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Large Flask Support

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  • edynm
    In Foundrys that use Big Flasks, How do they support Heavy Sections of Greensand?, To prevent Drop out. Some of the bigger/wider foundry flasks must have
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 1, 2003
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      In Foundrys that use Big Flasks, How do they support "Heavy
      Sections" of Greensand?, To prevent Drop out. Some of the
      bigger/wider foundry flasks must have alot of weight (Greensand)in
      the centre. Ive noticed this with some flasks I made that were too
      Thin and wide. Even with correctly tempered sand, the slightest knock
      when lifting the cope or closing the mold would cause drop out, Im
      thinking they must use bars or dowels that locate on the side
      supports across the flasks? ,Does anyone know?. I may be in the need
      to cast something Larger than usual one day and will have to make
      larger flasks to suit.
      Regards Edyn
    • Ray Brandes
      Edyn, You guessed right. Metal supports up and down and back and fourth. Do you have the Navy Foundry Manual? - Ray
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 1, 2003
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        Edyn,
        You guessed right. Metal supports up and down and back and fourth. Do
        you have the Navy Foundry Manual? - Ray

        edynm wrote:

        > In Foundrys that use Big Flasks, How do they support "Heavy
        >Sections" of Greensand?, To prevent Drop out. Some of the
        >
      • Lyle
        With a gagger or intermediate cross piece going through the center of the cope. I have a large flask with a center piece that only is 1/2 as deep as the rest
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 1, 2003
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          With a gagger or intermediate cross piece going through the center of
          the cope. I have a large flask with a center piece that only is 1/2
          as deep as the rest of the cope. I use this flask to pour Harley
          davidson primary covers which are pretty large (for me). Commercial
          foundrys have some pretty large flasks with sometimes several cross
          pieces. There's probably a term for them.

          Lyle

          --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
          >
          > In Foundrys that use Big Flasks, How do they support "Heavy
          > Sections" of Greensand?, To prevent Drop out. Some of the
          > bigger/wider foundry flasks must have alot of weight (Greensand)in
          > the centre. Ive noticed this with some flasks I made that were too
          > Thin and wide. Even with correctly tempered sand, the slightest
          knock
          > when lifting the cope or closing the mold would cause drop out, Im
          > thinking they must use bars or dowels that locate on the side
          > supports across the flasks? ,Does anyone know?. I may be in the
          need
          > to cast something Larger than usual one day and will have to make
          > larger flasks to suit.
          > Regards Edyn
        • Mike Beaty
          Where I worked, we had metal flasks, with a grid made of strips of 1/4 steelplate welded in the top. The strips were about 2 wide, and were placed on edge
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 1, 2003
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            Where I worked, we had metal flasks, with a grid made of strips of
            1/4" steelplate welded in the top. The strips were about 2" wide, and
            were placed on edge

            Mike Beaty

            --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
            >
            > In Foundrys that use Big Flasks, How do they support "Heavy
            > Sections" of Greensand?, To prevent Drop out. Some of the
            > bigger/wider foundry flasks must have alot of weight (Greensand)in
            > the centre. Ive noticed this with some flasks I made that were too
            > Thin and wide. Even with correctly tempered sand, the slightest
            knock
            > when lifting the cope or closing the mold would cause drop out, Im
            > thinking they must use bars or dowels that locate on the side
            > supports across the flasks? ,Does anyone know?. I may be in the
            need
            > to cast something Larger than usual one day and will have to make
            > larger flasks to suit.
            > Regards Edyn
          • Raymond Heckert
            My rememberance of 48 square flasks were that they were all at least 24 high, Made of C-section shape, with a formed rib every 8 , and the upper & lower legs
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 1, 2003
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              My rememberance of 48" square flasks were that they were all at least 24"
              high, Made of C-section shape, with a formed rib every 8", and the upper &
              lower legs of the "C" being 3", and the legs facing inward. Mold volume
              (incl. risers, gates, runners, sprues, etc.), always less than 1/6th the
              total volume of the flask. That, and the strength of the greensand (rammed
              real hard) was all that held the sand in place. We cast TEFC &
              explosion-proof electric motor frames for up to 300 hp in those flasks.
              (They were done separately on a 'rollover' machine.) Perhaps, try to scale
              to those dimensions down to your size. Did anybody except WDS see my offer
              (several months ago) of such channels for making your own flasks?

              RayHex

              ----------
              > From: edynm <edynm@...>
              >
              >
              > In Foundrys that use Big Flasks, How do they support "Heavy
              > Sections" of Greensand?, To prevent Drop out. Some of the
              > bigger/wider foundry flasks must have alot of weight (Greensand)in
              > the centre. Ive noticed this with some flasks I made that were too
              <snip>
            • edynm
              Hi Ray The Navy Foundry Manuel?, I wouldnt mind seeing that,Is it available throughout Bookstores worldwide or america only?Where did you get it from?, I live
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 1, 2003
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                Hi Ray
                The Navy Foundry Manuel?, I wouldnt mind seeing that,Is it available
                throughout Bookstores worldwide or america only?Where did you get it
                from?, I live in New Zealand....u probley havnt heard of the place ha
                ha.

                regards edyn
              • capebyron2003
                ... available ... it ... ha ... Edyn, you might do well to contact the Yeronga College of TAFE in Queenland,here in Australia !! they have some very good and
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 2, 2003
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                  --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                  > Hi Ray
                  > The Navy Foundry Manuel?, I wouldnt mind seeing that,Is it
                  available
                  > throughout Bookstores worldwide or america only?Where did you get
                  it
                  > from?, I live in New Zealand....u probley havnt heard of the place
                  ha
                  > ha.
                  >
                  > regards edyn

                  Edyn,
                  you might do well to contact the Yeronga College of TAFE in
                  Queenland,here in Australia !! they have some very good and very
                  cheap trade manuals in their bookshop .Ive bought a few ....very good
                  stuff. Id get them for you but its about 160 k away .You could
                  probably find their website online.
                  cheers,
                  Peter Sibley
                • terryb_au
                  Hello Edwin, The Navy Foundry manual is available from Plough Book Sales Australia. http://www.ploughbooksales.com.au/56.htm It s about a third of the way down
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 2, 2003
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                    Hello Edwin,
                    The Navy Foundry manual is available from Plough Book Sales
                    Australia.
                    http://www.ploughbooksales.com.au/56.htm
                    It's about a third of the way down page AUD48.50 part number 001918.
                    Their home page is
                    http://www.ploughbooksales.com.au/default.htm
                    You can see some support rails and gaggers on my web pages
                    http://members.optusnet.com.au/hmbrown/GingeryShaper4.html
                    http://members.optusnet.com.au/hmbrown/GingeryShaper5.html
                    Hope this helps.
                    Cheers
                    Terry

                    --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                    > The Navy Foundry Manuel?, I wouldnt mind seeing that,Is it
                    available
                    > throughout Bookstores worldwide or america only?Where did you get
                    it
                    > from?, I live in New Zealand....u probley havnt heard of the place
                    ha
                    > ha.
                    >
                    > regards edyn
                  • edynm
                    Thanks all for the comments and referances for the Navy foundry Manuel Much appreciated........ Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found this to be
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 3, 2003
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                      Thanks all for the comments and referances for the Navy foundry
                      Manuel Much appreciated........

                      Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found this to be
                      extremely annoying and timewasting especially when your closing the
                      mold. I found The links on Terrys post to be very helpful on flask
                      rails, I noticed that the rails were the full depth of the cope,
                      Obviousley for flat patterns that sit in the drag only. How would you
                      get on with patterns that protrude into the cope?, Do you just make
                      up flasks to suit,with the rails contouring the pattern?. I was
                      wanting to make up some flasks that I could use on all sorts of loose
                      patterns, that have sand support rails like Terrys flasks. Maybe I
                      could Router vertical channels in opposite sides of the cope so the
                      rails can be adjusted and then locked somehow. Has anyone made flasks
                      like this at all?, or is there other ways to support sand with
                      patterns that protrude into the cope?

                      Man I need some Foundry books!

                      Thanks in advance

                      Edyn......
                    • Allen Hutzell
                      Edyn, I have been watching from the sidelines but felt compelled to throw out some observations I have made. Generally crossbars aren t needed until you get
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 4, 2003
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                        Edyn,

                        I have been watching from the sidelines but felt compelled to throw out some
                        observations I have made.

                        Generally crossbars aren't needed until you get larger than 18" (45cm) unless the
                        cope is thin for the expanse. Having a slight lip on the bottom edge of the cope will
                        help to support the sand without crossbars but then you have to space it slightly off
                        the matchplate (flatwashers) or there could be a lot of flash along the parting line as
                        you will not get the needed compression between the cope and drag halves. You can
                        build the cope and drag as adjustables but you will have make sure that they stay
                        rigid once you have rammed your sand in place. If they flex it will break the bonds of
                        the sand. You may be able to do this with screws into the endgrain to 'lock' the
                        adjustable side on each.

