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Brass casting

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  • antiquef
    From a newbee. Which furnace is better for casting yellow brass. Electric or propane? Or does it make any difference? What is the best book and/or website for
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 10, 2002
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      From a newbee.

      Which furnace is better for casting yellow brass. Electric or propane?
      Or does it make any difference?

      What is the best book and/or website for the beginner on brass
      casting? I appreciate any info.
    • Lyle
      Ok, I ll answer. Propane. It gets alot hotter and is easier to build. Get some silicon bronze from a supplier and have at it. I d pick silicon bronze for a
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 11, 2002
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        Ok,

        I'll answer.

        Propane. It gets alot hotter and is easier to build.

        Get some silicon bronze from a supplier and have at it. I'd pick
        silicon bronze for a beginner because its by for ahte easiest copper
        alloy to cast. You can get itin various designations and colors. 513B
        looks just like yellow brass but no flux or cover is required and no
        nasty fumes.

        There are books on casting brass but you won't really learn until you
        try it. Make a furnace and cast brass like in WA Cannon's book. You
        can build the whole set up for less than $100.

        LL

        --- In hobbicast@y..., "antiquef" <antiquef@b...> wrote:
        > From a newbee.
        >
        > Which furnace is better for casting yellow brass. Electric or
        propane?
        > Or does it make any difference?
        >
        > What is the best book and/or website for the beginner on brass
        > casting? I appreciate any info.
      • Brian Whatcott
        It s certainly good to see a straight answer to a newby question. It reminds me of how treacherous the words heat , heating and hot can be. Not to mention
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 11, 2002
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          It's certainly good to see a straight answer to a newby question.
          It reminds me of how treacherous the words 'heat', heating' and
          'hot' can be. Not to mention the word "efficiency" - efficiency of
          heating that is.

          This is what I have on the topic.
          Power.
          If you look at the power available from heat pumps for domestic housing,
          you can often see good looking numbers (in BTUs/hr) but the owners say
          the air from the pump is never really hot, so the place never feels really
          warm, but there's a lot of luke-warm air...

          So In melting metal, lotsa BTUs won't help if they are not delivered at a
          temperature comfortably over the melting temp.

          Efficiency.
          Nothing can beat electricity in this department: it is by its
          nature 100% efficient at turning watts into hot air.
          But that air cannot be hotter than the heating wire, and the wire cannot be
          hotter than its meting temperature, so that's a hard limit.

          A gas fired or oil fired furnace needs an exhaust, and that means some of
          that hot air goes away, so it's inefficient.
          But flames can be hotter than molten metals and usually are, so they are
          desirable.

          Blue flames.
          The hot gas from a flame is not all at one temperature,
          though you'd like it to be. If you can see an inner and an outer flame color,
          that's a giveaway....

          Regards

          Brian W

          At 07:40 PM 11/11/02, "Lyle" <creepinogie@...>, you wrote:
          >Ok,
          >
          >I'll answer.
          >
          >Propane. It gets alot hotter and is easier to build.
          >
          >Get some silicon bronze from a supplier and have at it. I'd pick
          >silicon bronze for a beginner because its by for ahte easiest copper
          >alloy to cast. You can get itin various designations and colors. 513B
          >looks just like yellow brass but no flux or cover is required and no
          >nasty fumes.
          >
          >There are books on casting brass but you won't really learn until you
          >try it. Make a furnace and cast brass like in WA Cannon's book. You
          >can build the whole set up for less than $100.
          >
          >LL
          >
          >--- In hobbicast@y..., "antiquef" <antiquef@b...> wrote:
          > > From a newbee.
          > >
          > > Which furnace is better for casting yellow brass. Electric or
          > > propane? Or does it make any difference?
          > >
          > > What is the best book and/or website for the beginner on brass
          > > casting? I appreciate any info.

          Brian Whatcott
          Altus OK Eureka!
        • Ron Thompson
          Our sponsor, Budget casting supply has this: #7101 Kanthal Heating Element, 2300 °F Max How much heat do you need? On Ray s site:
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 11, 2002
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            Our sponsor, Budget casting supply has this:

            #7101 Kanthal Heating Element, 2300 °F Max


            How much heat do you need? On Ray's site:
            http://www.ray-vin.com/casting/tempchart.jpg

            (in case you are not familiar with http://budgetcastingsupply.com/, Please note that the prices quoted on the site include delivery in the US.)

            Ron Thompson
            49 year old machine shop student
            On the Beautiful Mississippi Gulf Coast
            USA

            http://www.plansandprojects.com

            The following added for automatic email harvesters!
            abuse@... abuse@... abuse@... abuse@... UCE@...

            ******************
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Brian Whatcott
            To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:03 PM
            Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Brass casting


            It's certainly good to see a straight answer to a newby question.
            It reminds me of how treacherous the words 'heat', heating' and
            'hot' can be. Not to mention the word "efficiency" - efficiency of
            heating that is.

            This is what I have on the topic.
            Power.
            If you look at the power available from heat pumps for domestic housing,
            you can often see good looking numbers (in BTUs/hr) but the owners say
            the air from the pump is never really hot, so the place never feels really
            warm, but there's a lot of luke-warm air...

            So In melting metal, lotsa BTUs won't help if they are not delivered at a
            temperature comfortably over the melting temp.

            Efficiency.
            Nothing can beat electricity in this department: it is by its
            nature 100% efficient at turning watts into hot air.
            But that air cannot be hotter than the heating wire, and the wire cannot be
            hotter than its meting temperature, so that's a hard limit.

            A gas fired or oil fired furnace needs an exhaust, and that means some of
            that hot air goes away, so it's inefficient.
            But flames can be hotter than molten metals and usually are, so they are
            desirable.

            Blue flames.
            The hot gas from a flame is not all at one temperature,
            though you'd like it to be. If you can see an inner and an outer flame color,
            that's a giveaway....

            Regards

            Brian W

            At 07:40 PM 11/11/02, "Lyle" <creepinogie@...>, you wrote:
            >Ok,
            >
            >I'll answer.
            >
            >Propane. It gets alot hotter and is easier to build.
            >
            >Get some silicon bronze from a supplier and have at it. I'd pick
            >silicon bronze for a beginner because its by for ahte easiest copper
            >alloy to cast. You can get itin various designations and colors. 513B
            >looks just like yellow brass but no flux or cover is required and no
            >nasty fumes.
            >
            >There are books on casting brass but you won't really learn until you
            >try it. Make a furnace and cast brass like in WA Cannon's book. You
            >can build the whole set up for less than $100.
            >
            >LL
            >
            >--- In hobbicast@y..., "antiquef" <antiquef@b...> wrote:
            > > From a newbee.
            > >
            > > Which furnace is better for casting yellow brass. Electric or
            > > propane? Or does it make any difference?
            > >
            > > What is the best book and/or website for the beginner on brass
            > > casting? I appreciate any info.

            Brian Whatcott
            Altus OK Eureka!


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rupert
            I seems no one is doing any casting at the moment so I figured I d rub a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did a successful brass pour
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 17, 2012
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              I seems no one is doing any casting at the moment so I figured I'd rub
              a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did a
              successful brass pour today. Pic attached.
              I'm making a plunger (piston) for a deep well pump cylinder. I also
              poured a couple of other castings while I was at it which I didn't
              include in the picture.
              A guy gave me a pail of brass turnings from his lathe to melt. I
              never melted lathe turnings before so I thought I'd give it a try. The
              chips looked clean but I still had about 1/4 of the crucible of slag and
              what looks like ashes. That makes very poor scrap in my opinion.

