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Re: carburetor/intake manifold molds???

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  • JohnW
    Dave With fuel injection you tinker with the computer chip. No wrenches and no greasy hands. It s a lot easier but certainly not as nostaligic. JohnW ...
    Message 1 of 18 , May 1, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Dave
      With fuel injection you tinker with the computer chip. No wrenches
      and no greasy hands. It's a lot easier but certainly not as
      nostaligic.

      JohnW


      --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <odd_kins@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thanks for the info. one of the reasons I'm looking into it is
      that
      > I worked in a patternshop that was casting a similar prototype.
      the
      > 2 guys made some claims about it that were interesting, like 50
      mpg
      > with a big block v8, with little loss of power. Well long story
      > short the 2 guys were not seen again, rumor was one of them took
      all
      > the investment money. we made about 10 sets of castings and I
      missed
      > my chance to get one when the patternshop closed. Guess I'm too
      > honest to have just taken one. Oh yeah this was in the mid 80s too.
      >
      > I also prefer carbs, I would rather tune dual carbs than mess with
      > any fuel injection system. owned a vw squareback that got the same
      > or better mpg than a friends injected vw. and I got to tinker:-)
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Stone Tool <owly@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dave:
      > > I actually had some experience with one of the original Fish
      > carbs.....
      > > It belonged to a friend of mine and we installed it and tried it
      > on a
      > > couple of engines. We did this over 20 years ago, and since
      that
      > time
      > > he sold the carb to someone else. An interesting system.....
      > with the
      > > tapered slot and the fuel being introduced right from the
      throttle
      > plate
      > > as I recall...... It was not impressive in either performance or
      > > economy. But it was interesting. Essentially the effect of
      > the
      > > tapered slot and the fuel being introduced where it was is
      exactly
      > the
      > > same as a typical slide carb such as a Mikuni....... where the
      > needle
      > > taper governs fuel delivery and you can get dozens of needles
      with
      > > different tapers. The fish should have been designed with a
      > > replaceable metering plate..... perhaps some were, and if I were
      > > building something of that sort I would definitely make that
      much
      > > modification so I could custom tailor plates to the
      > application.....
      > > The Fish is not a miracle carb...... we were using it on an
      > application
      > > very close to it's original design application for that unit,
      and
      > it
      > > functioned fairly well, but we were never able to achieve any
      > noticeable
      > > improvement in economy over the two barrel Ford carb we had
      played
      > with
      > > jetting and power valves to optimize. The Fish was a simpler
      carb
      > and
      > > was attractive in that respect. Another carb of somewhat
      similar
      > > operating principle is the Century propane carb where like the
      > Fish, the
      > > throttle opening controls the orifice size.
      > >
      > > Not meaning to discourage your project....... just some
      > real world
      > > input. There is room for improvement in the basic design and I
      > would
      > > encourage you to pursue it. I have long lamented the fact that
      > EFI is
      > > not designed in such a way that I can tune the fuel map at
      > will......
      > > It seldom delivers much better performance or economy than a
      well
      > tuned
      > > carb... but has other advantages. I've had Quadrajets on 3/4
      ton
      > 4x4
      > > Chevy pickups deliver a fairly reliable 20 mpg at times.. that
      is
      > until
      > > the damn things wear out... the little hole that is the
      secondary
      > jet in
      > > them wears out and then you can do nothing with them.
      > >
      > > H.W.
      > >
      > > Dave wrote:
      > > > I'm looking at making a Fish carburator
      > http://www.boni.com/fish/
      > > > using co2 cores and a greensand mold. I saw one similar at a
      > > > patternshop. A co2 core with a graphite wash will give a good
      > > > finish, it will need a little polishing down the throat, just
      > not as
      > > > good as a permanent mold. I'm planing to build an adaptor
      plate
      > so I
      > > > can use the existing intake manifold.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "fijord2005" <fijord2005@>
      > > > wrote:
      > > >> New to the board & my first post. I've been tinkering
      > around
      > > > with
      > > >> carburetor molds, with out much fortune for sure. My first
      > > > attempts
      > > >> at "mimicking" some old Holley brand vacune can lids were
      > > > successful
      > > >> save for a few minor surface imperfections. I used greensand
      &
      > > > the
      > > >> material was zinc.
      > > >> The more "complicated" lower part of this assembly,
      > the "can"
      > > >> itself looks to have been formed by at least a two or maybe
      > three
      > > >> sectioned mold. I reverted to plaster of paris(POP)for the
      > mold
      > > >> material regarding this piece & quickly got humiliated. I
      mean
      > I
      > > >> even coated the "can" surfaces with a light coat of vaseline
      > for
      > > > ease
      > > >> of extraction of the original "can" from the POP mold. Even
      > the
      > > >> surface irreglarities on the "can" I had removed/polished for
      > ease
      > > > of
      > > >> extraction. The POP material just seems to fragile for
      repeated
      > > > use
      > > >> as a mold.
      > > >> Regarding a permanent or semi/permanent mold will I need
      to
      > > > have
      > > >> dies machined for any type of production? Tho I have
      workable
      > &
      > > >> highly modified carburetors ready for limited production I am
      > > > balking
      > > >> at wasting any more time especially in regards to the vastly
      > more
      > > >> complicated carburetor bodies themselves. I am beginning to
      > think
      > > >> that the intake manifolds would be easier to cast than the
      > > > carburetor
      > > >> bodies.
      > > >> My sources I use for information on molds/casting are
      > limited
      > > > to
      > > >> the U.S. naval foundry manual & internet sites. With the
      time
      > I
      > > > have
      > > >> spent researching on the subject one would think I would be
      the
      > > >> "difinitive" source on this subject. Like boxing, i'm
      finding
      > out
      > > >> that casting/mold making may well require more than just
      visual
      > > >> orientation.
      > > >> Any members with experience in this area, I would be much
      in
      > > >> appreciation if you will be so kind to "enlighten" me on this
      > > >> subject.
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
      > > > this list does not accept attachments.
      > > >
      > > > Files area and list services are at:
      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
      > > >
      > > > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
      > > > check out these two affiliated sites:
      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
      > > >
      > > > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
      > > > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
      > > >
      > > > List Owner:
      > > > owly@
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Stone Tool
      JohnW: It would be fun to be able to mess with the chip........ but the means to modify the fuel map easily in an understandable way is not readily available.
      Message 2 of 18 , May 1, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        JohnW:
        It would be fun to be able to mess with the chip........ but the means
        to modify the fuel map easily in an understandable way is not readily
        available. I would love to have a computer system that could be
        plugged in to take the place of the chip and would allow me to simply
        change the fuel map at any given point as well as timing and to view the
        result graphically to spread those changes out smoothly. I can see
        where an application to do this would be of great value to us
        tinkerers..... Then once one had things set about right, just burn an
        EEPROM or something. I have yet to see an EFI system that worked the
        way I felt it should.