                        When the pattern extends into the cope the crossbars were cut to conform to the
                        contour of the pattern making allowance for the facing sand. Let us know how it
                        works out for you


                        --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                        > Thanks all for the comments and referances for the Navy foundry
                        > Manuel Much appreciated........
                        >
                        > Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found this to be
                        > extremely annoying and timewasting especially when your closing the
                        > mold. I found The links on Terrys post to be very helpful on flask
                        > rails, I noticed that the rails were the full depth of the cope,
                        > Obviousley for flat patterns that sit in the drag only. How would you
                        > get on with patterns that protrude into the cope?, Do you just make
                        > up flasks to suit,with the rails contouring the pattern?. I was
                        > wanting to make up some flasks that I could use on all sorts of loose
                        > patterns, that have sand support rails like Terrys flasks. Maybe I
                        > could Router vertical channels in opposite sides of the cope so the
                        > rails can be adjusted and then locked somehow. Has anyone made flasks
                        > like this at all?, or is there other ways to support sand with
                        > patterns that protrude into the cope?
                        >
                        > Man I need some Foundry books!
                        >
                        > Thanks in advance
                        >
                        > Edyn......
                      • capebyron2003
                        Allen, that was very interesting. Is there some formula as to how much sand should be allowed about and below the casting as a rough rule ? Say on a 14 or 18
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 4, 2003
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                          Allen,
                          that was very interesting. Is there some formula as to how much sand
                          should be allowed about and below the casting as a rough rule ? Say
                          on a 14" or 18" wide flask ?
                          regards,
                          Peter Sibley

                          --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...> wrote:
                          > Edyn,
                          >
                          > I have been watching from the sidelines but felt compelled to throw
                          out some
                          > observations I have made.
                          >
                          > Generally crossbars aren't needed until you get larger than 18"
                          (45cm) unless the
                          > cope is thin for the expanse. Having a slight lip on the bottom
                          edge of the cope will
                          > help to support the sand without crossbars but then you have to
                          space it slightly off
                          > the matchplate (flatwashers) or there could be a lot of flash along
                          the parting line as
                          > you will not get the needed compression between the cope and drag
                          halves. You can
                          > build the cope and drag as adjustables but you will have make sure
                          that they stay
                          > rigid once you have rammed your sand in place. If they flex it
                          will break the bonds of
                          > the sand. You may be able to do this with screws into the endgrain
                          to 'lock' the
                          > adjustable side on each.
                          >
                          > When the pattern extends into the cope the crossbars were cut to
                          conform to the
                          > contour of the pattern making allowance for the facing sand. Let
                          us know how it
                          > works out for you
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                          > > Thanks all for the comments and referances for the Navy foundry
                          > > Manuel Much appreciated........
                          > >
                          > > Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found this to be
                          > > extremely annoying and timewasting especially when your closing
                          the
                          > > mold. I found The links on Terrys post to be very helpful on
                          flask
                          > > rails, I noticed that the rails were the full depth of the cope,
                          > > Obviousley for flat patterns that sit in the drag only. How would
                          you
                          > > get on with patterns that protrude into the cope?, Do you just
                          make
                          > > up flasks to suit,with the rails contouring the pattern?. I was
                          > > wanting to make up some flasks that I could use on all sorts of
                          loose
                          > > patterns, that have sand support rails like Terrys flasks. Maybe
                          I
                          > > could Router vertical channels in opposite sides of the cope so
                          the
                          > > rails can be adjusted and then locked somehow. Has anyone made
                          flasks
                          > > like this at all?, or is there other ways to support sand with
                          > > patterns that protrude into the cope?
                          > >
                          > > Man I need some Foundry books!
                          > >
                          > > Thanks in advance
                          > >
                          > > Edyn......
                        • Allen Hutzell
                          Peter, A lot depends on the dimensions of the patterns you re trying to cast and the metal you re casting. Each has slightly different requirements. I
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 5, 2003
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                            Peter,

                            A lot depends on the dimensions of the patterns you're trying to cast and the metal
                            you're casting. Each has slightly different requirements. I generally ram lots of sand
                            as it's cheap and reusable. Re-riddle it and it's good to go.

                            I don't know of a formula necessarily because of the different pouring temperatures
                            that we have for the three most common metals we pour Al, Bronze and Cast Iron.
                            There are some general rules of thumb that I use however. I never use less than 2" of
                            sand between the drag sides / bottom board and the pattern no matter how small it
                            is. There are too many issues by going smaller (runout, sags, drops, swell,
                            combustion of drag and cope).

                            Based on 1/2 inch thickness: If the pattern is 3' or less I use 2" between pattern and
                            cope bottom and 2"on each side (4" total) minimum. Between 3"- 6" I use 3" bottom
                            and 3" per side each. 6"-12" The numbers go to 4" bottom and 4" per side each.

                            As the thickness increases I increase the dimensions based on the mass of the
                            casting. I would use more sand for a casting 4"Lx4"Wx2"D than I would for a similar
                            casting 4"Lx4"Wx1/2"D. The dimensioning on the cope is similar although I tend to
                            increase the sand depth between the top of the pattern and the top of the cope for
                            hydrostatic pressure. Always keep in mind the the sand performs 3 functions it
                            provides a negative of the pattern. It act as an insulator to allow the metal to cool in
                            a predictable way. Lastly and most importantly it is the first and best protection you
                            have against molten metal that is anywhere from 1500-3100 Degrees F.

                            Hope that wasn't to long winded.

                            Al

                            --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "capebyron2003" <sibleyp@l...> wrote:
                            > Allen,
                            > that was very interesting. Is there some formula as to how much sand
                            > should be allowed about and below the casting as a rough rule ? Say
                            > on a 14" or 18" wide flask ?
                            > regards,
                            > Peter Sibley
                            >
                            > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...> wrote:
                            > > Edyn,
                            > >
                            > > I have been watching from the sidelines but felt compelled to throw
                            > out some
                            > > observations I have made.
                            > >
                            > > Generally crossbars aren't needed until you get larger than 18"
                            > (45cm) unless the
                            > > cope is thin for the expanse. Having a slight lip on the bottom
                            > edge of the cope will
                            > > help to support the sand without crossbars but then you have to
                            > space it slightly off
                            > > the matchplate (flatwashers) or there could be a lot of flash along
                            > the parting line as
                            > > you will not get the needed compression between the cope and drag
                            > halves. You can
                            > > build the cope and drag as adjustables but you will have make sure
                            > that they stay
                            > > rigid once you have rammed your sand in place. If they flex it
                            > will break the bonds of
                            > > the sand. You may be able to do this with screws into the endgrain
                            > to 'lock' the
                            > > adjustable side on each.
                            > >
                            > > When the pattern extends into the cope the crossbars were cut to
                            > conform to the
                            > > contour of the pattern making allowance for the facing sand. Let
                            > us know how it
                            > > works out for you
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                            > > > Thanks all for the comments and referances for the Navy foundry
                            > > > Manuel Much appreciated........
                            > > >
                            > > > Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found this to be
                            > > > extremely annoying and timewasting especially when your closing
                            > the
                            > > > mold. I found The links on Terrys post to be very helpful on
                            > flask
                            > > > rails, I noticed that the rails were the full depth of the cope,
                            > > > Obviousley for flat patterns that sit in the drag only. How would
                            > you
                            > > > get on with patterns that protrude into the cope?, Do you just
                            > make
                            > > > up flasks to suit,with the rails contouring the pattern?. I was
                            > > > wanting to make up some flasks that I could use on all sorts of
                            > loose
                            > > > patterns, that have sand support rails like Terrys flasks. Maybe
                            > I
                            > > > could Router vertical channels in opposite sides of the cope so
                            > the
                            > > > rails can be adjusted and then locked somehow. Has anyone made
                            > flasks
                            > > > like this at all?, or is there other ways to support sand with
                            > > > patterns that protrude into the cope?
                            > > >
                            > > > Man I need some Foundry books!
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks in advance
                            > > >
                            > > > Edyn......
                          • edynm
                            Allen - Thanks alot for the helpful comments. Some good advice. I made up some flasks that were quite thin. Each flask being approx 2 deep and approx 10
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 7, 2003
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                              Allen - Thanks alot for the helpful comments. Some good advice.

                              I made up some flasks that were quite thin. Each flask being approx
                              2"deep and approx 10" sides, I made them quite thin to save time
                              ramming big flasks on small patterns.

                              I found that I kept having dropout problems and thats what led me to
                              believe I needed to support the sand somehow. - (Using Rails). When I
                              read your Post that mentioned you dont need rails on flasks any
                              smaller than 18 inches, led me to believe my flasks must be just TOO
                              NARROW.

                              I have since screwed some wood strips onto the Cope Top, to give
                              more sand above the side supports. I rammed a couple of molds this
                              weekend and no Dropouts so far!. I think the sand area was too thin
                              above the side supports to hold the weight of the unsupported sand in
                              the centre.

                              I was wondering as a guideline what depth you use above the side
                              supports with your Cope(s). This must be an Important feature when
                              making up Flasks when using Greensand - as Ive found out!.

                              Ive seen flasks on websites that were narrow but they must be using
                              Oil bonded sands?