              Rupert
              --

              yvt

              Rupert Wenig
              Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

              email: rwenig2@...

              http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/

              ----------

              -----
              No virus found in this message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5896 - Release Date: 11/15/12

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • oldstudentmsgt
              Unless you have the equipment to melt chips like that in an inert atmosphere, this is likely the way it will work out. Lots of surface area to oxidize, among
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
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                Unless you have the equipment to melt chips like that in an inert atmosphere, this is likely the way it will work out. Lots of surface area to oxidize, among other things. If you must melt that sort of scrap, probably best to have a pool of molten metal to melt the scraps (or aluminum cans)in faster, thereby reducing the exposure while heating the metal. Also, if cutting fluids were used or the metal was painted or otherwise coated, you have to burn the residue off the scraps, adding to the crud in the melt.

                I've not done any real metal casting in a few years, but I did lots of bullets from scrap wheel weights back in the day. Been working on my workshop in my (very rare) spare time, and may finally be able to build my own furnace here in a few weeks or months, as well as the area to use it in my back yard.

                I've got an assortment of hot water heaters, freon tanks, #10 cans, and a rather rusty air tank that might make a decent small forge to play with. I'll need them to cast parts for the mini-lathe I finally got set up, and the Atlas MF mill I hope to set up today. I figure to build the coffee-can furnace first, and a somewhat larger one in a small freon can second, with Mikey burners to fire them. Then we'll see if I need to build the other stuff sooner or later. ;)

                Don't hold your breathe waiting, though. ;)

                Bill in OKC







                --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Rupert <rwenig2@...> wrote:
                >
                > I seems no one is doing any casting at the moment so I figured I'd rub
                > a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did a
                > successful brass pour today. Pic attached.
                > I'm making a plunger (piston) for a deep well pump cylinder. I also
                > poured a couple of other castings while I was at it which I didn't
                > include in the picture.
                > A guy gave me a pail of brass turnings from his lathe to melt. I
                > never melted lathe turnings before so I thought I'd give it a try. The
                > chips looked clean but I still had about 1/4 of the crucible of slag and
                > what looks like ashes. That makes very poor scrap in my opinion.
                >
                > Rupert
                > --
                >
                > yvt
                >
                > Rupert Wenig
                > Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
                >
                > email: rwenig2@...
                >
                > http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                >
                > ----------
                >
                > -----
                > No virus found in this message.
                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5896 - Release Date: 11/15/12
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Don Buchan
                I just went to your page and noticed you build the same furnace as mine with a different burner style. I have never tried to melt iron in mine but it looks
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
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                  I just went to your page and noticed you build the same furnace as mine with a different burner style. I have never tried to melt iron in mine but it looks like you did. How well does that work?

                  Nice to see another Canadian at this to. I'm in Portage la Prairie, Manitoba

                  Don

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Rupert
                  To: HomeFoundry@yahoogroups.com ; hobbicast List
                  Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 11:33 PM
                  Subject: [hobbicast] Brass casting



                  I seems no one is doing any casting at the moment so I figured I'd rub
                  a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did a
                  successful brass pour today. Pic attached.
                  I'm making a plunger (piston) for a deep well pump cylinder. I also
                  poured a couple of other castings while I was at it which I didn't
                  include in the picture.
                  A guy gave me a pail of brass turnings from his lathe to melt. I
                  never melted lathe turnings before so I thought I'd give it a try. The
                  chips looked clean but I still had about 1/4 of the crucible of slag and
                  what looks like ashes. That makes very poor scrap in my opinion.

                  Rupert
                  --

                  yvt

                  Rupert Wenig
                  Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

                  email: rwenig2@...

                  http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/

                  ----------

                  -----
                  No virus found in this message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5896 - Release Date: 11/15/12

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Carl
                  Bill:What if you mixed the chips with a paste of flour and water and rammed them into a pipe to create solid little cylinders? Then the whole cylinder could be
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
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                    Bill:What if you mixed the chips with a paste of flour and water and rammed them into a pipe to create solid little cylinders? Then the whole cylinder could be pushed under the molten metal allowing little air exposure to oxidize the metal. You would really have to make sure the cylinders were completely free of moisture. I don't know if it would work or even be worth the trouble. Maybe for  brass or copper but not aluminum. Carl


                    ________________________________
                    From: oldstudentmsgt <wmrmeyers@...>
                    To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 5:44 AM
                    Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Brass casting


                     
                    Unless you have the equipment to melt chips like that in an inert atmosphere, this is likely the way it will work out. Lots of surface area to oxidize, among other things. If you must melt that sort of scrap, probably best to have a pool of molten metal to melt the scraps (or aluminum cans)in faster, thereby reducing the exposure while heating the metal. Also, if cutting fluids were used or the metal was painted or otherwise coated, you have to burn the residue off the scraps, adding to the crud in the melt.

                    I've not done any real metal casting in a few years, but I did lots of bullets from scrap wheel weights back in the day. Been working on my workshop in my (very rare) spare time, and may finally be able to build my own furnace here in a few weeks or months, as well as the area to use it in my back yard.

                    I've got an assortment of hot water heaters, freon tanks, #10 cans, and a rather rusty air tank that might make a decent small forge to play with. I'll need them to cast parts for the mini-lathe I finally got set up, and the Atlas MF mill I hope to set up today. I figure to build the coffee-can furnace first, and a somewhat larger one in a small freon can second, with Mikey burners to fire them. Then we'll see if I need to build the other stuff sooner or later. ;)

                    Don't hold your breathe waiting, though. ;)

                    Bill in OKC

                    --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Rupert <rwenig2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I seems no one is doing any casting at the moment so I figured I'd rub
                    > a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did a
                    > successful brass pour today. Pic attached.
                    > I'm making a plunger (piston) for a deep well pump cylinder. I also
                    > poured a couple of other castings while I was at it which I didn't
                    > include in the picture.
                    > A guy gave me a pail of brass turnings from his lathe to melt. I
                    > never melted lathe turnings before so I thought I'd give it a try. The
                    > chips looked clean but I still had about 1/4 of the crucible of slag and
                    > what looks like ashes. That makes very poor scrap in my opinion.
                    >
                    > Rupert
                    > --
                    >
                    > yvt
                    >
                    > Rupert Wenig
                    > Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
                    >
                    > email: rwenig2@...
                    >
                    > http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                    >
                    > ----------
                    >
                    > -----
                    > No virus found in this message.
                    > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5896 - Release Date: 11/15/12
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Rupert
                    Hello Don, I haven t done any cast iron melts since before April, 2005 and my foundry log book is lost so I m answering from memory. It has taken me this long
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
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                      Hello Don,
                      I haven't done any cast iron melts since before April, 2005 and my
                      foundry log book is lost so I'm answering from memory. It has taken me
                      this long to rebuild what was lost. The cast iron melt went well using
                      the setup I have. I takes about 1 1/4 hours to get a #8 crucible full of
                      iron and up to pouring temperatures. I did most of the cast iron melts
                      I've done in the summer times when the air temp is warm enough to keep
                      the propane bottles from freezing. I have two 100# propane bottles
                      hooked up in parallel to extend the operating time before the bottles
                      freeze up. My burner draws about 10# of propane when operating at 20PSI
                      propane pressure. That equates to about 285000 BTU output. My furnace is
                      built using Gingery's plans as a guide. About the only thing that is
                      changed is the size of the exhaust port to accommodate a naturally
                      aspirated burner. The burner port is also changed slightly. The plans
                      for the burner are published on Ron Reil's site. Look for the Monster
                      burner. I've been intending on trying out a Porter burner but I'm happy
                      with the way the Monster burner works.