        H.W.

        JohnW wrote:
        > Dave
        > With fuel injection you tinker with the computer chip. No wrenches
        > and no greasy hands. It's a lot easier but certainly not as
        > nostaligic.
        >
        > JohnW
        >
        >
        > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <odd_kins@...> wrote:
        >> Thanks for the info. one of the reasons I'm looking into it is
        > that
        >> I worked in a patternshop that was casting a similar prototype.
        > the
        >> 2 guys made some claims about it that were interesting, like 50
        > mpg
        >> with a big block v8, with little loss of power. Well long story
        >> short the 2 guys were not seen again, rumor was one of them took
        > all
        >> the investment money. we made about 10 sets of castings and I
        > missed
        >> my chance to get one when the patternshop closed. Guess I'm too
        >> honest to have just taken one. Oh yeah this was in the mid 80s too.
        >>
        >> I also prefer carbs, I would rather tune dual carbs than mess with
        >> any fuel injection system. owned a vw squareback that got the same
        >> or better mpg than a friends injected vw. and I got to tinker:-)
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Stone Tool <owly@> wrote:
        >>> Dave:
        >>> I actually had some experience with one of the original Fish
        >> carbs.....
        >>> It belonged to a friend of mine and we installed it and tried it
        >> on a
        >>> couple of engines. We did this over 20 years ago, and since
        > that
        >> time
        >>> he sold the carb to someone else. An interesting system.....
        >> with the
        >>> tapered slot and the fuel being introduced right from the
        > throttle
        >> plate
        >>> as I recall...... It was not impressive in either performance or
        >>> economy. But it was interesting. Essentially the effect of
        >> the
        >>> tapered slot and the fuel being introduced where it was is
        > exactly
        >> the
        >>> same as a typical slide carb such as a Mikuni....... where the
        >> needle
        >>> taper governs fuel delivery and you can get dozens of needles
        > with
        >>> different tapers. The fish should have been designed with a
        >>> replaceable metering plate..... perhaps some were, and if I were
        >>> building something of that sort I would definitely make that
        > much
        >>> modification so I could custom tailor plates to the
        >> application.....
        >>> The Fish is not a miracle carb...... we were using it on an
        >> application
        >>> very close to it's original design application for that unit,
        > and
        >> it
        >>> functioned fairly well, but we were never able to achieve any
        >> noticeable
        >>> improvement in economy over the two barrel Ford carb we had
        > played
        >> with
        >>> jetting and power valves to optimize. The Fish was a simpler
        > carb
        >> and
        >>> was attractive in that respect. Another carb of somewhat
        > similar
        >>> operating principle is the Century propane carb where like the
        >> Fish, the
        >>> throttle opening controls the orifice size.
        >>>
        >>> Not meaning to discourage your project....... just some
        >> real world
        >>> input. There is room for improvement in the basic design and I
        >> would
        >>> encourage you to pursue it. I have long lamented the fact that
        >> EFI is
        >>> not designed in such a way that I can tune the fuel map at
        >> will......
        >>> It seldom delivers much better performance or economy than a
        > well
        >> tuned
        >>> carb... but has other advantages. I've had Quadrajets on 3/4
        > ton
        >> 4x4
        >>> Chevy pickups deliver a fairly reliable 20 mpg at times.. that
        > is
        >> until
        >>> the damn things wear out... the little hole that is the
        > secondary
        >> jet in
        >>> them wears out and then you can do nothing with them.
        >>>
        >>> H.W.
        >>>
        >>> Dave wrote:
        >>>> I'm looking at making a Fish carburator
        >> http://www.boni.com/fish/
        >>>> using co2 cores and a greensand mold. I saw one similar at a
        >>>> patternshop. A co2 core with a graphite wash will give a good
        >>>> finish, it will need a little polishing down the throat, just
        >> not as
        >>>> good as a permanent mold. I'm planing to build an adaptor
        > plate
        >> so I
        >>>> can use the existing intake manifold.
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "fijord2005" <fijord2005@>
        >>>> wrote:
        >>>>> New to the board & my first post. I've been tinkering
        >> around
        >>>> with
        >>>>> carburetor molds, with out much fortune for sure. My first