                              Thanks In Advance..
                              Edyn



                              --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Peter,
                              >
                              > A lot depends on the dimensions of the patterns you're trying to
                              cast and the metal
                              > you're casting. Each has slightly different requirements. I
                              generally ram lots of sand
                              > as it's cheap and reusable. Re-riddle it and it's good to go.
                              >
                              > I don't know of a formula necessarily because of the different
                              pouring temperatures
                              > that we have for the three most common metals we pour Al, Bronze
                              and Cast Iron.
                              > There are some general rules of thumb that I use however. I never
                              use less than 2" of
                              > sand between the drag sides / bottom board and the pattern no
                              matter how small it
                              > is. There are too many issues by going smaller (runout, sags,
                              drops, swell,
                              > combustion of drag and cope).
                              >
                              > Based on 1/2 inch thickness: If the pattern is 3' or less I use 2"
                              between pattern and
                              > cope bottom and 2"on each side (4" total) minimum. Between 3"- 6"
                              I use 3" bottom
                              > and 3" per side each. 6"-12" The numbers go to 4" bottom and 4"
                              per side each.
                              >
                              > As the thickness increases I increase the dimensions based on the
                              mass of the
                              > casting. I would use more sand for a casting 4"Lx4"Wx2"D than I
                              would for a similar
                              > casting 4"Lx4"Wx1/2"D. The dimensioning on the cope is similar
                              although I tend to
                              > increase the sand depth between the top of the pattern and the top
                              of the cope for
                              > hydrostatic pressure. Always keep in mind the the sand performs 3
                              functions it
                              > provides a negative of the pattern. It act as an insulator to
                              allow the metal to cool in
                              > a predictable way. Lastly and most importantly it is the first and
                              best protection you
                              > have against molten metal that is anywhere from 1500-3100 Degrees F.
                              >
                              > Hope that wasn't to long winded.
                              >
                              > Al
                              >
                              > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "capebyron2003" <sibleyp@l...>
                              wrote:
                              > > Allen,
                              > > that was very interesting. Is there some formula as to how much
                              sand
                              > > should be allowed about and below the casting as a rough rule ?
                              Say
                              > > on a 14" or 18" wide flask ?
                              > > regards,
                              > > Peter Sibley
                              > >
                              > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...>
                              wrote:
                              > > > Edyn,
                              > > >
                              > > > I have been watching from the sidelines but felt compelled to
                              throw
                              > > out some
                              > > > observations I have made.
                              > > >
                              > > > Generally crossbars aren't needed until you get larger than 18"
                              > > (45cm) unless the
                              > > > cope is thin for the expanse. Having a slight lip on the
                              bottom
                              > > edge of the cope will
                              > > > help to support the sand without crossbars but then you have to
                              > > space it slightly off
                              > > > the matchplate (flatwashers) or there could be a lot of flash
                              along
                              > > the parting line as
                              > > > you will not get the needed compression between the cope and
                              drag
                              > > halves. You can
                              > > > build the cope and drag as adjustables but you will have make
                              sure
                              > > that they stay
                              > > > rigid once you have rammed your sand in place. If they flex it
                              > > will break the bonds of
                              > > > the sand. You may be able to do this with screws into the
                              endgrain
                              > > to 'lock' the
                              > > > adjustable side on each.
                              > > >
                              > > > When the pattern extends into the cope the crossbars were cut
                              to
                              > > conform to the
                              > > > contour of the pattern making allowance for the facing sand.
                              Let
                              > > us know how it
                              > > > works out for you
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                              > > > > Thanks all for the comments and referances for the Navy
                              foundry
                              > > > > Manuel Much appreciated........
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found this to
                              be
                              > > > > extremely annoying and timewasting especially when your
                              closing
                              > > the
                              > > > > mold. I found The links on Terrys post to be very helpful on
                              > > flask
                              > > > > rails, I noticed that the rails were the full depth of the
                              cope,
                              > > > > Obviousley for flat patterns that sit in the drag only. How
                              would
                              > > you
                              > > > > get on with patterns that protrude into the cope?, Do you
                              just
                              > > make
                              > > > > up flasks to suit,with the rails contouring the pattern?. I
                              was
                              > > > > wanting to make up some flasks that I could use on all sorts
                              of
                              > > loose
                              > > > > patterns, that have sand support rails like Terrys flasks.
                              Maybe
                              > > I
                              > > > > could Router vertical channels in opposite sides of the cope
                              so
                              > > the
                              > > > > rails can be adjusted and then locked somehow. Has anyone
                              made
                              > > flasks
                              > > > > like this at all?, or is there other ways to support sand
                              with
                              > > > > patterns that protrude into the cope?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Man I need some Foundry books!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Thanks in advance
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Edyn......
                            • Lyle
                              Oil bonded sands will give you the same drop out problem if the cope is too thin. You could also have other problems with a too thin cope such as not enough
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 7, 2003
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                                Oil bonded sands will give you the same drop out problem if the cope
                                is too thin. You could also have other problems with a too thin cope
                                such as not enough mass in the sprue to counteract shrinkage. For 10"
                                sides, I'd use 1x4 wood which goves you a 3 1/2 in. deep cope. 3 1/2
                                in works all they up to at least 14 inches. I've got some 18" and 24
                                in flasks where I use 1/6's on.
                                LL

                                --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > Allen - Thanks alot for the helpful comments. Some good advice.
                                >
                                > I made up some flasks that were quite thin. Each flask being
                                approx
                                > 2"deep and approx 10" sides, I made them quite thin to save time
                                > ramming big flasks on small patterns.
                                >
                                > I found that I kept having dropout problems and thats what led me
                                to
                                > believe I needed to support the sand somehow. - (Using Rails). When
                                I
                                > read your Post that mentioned you dont need rails on flasks any
                                > smaller than 18 inches, led me to believe my flasks must be just
                                TOO
                                > NARROW.
                                >
                                > I have since screwed some wood strips onto the Cope Top, to give
                                > more sand above the side supports. I rammed a couple of molds this
                                > weekend and no Dropouts so far!. I think the sand area was too thin
                                > above the side supports to hold the weight of the unsupported sand
                                in
                                > the centre.
                                >
                                > I was wondering as a guideline what depth you use above the side
                                > supports with your Cope(s). This must be an Important feature when
                                > making up Flasks when using Greensand - as Ive found out!.
                                >
                                > Ive seen flasks on websites that were narrow but they must be
                                using
                                > Oil bonded sands?
                                >
                                > Thanks In Advance..
                                > Edyn
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...>
                                wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Peter,
                                > >
                                > > A lot depends on the dimensions of the patterns you're trying to
                                > cast and the metal
                                > > you're casting. Each has slightly different requirements. I
                                > generally ram lots of sand
                                > > as it's cheap and reusable. Re-riddle it and it's good to go.
                                > >
                                > > I don't know of a formula necessarily because of the different
                                > pouring temperatures
                                > > that we have for the three most common metals we pour Al, Bronze
                                > and Cast Iron.
                                > > There are some general rules of thumb that I use however. I
                                never
                                > use less than 2" of
                                > > sand between the drag sides / bottom board and the pattern no
                                > matter how small it
                                > > is. There are too many issues by going smaller (runout, sags,
                                > drops, swell,
                                > > combustion of drag and cope).
                                > >
                                > > Based on 1/2 inch thickness: If the pattern is 3' or less I use
                                2"
                                > between pattern and
                                > > cope bottom and 2"on each side (4" total) minimum. Between 3"-
                                6"
                                > I use 3" bottom
                                > > and 3" per side each. 6"-12" The numbers go to 4" bottom and 4"
                                > per side each.
                                > >
                                > > As the thickness increases I increase the dimensions based on the
                                > mass of the
                                > > casting. I would use more sand for a casting 4"Lx4"Wx2"D than I
                                > would for a similar
                                > > casting 4"Lx4"Wx1/2"D. The dimensioning on the cope is similar
                                > although I tend to
                                > > increase the sand depth between the top of the pattern and the
                                top
                                > of the cope for
                                > > hydrostatic pressure. Always keep in mind the the sand performs
                                3
                                > functions it
                                > > provides a negative of the pattern. It act as an insulator to
                                > allow the metal to cool in
                                > > a predictable way. Lastly and most importantly it is the first
                                and
                                > best protection you
                                > > have against molten metal that is anywhere from 1500-3100 Degrees
                                F.
                                > >
                                > > Hope that wasn't to long winded.
                                > >
                                > > Al
                                > >
                                > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "capebyron2003" <sibleyp@l...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > > Allen,
                                > > > that was very interesting. Is there some formula as to how
                                much
                                > sand
                                > > > should be allowed about and below the casting as a rough rule ?
                                > Say
                                > > > on a 14" or 18" wide flask ?
                                > > > regards,
                                > > > Peter Sibley
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > > > Edyn,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I have been watching from the sidelines but felt compelled to
                                > throw
                                > > > out some
                                > > > > observations I have made.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Generally crossbars aren't needed until you get larger than
                                18"
                                > > > (45cm) unless the
                                > > > > cope is thin for the expanse. Having a slight lip on the
                                > bottom
                                > > > edge of the cope will
                                > > > > help to support the sand without crossbars but then you have
                                to
                                > > > space it slightly off
                                > > > > the matchplate (flatwashers) or there could be a lot of flash
                                > along
                                > > > the parting line as
                                > > > > you will not get the needed compression between the cope and
                                > drag
                                > > > halves. You can
                                > > > > build the cope and drag as adjustables but you will have make
                                > sure
                                > > > that they stay
                                > > > > rigid once you have rammed your sand in place. If they flex
                                it
                                > > > will break the bonds of
                                > > > > the sand. You may be able to do this with screws into the
                                > endgrain
                                > > > to 'lock' the
                                > > > > adjustable side on each.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > When the pattern extends into the cope the crossbars were cut
                                > to
                                > > > conform to the
                                > > > > contour of the pattern making allowance for the facing sand.
                                > Let
                                > > > us know how it
                                > > > > works out for you
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                                > > > > > Thanks all for the comments and referances for the Navy
                                > foundry
                                > > > > > Manuel Much appreciated........
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found this
                                to
                                > be
                                > > > > > extremely annoying and timewasting especially when your
                                > closing
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > mold. I found The links on Terrys post to be very helpful
                                on
                                > > > flask
                                > > > > > rails, I noticed that the rails were the full depth of the
                                > cope,
                                > > > > > Obviousley for flat patterns that sit in the drag only. How
                                > would
                                > > > you
                                > > > > > get on with patterns that protrude into the cope?, Do you
                                > just
                                > > > make
                                > > > > > up flasks to suit,with the rails contouring the pattern?. I
                                > was
                                > > > > > wanting to make up some flasks that I could use on all
                                sorts
                                > of
                                > > > loose
                                > > > > > patterns, that have sand support rails like Terrys flasks.
                                > Maybe
                                > > > I
                                > > > > > could Router vertical channels in opposite sides of the
                                cope
                                > so
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > rails can be adjusted and then locked somehow. Has anyone
                                > made
                                > > > flasks
                                > > > > > like this at all?, or is there other ways to support sand
                                > with
                                > > > > > patterns that protrude into the cope?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Man I need some Foundry books!
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Thanks in advance
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Edyn......
                              • Allen Hutzell
                                Edyn, I don t use side supports in my flasks (probably should) I do try to keep at least 3 (7.6cm) of sand over the pattern on a 10 x10 (25.4cmx25.4cm) cope.
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 7, 2003
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                                  Edyn,

