Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [hobbicast] Natural Gas burner designs?

Expand Messages
  • Rupert Wenig
    Hello Jack, I think most of use propane because we pour in locations where NG is not handy. Another reason is the pressure of NG isn t high enough to use in a
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
      Hello Jack,
      I think most of use propane because we pour in locations where NG is
      not handy. Another reason is the pressure of NG isn't high enough to use
      in a naturally aspirated burner so a fan/blower type burner is
      necessary. I use a naturally aspirated burner so my option needs the
      pressure a propane bottle provides.
      You mentioned you have built the Gingery design burner. It appears to
      me that it is very similar to many of the burners I have seen in gas
      kilns and commercial foundry furnaces who use natural gas. By this I
      mean the gingery design should be an ok design.

      Rupert

      tigertwous wrote:
      >
      > Well I've look at just about every foundry site, professional and
      > hobby and have yet to come up with any really good burner
      > designs to be used with natural gas and forced air provided by a
      > blower fan.
      >
      > I keep comming up with the designs for propane and other fuels
      > but not NG.
      >
      > Can any one provide me with a link or some tips and hints. My
      > furnace is based on the Gingery design for NG. This furnace will
      > handle a #40 crucible and I've already got the blower fan which
      > will move over 400 CFM of air.
      >
      > I've already constructed the type of burner Gingery suggested but
      > was wondering if there were any other designs to consider. I
      > hope to be pouring my refractory with in the month and need to
      > finish this burner soon.
      >
      > I have all of the tools and machinery I need to manufacture any
      > part so that's not a problem.
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > Jack Fisher
      >
      --
      yvt

      Rupert Wenig
      Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

      mailto://rwenig@...

      http://www.cable-lynx.net/~rwenig/index.html
    • John Lewis
      Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 14:03:27 -0000 From: tigertwous Subject: Natural Gas burner designs? ... The only NG/Air setup i ve seen
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
        Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 14:03:27 -0000
        From: "tigertwous" <jfisher@...>
        Subject: Natural Gas burner designs?

        >Well I've look at just about every foundry site, professional and
        >hobby and have yet to come up with any really good burner
        >designs to be used with natural gas and forced air provided by a
        >blower fan. <snip>

        The only NG/Air setup i've seen recently was at school where it's
        used to keep the glass-blower's glass furnaces going. I'd trying
        looking for designs for glass blowing furnances (there are two kinds:
        the one which keeps the glass semi-liquid, which is what you need,
        and the one used to temper the glass after forming. The tempering
        ovens are always (?) electric, and maintain something like 900 degrees
        F.

        Hope this helps.

        JohnL
      • Chad Craig
        This is a snip from Ron Reil s website... IMHO he is the authority when it come to burners and thier design. He explains some of the pros and cons of NG vs
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 2, 2002
          This is a snip from Ron Reil's website... IMHO he is the authority when it come to burners and thier design. He explains some of the pros and cons of NG vs LP. More info can be found at http://www.reil1.net/whyusegas.shtml

          I would like to make a few comparisons between propane and natural gas fired forges. I admit that these comparisons do not hold for all forges of either type, but some generalities can be made. Because natural gas is obtainable for most people only at very low pressures, 4-6 ounces, naturally aspirated ventouri burners, such as found on my pages, are not an option. Natural gas burners almost always need blowers. I am fortunate because I have access to a 10 psi tap off my natural gas line, and the work of setting it up for use is all borne by the gas company. I only have to provide a regulator for the gas line. Most people are not so fortunate. Blown natural gas forges tend to be very "blowy" and have a very pronounced "dragon's breath." This blast of hot gases coming out the front of the forge can be very uncomfortable to work around. Some smiths attempt a fix by mounting an additional blower below the forge opening pointing straight up to blow the dragon's breath upwards and away from the smith. Also, many natural gas forges are poorly tuned and provide an oxygen rich atmosphere in the chamber causing excessive oxidation scale to form on the iron. This however is not a fault of the forge but of the smith using it. Due to the blower they also tend to be very noisy. Also, but not always, they tend to run at lower temperatures than a propane forge, although forge welding is well within the range of a natural gas forge. I have a friend who does all his Damascus welding in his natural gas forge, one I sold him a number of years ago. Lastly, and on the positive side, natural gas is a less expensive fuel to fire your forge with, and you do not need to go refill tanks periodically, but its also not portable.