        >>>> attempts
        >>>>> at "mimicking" some old Holley brand vacune can lids were
        >>>> successful
        >>>>> save for a few minor surface imperfections. I used greensand
        > &
        >>>> the
        >>>>> material was zinc.
        >>>>> The more "complicated" lower part of this assembly,
        >> the "can"
        >>>>> itself looks to have been formed by at least a two or maybe
        >> three
        >>>>> sectioned mold. I reverted to plaster of paris(POP)for the
        >> mold
        >>>>> material regarding this piece & quickly got humiliated. I
        > mean
        >> I
        >>>>> even coated the "can" surfaces with a light coat of vaseline
        >> for
        >>>> ease
        >>>>> of extraction of the original "can" from the POP mold. Even
        >> the
        >>>>> surface irreglarities on the "can" I had removed/polished for
        >> ease
        >>>> of
        >>>>> extraction. The POP material just seems to fragile for
        > repeated
        >>>> use
        >>>>> as a mold.
        >>>>> Regarding a permanent or semi/permanent mold will I need
        > to
        >>>> have
        >>>>> dies machined for any type of production? Tho I have
        > workable
        >> &
        >>>>> highly modified carburetors ready for limited production I am
        >>>> balking
        >>>>> at wasting any more time especially in regards to the vastly
        >> more
        >>>>> complicated carburetor bodies themselves. I am beginning to
        >> think
        >>>>> that the intake manifolds would be easier to cast than the
        >>>> carburetor
        >>>>> bodies.
        >>>>> My sources I use for information on molds/casting are
        >> limited
        >>>> to
        >>>>> the U.S. naval foundry manual & internet sites. With the
        > time
        >> I
        >>>> have
        >>>>> spent researching on the subject one would think I would be
        > the
        >>>>> "difinitive" source on this subject. Like boxing, i'm
        > finding
        >> out
        >>>>> that casting/mold making may well require more than just
        > visual
        >>>>> orientation.
        >>>>> Any members with experience in this area, I would be much
        > in
        >>>>> appreciation if you will be so kind to "enlighten" me on this
        >>>>> subject.
        >>>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
        >>>> this list does not accept attachments.
        >>>>
        >>>> Files area and list services are at:
        >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
        >>>>
        >>>> For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
        >>>> check out these two affiliated sites:
        >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
        >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
        >>>>
        >>>> Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
        >>>> http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
        >>>>
        >>>> List Owner:
        >>>> owly@
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
        > this list does not accept attachments.
        >
        > Files area and list services are at:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
        >
        > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
        > check out these two affiliated sites:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
        >
        > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
        > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
        >
        > List Owner:
        > owly@...
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Mary Long
        Go to dynojet s web site http://www.powercommander.com/eng_default.aspx ... From: Stone Tool To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:29
        Message 3 of 18 , May 1, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Go to dynojet's web site http://www.powercommander.com/eng_default.aspx

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Stone Tool
          To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:29 AM
          Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: carburetor/intake manifold molds???


          JohnW:
          It would be fun to be able to mess with the chip........ but the means
          to modify the fuel map easily in an understandable way is not readily
          available. I would love to have a computer system that could be
          plugged in to take the place of the chip and would allow me to simply
          change the fuel map at any given point as well as timing and to view the
          result graphically to spread those changes out smoothly. I can see
          where an application to do this would be of great value to us
          tinkerers..... Then once one had things set about right, just burn an
          EEPROM or something. I have yet to see an EFI system that worked the
          way I felt it should.

          H.W.