                                  I don't use side supports in my flasks (probably should) I do try to keep at least 3"
                                  (7.6cm) of sand over the pattern on a 10"x10" (25.4cmx25.4cm) cope. It has worked
                                  well for me. You can cheat if the pattern surface doesn't enter the cope or if it is a
                                  small area of the cope surface. But I wouldn't go under 2 1/2" (6.3cm). I've saved a
                                  lot of time by having to ram the cope twice when it dropped out on me too.

                                  Let us know how it works out.

                                  Good Luck and G'day
                                  AL

                                  --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Allen - Thanks alot for the helpful comments. Some good advice.
                                  >
                                  > I made up some flasks that were quite thin. Each flask being approx
                                  > 2"deep and approx 10" sides, I made them quite thin to save time
                                  > ramming big flasks on small patterns.
                                  >
                                  > I found that I kept having dropout problems and thats what led me to
                                  > believe I needed to support the sand somehow. - (Using Rails). When I
                                  > read your Post that mentioned you dont need rails on flasks any
                                  > smaller than 18 inches, led me to believe my flasks must be just TOO
                                  > NARROW.
                                  >
                                  > I have since screwed some wood strips onto the Cope Top, to give
                                  > more sand above the side supports. I rammed a couple of molds this
                                  > weekend and no Dropouts so far!. I think the sand area was too thin
                                  > above the side supports to hold the weight of the unsupported sand in
                                  > the centre.
                                  >
                                  > I was wondering as a guideline what depth you use above the side
                                  > supports with your Cope(s). This must be an Important feature when
                                  > making up Flasks when using Greensand - as Ive found out!.
                                  >
                                  > Ive seen flasks on websites that were narrow but they must be using
                                  > Oil bonded sands?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks In Advance..
                                  > Edyn
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Peter,
                                  > >
                                  > > A lot depends on the dimensions of the patterns you're trying to
                                  > cast and the metal
                                  > > you're casting. Each has slightly different requirements. I
                                  > generally ram lots of sand
                                  > > as it's cheap and reusable. Re-riddle it and it's good to go.
                                  > >
                                  > > I don't know of a formula necessarily because of the different
                                  > pouring temperatures
                                  > > that we have for the three most common metals we pour Al, Bronze
                                  > and Cast Iron.
                                  > > There are some general rules of thumb that I use however. I never
                                  > use less than 2" of
                                  > > sand between the drag sides / bottom board and the pattern no
                                  > matter how small it
                                  > > is. There are too many issues by going smaller (runout, sags,
                                  > drops, swell,
                                  > > combustion of drag and cope).
                                  > >
                                  > > Based on 1/2 inch thickness: If the pattern is 3' or less I use 2"
                                  > between pattern and
                                  > > cope bottom and 2"on each side (4" total) minimum. Between 3"- 6"
                                  > I use 3" bottom
                                  > > and 3" per side each. 6"-12" The numbers go to 4" bottom and 4"
                                  > per side each.
                                  > >
                                  > > As the thickness increases I increase the dimensions based on the
                                  > mass of the
                                  > > casting. I would use more sand for a casting 4"Lx4"Wx2"D than I
                                  > would for a similar
                                  > > casting 4"Lx4"Wx1/2"D. The dimensioning on the cope is similar
                                  > although I tend to
                                  > > increase the sand depth between the top of the pattern and the top
                                  > of the cope for
                                  > > hydrostatic pressure. Always keep in mind the the sand performs 3
                                  > functions it
                                  > > provides a negative of the pattern. It act as an insulator to
                                  > allow the metal to cool in
                                  > > a predictable way. Lastly and most importantly it is the first and
                                  > best protection you
                                  > > have against molten metal that is anywhere from 1500-3100 Degrees F.
                                  > >
                                  > > Hope that wasn't to long winded.
                                  > >
                                  > > Al
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "capebyron2003" <sibleyp@l...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > > Allen,
                                  > > > that was very interesting. Is there some formula as to how much
                                  > sand
                                  > > > should be allowed about and below the casting as a rough rule ?
                                  > Say
                                  > > > on a 14" or 18" wide flask ?
                                  > > > regards,
                                  > > > Peter Sibley
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > > > Edyn,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I have been watching from the sidelines but felt compelled to
                                  > throw
                                  > > > out some
                                  > > > > observations I have made.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Generally crossbars aren't needed until you get larger than 18"
                                  > > > (45cm) unless the
                                  > > > > cope is thin for the expanse. Having a slight lip on the
                                  > bottom
                                  > > > edge of the cope will
                                  > > > > help to support the sand without crossbars but then you have to
                                  > > > space it slightly off
                                  > > > > the matchplate (flatwashers) or there could be a lot of flash
                                  > along
                                  > > > the parting line as
                                  > > > > you will not get the needed compression between the cope and
                                  > drag
                                  > > > halves. You can
                                  > > > > build the cope and drag as adjustables but you will have make
                                  > sure
                                  > > > that they stay
                                  > > > > rigid once you have rammed your sand in place. If they flex it
                                  > > > will break the bonds of
                                  > > > > the sand. You may be able to do this with screws into the
                                  > endgrain
                                  > > > to 'lock' the
                                  > > > > adjustable side on each.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > When the pattern extends into the cope the crossbars were cut
                                  > to
                                  > > > conform to the
                                  > > > > contour of the pattern making allowance for the facing sand.
                                  > Let
                                  > > > us know how it
                                  > > > > works out for you
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                                  > > > > > Thanks all for the comments and referances for the Navy
                                  > foundry
                                  > > > > > Manuel Much appreciated........
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found this to
                                  > be
                                  > > > > > extremely annoying and timewasting especially when your
                                  > closing
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > mold. I found The links on Terrys post to be very helpful on
                                  > > > flask
                                  > > > > > rails, I noticed that the rails were the full depth of the
                                  > cope,
                                  > > > > > Obviousley for flat patterns that sit in the drag only. How
                                  > would
                                  > > > you
                                  > > > > > get on with patterns that protrude into the cope?, Do you
                                  > just
                                  > > > make
                                  > > > > > up flasks to suit,with the rails contouring the pattern?. I
                                  > was
                                  > > > > > wanting to make up some flasks that I could use on all sorts
                                  > of
                                  > > > loose
                                  > > > > > patterns, that have sand support rails like Terrys flasks.
                                  > Maybe
                                  > > > I
                                  > > > > > could Router vertical channels in opposite sides of the cope
                                  > so
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > rails can be adjusted and then locked somehow. Has anyone
                                  > made
                                  > > > flasks
                                  > > > > > like this at all?, or is there other ways to support sand
                                  > with
                                  > > > > > patterns that protrude into the cope?
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Man I need some Foundry books!
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Thanks in advance
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Edyn......
                                • edynm
                                  Allen and Lyle, thanks for the input on this topic, Ill keep it in Mind to keep Cope depth no less than 3 1/2 inches up to 14 sides, Use Rails over 18 and
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                    Allen and Lyle, thanks for the input on this topic,

                                    Ill keep it in Mind to keep Cope depth no less than 3 1/2 inches up
                                    to 14" sides, Use Rails over 18" and Attach the side supports to the
                                    lower edge of the cope - Excellant Advice Thanks!

                                    Ive extended the top of the Flasks (Copes) I recently made so they
                                    are just over 3" in depth with approx 10-11" sides and so far I
                                    havent had a dropout problem. I was starting to think my Greensand
                                    probs were re-occuring all over again but thanks to your guys advice
                                    all is well.

                                    .....Lyle, I didnt understand what you were mentioning here ?
                                    " I've got some 18" and 24 in flasks where I use 1/6's on."

                                    1/6's? - Where you refering to (1"wide x 6"high Timber?) or (One
                                    sixth of something?. Sorry here in New Zealand we use the Metric
                                    system and I have trouble converting some of the the Imperial Slang.

                                    Just like to know for future referance, One day I may get to cast
                                    something that will need an 18 - 24" flask......he he.

                                    Thanks again and thanks in advance.

                                    Regards Edyn..