                      I'm quite sure you can melt cast iron with your setup if you can melt
                      brass and particularly bronze. The heating time just takes a bit longer.
                      I forgot this group doesn't allow attachments so I put a copy of the
                      picture in my Photos folder.

                      Rupert

                      On 11/18/2012 7:28 AM, Don Buchan wrote:
                      > I just went to your page and noticed you build the same furnace as
                      > mine with a different burner style. I have never tried to melt iron
                      > in mine but it looks like you did. How well does that work?
                      >
                      > Nice to see another Canadian at this to. I'm in Portage la Prairie,
                      > Manitoba
                      >
                      > Don

                      --

                      yvt

                      Rupert Wenig
                      Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

                      email: rwenig2@...

                      http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                    • Rupert
                      Sorry. I forgot this group doesn t allow attachments. I posted the picture in the photos section in my folder. It s long but a direct link (if it works) is
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Sorry. I forgot this group doesn't allow attachments. I posted the
                        picture in the photos section in my folder. It's long but a direct link
                        (if it works) is
                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast/photos/album/806789944/pic/114990428/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&count=20&dir=asc>

                        Rupert

                        On 11/17/2012 10:33 PM, Rupert wrote:

                        > a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did a
                        > successful brass pour today. Pic attached.

                        --

                        yvt

                        Rupert Wenig
                        Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

                        email: rwenig2@...

                        http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                      • Rupert
                        Hello Bill, I think your so right about the problems trying to melt chips. But, I did get 5 gallons of them delivered free. It takes a long time doing the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Bill,
                          I think your so right about the problems trying to melt chips. But, I
                          did get 5 gallons of them delivered free.

                          It takes a long time doing the building yourself specially if one has a
                          day job to get in the way. I think I can say I'm finally done rebuilding
                          what was lost in the 2005 prairie fire.

                          Rupert

                          On 11/18/2012 6:44 AM, oldstudentmsgt wrote:
                          > Unless you have the equipment to melt chips like that in an inert
                          > atmosphere, this is likely the way it will work out. Lots of surface
                          > area to oxidize, among other things. If you must melt that sort of
                          > scrap, probably best to have a pool of molten metal to melt the
                          > scraps (or aluminum cans)in faster, thereby reducing the exposure
                          > while heating the metal. Also, if cutting fluids were used or the
                          > metal was painted or otherwise coated, you have to burn the residue
                          > off the scraps, adding to the crud in the melt.
                          >
                          > I've not done any real metal casting in a few years, but I did lots
                          > of bullets from scrap wheel weights back in the day. Been working on
                          > my workshop in my (very rare) spare time, and may finally be able to
                          > build my own furnace here in a few weeks or months, as well as the
                          > area to use it in my back yard.
                          >
                          > I've got an assortment of hot water heaters, freon tanks, #10 cans,
                          > and a rather rusty air tank that might make a decent small forge to
                          > play with. I'll need them to cast parts for the mini-lathe I finally
                          > got set up, and the Atlas MF mill I hope to set up today. I figure to
                          > build the coffee-can furnace first, and a somewhat larger one in a
                          > small freon can second, with Mikey burners to fire them. Then we'll
                          > see if I need to build the other stuff sooner or later. ;)
                          >
                          > Don't hold your breathe waiting, though. ;)
                          >
                          > Bill in OKC
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Rupert <rwenig2@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> I seems no one is doing any casting at the moment so I figured I'd
                          >> rub a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did
                          >> a successful brass pour today. Pic attached. I'm making a plunger
                          >> (piston) for a deep well pump cylinder. I also poured a couple of
                          >> other castings while I was at it which I didn't include in the
                          >> picture. A guy gave me a pail of brass turnings from his lathe to
                          >> melt. I never melted lathe turnings before so I thought I'd give it
                          >> a try. The chips looked clean but I still had about 1/4 of the
                          >> crucible of slag and what looks like ashes. That makes very poor
                          >> scrap in my opinion.
                          >>
                          >> Rupert --
                          >>
                          >> yvt
                          >>
                          >> Rupert Wenig Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
                          >>
                          >> email: rwenig2@... http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                          >>
                          >> ----------
                          >>
                          >> ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                          >> Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5896 - Release Date:
                          >> 11/15/12
                          >>
                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
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                          > 11/15/12
                          >
                          >

                          --

                          yvt

                          Rupert Wenig
                          Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

                          email: rwenig2@...

                          http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                        • KARUTURI VENKATA NARAYANA
                          Melting chips require either flux or briquitting. Borax is very good flux for brass. this reduces oxidation, cleans liquid metal. Narayana
                          Message 12 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
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                            Melting chips require either flux or briquitting. Borax is very good flux for brass. this reduces oxidation, cleans liquid metal.


                            Narayana



                            ________________________________
                            From: Rupert <rwenig2@...>
                            To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, 18 November 2012 8:55 PM
                            Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Brass casting


                             
                            Hello Bill,
                            I think your so right about the problems trying to melt chips. But, I
                            did get 5 gallons of them delivered free.

                            It takes a long time doing the building yourself specially if one has a
                            day job to get in the way. I think I can say I'm finally done rebuilding
                            what was lost in the 2005 prairie fire.

                            Rupert

                            On 11/18/2012 6:44 AM, oldstudentmsgt wrote:
                            > Unless you have the equipment to melt chips like that in an inert
                            > atmosphere, this is likely the way it will work out. Lots of surface
                            > area to oxidize, among other things. If you must melt that sort of
                            > scrap, probably best to have a pool of molten metal to melt the
                            > scraps (or aluminum cans)in faster, thereby reducing the exposure
                            > while heating the metal. Also, if cutting fluids were used or the
                            > metal was painted or otherwise coated, you have to burn the residue
                            > off the scraps, adding to the crud in the melt.
                            >
                            > I've not done any real metal casting in a few years, but I did lots
                            > of bullets from scrap wheel weights back in the day. Been working on
                            > my workshop in my (very rare) spare time, and may finally be able to
                            > build my own furnace here in a few weeks or months, as well as the
                            > area to use it in my back yard.
                            >
                            > I've got an assortment of hot water heaters, freon tanks, #10 cans,
                            > and a rather rusty air tank that might make a decent small forge to
                            > play with. I'll need them to cast parts for the mini-lathe I finally
                            > got set up, and the Atlas MF mill I hope to set up today. I figure to
                            > build the coffee-can furnace first, and a somewhat larger one in a
                            > small freon can second, with Mikey burners to fire them. Then we'll
                            > see if I need to build the other stuff sooner or later. ;)
                            >
                            > Don't hold your breathe waiting, though. ;)
                            >
                            > Bill in OKC
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Rupert <rwenig2@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> I seems no one is doing any casting at the moment so I figured I'd
                            >> rub a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did
                            >> a successful brass pour today. Pic attached. I'm making a plunger
                            >> (piston) for a deep well pump cylinder. I also poured a couple of
                            >> other castings while I was at it which I didn't include in the
                            >> picture. A guy gave me a pail of brass turnings from his lathe to
                            >> melt. I never melted lathe turnings before so I thought I'd give it
                            >> a try. The chips looked clean but I still had about 1/4 of the
                            >> crucible of slag and what looks like ashes. That makes very poor
                            >> scrap in my opinion.
                            >>
                            >> Rupert --
                            >>
                            >> yvt
                            >>
                            >> Rupert Wenig Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
                            >>
                            >> email: rwenig2@... http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                            >>
                            >> ----------
                            >>
                            >> ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            >> Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5896 - Release Date:
                            >> 11/15/12
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues this list does not
                            > accept attachments.
                            >
                            > Files area and list services are at:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                            >
                            > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions check out
                            > these two affiliated sites: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                            >
                            > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                            > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                            >
                            > List Owner: owly@...
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                            > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5896 - Release Date:
                            > 11/15/12
                            >
                            >

                            --

                            yvt

                            Rupert Wenig
                            Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

                            email: rwenig2@...

