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Re: [hobbicast] Re: Reducing weight of 1 square inch of iron

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  • postello@msu.edu
    Thanks. I ll have to give this a try when the snow melts. ... or ... [1] http://OpenOSX.com
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 12, 2009
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      Thanks. I'll have to give this a try when the snow melts.

      >
      > On Jan 12, 2009, at 5:18 AM, postello@... wrote:
      >
      >> You mentioned olivine sand. Are you thermite casting in greensand,
      or
      >> is this resin or oil-bonded sand?
      >
      > Hello,
      >
      > Most often with greensand. I have also used graphite, water cooled
      > copper molds and with dry sand for some styrofoam molds.
      >
      >
      > Best,
      >
      > Jeshua Lacock, Owner
      > <http://OpenOSX.com[1]>
      > phone: 877.240.1364
      >
      >


      Links:
      ------
      [1] http://OpenOSX.com
    • Ron
      ... square ... I don t know if it needs to be iron to some extent, but Fortal aluminum is as strong as cast iron in almost every way, but it weighs about half
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 19, 2009
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        --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "rassisold" <bobrass@...> wrote:
        >
        > Evening, all...
        >
        > It is my understanding that iron for casting weighs .28 lbs per
        square
        > inch. Is there anyway to reduce the weight per square inch? Can a
        > lighter allow be added? What would be the impact of strength?
        >
        > Thanks...Bob
        >
        I don't know if it needs to be iron to some extent, but Fortal
        aluminum is as strong as cast iron in almost every way, but it weighs
        about half as much. The stuff can be bought for about $2.00 per
        pound, and it casts at aluminum temperatures.

        Any tool and die shop that does injection molds or mold bases will
        have scrap material you should be able to buy. Failing that, you can
        buy it on ebay for about $3.- per pound.

        veeguy
      • rassisold
        ... a ... weighs ... can ... Thank You, veeguy... A search of ebay shows only one seller presently. His prices are outrageous, nowhere near $2-$3 per pound.
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 20, 2009
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          --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <veeguy@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "rassisold" <bobrass@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Evening, all...
          > >
          > > It is my understanding that iron for casting weighs .28 lbs per
          > square
          > > inch. Is there anyway to reduce the weight per square inch? Can
          a
          > > lighter allow be added? What would be the impact of strength?
          > >
          > > Thanks...Bob
          > >
          > I don't know if it needs to be iron to some extent, but Fortal
          > aluminum is as strong as cast iron in almost every way, but it
          weighs
          > about half as much. The stuff can be bought for about $2.00 per
          > pound, and it casts at aluminum temperatures.
          >
          > Any tool and die shop that does injection molds or mold bases will
          > have scrap material you should be able to buy. Failing that, you
          can
          > buy it on ebay for about $3.- per pound.
          >
          > veeguy
          >
          Thank You, veeguy...

          A search of ebay shows only one seller presently. His prices are
          outrageous, nowhere near $2-$3 per pound. Unless there are other
          outlets for Fortal it's too expensive for my purposes. I'll keep
          monitoring ebay for more realistic pricing. I am presently
          considering a test casting of ZA12. I need to come up with a
          material that permits rapid prototyping and testing and can be
          slightly lighter than iron and reasonable in price. Presently, my
          prototypes are made of wood and Polyform clay. Anyone have any
          ideas? Thanks
        • Ron
          Sorry for the delay in answering. My mother in law is quite sick, and we had to move her into a hospice. Its been quite hectic for the past few weeks. The
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 28, 2009
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            Sorry for the delay in answering. My mother in law is quite sick, and
            we had to move her into a hospice. Its been quite hectic for the past
            few weeks.

            The seller I usually buy from has several current listings on ebay.
            Here is one 360127399579 (as of Jan 28, 2009) the price on this
            lot is $90.- for 25 pounds with free shipping. He also has some 20 -
            25 pound lots for $78.- but I didn't check if that is including free
            shipping also.

            You could'nt find his listings because he changed his title format,
            and lists it simply as "Aluminum Assortment". To search for Fortal,
            you would need to search in both titles and descriptions under the
            advanced search options)

            The exact specs are posted on his ebay ads, I wrote a few down:

            SPEC Fortal Aluminum 1020 Steel
            Tensile strength 78,ooo psi 64,000 psi
            Yield " 69,000 " 50,000 "
            Shear " 48,000 " 48,000 "
            Brinell Hardness 142 150
            Density .1 lbs./cu. inch .28 lbs./cu. inch

            So its about 1/3 the weight, yet equal or stronger than 1020 steel!