                                    -----------------------snip----------------------------------------


                                    --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Edyn,
                                    >
                                    > I don't use side supports in my flasks (probably should) I do try
                                    to keep at least 3"
                                    > (7.6cm) of sand over the pattern on a 10"x10" (25.4cmx25.4cm)
                                    cope. It has worked
                                    > well for me. You can cheat if the pattern surface doesn't enter
                                    the cope or if it is a
                                    > small area of the cope surface. But I wouldn't go under 2 1/2"
                                    (6.3cm). I've saved a
                                    > lot of time by having to ram the cope twice when it dropped out on
                                    me too.
                                    >
                                    > Let us know how it works out.
                                    >
                                    > Good Luck and G'day
                                    > AL
                                    >
                                    > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Allen - Thanks alot for the helpful comments. Some good advice.
                                    > >
                                    > > I made up some flasks that were quite thin. Each flask being
                                    approx
                                    > > 2"deep and approx 10" sides, I made them quite thin to save time
                                    > > ramming big flasks on small patterns.
                                    > >
                                    > > I found that I kept having dropout problems and thats what led
                                    me to
                                    > > believe I needed to support the sand somehow. - (Using Rails).
                                    When I
                                    > > read your Post that mentioned you dont need rails on flasks any
                                    > > smaller than 18 inches, led me to believe my flasks must be just
                                    TOO
                                    > > NARROW.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have since screwed some wood strips onto the Cope Top, to give
                                    > > more sand above the side supports. I rammed a couple of molds
                                    this
                                    > > weekend and no Dropouts so far!. I think the sand area was too
                                    thin
                                    > > above the side supports to hold the weight of the unsupported
                                    sand in
                                    > > the centre.
                                    > >
                                    > > I was wondering as a guideline what depth you use above the side
                                    > > supports with your Cope(s). This must be an Important feature
                                    when
                                    > > making up Flasks when using Greensand - as Ive found out!.
                                    > >
                                    > > Ive seen flasks on websites that were narrow but they must be
                                    using
                                    > > Oil bonded sands?
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks In Advance..
                                    > > Edyn
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Peter,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > A lot depends on the dimensions of the patterns you're trying
                                    to
                                    > > cast and the metal
                                    > > > you're casting. Each has slightly different requirements. I
                                    > > generally ram lots of sand
                                    > > > as it's cheap and reusable. Re-riddle it and it's good to go.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I don't know of a formula necessarily because of the different
                                    > > pouring temperatures
                                    > > > that we have for the three most common metals we pour Al,
                                    Bronze
                                    > > and Cast Iron.
                                    > > > There are some general rules of thumb that I use however. I
                                    never
                                    > > use less than 2" of
                                    > > > sand between the drag sides / bottom board and the pattern no
                                    > > matter how small it
                                    > > > is. There are too many issues by going smaller (runout, sags,
                                    > > drops, swell,
                                    > > > combustion of drag and cope).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Based on 1/2 inch thickness: If the pattern is 3' or less I use
                                    2"
                                    > > between pattern and
                                    > > > cope bottom and 2"on each side (4" total) minimum. Between 3"-
                                    6"
                                    > > I use 3" bottom
                                    > > > and 3" per side each. 6"-12" The numbers go to 4" bottom and
                                    4"
                                    > > per side each.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > As the thickness increases I increase the dimensions based on
                                    the
                                    > > mass of the
                                    > > > casting. I would use more sand for a casting 4"Lx4"Wx2"D than
                                    I
                                    > > would for a similar
                                    > > > casting 4"Lx4"Wx1/2"D. The dimensioning on the cope is similar
                                    > > although I tend to
                                    > > > increase the sand depth between the top of the pattern and the
                                    top
                                    > > of the cope for
                                    > > > hydrostatic pressure. Always keep in mind the the sand
                                    performs 3
                                    > > functions it
                                    > > > provides a negative of the pattern. It act as an insulator to
                                    > > allow the metal to cool in
                                    > > > a predictable way. Lastly and most importantly it is the first
                                    and
                                    > > best protection you
                                    > > > have against molten metal that is anywhere from 1500-3100
                                    Degrees F.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hope that wasn't to long winded.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Al
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "capebyron2003"
                                    <sibleyp@l...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > > Allen,
                                    > > > > that was very interesting. Is there some formula as to how
                                    much
                                    > > sand
                                    > > > > should be allowed about and below the casting as a rough
                                    rule ?
                                    > > Say
                                    > > > > on a 14" or 18" wide flask ?
                                    > > > > regards,
                                    > > > > Peter Sibley
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell"
                                    <AHROXZ@A...>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > Edyn,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I have been watching from the sidelines but felt compelled
                                    to
                                    > > throw
                                    > > > > out some
                                    > > > > > observations I have made.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Generally crossbars aren't needed until you get larger than
                                    18"
                                    > > > > (45cm) unless the
                                    > > > > > cope is thin for the expanse. Having a slight lip on the
                                    > > bottom
                                    > > > > edge of the cope will
                                    > > > > > help to support the sand without crossbars but then you
                                    have to
                                    > > > > space it slightly off
                                    > > > > > the matchplate (flatwashers) or there could be a lot of
                                    flash
                                    > > along
                                    > > > > the parting line as
                                    > > > > > you will not get the needed compression between the cope
                                    and
                                    > > drag
                                    > > > > halves. You can
                                    > > > > > build the cope and drag as adjustables but you will have
                                    make
                                    > > sure
                                    > > > > that they stay
                                    > > > > > rigid once you have rammed your sand in place. If they
                                    flex it
                                    > > > > will break the bonds of
                                    > > > > > the sand. You may be able to do this with screws into the
                                    > > endgrain
                                    > > > > to 'lock' the
                                    > > > > > adjustable side on each.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > When the pattern extends into the cope the crossbars were
                                    cut
                                    > > to
                                    > > > > conform to the
                                    > > > > > contour of the pattern making allowance for the facing
                                    sand.
                                    > > Let
                                    > > > > us know how it
                                    > > > > > works out for you
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > > > > > > Thanks all for the comments and referances for the Navy
                                    > > foundry
                                    > > > > > > Manuel Much appreciated........
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found this
                                    to
                                    > > be
                                    > > > > > > extremely annoying and timewasting especially when your
                                    > > closing
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > mold. I found The links on Terrys post to be very helpful
                                    on
                                    > > > > flask
                                    > > > > > > rails, I noticed that the rails were the full depth of
                                    the
                                    > > cope,
                                    > > > > > > Obviousley for flat patterns that sit in the drag only.
                                    How
                                    > > would
                                    > > > > you
                                    > > > > > > get on with patterns that protrude into the cope?, Do you
                                    > > just
                                    > > > > make
                                    > > > > > > up flasks to suit,with the rails contouring the pattern?.
                                    I
                                    > > was
                                    > > > > > > wanting to make up some flasks that I could use on all
                                    sorts
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > loose
                                    > > > > > > patterns, that have sand support rails like Terrys
                                    flasks.
                                    > > Maybe
                                    > > > > I
                                    > > > > > > could Router vertical channels in opposite sides of the
                                    cope
                                    > > so
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > rails can be adjusted and then locked somehow. Has anyone
                                    > > made
                                    > > > > flasks
                                    > > > > > > like this at all?, or is there other ways to support sand
                                    > > with
                                    > > > > > > patterns that protrude into the cope?
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Man I need some Foundry books!
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Thanks in advance
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Edyn......
                                  • Aaron Toney
                                    Ok, this weekend I am going to be trying green sand for the first time. Is there any simple test I can use to tell if there is an unsafe amount of moisture in
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                      Ok, this weekend I am going to be trying green sand for the first
                                      time. Is there any simple test I can use to tell if there is an unsafe
                                      amount of moisture in contained in the sand? I am pouring with a friend
                                      and he is worried about our making a steam bomb our of our cope and drag.
                                      For that matter I am not crazy about the idea myself.

                                      From everything I have been able to read as long as it clumps
                                      together well and does not actually feel wet or very moist I *think* I
                                      should be ok. Does anyone know of a better way to test sand prior to a
                                      melt?

                                      Thanks,

                                      Aaron
                                    • edynm
                                      Hi Aaron Working with greensand I found is best learnt by (Hands on Experiance),If the sand is too dry the main problem youll have is dropouts, If its too wet
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                        Hi Aaron

                                        Working with greensand I found is best learnt by (Hands on
                                        Experiance),If the sand is too dry the main problem youll have is
                                        dropouts, If its too wet youll not only have endlesss problems when
                                        trying to ram up a simple mold, but defective castings by the water
                                        steaming or bubbling when the molten al comes into contact with it.
                                        Pouring molten Al into an over tempered mold is extremely dangerous!

                                        There is an Old FoundryMan test however that when you get the hang
                                        works well. " Grab a handfull of sand in your hand and squeeze it
                                        into a ball in the palm of your hand, it should mold the shape of
                                        your hand when your palm is opened. There should be only a very
                                        >slight< touch of sand on the Palm of your hand and it should
                                        dissapear with a couple of light shakes. there should be Definitley
                                        no clay or moisture present. If there is its too Wet!. Now break the
                                        ball in two using your forefinger and thumb (IT SHOULD BREAK IN HALF
                                        CLEANLY). If it sort of crumbles and falls apart - its too dry!

                                        "Correctley tempered sand is a Joy - anything else is a Nightmare

                                        REMEMBER THIS.........

                                        "Temper slowly when mixing until the Greensand bonds (BREAKS IN HALF
                                        CLEANLY) and No More". Overtempering sand wont give it a better
                                        bonding characteristics but will just create problems. If your
                                        pouring the mold and it starts bubbling at the Sprue - STOP
                                        IMEDIATLEY AND STAND AWAY - POURING INTO A BUBBLING MOLD IS FUELLING
                                        A BOMB TO EXPLODE! It can erupt and blow molten Al everywhere. Wear
                                        Full body Safety Gear - Face sheild, leather Apron,gloves and boots.
                                        Dont Pour without it! Exposed Limbs = Lost limbs. Safety is
                                        First ,use common sense, dont rush,and treat everthing as HOT!