                            http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • KARUTURI VENKATA NARAYANA
                            Briquitting machines are available for chips. If one go for large scale melting of chips, then briquetting is preferred. Narayana
                            Message 13 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Briquitting machines are available for chips. If one go for large scale melting of chips, then briquetting is preferred.

                              Narayana



                              ________________________________
                              From: Carl <carl_r2000@...>
                              To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sunday, 18 November 2012 8:33 PM
                              Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Brass casting


                               
                              Bill:What if you mixed the chips with a paste of flour and water and rammed them into a pipe to create solid little cylinders? Then the whole cylinder could be pushed under the molten metal allowing little air exposure to oxidize the metal. You would really have to make sure the cylinders were completely free of moisture. I don't know if it would work or even be worth the trouble. Maybe for  brass or copper but not aluminum. Carl

                              ________________________________
                              From: oldstudentmsgt <wmrmeyers@...>
                              To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 5:44 AM
                              Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Brass casting


                               
                              Unless you have the equipment to melt chips like that in an inert atmosphere, this is likely the way it will work out. Lots of surface area to oxidize, among other things. If you must melt that sort of scrap, probably best to have a pool of molten metal to melt the scraps (or aluminum cans)in faster, thereby reducing the exposure while heating the metal. Also, if cutting fluids were used or the metal was painted or otherwise coated, you have to burn the residue off the scraps, adding to the crud in the melt.

                              I've not done any real metal casting in a few years, but I did lots of bullets from scrap wheel weights back in the day. Been working on my workshop in my (very rare) spare time, and may finally be able to build my own furnace here in a few weeks or months, as well as the area to use it in my back yard.

                              I've got an assortment of hot water heaters, freon tanks, #10 cans, and a rather rusty air tank that might make a decent small forge to play with. I'll need them to cast parts for the mini-lathe I finally got set up, and the Atlas MF mill I hope to set up today. I figure to build the coffee-can furnace first, and a somewhat larger one in a small freon can second, with Mikey burners to fire them. Then we'll see if I need to build the other stuff sooner or later. ;)

                              Don't hold your breathe waiting, though. ;)

                              Bill in OKC

                              --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Rupert <rwenig2@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I seems no one is doing any casting at the moment so I figured I'd rub
                              > a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did a
                              > successful brass pour today. Pic attached.
                              > I'm making a plunger (piston) for a deep well pump cylinder. I also
                              > poured a couple of other castings while I was at it which I didn't
                              > include in the picture.
                              > A guy gave me a pail of brass turnings from his lathe to melt. I
                              > never melted lathe turnings before so I thought I'd give it a try. The
                              > chips looked clean but I still had about 1/4 of the crucible of slag and
                              > what looks like ashes. That makes very poor scrap in my opinion.
                              >
                              > Rupert
                              > --
                              >
                              > yvt
                              >
                              > Rupert Wenig
                              > Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
                              >
                              > email: rwenig2@...
                              >
                              > http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                              >
                              > ----------
                              >
                              > -----
                              > No virus found in this message.
                              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                              > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5896 - Release Date: 11/15/12
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Carl
                              How would a briquitting machine make the briquitts? Basically that is what I was trying to do manually. I don t have enough chips to justify a machine but I
                              Message 14 of 27 , Nov 18, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                How would a briquitting machine make the briquitts? Basically that is what I was trying to do manually. I don't have enough chips to justify a machine but I have enough time for a slow hand method. Any info on how this machine works would be helpful. Thanks Carl


                                ________________________________
                                From: KARUTURI VENKATA NARAYANA <sreemetals@...>
                                To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 9:11 AM
                                Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Brass casting


                                 
                                Briquitting machines are available for chips. If one go for large scale melting of chips, then briquetting is preferred.

                                Narayana

                                ________________________________
                                From: Carl <carl_r2000@...>
                                To: "hobbicast@yahoogroups.com" <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sunday, 18 November 2012 8:33 PM
                                Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: Brass casting


                                 
                                Bill:What if you mixed the chips with a paste of flour and water and rammed them into a pipe to create solid little cylinders? Then the whole cylinder could be pushed under the molten metal allowing little air exposure to oxidize the metal. You would really have to make sure the cylinders were completely free of moisture. I don't know if it would work or even be worth the trouble. Maybe for  brass or copper but not aluminum. Carl

                                ________________________________
                                From: oldstudentmsgt <wmrmeyers@...>
                                To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2012 5:44 AM
                                Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Brass casting

                                 
                                Unless you have the equipment to melt chips like that in an inert atmosphere, this is likely the way it will work out. Lots of surface area to oxidize, among other things. If you must melt that sort of scrap, probably best to have a pool of molten metal to melt the scraps (or aluminum cans)in faster, thereby reducing the exposure while heating the metal. Also, if cutting fluids were used or the metal was painted or otherwise coated, you have to burn the residue off the scraps, adding to the crud in the melt.

                                I've not done any real metal casting in a few years, but I did lots of bullets from scrap wheel weights back in the day. Been working on my workshop in my (very rare) spare time, and may finally be able to build my own furnace here in a few weeks or months, as well as the area to use it in my back yard.

                                I've got an assortment of hot water heaters, freon tanks, #10 cans, and a rather rusty air tank that might make a decent small forge to play with. I'll need them to cast parts for the mini-lathe I finally got set up, and the Atlas MF mill I hope to set up today. I figure to build the coffee-can furnace first, and a somewhat larger one in a small freon can second, with Mikey burners to fire them. Then we'll see if I need to build the other stuff sooner or later. ;)

                                Don't hold your breathe waiting, though. ;)

                                Bill in OKC

                                --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Rupert <rwenig2@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I seems no one is doing any casting at the moment so I figured I'd rub
                                > a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did a
                                > successful brass pour today. Pic attached.
                                > I'm making a plunger (piston) for a deep well pump cylinder. I also
                                > poured a couple of other castings while I was at it which I didn't
                                > include in the picture.
                                > A guy gave me a pail of brass turnings from his lathe to melt. I
                                > never melted lathe turnings before so I thought I'd give it a try. The
                                > chips looked clean but I still had about 1/4 of the crucible of slag and
                                > what looks like ashes. That makes very poor scrap in my opinion.
                                >
                                > Rupert
                                > --
                                >
                                > yvt
                                >
                                > Rupert Wenig
                                > Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
                                >
                                > email: rwenig2@...
                                >
                                > http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                                >
                                > ----------
                                >
                                > -----
                                > No virus found in this message.
                                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5896 - Release Date: 11/15/12
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • grumpygrady
                                not trying to be a d### but why are you worried about how much dross you get when you melt your scrap? as long as your scrap is free you come out ahead and
                                Message 15 of 27 , Nov 19, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  not trying to be a d### but why are you worried about how much dross you get when you melt your scrap?
                                  as long as your scrap is free you come out ahead
                                  and every pot of metal needs to have the dross pulled off
                                  just add a little borax to the pot and melt
                                  or use 20 mule team washing powder same thing
                                  LOL ok i seem to have gone on to long but before i stop think about this,
                                  it would be great if we didn't have any dross at all but we do
                                  lol it is like melting cans ,everyone poo-poos using cans because of the dross but they are free and they are around and it makes fine metal to pour little things to learn how to do this hobby