          JohnW wrote:
          > Dave
          > With fuel injection you tinker with the computer chip. No wrenches
          > and no greasy hands. It's a lot easier but certainly not as
          > nostaligic.
          >
          > JohnW
          >
          >
          > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <odd_kins@...> wrote:
          >> Thanks for the info. one of the reasons I'm looking into it is
          > that
          >> I worked in a patternshop that was casting a similar prototype.
          > the
          >> 2 guys made some claims about it that were interesting, like 50
          > mpg
          >> with a big block v8, with little loss of power. Well long story
          >> short the 2 guys were not seen again, rumor was one of them took
          > all
          >> the investment money. we made about 10 sets of castings and I
          > missed
          >> my chance to get one when the patternshop closed. Guess I'm too
          >> honest to have just taken one. Oh yeah this was in the mid 80s too.
          >>
          >> I also prefer carbs, I would rather tune dual carbs than mess with
          >> any fuel injection system. owned a vw squareback that got the same
          >> or better mpg than a friends injected vw. and I got to tinker:-)
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Stone Tool <owly@> wrote:
          >>> Dave:
          >>> I actually had some experience with one of the original Fish
          >> carbs.....
          >>> It belonged to a friend of mine and we installed it and tried it
          >> on a
          >>> couple of engines. We did this over 20 years ago, and since
          > that
          >> time
          >>> he sold the carb to someone else. An interesting system.....
          >> with the
          >>> tapered slot and the fuel being introduced right from the
          > throttle
          >> plate
          >>> as I recall...... It was not impressive in either performance or
          >>> economy. But it was interesting. Essentially the effect of
          >> the
          >>> tapered slot and the fuel being introduced where it was is
          > exactly
          >> the
          >>> same as a typical slide carb such as a Mikuni....... where the
          >> needle
          >>> taper governs fuel delivery and you can get dozens of needles
          > with
          >>> different tapers. The fish should have been designed with a
          >>> replaceable metering plate..... perhaps some were, and if I were
          >>> building something of that sort I would definitely make that
          > much
          >>> modification so I could custom tailor plates to the
          >> application.....
          >>> The Fish is not a miracle carb...... we were using it on an
          >> application
          >>> very close to it's original design application for that unit,
          > and
          >> it
          >>> functioned fairly well, but we were never able to achieve any
          >> noticeable
          >>> improvement in economy over the two barrel Ford carb we had
          > played
          >> with
          >>> jetting and power valves to optimize. The Fish was a simpler
          > carb
          >> and
          >>> was attractive in that respect. Another carb of somewhat
          > similar
          >>> operating principle is the Century propane carb where like the
          >> Fish, the
          >>> throttle opening controls the orifice size.
          >>>
          >>> Not meaning to discourage your project....... just some
          >> real world
          >>> input. There is room for improvement in the basic design and I
          >> would
          >>> encourage you to pursue it. I have long lamented the fact that
          >> EFI is
          >>> not designed in such a way that I can tune the fuel map at
          >> will......
          >>> It seldom delivers much better performance or economy than a
          > well
          >> tuned
          >>> carb... but has other advantages. I've had Quadrajets on 3/4
          > ton
          >> 4x4
          >>> Chevy pickups deliver a fairly reliable 20 mpg at times.. that
          > is
          >> until
          >>> the damn things wear out... the little hole that is the
          > secondary
          >> jet in
          >>> them wears out and then you can do nothing with them.
          >>>
          >>> H.W.
          >>>
          >>> Dave wrote:
          >>>> I'm looking at making a Fish carburator
          >> http://www.boni.com/fish/
          >>>> using co2 cores and a greensand mold. I saw one similar at a
          >>>> patternshop. A co2 core with a graphite wash will give a good
          >>>> finish, it will need a little polishing down the throat, just
          >> not as
          >>>> good as a permanent mold. I'm planing to build an adaptor
          > plate
          >> so I
          >>>> can use the existing intake manifold.
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "fijord2005" <fijord2005@>
          >>>> wrote:
          >>>>> New to the board & my first post. I've been tinkering
          >> around
          >>>> with
          >>>>> carburetor molds, with out much fortune for sure. My first
          >>>> attempts
          >>>>> at "mimicking" some old Holley brand vacune can lids were
          >>>> successful
          >>>>> save for a few minor surface imperfections. I used greensand
          > &
          >>>> the
          >>>>> material was zinc.
          >>>>> The more "complicated" lower part of this assembly,
          >> the "can"
          >>>>> itself looks to have been formed by at least a two or maybe
          >> three
          >>>>> sectioned mold. I reverted to plaster of paris(POP)for the
          >> mold
          >>>>> material regarding this piece & quickly got humiliated. I
          > mean
          >> I
          >>>>> even coated the "can" surfaces with a light coat of vaseline
          >> for
          >>>> ease
          >>>>> of extraction of the original "can" from the POP mold. Even
          >> the
          >>>>> surface irreglarities on the "can" I had removed/polished for
          >> ease
          >>>> of
          >>>>> extraction. The POP material just seems to fragile for
          > repeated
          >>>> use
          >>>>> as a mold.
          >>>>> Regarding a permanent or semi/permanent mold will I need
          > to
          >>>> have
          >>>>> dies machined for any type of production? Tho I have
          > workable
          >> &
          >>>>> highly modified carburetors ready for limited production I am
          >>>> balking
          >>>>> at wasting any more time especially in regards to the vastly
          >> more
          >>>>> complicated carburetor bodies themselves. I am beginning to
          >> think
          >>>>> that the intake manifolds would be easier to cast than the
          >>>> carburetor
          >>>>> bodies.
          >>>>> My sources I use for information on molds/casting are
          >> limited
          >>>> to
          >>>>> the U.S. naval foundry manual & internet sites. With the
          > time
          >> I
          >>>> have
          >>>>> spent researching on the subject one would think I would be
          > the
          >>>>> "difinitive" source on this subject. Like boxing, i'm
          > finding
          >> out
          >>>>> that casting/mold making may well require more than just
          > visual
          >>>>> orientation.
          >>>>> Any members with experience in this area, I would be much
          > in
          >>>>> appreciation if you will be so kind to "enlighten" me on this
          >>>>> subject.
          >>>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
          >>>> this list does not accept attachments.
          >>>>
          >>>> Files area and list services are at:
          >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
          >>>>
          >>>> For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
          >>>> check out these two affiliated sites:
          >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
          >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
          >>>>
          >>>> Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
          >>>> http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
          >>>>
          >>>> List Owner:
          >>>> owly@
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
          > this list does not accept attachments.
          >
          > Files area and list services are at:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
          >
          > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
          > check out these two affiliated sites:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
          >
          > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
          > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
          >
          > List Owner:
          > owly@...
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chris Horne
          ... You can cast zinc alloys into alumunium permanent molds. If you can cast Aluminium you are almost there. A bit of careful thought, maybe lost foam patterns
          Message 4 of 18 , May 1, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "fijord2005" <fijord2005@...> wrote:
            >
            > New to the board & my first post. I've been tinkering around with
            > carburetor molds, >> snip