                                        Hope this helps

                                        Edyn
















                                        --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Toney <joeboy@h...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Ok, this weekend I am going to be trying green sand for the
                                        first
                                        > time. Is there any simple test I can use to tell if there is an
                                        unsafe
                                        > amount of moisture in contained in the sand? I am pouring with a
                                        friend
                                        > and he is worried about our making a steam bomb our of our cope and
                                        drag.
                                        > For that matter I am not crazy about the idea myself.
                                        >
                                        > From everything I have been able to read as long as it clumps
                                        > together well and does not actually feel wet or very moist I
                                        *think* I
                                        > should be ok. Does anyone know of a better way to test sand prior
                                        to a
                                        > melt?
                                        >
                                        > Thanks,
                                        >
                                        > Aaron
                                      • Ray Brandes
                                        Arron, The test we used in high school was to squeeze up a lump in our hand. Then, taking it by both ends, break it in half. If you get a clean break with no
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                          Arron,
                                          The test we used in high school was to squeeze up a lump in our hand.
                                          Then, taking it by both ends, break it in half. If you get a clean break
                                          with no crumbs then the moisture is right. Even with the correct
                                          moisture level, steam can pose a problem. You won't get an explosion,
                                          but it can effect your casting. Use lots of vents! Regards, Ray

                                          Aaron Toney wrote:

                                          > Ok, this weekend I am going to be trying green sand for the first
                                          >time. Is there any simple test I can use to tell if there is an unsafe
                                          >amount of moisture in contained in the sand? I am pouring with a friend
                                          >and he is worried about our making a steam bomb our of our cope and drag.
                                          >For that matter I am not crazy about the idea myself.
                                          >
                                          > From everything I have been able to read as long as it clumps
                                          >together well and does not actually feel wet or very moist I *think* I
                                          >should be ok. Does anyone know of a better way to test sand prior to a
                                          >melt?
                                          >
                                          > Thanks,
                                          >
                                          > Aaron
                                          >
                                          >This list is for discussion of metal casting
                                          >and does not accept attachments. For off topic discussion and to share photos and stuff: join Sandcrabs by sending a blank message to: sandcrabs-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                          >For additional file and picture space you may upload files of interest to:
                                          >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/castingproject
                                          >Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                          >http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                          >
                                          >Files area and list services are at:
                                          >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                          >
                                          >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          >hobbicast-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          >For problems that cannot be otherwise solved contact the list owner by email:
                                          >owly@...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Lyle
                                          Edyn, I meant 1x6 timber which is actually 3/4 x 5 1/2 . I don t know what the metric equilavent is. The only reason I use that size is that it s a common
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                            Edyn,
                                            I meant 1x6 timber which is actually 3/4" x 5 1/2". I don't know what
                                            the metric equilavent is. The only reason I use that size is that
                                            it's a common size and I don't need to rip it on a table saw. For my
                                            side supports, I just tack a piece of trim on the inside. About 1/2"
                                            x 1/4"
                                            Lyle

                                            --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                                            > Allen and Lyle, thanks for the input on this topic,
                                            >
                                            > Ill keep it in Mind to keep Cope depth no less than 3 1/2 inches
                                            up
                                            > to 14" sides, Use Rails over 18" and Attach the side supports to
                                            the
                                            > lower edge of the cope - Excellant Advice Thanks!
                                            >
                                            > Ive extended the top of the Flasks (Copes) I recently made so they
                                            > are just over 3" in depth with approx 10-11" sides and so far I
                                            > havent had a dropout problem. I was starting to think my Greensand
                                            > probs were re-occuring all over again but thanks to your guys
                                            advice
                                            > all is well.
                                            >
                                            > .....Lyle, I didnt understand what you were mentioning here ?
                                            > " I've got some 18" and 24 in flasks where I use 1/6's on."
                                            >
                                            > 1/6's? - Where you refering to (1"wide x 6"high Timber?) or (One
                                            > sixth of something?. Sorry here in New Zealand we use the Metric
                                            > system and I have trouble converting some of the the Imperial Slang.
                                            >
                                            > Just like to know for future referance, One day I may get to cast
                                            > something that will need an 18 - 24" flask......he he.
                                            >
                                            > Thanks again and thanks in advance.
                                            >
                                            > Regards Edyn..
                                            >
                                            > -----------------------snip----------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Edyn,
                                            > >
                                            > > I don't use side supports in my flasks (probably should) I do try
                                            > to keep at least 3"
                                            > > (7.6cm) of sand over the pattern on a 10"x10" (25.4cmx25.4cm)
                                            > cope. It has worked
                                            > > well for me. You can cheat if the pattern surface doesn't enter
                                            > the cope or if it is a
                                            > > small area of the cope surface. But I wouldn't go under 2 1/2"
                                            > (6.3cm). I've saved a
                                            > > lot of time by having to ram the cope twice when it dropped out
                                            on
                                            > me too.
                                            > >
                                            > > Let us know how it works out.
                                            > >
                                            > > Good Luck and G'day
                                            > > AL
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Allen - Thanks alot for the helpful comments. Some good advice.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I made up some flasks that were quite thin. Each flask being
                                            > approx
                                            > > > 2"deep and approx 10" sides, I made them quite thin to save
                                            time
                                            > > > ramming big flasks on small patterns.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I found that I kept having dropout problems and thats what led
                                            > me to
                                            > > > believe I needed to support the sand somehow. - (Using Rails).
                                            > When I
                                            > > > read your Post that mentioned you dont need rails on flasks any
                                            > > > smaller than 18 inches, led me to believe my flasks must be
                                            just
                                            > TOO
                                            > > > NARROW.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I have since screwed some wood strips onto the Cope Top, to
                                            give
                                            > > > more sand above the side supports. I rammed a couple of molds
                                            > this
                                            > > > weekend and no Dropouts so far!. I think the sand area was too
                                            > thin
                                            > > > above the side supports to hold the weight of the unsupported
                                            > sand in
                                            > > > the centre.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I was wondering as a guideline what depth you use above the
                                            side
                                            > > > supports with your Cope(s). This must be an Important feature
                                            > when
                                            > > > making up Flasks when using Greensand - as Ive found out!.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Ive seen flasks on websites that were narrow but they must be
                                            > using
                                            > > > Oil bonded sands?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Thanks In Advance..
                                            > > > Edyn
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Peter,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > A lot depends on the dimensions of the patterns you're trying
                                            > to
                                            > > > cast and the metal
                                            > > > > you're casting. Each has slightly different requirements. I
                                            > > > generally ram lots of sand
                                            > > > > as it's cheap and reusable. Re-riddle it and it's good to go.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I don't know of a formula necessarily because of the
                                            different
                                            > > > pouring temperatures
                                            > > > > that we have for the three most common metals we pour Al,
                                            > Bronze
                                            > > > and Cast Iron.
                                            > > > > There are some general rules of thumb that I use however. I
                                            > never
                                            > > > use less than 2" of
                                            > > > > sand between the drag sides / bottom board and the pattern no
                                            > > > matter how small it
                                            > > > > is. There are too many issues by going smaller (runout,
                                            sags,
                                            > > > drops, swell,
                                            > > > > combustion of drag and cope).
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Based on 1/2 inch thickness: If the pattern is 3' or less I
                                            use
                                            > 2"
                                            > > > between pattern and
                                            > > > > cope bottom and 2"on each side (4" total) minimum. Between
                                            3"-
                                            > 6"
                                            > > > I use 3" bottom
                                            > > > > and 3" per side each. 6"-12" The numbers go to 4" bottom and
                                            > 4"
                                            > > > per side each.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > As the thickness increases I increase the dimensions based on
                                            > the
                                            > > > mass of the
                                            > > > > casting. I would use more sand for a casting 4"Lx4"Wx2"D
                                            than
                                            > I
                                            > > > would for a similar
                                            > > > > casting 4"Lx4"Wx1/2"D. The dimensioning on the cope is
                                            similar
                                            > > > although I tend to
                                            > > > > increase the sand depth between the top of the pattern and
                                            the
                                            > top
                                            > > > of the cope for
                                            > > > > hydrostatic pressure. Always keep in mind the the sand
                                            > performs 3
                                            > > > functions it
                                            > > > > provides a negative of the pattern. It act as an insulator
                                            to
                                            > > > allow the metal to cool in
                                            > > > > a predictable way. Lastly and most importantly it is the
                                            first
                                            > and
                                            > > > best protection you
                                            > > > > have against molten metal that is anywhere from 1500-3100
                                            > Degrees F.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hope that wasn't to long winded.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Al
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "capebyron2003"
                                            > <sibleyp@l...>
                                            > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > > Allen,
                                            > > > > > that was very interesting. Is there some formula as to how
                                            > much
                                            > > > sand
                                            > > > > > should be allowed about and below the casting as a rough
                                            > rule ?
                                            > > > Say
                                            > > > > > on a 14" or 18" wide flask ?
                                            > > > > > regards,
                                            > > > > > Peter Sibley
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell"
                                            > <AHROXZ@A...>
                                            > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > > > Edyn,
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > I have been watching from the sidelines but felt
                                            compelled
                                            > to
                                            > > > throw
                                            > > > > > out some
                                            > > > > > > observations I have made.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Generally crossbars aren't needed until you get larger
                                            than
                                            > 18"
                                            > > > > > (45cm) unless the
                                            > > > > > > cope is thin for the expanse. Having a slight lip on the
                                            > > > bottom
                                            > > > > > edge of the cope will
                                            > > > > > > help to support the sand without crossbars but then you
                                            > have to
                                            > > > > > space it slightly off
                                            > > > > > > the matchplate (flatwashers) or there could be a lot of
                                            > flash
                                            > > > along
                                            > > > > > the parting line as
                                            > > > > > > you will not get the needed compression between the cope
                                            > and
                                            > > > drag
                                            > > > > > halves. You can
                                            > > > > > > build the cope and drag as adjustables but you will have
                                            > make
                                            > > > sure
                                            > > > > > that they stay
                                            > > > > > > rigid once you have rammed your sand in place. If they
                                            > flex it
                                            > > > > > will break the bonds of
                                            > > > > > > the sand. You may be able to do this with screws into
                                            the
                                            > > > endgrain
                                            > > > > > to 'lock' the
                                            > > > > > > adjustable side on each.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > When the pattern extends into the cope the crossbars were
                                            > cut
                                            > > > to
                                            > > > > > conform to the
                                            > > > > > > contour of the pattern making allowance for the facing
                                            > sand.
                                            > > > Let
                                            > > > > > us know how it
                                            > > > > > > works out for you
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > > > > > > > Thanks all for the comments and referances for the
                                            Navy
                                            > > > foundry
                                            > > > > > > > Manuel Much appreciated........
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found
                                            this
                                            > to
                                            > > > be
                                            > > > > > > > extremely annoying and timewasting especially when your
                                            > > > closing
                                            > > > > > the
                                            > > > > > > > mold. I found The links on Terrys post to be very
                                            helpful
                                            > on
                                            > > > > > flask
                                            > > > > > > > rails, I noticed that the rails were the full depth of
                                            > the
                                            > > > cope,
                                            > > > > > > > Obviousley for flat patterns that sit in the drag only.
                                            > How
                                            > > > would
                                            > > > > > you
                                            > > > > > > > get on with patterns that protrude into the cope?, Do
                                            you
                                            > > > just
                                            > > > > > make
                                            > > > > > > > up flasks to suit,with the rails contouring the
                                            pattern?.
                                            > I
                                            > > > was
                                            > > > > > > > wanting to make up some flasks that I could use on all
                                            > sorts
                                            > > > of
                                            > > > > > loose
                                            > > > > > > > patterns, that have sand support rails like Terrys
                                            > flasks.
                                            > > > Maybe
                                            > > > > > I
                                            > > > > > > > could Router vertical channels in opposite sides of the
                                            > cope
                                            > > > so
                                            > > > > > the
                                            > > > > > > > rails can be adjusted and then locked somehow. Has
                                            anyone
                                            > > > made
                                            > > > > > flasks
                                            > > > > > > > like this at all?, or is there other ways to support
                                            sand
                                            > > > with
                                            > > > > > > > patterns that protrude into the cope?
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Man I need some Foundry books!
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Edyn......
                                          • Roy
                                            When I initially started casting I did the squeeze and break test, and it appeared to be perfect. I had figured I had it made. My first pour was a disaster.
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                              When I initially started casting I did the squeeze and break test,
                                              and it appeared to be perfect. I had figured I had it made. My first
                                              pour was a disaster. One thing I did notice on my first casting was
                                              when I tried to riddle the sand into the flask, it would not really
                                              riddle all that well and sort of rolled around making larger balls of
                                              sand, and it would never pass through ther riddle without using hand
                                              pressure. So that was stelling me it was just too wet even though it
                                              passed the squeeze and break test. Make sure the sand will pass
                                              through a standard sized mesh riddle without clogging up. If it clogs
                                              its still too wet or too much bentonite or both.