                                  people seem to forget that you can melt metal in a hole in the ground using wood and no crucible ,not the best way maybe but it can be done
                                  So many folks get hung up on trying to do and using the newest and latest do-dads that they never ever get to the melting metal part they just keep building and collecting this or that and then they lose interest and stop

                                  --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Rupert <rwenig2@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I seems no one is doing any casting at the moment so I figured I'd rub
                                  > a bit..... maybe I can get some action going............I did a
                                  > successful brass pour today. Pic attached.
                                  > I'm making a plunger (piston) for a deep well pump cylinder. I also
                                  > poured a couple of other castings while I was at it which I didn't
                                  > include in the picture.
                                  > A guy gave me a pail of brass turnings from his lathe to melt. I
                                  > never melted lathe turnings before so I thought I'd give it a try. The
                                  > chips looked clean but I still had about 1/4 of the crucible of slag and
                                  > what looks like ashes. That makes very poor scrap in my opinion.
                                  >
                                  > Rupert
                                  > --
                                  >
                                  > yvt
                                  >
                                  > Rupert Wenig
                                  > Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
                                  >
                                  > email: rwenig2@...
                                  >
                                  > http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                                  >
                                  > ----------
                                  >
                                  > -----
                                  > No virus found in this message.
                                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                  > Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2629/5896 - Release Date: 11/15/12
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Rupert
                                  Hello Guys, I posted a picture of the final result ready to go to work. The picture is in my folder or the direct link is
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hello Guys,
                                    I posted a picture of the final result ready to go to work. The picture
                                    is in my folder or the direct link is
                                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast/photos/recent/740537477/view>

                                    Rupert

                                    --

                                    yvt

                                    Rupert Wenig
                                    Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

                                    email: rwenig2@...

                                    http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                                  • Nick Andrews
                                    Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for windmills. Nick A ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                                      windmills.

                                      Nick A
                                      On Nov 23, 2012 6:18 PM, "Rupert" <rwenig2@...> wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hello Guys,
                                      > I posted a picture of the final result ready to go to work. The picture
                                      > is in my folder or the direct link is
                                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast/photos/recent/740537477/view>
                                      >
                                      > Rupert
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      >
                                      > yvt
                                      >
                                      > Rupert Wenig
                                      > Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
                                      >
                                      > email: rwenig2@...
                                      >
                                      > http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Rupert
                                      Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most were driven by small
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                                        submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most were
                                        driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                                        1/2-2 HP.
                                        These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
                                        my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                                        jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the trailer
                                        around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.

                                        Rupert

                                        On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                        > Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                                        > windmills.
                                        >
                                        > Nick A

                                        --

                                        yvt

                                        Rupert Wenig
                                        Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

                                        email: rwenig2@...

                                        http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                                      • StoneTool
                                        These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately. They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For stock watering a pump
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                                          They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                                          stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                                          little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                                          screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                                          amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                                          fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                                          efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                                          a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                                          should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                                          Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                                          must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                                          do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                                          and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                                          in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                                          serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                                          or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                                          start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                                          setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                                          simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                                          sub zero temps without a person in attendance.


                                          Howard

                                          On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                                          > Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                                          > submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most were
                                          > driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                                          > 1/2-2 HP.
                                          > These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
                                          > my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                                          > jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the trailer
                                          > around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                                          >
                                          > Rupert
                                          >
                                          > On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                          >> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                                          >> windmills.
                                          >>
                                          >> Nick A
                                        • Nick Andrews
                                          The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part of the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent. You need a big
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part of
                                            the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                                            You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter out
                                            as needed in drinker tubs...


                                            On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:

                                            > **
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                                            > They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                                            > stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                                            > little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                                            > screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                                            > amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                                            > fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                                            > efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                                            > a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                                            > should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                                            > Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                                            > must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                                            > do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                                            > and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                                            > in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                                            > serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                                            > or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                                            > start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                                            > setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                                            > simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                                            > sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                                            >
                                            > Howard
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                                            > > Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                                            > > submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most were
                                            > > driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                                            > > 1/2-2 HP.
                                            > > These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
                                            > > my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                                            > > jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the trailer
                                            > > around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                                            > >
                                            > > Rupert
                                            > >
                                            > > On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                            > >> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                                            > >> windmills.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Nick A
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >



                                            --
                                            Nick A

                                            "You know what I wish? I wish that all the scum of the world had but a
                                            single throat, and I had my hands about it..." Rorschach, 1975

                                            "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
                                            safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical
                                            Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

                                            "Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the
                                            streets after them." Bill Vaughan

                                            "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."
                                            Plato


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Wonk
                                            Rupert, Your work is nice looking as always,Thanks for sharing! Wonk
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Nov 23, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Rupert,

                                              Your work is nice looking as always,Thanks for sharing!

                                              Wonk

                                              --- In hobbicast@yahoogroups.com, Rupert <rwenig2@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello Guys,
                                              > I posted a picture of the final result ready to go to work. The picture
                                              > is in my folder or the direct link is
                                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast/photos/recent/740537477/view>
                                              >
                                              > Rupert
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              >
                                              > yvt
                                              >
                                              > Rupert Wenig
                                              > Camrose, Alberta, Canada.
                                              >
                                              > email: rwenig2@...
                                              >
                                              > http://users.xplornet.com/~rwenig/Home/
                                              >
                                            • StoneTool
                                              Nick: Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a pump jack on
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Nov 24, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Nick:
                                                Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                                                pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                                                pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                                                patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                                                conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back to
                                                mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of power
                                                loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load, and
                                                you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                                                an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                                                efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                                                water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                                                pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                                                equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                                                like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out there,
                                                and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                                                way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                                                start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                                                out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                                                right.
                                                The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                                                not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                                                effective, cheap, and reliable.


                                                Howard

                                                On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                > The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part of
                                                > the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                                                > You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter out
                                                > as needed in drinker tubs...
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> **
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                                                >> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                                                >> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                                                >> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                                                >> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                                                >> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                                                >> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                                                >> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                                                >> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                                                >> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                                                >> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                                                >> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                                                >> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                                                >> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                                                >> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                                                >> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                                                >> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                                                >> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                                                >> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                                                >> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                                                >> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                                                >>
                                                >> Howard
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                                                >>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                                                >>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most were
                                                >>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                                                >>> 1/2-2 HP.
                                                >>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
                                                >>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                                                >>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the trailer
                                                >>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                                                >>>
                                                >>> Rupert
                                                >>>
                                                >>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                >>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                                                >>>> windmills.
                                                >>>>
                                                >>>> Nick A
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • Nick Andrews
                                                Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is used most of the
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Nov 24, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an
                                                  autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is used
                                                  most of the time when converting from a windmill. But if the gearbox goes
                                                  out it is likely cheaper to convert than replace it. Seen both steel and
                                                  fiberglass sucker rods. Ranchers are resourceful people. Well, the
                                                  successful ones are...