            You can cast zinc alloys into alumunium permanent molds.

            If you can cast Aluminium you are almost there.

            A bit of careful thought, maybe lost foam patterns for the molds and
            then machining, filing etc. and you could turn then out by the dozen !

            Chris
          • Dave
            I work with computers all day so it s nice to get out and do some hands on work.....sometimes. Isn t using a computer to tune you car kind of like phone sex,
            Message 5 of 18 , May 1, 2007
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              I work with computers all day so it's nice to get out and do some
              hands on work.....sometimes. Isn't using a computer to tune you car
              kind of like phone sex, It's just not as much fun if you can't feel
              it ;-)


              --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "JohnW" <john.walker@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dave
              > With fuel injection you tinker with the computer chip. No
              wrenches
              > and no greasy hands. It's a lot easier but certainly not as
              > nostaligic.
              >
              > JohnW
              >
              >
              > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <odd_kins@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks for the info. one of the reasons I'm looking into it is
              > that
              > > I worked in a patternshop that was casting a similar prototype.
              > the
              > > 2 guys made some claims about it that were interesting, like 50
              > mpg
              > > with a big block v8, with little loss of power. Well long story
              > > short the 2 guys were not seen again, rumor was one of them took
              > all
              > > the investment money. we made about 10 sets of castings and I
              > missed
              > > my chance to get one when the patternshop closed. Guess I'm too
              > > honest to have just taken one. Oh yeah this was in the mid 80s
              too.
              > >
              > > I also prefer carbs, I would rather tune dual carbs than mess
              with
              > > any fuel injection system. owned a vw squareback that got the
              same
              > > or better mpg than a friends injected vw. and I got to tinker:-)
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Stone Tool <owly@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Dave:
              > > > I actually had some experience with one of the original Fish
              > > carbs.....
              > > > It belonged to a friend of mine and we installed it and tried
              it
              > > on a
              > > > couple of engines. We did this over 20 years ago, and since
              > that
              > > time
              > > > he sold the carb to someone else. An interesting system.....
              > > with the
              > > > tapered slot and the fuel being introduced right from the
              > throttle
              > > plate
              > > > as I recall...... It was not impressive in either performance
              or
              > > > economy. But it was interesting. Essentially the effect
              of
              > > the
              > > > tapered slot and the fuel being introduced where it was is
              > exactly
              > > the
              > > > same as a typical slide carb such as a Mikuni....... where the
              > > needle
              > > > taper governs fuel delivery and you can get dozens of needles
              > with
              > > > different tapers. The fish should have been designed with a
              > > > replaceable metering plate..... perhaps some were, and if I
              were
              > > > building something of that sort I would definitely make that
              > much
              > > > modification so I could custom tailor plates to the
              > > application.....
              > > > The Fish is not a miracle carb...... we were using it on an
              > > application
              > > > very close to it's original design application for that unit,
              > and
              > > it
              > > > functioned fairly well, but we were never able to achieve any
              > > noticeable
              > > > improvement in economy over the two barrel Ford carb we had
              > played
              > > with
              > > > jetting and power valves to optimize. The Fish was a simpler
              > carb
              > > and
              > > > was attractive in that respect. Another carb of somewhat
              > similar
              > > > operating principle is the Century propane carb where like the
              > > Fish, the
              > > > throttle opening controls the orifice size.
              > > >
              > > > Not meaning to discourage your project....... just some
              > > real world
              > > > input. There is room for improvement in the basic design and
              I
              > > would
              > > > encourage you to pursue it. I have long lamented the fact
              that
              > > EFI is
              > > > not designed in such a way that I can tune the fuel map at
              > > will......
              > > > It seldom delivers much better performance or economy than a
              > well
              > > tuned
              > > > carb... but has other advantages. I've had Quadrajets on 3/4
              > ton
              > > 4x4
              > > > Chevy pickups deliver a fairly reliable 20 mpg at times.. that
              > is
              > > until