                                              --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Ray Brandes <rvb@r...> wrote:
                                              > Arron,
                                              > The test we used in high school was to squeeze up a lump in our
                                              hand.
                                              > Then, taking it by both ends, break it in half. If you get a clean
                                              break
                                              > with no crumbs then the moisture is right. Even with the correct
                                              > moisture level, steam can pose a problem. You won't get an
                                              explosion,
                                              > but it can effect your casting. Use lots of vents! Regards, Ray
                                              >
                                              > Aaron Toney wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Ok, this weekend I am going to be trying green sand for the
                                              first
                                              > >time. Is there any simple test I can use to tell if there is an
                                              unsafe
                                              > >amount of moisture in contained in the sand? I am pouring with a
                                              friend
                                              > >and he is worried about our making a steam bomb our of our cope
                                              and drag.
                                              > >For that matter I am not crazy about the idea myself.
                                              > >
                                              > > From everything I have been able to read as long as it clumps
                                              > >together well and does not actually feel wet or very moist I
                                              *think* I
                                              > >should be ok. Does anyone know of a better way to test sand prior
                                              to a
                                              > >melt?
                                              > >
                                              > > Thanks,
                                              > >
                                              > > Aaron
                                              > >
                                              > >This list is for discussion of metal casting
                                              > >and does not accept attachments. For off topic discussion and to
                                              share photos and stuff: join Sandcrabs by sending a blank message
                                              to: sandcrabs-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                              > >For additional file and picture space you may upload files of
                                              interest to:
                                              > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/castingproject
                                              > >Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                              > >http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                              > >
                                              > >Files area and list services are at:
                                              > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                              > >
                                              > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > >hobbicast-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > >
                                              > >For problems that cannot be otherwise solved contact the list
                                              owner by email:
                                              > >owly@t...
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                            • john grant
                                              ... I will add that when you open your hand sand should not stick to your hand. John Grant
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                                Ray Brandes wrote:

                                                > Arron,
                                                > The test we used in high school was to squeeze up a lump in our hand.
                                                > Then, taking it by both ends, break it in half. If you get a clean break
                                                > with no crumbs then the moisture is right. Even with the correct
                                                > moisture level, steam can pose a problem. You won't get an explosion,
                                                > but it can effect your casting. Use lots of vents! Regards, Ray

                                                I will add that when you open your hand sand should not stick to your hand.

                                                John Grant
                                              • Allen Hutzell
                                                Edyn, Thought I detected an accent, Edyn. Lyle is referring to dimensions 2.54cmx15.24cm. You can use that dimension up to about 76cm a side. A helpful book
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                                  Edyn,

                                                  Thought I detected an accent, Edyn. Lyle is referring to dimensions
                                                  2.54cmx15.24cm. You can use that dimension up to about 76cm a side. A helpful
                                                  book on this is C.W. Ammen's Complete Handbook of Sand Casting. Lot of useful
                                                  info for the home caster.

                                                  Lots of luck in NZ
                                                  Regards and G'day
                                                  Al