            I make a lot of parts for my race car (suspension mounts, inboard
            shock absorber rocker arms, motor mounts, steering wheel shaft bearing
            blocks, etc, etc, etc) from it, and have yet to have a failure.

            veeguy





            Sorry for the delay in answering, my mother in law --- In
            hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "rassisold" <bobrass@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <veeguy@> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "rassisold" <bobrass@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Evening, all...
            > > >
            > > > It is my understanding that iron for casting weighs .28 lbs per
            > > square
            > > > inch. Is there anyway to reduce the weight per square inch? Can
            > a
            > > > lighter allow be added? What would be the impact of strength?
            > > >
            > > > Thanks...Bob
            > > >
            > > I don't know if it needs to be iron to some extent, but Fortal
            > > aluminum is as strong as cast iron in almost every way, but it
            > weighs
            > > about half as much. The stuff can be bought for about $2.00 per
            > > pound, and it casts at aluminum temperatures.
            > >
            > > Any tool and die shop that does injection molds or mold bases will
            > > have scrap material you should be able to buy. Failing that, you
            > can
            > > buy it on ebay for about $3.- per pound.
            > >
            > > veeguy
            > >
            > Thank You, veeguy...
            >
            > A search of ebay shows only one seller presently. His prices are
            > outrageous, nowhere near $2-$3 per pound. Unless there are other
            > outlets for Fortal it's too expensive for my purposes. I'll keep
            > monitoring ebay for more realistic pricing. I am presently
            > considering a test casting of ZA12. I need to come up with a
            > material that permits rapid prototyping and testing and can be
            > slightly lighter than iron and reasonable in price. Presently, my
            > prototypes are made of wood and Polyform clay. Anyone have any
            > ideas? Thanks
            >
          • rassisold
            ... and ... past ... 20 - ... bearing ... Good Afternoon, Veeguy... It is obvious that you are experienced casting Fortal...could you please contact me offline
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 28, 2009
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              --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <veeguy@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sorry for the delay in answering. My mother in law is quite sick,
              and
              > we had to move her into a hospice. Its been quite hectic for the
              past
              > few weeks.
              >
              > The seller I usually buy from has several current listings on ebay.
              > Here is one 360127399579 (as of Jan 28, 2009) the price on this
              > lot is $90.- for 25 pounds with free shipping. He also has some
              20 -
              > 25 pound lots for $78.- but I didn't check if that is including free
              > shipping also.
              >
              > You could'nt find his listings because he changed his title format,
              > and lists it simply as "Aluminum Assortment". To search for Fortal,
              > you would need to search in both titles and descriptions under the
              > advanced search options)
              >
              > The exact specs are posted on his ebay ads, I wrote a few down:
              >
              > SPEC Fortal Aluminum 1020 Steel
              > Tensile strength 78,ooo psi 64,000 psi
              > Yield " 69,000 " 50,000 "
              > Shear " 48,000 " 48,000 "
              > Brinell Hardness 142 150
              > Density .1 lbs./cu. inch .28 lbs./cu. inch
              >
              > So its about 1/3 the weight, yet equal or stronger than 1020 steel!
              >
              > I make a lot of parts for my race car (suspension mounts, inboard
              > shock absorber rocker arms, motor mounts, steering wheel shaft
              bearing
              > blocks, etc, etc, etc) from it, and have yet to have a failure.
              >
              > veeguy
              >
              >
              Good Afternoon, Veeguy...

              It is obvious that you are experienced casting Fortal...could you
              please contact me offline at bobrass@... I would like to
              discuss the use of Fortal a bit further. Thanks
            • JohnW
              Once you heat Fortal above about 250 F it s properties start to degrade. If you melt it you won t have Fortal anymore. JohnW
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 28, 2009
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                Once you heat Fortal above about 250 F it's properties start to
                degrade. If you melt it you won't have Fortal anymore.

                JohnW

                --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "rassisold" <bobrass@...> wrote:
                >

                > >
                > >
                > Good Afternoon, Veeguy...
                >
                > It is obvious that you are experienced casting Fortal...could you
                > please contact me offline at bobrass@... I would like to
                > discuss the use of Fortal a bit further. Thanks
                >
              • Jeshua Lacock
                ... Don t think that poses an issue for Bob s application. I don t think too many people play horseshoes with a 250F horseshoe.... ;) Best, Jeshua Lacock,
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 28, 2009
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                  On Jan 28, 2009, at 2:08 PM, JohnW wrote:

                  > Once you heat Fortal above about 250 F it's properties start to
                  > degrade. If you melt it you won't have Fortal anymore.
                  >

                  Don't think that poses an issue for Bob's application. I don't think
                  too many people play horseshoes with a 250F horseshoe....

                  ;)


                  Best,

                  Jeshua Lacock, Owner
                  <http://OpenOSX.com>
                  phone: 877.240.1364
                • Pierre Coueffin
                  Except that he s planning on casting the shoes... If he makes them from fortal, he d have to mill them from plate or have them cast then heat-treated to turn
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 28, 2009
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                    Except that he's planning on casting the shoes... If he makes them
                    from fortal, he'd have to mill them from plate or have them cast then
                    heat-treated to turn the alloy back into fortal (assuming that he can
                    find out how exactly to do that heat-treating...)