              > > > the damn things wear out... the little hole that is the
              > secondary
              > > jet in
              > > > them wears out and then you can do nothing with them.
              > > >
              > > > H.W.
              > > >
              > > > Dave wrote:
              > > > > I'm looking at making a Fish carburator
              > > http://www.boni.com/fish/
              > > > > using co2 cores and a greensand mold. I saw one similar at a
              > > > > patternshop. A co2 core with a graphite wash will give a
              good
              > > > > finish, it will need a little polishing down the throat,
              just
              > > not as
              > > > > good as a permanent mold. I'm planing to build an adaptor
              > plate
              > > so I
              > > > > can use the existing intake manifold.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "fijord2005" <fijord2005@>
              > > > > wrote:
              > > > >> New to the board & my first post. I've been tinkering
              > > around
              > > > > with
              > > > >> carburetor molds, with out much fortune for sure. My first
              > > > > attempts
              > > > >> at "mimicking" some old Holley brand vacune can lids were
              > > > > successful
              > > > >> save for a few minor surface imperfections. I used
              greensand
              > &
              > > > > the
              > > > >> material was zinc.
              > > > >> The more "complicated" lower part of this assembly,
              > > the "can"
              > > > >> itself looks to have been formed by at least a two or maybe
              > > three
              > > > >> sectioned mold. I reverted to plaster of paris(POP)for the
              > > mold
              > > > >> material regarding this piece & quickly got humiliated. I
              > mean
              > > I
              > > > >> even coated the "can" surfaces with a light coat of
              vaseline
              > > for
              > > > > ease
              > > > >> of extraction of the original "can" from the POP mold.
              Even
              > > the
              > > > >> surface irreglarities on the "can" I had removed/polished
              for
              > > ease
              > > > > of
              > > > >> extraction. The POP material just seems to fragile for
              > repeated
              > > > > use
              > > > >> as a mold.
              > > > >> Regarding a permanent or semi/permanent mold will I need
              > to
              > > > > have
              > > > >> dies machined for any type of production? Tho I have
              > workable
              > > &
              > > > >> highly modified carburetors ready for limited production I
              am
              > > > > balking
              > > > >> at wasting any more time especially in regards to the
              vastly
              > > more
              > > > >> complicated carburetor bodies themselves. I am beginning
              to
              > > think
              > > > >> that the intake manifolds would be easier to cast than the
              > > > > carburetor
              > > > >> bodies.
              > > > >> My sources I use for information on molds/casting are
              > > limited
              > > > > to
              > > > >> the U.S. naval foundry manual & internet sites. With the
              > time
              > > I
              > > > > have
              > > > >> spent researching on the subject one would think I would be
              > the
              > > > >> "difinitive" source on this subject. Like boxing, i'm
              > finding
              > > out
              > > > >> that casting/mold making may well require more than just
              > visual
              > > > >> orientation.
              > > > >> Any members with experience in this area, I would be
              much
              > in
              > > > >> appreciation if you will be so kind to "enlighten" me on
              this
              > > > >> subject.
              > > > >>
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
              > > > > this list does not accept attachments.
              > > > >
              > > > > Files area and list services are at:
              > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
              > > > >
              > > > > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
              > > > > check out these two affiliated sites:
              > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
              > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
              > > > >
              > > > > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
              > > > > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
              > > > >
              > > > > List Owner:
              > > > > owly@
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Dave
              with a wood pattern and core boxes you can eliminate most of the hand work to get a good looking part. Guess I ve worked in the patternshop too long to mess
              Message 6 of 18 , May 1, 2007
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                with a wood pattern and core boxes you can eliminate most of the hand
                work to get a good looking part. Guess I've worked in the patternshop
                too long to mess with foam patterns. I also have some tooling plastic
                that makes a nice pattern if I want to cnc cut the part, may do that
                with hardwood if the prototype works. using hardwood or plastic I
                could make a couple hundred if that was needed.