                                                  Nick A
                                                  On Nov 24, 2012 9:05 AM, "StoneTool" <owly@...> wrote:

                                                  > **
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Nick:
                                                  > Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                                                  > pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                                                  > pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                                                  > patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                                                  > conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back to
                                                  > mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of power
                                                  > loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load, and
                                                  > you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                                                  > an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                                                  > efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                                                  > water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                                                  > pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                                                  > equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                                                  > like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out there,
                                                  > and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                                                  > way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                                                  > start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                                                  > out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                                                  > right.
                                                  > The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                                                  > not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                                                  > effective, cheap, and reliable.
                                                  >
                                                  > Howard
                                                  >
                                                  > On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                  > > The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part of
                                                  > > the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                                                  > > You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter out
                                                  > > as needed in drinker tubs...
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >> **
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                                                  > >> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                                                  > >> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                                                  > >> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                                                  > >> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                                                  > >> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                                                  > >> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                                                  > >> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                                                  > >> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                                                  > >> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                                                  > >> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                                                  > >> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                                                  > >> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                                                  > >> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                                                  > >> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                                                  > >> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                                                  > >> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                                                  > >> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                                                  > >> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                                                  > >> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                                                  > >> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Howard
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                                                  > >>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                                                  > >>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most
                                                  > were
                                                  > >>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                                                  > >>> 1/2-2 HP.
                                                  > >>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
                                                  > >>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                                                  > >>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the
                                                  > trailer
                                                  > >>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> Rupert
                                                  > >>>
                                                  > >>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                  > >>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                                                  > >>>> windmills.
                                                  > >>>>
                                                  > >>>> Nick A
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • StoneTool
                                                  Nick: I don t honestly see how a submersible pump makes a better autonomous system when there is not grid power than a cylinder pump........... As I
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Nov 24, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Nick:
                                                    I don't honestly see how a submersible pump makes a better
                                                    "autonomous system" when there is not grid power than a cylinder
                                                    pump........... As I mentioned, I was using auto start Kohler engine
                                                    systems that ran on propane and started with a float 35 years ago.
                                                    Extremely reliable, they start and stop, on their own and rarely have
                                                    any problems.

                                                    The best sucker rods were spruce....... it floats........... and
                                                    that is an advantage.

                                                    Howard

                                                    On 11/24/2012 03:48 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                    > Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an
                                                    > autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is used
                                                    > most of the time when converting from a windmill. But if the gearbox goes
                                                    > out it is likely cheaper to convert than replace it. Seen both steel and
                                                    > fiberglass sucker rods. Ranchers are resourceful people. Well, the
                                                    > successful ones are...
                                                    >
                                                    > Nick A
                                                    > On Nov 24, 2012 9:05 AM, "StoneTool"<owly@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >> **
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Nick:
                                                    >> Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                                                    >> pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                                                    >> pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                                                    >> patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                                                    >> conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back to
                                                    >> mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of power
                                                    >> loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load, and
                                                    >> you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                                                    >> an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                                                    >> efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                                                    >> water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                                                    >> pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                                                    >> equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                                                    >> like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out there,
                                                    >> and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                                                    >> way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                                                    >> start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                                                    >> out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                                                    >> right.
                                                    >> The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                                                    >> not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                                                    >> effective, cheap, and reliable.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Howard
                                                    >>
                                                    >> On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                    >>> The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part of
                                                    >>> the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                                                    >>> You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter out
                                                    >>> as needed in drinker tubs...
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>> **
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >>>> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                                                    >>>> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                                                    >>>> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                                                    >>>> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                                                    >>>> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                                                    >>>> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                                                    >>>> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                                                    >>>> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                                                    >>>> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                                                    >>>> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                                                    >>>> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                                                    >>>> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                                                    >>>> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                                                    >>>> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                                                    >>>> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                                                    >>>> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                                                    >>>> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                                                    >>>> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                                                    >>>> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                                                    >>>> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                                                    >>>> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >>>> Howard
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >>>> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                                                    >>>>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                                                    >>>>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most
                                                    >> were
                                                    >>>>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                                                    >>>>> 1/2-2 HP.
                                                    >>>>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together by
                                                    >>>>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                                                    >>>>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the
                                                    >> trailer
                                                    >>>>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                                                    >>>>>
                                                    >>>>> Rupert
                                                    >>>>>
                                                    >>>>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                    >>>>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                                                    >>>>>> windmills.
                                                    >>>>>>
                                                    >>>>>> Nick A
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                                                    > this list does not accept attachments.
                                                    >
                                                    > Files area and list services are at:
                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                                    >
                                                    > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                                                    > check out these two affiliated sites:
                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                                                    >
                                                    > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                                    > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                                    >
                                                    > List Owner:
                                                    > owly@...
                                                    >
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • Nick Andrews
                                                    Solar power panels and sub pumps where it s not too deep is about as simple as it gets. I missed the auto-start Kohler part, but that sounds like a good
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Nov 25, 2012
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Solar power panels and sub pumps where it's not too deep is about as simple
                                                      as it gets. I missed the auto-start Kohler part, but that sounds like a
                                                      good system also where you can install a pump jack system. Only problem is
                                                      the need to transport the unit and then fuel out there. But that is
                                                      manageable in many areas that are not too remote. I think some of the
                                                      suckers we found were redwood because they don't rot.


                                                      On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, StoneTool <owly@...> wrote:

                                                      > **
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Nick:
                                                      > I don't honestly see how a submersible pump makes a better
                                                      > "autonomous system" when there is not grid power than a cylinder
                                                      > pump........... As I mentioned, I was using auto start Kohler engine
                                                      > systems that ran on propane and started with a float 35 years ago.
                                                      > Extremely reliable, they start and stop, on their own and rarely have
                                                      > any problems.
                                                      >
                                                      > The best sucker rods were spruce....... it floats........... and
                                                      > that is an advantage.
                                                      >
                                                      > Howard
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > On 11/24/2012 03:48 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                      > > Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an
                                                      > > autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is
                                                      > used
                                                      > > most of the time when converting from a windmill. But if the gearbox goes
                                                      > > out it is likely cheaper to convert than replace it. Seen both steel and
                                                      > > fiberglass sucker rods. Ranchers are resourceful people. Well, the
                                                      > > successful ones are...
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Nick A
                                                      > > On Nov 24, 2012 9:05 AM, "StoneTool"<owly@...> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >> **
                                                      >
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Nick:
                                                      > >> Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                                                      > >> pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                                                      > >> pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                                                      > >> patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                                                      > >> conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back to
                                                      > >> mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of power
                                                      > >> loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load, and
                                                      > >> you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                                                      > >> an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                                                      > >> efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                                                      > >> water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                                                      > >> pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                                                      > >> equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                                                      > >> like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out there,
                                                      > >> and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                                                      > >> way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                                                      > >> start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                                                      > >> out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                                                      > >> right.
                                                      > >> The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                                                      > >> not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                                                      > >> effective, cheap, and reliable.
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> Howard
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >> On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                      > >>> The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part
                                                      > of
                                                      > >>> the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                                                      > >>> You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter
                                                      > out
                                                      > >>> as needed in drinker tubs...
                                                      > >>>
                                                      > >>>
                                                      > >>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                                                      > >>>
                                                      > >>>> **
                                                      > >>>>
                                                      > >>>>
                                                      > >>>> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                                                      > >>>> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                                                      > >>>> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                                                      > >>>> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                                                      > >>>> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                                                      > >>>> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                                                      > >>>> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                                                      > >>>> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                                                      > >>>> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                                                      > >>>> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                                                      > >>>> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                                                      > >>>> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                                                      > >>>> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                                                      > >>>> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                                                      > >>>> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                                                      > >>>> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                                                      > >>>> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                                                      > >>>> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                                                      > >>>> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                                                      > >>>> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                                                      > >>>> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                                                      > >>>>
                                                      > >>>> Howard
                                                      > >>>>
                                                      > >>>>
                                                      > >>>> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                                                      > >>>>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                                                      > >>>>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most
                                                      > >> were
                                                      > >>>>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                                                      > >>>>> 1/2-2 HP.
                                                      > >>>>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together
                                                      > by
                                                      > >>>>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                                                      > >>>>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the
                                                      > >> trailer
                                                      > >>>>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                                                      > >>>>>
                                                      > >>>>> Rupert
                                                      > >>>>>
                                                      > >>>>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                      > >>>>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                                                      > >>>>>> windmills.
                                                      > >>>>>>
                                                      > >>>>>> Nick A
                                                      > >>>>
                                                      > >>>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >
                                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                                                      > > this list does not accept attachments.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Files area and list services are at:
                                                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                                      > >
                                                      > > For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                                                      > > check out these two affiliated sites:
                                                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                                      > > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                                      > >
                                                      > > List Owner:
                                                      > > owly@...
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >



                                                      --
                                                      Nick A

                                                      "You know what I wish? I wish that all the scum of the world had but a
                                                      single throat, and I had my hands about it..." Rorschach, 1975

                                                      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
                                                      safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical
                                                      Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

                                                      "Suburbia is where the developer bulldozes out the trees, then names the
                                                      streets after them." Bill Vaughan

                                                      "The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."
                                                      Plato


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Nick Andrews
                                                      I guess we should just be glad we have options these days! Nick A ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Nov 25, 2012
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        I guess we should just be glad we have options these days!

                                                        Nick A
                                                        On Nov 25, 2012 6:40 PM, "StoneTool" <owly@...> wrote:

                                                        > **
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Nick:
                                                        > I'm all for solar panels......... I do however believe that using a
                                                        > counterbalanced grasshopper type pump run from a DC motor you will pump
                                                        > more water than you will with a submersible due the higher
                                                        > efficiency.......... You can't beat the simplicity of dropping a pump
                                                        > down the well on the end of a piece of flexible plastic pipe though.
                                                        > It's quick, clean and simple. They do have limitations on depth. If
                                                        > I'm not mistaken at one time you had to put boosters inline if you went
                                                        > beyond a certain depth. I've long been an advocate for solar pumps
                                                        > rather than remote generator setups. The up front cost is higher, but
                                                        > the operating and maintenance cost is much lower. It doesn't take long
                                                        > to break even.
                                                        >
                                                        > Howard
                                                        >
                                                        > On 11/25/2012 04:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                        > > Solar power panels and sub pumps where it's not too deep is about as
                                                        > simple
                                                        > > as it gets. I missed the auto-start Kohler part, but that sounds like a
                                                        > > good system also where you can install a pump jack system. Only problem
                                                        > is
                                                        > > the need to transport the unit and then fuel out there. But that is
                                                        > > manageable in many areas that are not too remote. I think some of the
                                                        > > suckers we found were redwood because they don't rot.
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        > > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > >> **
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >> Nick:
                                                        > >> I don't honestly see how a submersible pump makes a better
                                                        > >> "autonomous system" when there is not grid power than a cylinder
                                                        > >> pump........... As I mentioned, I was using auto start Kohler engine
                                                        > >> systems that ran on propane and started with a float 35 years ago.
                                                        > >> Extremely reliable, they start and stop, on their own and rarely have
                                                        > >> any problems.
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >> The best sucker rods were spruce....... it floats........... and
                                                        > >> that is an advantage.
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >> Howard
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >> On 11/24/2012 03:48 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                        > >>> Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an
                                                        > >>> autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is
                                                        > >> used
                                                        > >>> most of the time when converting from a windmill. But if the gearbox
                                                        > goes
                                                        > >>> out it is likely cheaper to convert than replace it. Seen both steel
                                                        > and
                                                        > >>> fiberglass sucker rods. Ranchers are resourceful people. Well, the
                                                        > >>> successful ones are...
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>> Nick A
                                                        > >>> On Nov 24, 2012 9:05 AM, "StoneTool"<owly@...> wrote:
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>> **
                                                        > >>>>
                                                        > >>>> Nick:
                                                        > >>>> Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                                                        > >>>> pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                                                        > >>>> pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                                                        > >>>> patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                                                        > >>>> conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back
                                                        > to
                                                        > >>>> mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of
                                                        > power
                                                        > >>>> loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load,
                                                        > and
                                                        > >>>> you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                                                        > >>>> an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                                                        > >>>> efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                                                        > >>>> water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                                                        > >>>> pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                                                        > >>>> equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                                                        > >>>> like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out
                                                        > there,
                                                        > >>>> and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                                                        > >>>> way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                                                        > >>>> start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                                                        > >>>> out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                                                        > >>>> right.
                                                        > >>>> The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                                                        > >>>> not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                                                        > >>>> effective, cheap, and reliable.
                                                        > >>>>
                                                        > >>>> Howard
                                                        > >>>>
                                                        > >>>> On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                        > >>>>> The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part
                                                        > >> of
                                                        > >>>>> the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost
                                                        > non-existent.
                                                        > >>>>> You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter
                                                        > >> out
                                                        > >>>>> as needed in drinker tubs...
                                                        > >>>>>
                                                        > >>>>>
                                                        > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                                                        > >>>>>
                                                        > >>>>>> **
                                                        > >>>>>>
                                                        > >>>>>>
                                                        > >>>>>> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                                                        > >>>>>> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                                                        > >>>>>> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                                                        > >>>>>> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                                                        > >>>>>> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                                                        > >>>>>> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                                                        > >>>>>> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                                                        > >>>>>> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                                                        > >>>>>> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                                                        > >>>>>> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                                                        > >>>>>> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod
                                                        > inside
                                                        > >>>>>> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers
                                                        > which
                                                        > >>>>>> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever
                                                        > either
                                                        > >>>>>> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new
                                                        > one
                                                        > >>>>>> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                                                        > >>>>>> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                                                        > >>>>>> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for
                                                        > auto
                                                        > >>>>>> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter
                                                        > generator
                                                        > >>>>>> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                                                        > >>>>>> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                                                        > >>>>>> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                                                        > >>>>>>
                                                        > >>>>>> Howard
                                                        > >>>>>>
                                                        > >>>>>>
                                                        > >>>>>> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                                                        > >>>>>>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before
                                                        > the
                                                        > >>>>>>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most
                                                        > >>>> were
                                                        > >>>>>>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type
                                                        > of 1
                                                        > >>>>>>> 1/2-2 HP.
                                                        > >>>>>>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put
                                                        > together
                                                        > >> by
                                                        > >>>>>>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps,
                                                        > pump
                                                        > >>>>>>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the
                                                        > >>>> trailer
                                                        > >>>>>>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                                                        > >>>>>>>
                                                        > >>>>>>> Rupert
                                                        > >>>>>>>
                                                        > >>>>>>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                        > >>>>>>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west
                                                        > for
                                                        > >>>>>>>> windmills.
                                                        > >>>>>>>>
                                                        > >>>>>>>> Nick A
                                                        > >>>>
                                                        > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>> ------------------------------------
                                                        > >>> For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                                                        > >>> this list does not accept attachments.
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>> Files area and list services are at:
                                                        > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>> For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                                                        > >>> check out these two affiliated sites:
                                                        > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                                        > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>> Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                                        > >>> http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>> List Owner:
                                                        > >>> owly@...
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>>
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >>
                                                        > >
                                                        > >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >


                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • StoneTool
                                                        Nick: I m all for solar panels......... I do however believe that using a counterbalanced grasshopper type pump run from a DC motor you will pump more water
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Nov 25, 2012
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Nick:
                                                          I'm all for solar panels......... I do however believe that using a
                                                          counterbalanced grasshopper type pump run from a DC motor you will pump
                                                          more water than you will with a submersible due the higher
                                                          efficiency.......... You can't beat the simplicity of dropping a pump
                                                          down the well on the end of a piece of flexible plastic pipe though.
                                                          It's quick, clean and simple. They do have limitations on depth. If
                                                          I'm not mistaken at one time you had to put boosters inline if you went
                                                          beyond a certain depth. I've long been an advocate for solar pumps
                                                          rather than remote generator setups. The up front cost is higher, but
                                                          the operating and maintenance cost is much lower. It doesn't take long
                                                          to break even.