                                                  --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                                                  > Allen and Lyle, thanks for the input on this topic,
                                                  >
                                                  > Ill keep it in Mind to keep Cope depth no less than 3 1/2 inches up
                                                  > to 14" sides, Use Rails over 18" and Attach the side supports to the
                                                  > lower edge of the cope - Excellant Advice Thanks!
                                                  >
                                                  > Ive extended the top of the Flasks (Copes) I recently made so they
                                                  > are just over 3" in depth with approx 10-11" sides and so far I
                                                  > havent had a dropout problem. I was starting to think my Greensand
                                                  > probs were re-occuring all over again but thanks to your guys advice
                                                  > all is well.
                                                  >
                                                  > .....Lyle, I didnt understand what you were mentioning here ?
                                                  > " I've got some 18" and 24 in flasks where I use 1/6's on."
                                                  >
                                                  > 1/6's? - Where you refering to (1"wide x 6"high Timber?) or (One
                                                  > sixth of something?. Sorry here in New Zealand we use the Metric
                                                  > system and I have trouble converting some of the the Imperial Slang.
                                                  >
                                                  > Just like to know for future referance, One day I may get to cast
                                                  > something that will need an 18 - 24" flask......he he.
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks again and thanks in advance.
                                                  >
                                                  > Regards Edyn..
                                                  >
                                                  > -----------------------snip----------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Edyn,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I don't use side supports in my flasks (probably should) I do try
                                                  > to keep at least 3"
                                                  > > (7.6cm) of sand over the pattern on a 10"x10" (25.4cmx25.4cm)
                                                  > cope. It has worked
                                                  > > well for me. You can cheat if the pattern surface doesn't enter
                                                  > the cope or if it is a
                                                  > > small area of the cope surface. But I wouldn't go under 2 1/2"
                                                  > (6.3cm). I've saved a
                                                  > > lot of time by having to ram the cope twice when it dropped out on
                                                  > me too.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Let us know how it works out.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Good Luck and G'day
                                                  > > AL
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Allen - Thanks alot for the helpful comments. Some good advice.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I made up some flasks that were quite thin. Each flask being
                                                  > approx
                                                  > > > 2"deep and approx 10" sides, I made them quite thin to save time
                                                  > > > ramming big flasks on small patterns.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I found that I kept having dropout problems and thats what led
                                                  > me to
                                                  > > > believe I needed to support the sand somehow. - (Using Rails).
                                                  > When I
                                                  > > > read your Post that mentioned you dont need rails on flasks any
                                                  > > > smaller than 18 inches, led me to believe my flasks must be just
                                                  > TOO
                                                  > > > NARROW.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I have since screwed some wood strips onto the Cope Top, to give
                                                  > > > more sand above the side supports. I rammed a couple of molds
                                                  > this
                                                  > > > weekend and no Dropouts so far!. I think the sand area was too
                                                  > thin
                                                  > > > above the side supports to hold the weight of the unsupported
                                                  > sand in
                                                  > > > the centre.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I was wondering as a guideline what depth you use above the side
                                                  > > > supports with your Cope(s). This must be an Important feature
                                                  > when
                                                  > > > making up Flasks when using Greensand - as Ive found out!.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Ive seen flasks on websites that were narrow but they must be
                                                  > using
                                                  > > > Oil bonded sands?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Thanks In Advance..
                                                  > > > Edyn
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell" <AHROXZ@A...>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Peter,
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > A lot depends on the dimensions of the patterns you're trying
                                                  > to
                                                  > > > cast and the metal
                                                  > > > > you're casting. Each has slightly different requirements. I
                                                  > > > generally ram lots of sand
                                                  > > > > as it's cheap and reusable. Re-riddle it and it's good to go.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > I don't know of a formula necessarily because of the different
                                                  > > > pouring temperatures
                                                  > > > > that we have for the three most common metals we pour Al,
                                                  > Bronze
                                                  > > > and Cast Iron.
                                                  > > > > There are some general rules of thumb that I use however. I
                                                  > never
                                                  > > > use less than 2" of
                                                  > > > > sand between the drag sides / bottom board and the pattern no
                                                  > > > matter how small it
                                                  > > > > is. There are too many issues by going smaller (runout, sags,
                                                  > > > drops, swell,
                                                  > > > > combustion of drag and cope).
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Based on 1/2 inch thickness: If the pattern is 3' or less I use
                                                  > 2"
                                                  > > > between pattern and
                                                  > > > > cope bottom and 2"on each side (4" total) minimum. Between 3"-
                                                  > 6"
                                                  > > > I use 3" bottom
                                                  > > > > and 3" per side each. 6"-12" The numbers go to 4" bottom and
                                                  > 4"
                                                  > > > per side each.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > As the thickness increases I increase the dimensions based on
                                                  > the
                                                  > > > mass of the
                                                  > > > > casting. I would use more sand for a casting 4"Lx4"Wx2"D than
                                                  > I
                                                  > > > would for a similar
                                                  > > > > casting 4"Lx4"Wx1/2"D. The dimensioning on the cope is similar
                                                  > > > although I tend to
                                                  > > > > increase the sand depth between the top of the pattern and the
                                                  > top
                                                  > > > of the cope for
                                                  > > > > hydrostatic pressure. Always keep in mind the the sand
                                                  > performs 3
                                                  > > > functions it
                                                  > > > > provides a negative of the pattern. It act as an insulator to
                                                  > > > allow the metal to cool in
                                                  > > > > a predictable way. Lastly and most importantly it is the first
                                                  > and
                                                  > > > best protection you
                                                  > > > > have against molten metal that is anywhere from 1500-3100
                                                  > Degrees F.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Hope that wasn't to long winded.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Al
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "capebyron2003"
                                                  > <sibleyp@l...>
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  > > > > > Allen,
                                                  > > > > > that was very interesting. Is there some formula as to how
                                                  > much
                                                  > > > sand
                                                  > > > > > should be allowed about and below the casting as a rough
                                                  > rule ?
                                                  > > > Say
                                                  > > > > > on a 14" or 18" wide flask ?
                                                  > > > > > regards,
                                                  > > > > > Peter Sibley
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "Allen Hutzell"
                                                  > <AHROXZ@A...>
                                                  > > > wrote:
                                                  > > > > > > Edyn,
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > I have been watching from the sidelines but felt compelled
                                                  > to
                                                  > > > throw
                                                  > > > > > out some
                                                  > > > > > > observations I have made.
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Generally crossbars aren't needed until you get larger than
                                                  > 18"
                                                  > > > > > (45cm) unless the
                                                  > > > > > > cope is thin for the expanse. Having a slight lip on the
                                                  > > > bottom
                                                  > > > > > edge of the cope will
                                                  > > > > > > help to support the sand without crossbars but then you
                                                  > have to
                                                  > > > > > space it slightly off
                                                  > > > > > > the matchplate (flatwashers) or there could be a lot of
                                                  > flash
                                                  > > > along
                                                  > > > > > the parting line as
                                                  > > > > > > you will not get the needed compression between the cope
                                                  > and
                                                  > > > drag
                                                  > > > > > halves. You can
                                                  > > > > > > build the cope and drag as adjustables but you will have
                                                  > make
                                                  > > > sure
                                                  > > > > > that they stay
                                                  > > > > > > rigid once you have rammed your sand in place. If they
                                                  > flex it
                                                  > > > > > will break the bonds of
                                                  > > > > > > the sand. You may be able to do this with screws into the
                                                  > > > endgrain
                                                  > > > > > to 'lock' the
                                                  > > > > > > adjustable side on each.
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > When the pattern extends into the cope the crossbars were
                                                  > cut
                                                  > > > to
                                                  > > > > > conform to the
                                                  > > > > > > contour of the pattern making allowance for the facing
                                                  > sand.
                                                  > > > Let
                                                  > > > > > us know how it
                                                  > > > > > > works out for you
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, "edynm" <edynm@y...>
                                                  > wrote:
                                                  > > > > > > > Thanks all for the comments and referances for the Navy
                                                  > > > foundry
                                                  > > > > > > > Manuel Much appreciated........
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Ive had the odd sand dropout now and then and found this
                                                  > to
                                                  > > > be
                                                  > > > > > > > extremely annoying and timewasting especially when your
                                                  > > > closing
                                                  > > > > > the
                                                  > > > > > > > mold. I found The links on Terrys post to be very helpful
                                                  > on
                                                  > > > > > flask
                                                  > > > > > > > rails, I noticed that the rails were the full depth of
                                                  > the
                                                  > > > cope,
                                                  > > > > > > > Obviousley for flat patterns that sit in the drag only.
                                                  > How
                                                  > > > would
                                                  > > > > > you
                                                  > > > > > > > get on with patterns that protrude into the cope?, Do you
                                                  > > > just
                                                  > > > > > make
                                                  > > > > > > > up flasks to suit,with the rails contouring the pattern?.
                                                  > I
                                                  > > > was
                                                  > > > > > > > wanting to make up some flasks that I could use on all
                                                  > sorts
                                                  > > > of
                                                  > > > > > loose
                                                  > > > > > > > patterns, that have sand support rails like Terrys
                                                  > flasks.
                                                  > > > Maybe
                                                  > > > > > I
                                                  > > > > > > > could Router vertical channels in opposite sides of the
                                                  > cope
                                                  > > > so
                                                  > > > > > the
                                                  > > > > > > > rails can be adjusted and then locked somehow. Has anyone
                                                  > > > made
                                                  > > > > > flasks
                                                  > > > > > > > like this at all?, or is there other ways to support sand
                                                  > > > with
                                                  > > > > > > > patterns that protrude into the cope?
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Man I need some Foundry books!
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Edyn......
                                                • DRF
                                                  I was wary the first couple times too, so I poured a couple open cavity type castings just to see the amount of steam I could expect. I could tell pretty much
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                                    I was wary the first couple times too, so I poured a couple open cavity
                                                    type castings just to see the amount of steam I could expect. I could tell
                                                    pretty much right away whether I was on the extreme side or not in regards
                                                    to moisture. It also seemed a little easier to know just how much steam
                                                    would need venting.

                                                    Doug
                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: Aaron Toney <joeboy@...>
                                                    To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 4:19 AM
                                                    Subject: [hobbicast] First time with green sand..


                                                    >
                                                    > Ok, this weekend I am going to be trying green sand for the first
                                                    >time. Is there any simple test I can use to tell if there is an unsafe
                                                    >amount of moisture in contained in the sand? I am pouring with a friend
                                                    >and he is worried about our making a steam bomb our of our cope and drag.
                                                    >For that matter I am not crazy about the idea myself.
                                                    >
                                                    > From everything I have been able to read as long as it clumps
                                                    >together well and does not actually feel wet or very moist I *think* I
                                                    >should be ok. Does anyone know of a better way to test sand prior to a
                                                    >melt?
                                                    >
                                                    > Thanks,
                                                    >
                                                    > Aaron
                                                    >
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                                                  • regor2morts
                                                    ... first ... unsafe ... friend ... and drag. ... *think* I ... to a
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Dec 10, 2003
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                                                      --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Toney <joeboy@h...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Ok, this weekend I am going to be trying green sand for the
                                                      first
                                                      > time. Is there any simple test I can use to tell if there is an
                                                      unsafe
                                                      > amount of moisture in contained in the sand? I am pouring with a
                                                      friend
                                                      > and he is worried about our making a steam bomb our of our cope
                                                      and drag.
                                                      > For that matter I am not crazy about the idea myself.
                                                      >
                                                      > From everything I have been able to read as long as it clumps
                                                      > together well and does not actually feel wet or very moist I
                                                      *think* I
                                                      > should be ok. Does anyone know of a better way to test sand prior
                                                      to a
                                                      > melt?
                                                      >
                                                      > Thanks,
                                                      >
                                                      > Aaron
                                                    • john grant
                                                      ... Happy to see that you are still working with English measurments ( 1 x 6 ) but prentending they are metric. John Grant
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Dec 11, 2003
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                                                        Allen Hutzell wrote:

                                                        > Edyn,
                                                        >
                                                        > Thought I detected an accent, Edyn. Lyle is referring to dimensions
                                                        > 2.54cmx15.24cm.

                                                        Happy to see that you are still working with English measurments ( 1 x 6 ) but prentending they are metric.

                                                        John Grant
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