                --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "fijord2005" <fijord2005@> wrote:
                > >
                > > New to the board & my first post. I've been tinkering around
                with
                > > carburetor molds, >> snip
                >
                > You can cast zinc alloys into alumunium permanent molds.
                >
                > If you can cast Aluminium you are almost there.
                >
                > A bit of careful thought, maybe lost foam patterns for the molds and
                > then machining, filing etc. and you could turn then out by the
                dozen !
                >
                > Chris
                >
              • rchilso@netscape.net
                you may try using the lost wax method to get the detail you need from your castings. making silicone molds to inject your wax into will give very repetetive
                Message 7 of 18 , May 2, 2007
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                  you may try using the lost wax method to get the detail you need from your castings. making silicone molds to inject your wax into will give very repetetive results. also the silicone will give exacting results.
                  also try the jewlerycasting group for info on lost wax processes.




                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: fijord2005@...
                  To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 3:56 PM
                  Subject: [hobbicast] carburetor/intake manifold molds???


                  New to the board & my first post. I've been tinkering around with
                  carburetor molds, with out much fortune for sure. My first attempts
                  at "mimicking" some old Holley brand vacune can lids were successful
                  save for a few minor surface imperfections. I used greensand & the
                  material was zinc.
                  The more "complicated" lower part of this assembly, the "can"
                  itself looks to have been formed by at least a two or maybe three
                  sectioned mold. I reverted to plaster of paris(POP)for the mold
                  material regarding this piece & quickly got humiliated. I mean I
                  even coated the "can" surfaces with a light coat of vaseline for ease
                  of extraction of the original "can" from the POP mold. Even the
                  surface irreglarities on the "can" I had removed/polished for ease of
                  extraction. The POP material just seems to fragile for repeated use
                  as a mold.
                  Regarding a permanent or semi/permanent mold will I need to have
                  dies machined for any type of production? Tho I have workable &
                  highly modified carburetors ready for limited production I am balking
                  at wasting any more time especially in regards to the vastly more
                  complicated carburetor bodies themselves. I am beginning to think
                  that the intake manifolds would be easier to cast than the carburetor
                  bodies.
                  My sources I use for information on molds/casting are limited to
                  the U.S. naval foundry manual & internet sites. With the time I have
                  spent researching on the subject one would think I would be the
                  "difinitive" source on this subject. Like boxing, i'm finding out
                  that casting/mold making may well require more than just visual
                  orientation.
                  Any members with experience in this area, I would be much in
                  appreciation if you will be so kind to "enlighten" me on this
                  subject.



                  For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                  this list does not accept attachments.

                  Files area and list services are at:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast

                  For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                  check out these two affiliated sites:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1

                  Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                  http://budgetcastingsupply.com/

                  List Owner:
                  owly@...


                  Yahoo! Groups Links



                  ________________________________________________________________________
                  Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • MAGGIE ALLEN
                  Hey there, Dave- What sort of machinable plastic do you use? I have found difficulties getting the kind of surface finish I want from using plastics for
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 2, 2007
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                    Hey there, Dave-
                    What sort of machinable plastic do you use? I have found difficulties getting the kind of surface finish I want from using plastics for patterns. Do you have any tips for this task with plastics?

                    Mark F
                    Pacifist.... with occasional lapses.

                    Dave <odd_kins@...> wrote: with a wood pattern and core boxes you can eliminate most of the hand
                    work to get a good looking part. Guess I've worked in the patternshop
                    too long to mess with foam patterns. I also have some tooling plastic
                    that makes a nice pattern if I want to cnc cut the part, may do that
                    with hardwood if the prototype works. using hardwood or plastic I
                    could make a couple hundred if that was needed.







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dave
                    http://www.freemansupply.com/RenShape5169Foundr.htm I use this stuff. I can get it locally from the patternshops. It cuts about like hardwood(maple) but will
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 2, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      http://www.freemansupply.com/RenShape5169Foundr.htm

                      I use this stuff. I can get it locally from the patternshops. It
                      cuts about like hardwood(maple) but will dull a tool a lot quicker.
                      I use carbide tools and resharpen after cutting a medium sized
                      pattern. It's stable but you can't force a drill through because it
                      will break. they have a special glue but thick super glue works too.
                      when cutting with a cnc I use a .003 to .008 stepover with a 1/4 in
                      ball cutter finish sand with 150 grit sandpaper and steel wool.