                                                          Howard

                                                          On 11/25/2012 04:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                          > Solar power panels and sub pumps where it's not too deep is about as simple
                                                          > as it gets. I missed the auto-start Kohler part, but that sounds like a
                                                          > good system also where you can install a pump jack system. Only problem is
                                                          > the need to transport the unit and then fuel out there. But that is
                                                          > manageable in many areas that are not too remote. I think some of the
                                                          > suckers we found were redwood because they don't rot.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 10:12 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          >> **
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Nick:
                                                          >> I don't honestly see how a submersible pump makes a better
                                                          >> "autonomous system" when there is not grid power than a cylinder
                                                          >> pump........... As I mentioned, I was using auto start Kohler engine
                                                          >> systems that ran on propane and started with a float 35 years ago.
                                                          >> Extremely reliable, they start and stop, on their own and rarely have
                                                          >> any problems.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> The best sucker rods were spruce....... it floats........... and
                                                          >> that is an advantage.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Howard
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >> On 11/24/2012 03:48 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                          >>> Sure, but many of these ranches are so big or sites so remote that an
                                                          >>> autonomous system is needed. If water is not too deep, submersible is
                                                          >> used
                                                          >>> most of the time when converting from a windmill. But if the gearbox goes
                                                          >>> out it is likely cheaper to convert than replace it. Seen both steel and
                                                          >>> fiberglass sucker rods. Ranchers are resourceful people. Well, the
                                                          >>> successful ones are...
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>> Nick A
                                                          >>> On Nov 24, 2012 9:05 AM, "StoneTool"<owly@...> wrote:
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>> **
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> Nick:
                                                          >>>> Cylinder pumps are vastly more energy efficient than submersible
                                                          >>>> pumps. They can be run from ANY energy source, not just wind. With a
                                                          >>>> pump jack on the surface or a grasshopper like they use in the oil
                                                          >>>> patch, a tiny amount of horsepower can pump water. Eliminate the
                                                          >>>> conversion from mechanical energy (engine), to electricity, and back to
                                                          >>>> mechanical energy (submersible pump) which entails a great deal of power
                                                          >>>> loss and an engine usually running 3600 RPM regardless of the load, and
                                                          >>>> you save a significant amount of fuel. Solar panels of course would be
                                                          >>>> an option in NM, and a small DC motor on the surface would be far more
                                                          >>>> efficient than a DC submersible pump. The equation is gallons of
                                                          >>>> water per dollar in fuel, and the best rate of return is the cylinder
                                                          >>>> pump where water is being pumped for livestock. The best surface
                                                          >>>> equipment is the grasshopper with a proper counterweight....... just
                                                          >>>> like oil wells use. There are many other "farmer" pump jacks out there,
                                                          >>>> and all they require is a small gas engine. It's a simple and cheap
                                                          >>>> way to pump stock water. Put a few quarts of gas in the tank and
                                                          >>>> start the engine....... go do something else. It pumps until it runs
                                                          >>>> out of gas, and presumably the stock tank is full if you've figured it
                                                          >>>> right.
                                                          >>>> The general attitude is that this technology is archaic.... It's
                                                          >>>> not. It's fallen by the wayside in recent times, but still very
                                                          >>>> effective, cheap, and reliable.
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> Howard
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>> On 11/23/2012 11:47 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                          >>>>> The big problem here in NM for cattle is that during the hottest part
                                                          >> of
                                                          >>>>> the summer when you most need the water, winds are almost non-existent.
                                                          >>>>> You need a big storage tank or tanks to fill when you can, then meter
                                                          >> out
                                                          >>>>> as needed in drinker tubs...
                                                          >>>>>
                                                          >>>>>
                                                          >>>>> On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:09 PM, StoneTool<owly@...> wrote:
                                                          >>>>>
                                                          >>>>>> **
                                                          >>>>>>
                                                          >>>>>>
                                                          >>>>>> These pump jacks are still in use.....but dying out unfortunately.
                                                          >>>>>> They are vastly more energy efficient than a submersible pump. For
                                                          >>>>>> stock watering a pump jack can have a very small engine adn use very
                                                          >>>>>> little gas. Drop a submersible in, and you have to have a generator
                                                          >>>>>> screaming away at 3600 RPM to run a pump that draws just a few
                                                          >>>>>> amps................. A silly way to go. There is a reason the oil
                                                          >>>>>> fields use exactly the same kind of pump. No pumping system is more
                                                          >>>>>> efficient than a grasshopper. Pump jacks are not far behind and beat
                                                          >>>>>> a submersible hands down for efficiency. This is a technology that
                                                          >>>>>> should NOT be lost. Cylinder pumps take some work to pull.........
                                                          >>>>>> Each 10' section of pipe must be unscrewed, and the sucker rod inside
                                                          >>>>>> must be unscrewed also. They also have valves and pump leathers which
                                                          >>>>>> do not last forever.........but submersibles don't last forever either
                                                          >>>>>> and cannot be serviced normally. It's "throw it away and put a new one
                                                          >>>>>> in". I've worked on these many times, over the years. Totally
                                                          >>>>>> serviceable, and very reliable! You can run them on wind, solar, gas
                                                          >>>>>> or diesel engine, or utility power. They can easily be set up for auto
                                                          >>>>>> start. I've worked with small Kohler engines with a starter generator
                                                          >>>>>> setup, running on propane that started on a float system..........
                                                          >>>>>> simple and reliable...........and cheap! They would easily start in
                                                          >>>>>> sub zero temps without a person in attendance.
                                                          >>>>>>
                                                          >>>>>> Howard
                                                          >>>>>>
                                                          >>>>>>
                                                          >>>>>> On 11/23/2012 09:29 PM, Rupert wrote:
                                                          >>>>>>> Yes. They are the same. Every rural home used to have one before the
                                                          >>>>>>> submersible pumps came out. Some were powered by windmills but most
                                                          >>>> were
                                                          >>>>>>> driven by small gas engines many of which were the flywheel type of 1
                                                          >>>>>>> 1/2-2 HP.
                                                          >>>>>>> These plungers are destined for a display trailer being put together
                                                          >> by
                                                          >>>>>>> my son-in-law to display the different styles of working pumps, pump
                                                          >>>>>>> jacks and engines that were used for pumping water. He hauls the
                                                          >>>> trailer
                                                          >>>>>>> around the country to the shows the museums put on every year.
                                                          >>>>>>>
                                                          >>>>>>> Rupert
                                                          >>>>>>>
                                                          >>>>>>> On 11/23/2012 9:07 PM, Nick Andrews wrote:
                                                          >>>>>>>> Nice work! They look similar to the ones we use here in the west for
                                                          >>>>>>>> windmills.
                                                          >>>>>>>>
                                                          >>>>>>>> Nick A
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>> ------------------------------------
                                                          >>> For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                                                          >>> this list does not accept attachments.
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>> Files area and list services are at:
                                                          >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>> For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                                                          >>> check out these two affiliated sites:
                                                          >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                                                          >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>> Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                                                          >>> http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>> List Owner:
                                                          >>> owly@...
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>
                                                          >>
                                                          >
                                                          >
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