at a paint store. the brand I use is "OSPHO" I use it straight on large items like my truck. Use diluted to about 5% in a bucket for a long soak on small parts, and keep a bucket full with a top on it for the next use. Its a green  liquid . Its also listed on the labels of COCA COLA as an ingredient. great stuff. A little less than $100 U.S. a gallon

                                 
                                STAN
                                http://www.toolfools.com/forum

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                              • Rick Sparber
                                Stan, Is this why you can use Coca Cola to clean metal? Rick rgsparber@AOL.com
                                Message 15 of 16 , May 13, 2012
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                                  Stan,

                                  Is this why you can use Coca Cola to clean metal?

                                  Rick
                                  rgsparber@...

                                  On May 13, 2012, at 7:36 AM, stan campbell <stan2778@...> wrote:

                                  > I use phosphoric acid all the time for rust treatment, You can buy it at a paint store. the brand I use is "OSPHO" I use it straight on large items like my truck. Use diluted to about 5% in a bucket for a long soak on small parts, and keep a bucket full with a top on it for the next use. Its a green liquid . Its also listed on the labels of COCA COLA as an ingredient. great stuff. A little less than $100 U.S. a gallon
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > STAN
                                  > http://www.toolfools.com/forum
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
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                                • Stan
                                  I would assume this is the reason! An old Redneck showed me how it ( or any soda) cleans corroded battery terminals. Cleaning the lead fair, but the copper is
                                  Message 16 of 16 , May 13, 2012
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                                    I would assume this is the reason! An old Redneck showed me how it ( or
                                    any soda) cleans corroded battery terminals. Cleaning the lead fair, but
                                    the copper is shiny! The carbonation flushes the particles away as the
                                    acid eats the corrosion. I think the phosphoric is what gives these
                                    drinks their "bite" to the tongue.

                                    stan

                                    http://www.toolfools.com/forum <http://www.toolfools.com/forum>


                                    --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Rick Sparber <rgsparber@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Stan,
                                    >
                                    > Is this why you can use Coca Cola to clean metal?
                                    >
                                    > Rick
                                    > rgsparber@...
                                    >
                                    > On May 13, 2012, at 7:36 AM, stan campbell stan2778@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > I use phosphoric acid all the time for rust treatment, You can buy
                                    it at a paint store. the brand I use is "OSPHO" I use it straight on
                                    large items like my truck. Use diluted to about 5% in a bucket for a
                                    long soak on small parts, and keep a bucket full with a top on it for
                                    the next use. Its a green liquid . Its also listed on the labels of
                                    COCA COLA as an ingredient. great stuff. A little less than $100 U.S. a
                                    gallon
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > STAN
                                    > > http://www.toolfools.com/forum
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                                    > > this list does not accept attachments.
                                    > >
                                    > > Files area and list services are at:
                                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                    > >
                                    > > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                                    > > check out these two affiliated sites:
                                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                                    > >
                                    > > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                    > > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                    > >
                                    > > List Owner:
                                    > > owly@...
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >



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