                      --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, MAGGIE ALLEN <yvanwolvesbane@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey there, Dave-
                      > What sort of machinable plastic do you use? I have found
                      difficulties getting the kind of surface finish I want from using
                      plastics for patterns. Do you have any tips for this task with
                      plastics?
                      >
                      > Mark F
                      > Pacifist.... with occasional lapses.
                      >
                      > Dave <odd_kins@...> wrote: with a
                      wood pattern and core boxes you can eliminate most of the hand
                      > work to get a good looking part. Guess I've worked in the
                      patternshop
                      > too long to mess with foam patterns. I also have some tooling
                      plastic
                      > that makes a nice pattern if I want to cnc cut the part, may do
                      that
                      > with hardwood if the prototype works. using hardwood or plastic I
                      > could make a couple hundred if that was needed.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • fijord2005
                      ... I mean the vacume that would be used must be somewhat heat resistent??????? ... and what I believe to be some carborators during my time selling to the
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 5, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Scott Trostel <blwloco@...> wrote:
                        > Scott, what type of source is being used to create the "vacume"?
                        I mean the vacume that would be used must be somewhat heat
                        resistent???????
                        > I have ssen production casting of intake manifolds, valve covers
                        and what I believe to be some carborators during my time selling to
                        the automotive markets. Intake manifolds for straight blocks were
                        cast with baked sand molds that were built-up from several molded
                        sand parts. I never saw any green sand used at all. On Vee block
                        engines I jhave seen gree sand used when the ports were to be
                        machined separately. It is probably that baked sand inserts were
                        likely used at some time during large production runs, but in after-
                        market, the casting is not high enough volume to cover the expense of
                        making core boxes and sand core inserts, etc
                        > I've seen valve covers cast in aluminum and they were cast in POP
                        molds with a vacuum. The molds were about 600 degrees if my recall
                        is correct and the sprues fed at least eight gated inlets. They also
                        used in-line metal filers.
                        > What I think were carborators were die cast. The manufacturer
                        would not talk about what the part was or who it was for, but it
                        looked like some common two barrel carb bodies of the 1970s era
                        cars. There is a foudry man in Piqua, Ohio who can offer some info
                        on your challenges. Contact me off group for his name and phone
                        number. He does considerable consulting work with automotive
                        suppliers where accuracy and repeatability of castings are required
                        and has his own shop where he does specialized castings..
                        >
                        > In POP molds, every foundry will tell you POP is cheap and those
                        molds would only be used once then tossed in the dumpster.
                        >
                        > Scott Trostel
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
                        > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • bob mcdonell
                        Scott, yes I would deffinantly be interested in the gentlemans name, email/phone number. As I just told Dave Patterson, my terminology usage is still infantile
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 6, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Scott, yes I would deffinantly be interested in the
                          gentlemans name, email/phone number. As I just told
                          Dave Patterson, my terminology usage is still
                          infantile regarding foundry practices in general. I
                          did mean to use the term "baked Sand molds".
                          My manifold project is coming along & I will be
                          keeping EXTENSIVE digitals to share with the members.
                          As with Dave, ANY tips/suggestions are ALWAYS
                          appreciated by me.
                          I will be attempting to cast carb bodies with baked
                          sand molds, but realize that cnc machined plates &
                          some type of pressurized or vacume assisted
                          evacuation/delivery system may well increase the
                          success of a casted project.
                          Maybe some day I can FINALLY be casting my own
                          style of super Mikuni's or Weber carbs! With a good
                          wet/dry flow bench, cad programs & todays computer
                          assisted research/technology, I truly beleive it is
                          possable to acquire near fuel injection performance
                          regarding IR/carb per cylinder packages, even on the
                          500 cubic inch plus "monsters" roaming the streets
                          today!
                          Boy, it used to be a 488 cubic inch stroker was the
                          terror of the streets. Now days we got small blocks
                          pretty near that cubic inch!!! Could you imagine a
                          540+ c.i. stroker with a IR(carb per cylinder) system
                          that flowed enough cfm to feed the "beast" & still
                          meter fuel properly?! The torque alone would be mind
                          bogling!!!
                          Feel free to offer tips/suggestions at any time, &
                          rest assured I will APPRECIATE them! Thanks for being
                          a "super" member & I will be looking forward to your
                          reply!
                          Bob McDonell
                          --- Scott Trostel <blwloco@...> wrote:

                          > I have ssen production casting of intake manifolds,
                          > valve covers and what I believe to be some
                          > carborators during my time selling to the automotive
                          > markets. Intake manifolds for straight blocks were
                          > cast with baked sand molds that were built-up from
                          > several molded sand parts. I never saw any green
                          > sand used at all. On Vee block engines I jhave seen
                          > gree sand used when the ports were to be machined
                          > separately. It is probably that baked sand inserts
                          > were likely used at some time during large
                          > production runs, but in after-market, the casting is
                          > not high enough volume to cover the expense of
                          > making core boxes and sand core inserts, etc
                          > I've seen valve covers cast in aluminum and they
                          > were cast in POP molds with a vacuum. The molds
                          > were about 600 degrees if my recall is correct and
                          > the sprues fed at least eight gated inlets. They
                          > also used in-line metal filers.
                          > What I think were carborators were die cast. The
                          > manufacturer would not talk about what the part was
                          > or who it was for, but it looked like some common
                          > two barrel carb bodies of the 1970s era cars. There
                          > is a foudry man in Piqua, Ohio who can offer some
                          > info on your challenges. Contact me off group for
                          > his name and phone number. He does considerable
                          > consulting work with automotive suppliers where
                          > accuracy and repeatability of castings are required
                          > and has his own shop where he does specialized
                          > castings..
                          >
                          > In POP molds, every foundry will tell you POP is
                          > cheap and those molds would only be used once then
                          > tossed in the dumpster.
                          >
                          > Scott Trostel
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
                          > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >




                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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