                    On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Jeshua Lacock <jeshua@...> wrote:
                    > Don't think that poses an issue for Bob's application. I don't think
                    > too many people play horseshoes with a 250F horseshoe....
                  • Ron
                    Oops,Sorry I didn t make this clear, The Fortal parts I make for my car are machined, not cast. That said, I am a cheap bas*ard, and use any scrap Fortal to
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 29, 2009
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                      Oops,Sorry I didn't make this clear, The Fortal parts I make for my
                      car are machined, not cast. That said, I am a cheap bas*ard, and use
                      any scrap Fortal to either cast general parts, or blocks for future
                      machining into parts. I'd be a little concerned with interior voids
                      or defects on critical suspension parts, and I have a CNC mill, so I
                      haven't really tried casting those parts.

                      I can't refute tha allegation that "once you melt Fortal, you no
                      longer have Fortal" statement made, except to say, it still machines
                      well and I believe it has at *least* as much strength as a 7000
                      series aluminum alloy.

                      There are strength statistics for forged Fortal. If I remember
                      correctly, they exceed the native properties of "raw" Fortal.
                      Wouldn't this indicate that the alloy can be heated and formed and
                      still retain its strength?

                      veeguy






                      --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "rassisold" <bobrass@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <veeguy@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Sorry for the delay in answering. My mother in law is quite
                      sick,
                      > and
                      > > we had to move her into a hospice. Its been quite hectic for the
                      > past
                      > > few weeks.
                      > >
                      > > The seller I usually buy from has several current listings on
                      ebay.
                      > > Here is one 360127399579 (as of Jan 28, 2009) the price on
                      this
                      > > lot is $90.- for 25 pounds with free shipping. He also has some
                      > 20 -
                      > > 25 pound lots for $78.- but I didn't check if that is including
                      free
                      > > shipping also.
                      > >
                      > > You could'nt find his listings because he changed his title
                      format,
                      > > and lists it simply as "Aluminum Assortment". To search for
                      Fortal,
                      > > you would need to search in both titles and descriptions under the
                      > > advanced search options)
                      > >
                      > > The exact specs are posted on his ebay ads, I wrote a few down:
                      > >
                      > > SPEC Fortal Aluminum 1020 Steel
                      > > Tensile strength 78,ooo psi 64,000 psi
                      > > Yield " 69,000 " 50,000 "
                      > > Shear " 48,000 " 48,000 "
                      > > Brinell Hardness 142 150
                      > > Density .1 lbs./cu. inch .28 lbs./cu. inch
                      > >
                      > > So its about 1/3 the weight, yet equal or stronger than 1020
                      steel!
                      > >
                      > > I make a lot of parts for my race car (suspension mounts, inboard
                      > > shock absorber rocker arms, motor mounts, steering wheel shaft
                      > bearing
                      > > blocks, etc, etc, etc) from it, and have yet to have a failure.
                      > >
                      > > veeguy
                      > >
                      > >
                      > Good Afternoon, Veeguy...
                      >
                      > It is obvious that you are experienced casting Fortal...could you
                      > please contact me offline at bobrass@... I would like to
                      > discuss the use of Fortal a bit further. Thanks
                      >
                    • Ken Durstine
                      If you plan on using fortal, you might want to read this. http://www.supdie.com/publications/pdf/fm-v3.pdf Some significant comments Stronger than 1020
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 29, 2009
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                        If you plan on using fortal, you might want to read this.

                        http://www.supdie.com/publications/pdf/fm-v3.pdf

                        Some significant comments

                        " Stronger than 1020 steels, FORTAL is
                        an ideal material for all types of products and tooling. FORTAL is
                        solution heat treated,
                        stabilized, artificially aged and stress relieved by stretching."

                        This statement implies the mechanical properties of fortal come from
                        processing that will be reversed by the casting processing a lot like
                        the T6 or T3 forms of 60601 or 2024 aluminum alloys.


                        "Tests carried out by a mill laboratory on a standard FORTAL HR 22mm
                        diameter bar
                        sample for 100,000,000 cycles gave the following results which are
                        not static but
                        give a fair indication.
                        smooth sample = 160 Mpa approximately = 23,200 PSI
                        notched sample = 80 Mpa approximately = 11,600 PSI
                        It is therefore worth noting that an improper design (notch or sharp
                        angle) could
                        reduce the fatigue strength quite significantly. If possible, sharp
                        corners and irregular
                        surface machining, etc. should be avoided.
                        MACHINING
                        PROPERTIES
                        13
                        Tensile Strength: 78,300 PSI typical for FORTAL HR-HS
                        0,2 Proof Stress: 69,600 PSI typical for FORTAL HR-HS
                        Elongation: 10% "

                        These statement imply that the alloy is somewhat notch sensitive and
                        that a bad casting design can fail from fatigue when it would
                        withstand a static load. The elongation of 10% at tensile failure
                        indicates that the material does not physically deform much (
                        stretch) before failure.

                        Assuming that you can post process the casting to get the improved
                        mechanical properties back, I would be careful making critical
                        components from it, a poor design geometry could quite literally
                        bite you, even with a sound casting.

                        Kenny
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