          Propane forges tend to run hotter than natural gas forges, due to the difference in energy content per cubic foot of the respective fuels. Propane forges fitted with naturally aspirated burners are very portable because no electric blowers are required. They have a lower total gas volume entering the forge chamber, so the dragon's breath is reduced or eliminated almost all together. If adjusted properly, and equipped with a choke as shown on my Design page, propane forges can run with atmospheres that almost totally eliminate scaling of the iron, but well regulated natural gas forges can perform equally as well. I consider both propane and natural gas to be very good fuels for gas forges, but they must be selected with a full knowledge of the advantages and disadvantages associated with each fuel, otherwise you may be in for a disappointment.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Jerry Kimberlin <kimberln@...>
          Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 17:30:53 -0700
          To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Natural Gas burner designs?


          > Keith Green wrote:
          >
          > > I think the reason there aren't a lot of NG burner designs is the
          > > problem of supply. The pressure and volume of gas supplied to the average
          > > home isn't enough to supply a foundry adequately. I'm not sure, but I think
          > > the pressure at the inlet to your home is on the order of 3psi or so. If you
          > > have an adequate supply, the burners should be identical to propane but for
          > > a slightly larger orifice.
          >
          > I'm sure you are correct Keith. Around here I am told the street
          > pipe pressure is high. But by the time it gets through the limit
          > valve and the gas meter it is only 10" H2O. You just can't pump
          > enough out of the line to get enough gas. The industrial places
          > supplied off the same piping system seem to get enough for most
          > things (around 90 psia, I'm told), but the gas company
          > won't/can't supply a residence with higher pressure.
          >
          > In theory, the NG burner oriface should have about 3 times the
          > area as a propane burner, since NG is mostly methane with one
          > carbon atom while propane has 3 carbon atoms. NG is not
          > particularly pure and is sold based on BTU value too, so you may
          > need a larger oriface than calculated for the same BTU input as a
          > propane tank will supply. Remember if you are calculating
          > between one and the other, it is the oriface area not the
          > diameter that is important.
          >
          > JerryK

          --
          __________________________________________________________
          Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
          http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
        • john grant
          I have had no problems with NG. The problems others have may be self generated. You just put a small blower on your furnace and bring the gas line up to the
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 2, 2002
            I have had no problems with NG. The problems others have may be self generated.
            You just put a small blower on your furnace and bring the gas line up to the
            intake of the blower.
            The "orifice" is whatever the size of your gas line is.

            Jerry Kimberlin wrote:

            > Keith Green wrote:
            >
            > > I think the reason there aren't a lot of NG burner designs is the
            > > problem of supply. The pressure and volume of gas supplied to the average
            > > home isn't enough to supply a foundry adequately. I'm not sure, but I think
            > > the pressure at the inlet to your home is on the order of 3psi or so. If you
            > > have an adequate supply, the burners should be identical to propane but for
            > > a slightly larger orifice.
            >
            > I'm sure you are correct Keith. Around here I am told the street
            > pipe pressure is high. But by the time it gets through the limit
            > valve and the gas meter it is only 10" H2O. You just can't pump
            > enough out of the line to get enough gas. The industrial places
            > supplied off the same piping system seem to get enough for most
            > things (around 90 psia, I'm told), but the gas company
            > won't/can't supply a residence with higher pressure.
            >
            > In theory, the NG burner oriface should have about 3 times the
            > area as a propane burner, since NG is mostly methane with one
            > carbon atom while propane has 3 carbon atoms. NG is not
            > particularly pure and is sold based on BTU value too, so you may
            > need a larger oriface than calculated for the same BTU input as a
            > propane tank will supply. Remember if you are calculating
            > between one and the other, it is the oriface area not the
            > diameter that is important.
            >
            > JerryK
            >
            > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
            > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
            >
            > Files area and list services are at:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > hobbicast-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • mikemaddefordca
            Hello Jack. I m searching for a Natural Gas blown burner design. Did you ever find anything ? Thanks Mike
            Message 5 of 11 , May 13, 2005
              Hello Jack. I'm searching for a Natural Gas blown burner design. Did
              you ever find anything ?

              Thanks

              Mike
            • Dan Brewer
              What do you want to use the burner in? Depending on the size of your burner chamber and the size of your gas supply you can get good results with a small
              Message 6 of 11 , May 13, 2005
                What do you want to use the burner in? Depending on the size of your burner
                chamber and the size of your gas supply you can get good results with a
                small blower ( think hair dryer) and just some tubing. The exhaust hole on
                the furnace/forge needs to be at least twice the size of the inlet. A
                naturally aspirated burner is much easer to play with and the furnace /
                forge is portable.

                Dan in Auburn

                -----Original Message-----
                From: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hobbicast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of mikemaddefordca
                Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 3:29 PM
                To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Natural Gas burner designs?

                Hello Jack. I'm searching for a Natural Gas blown burner design. Did
                you ever find anything ?

                Thanks

                Mike




                For discussion of Metal Casting and related issues
                this list does not accept attachments.

                Files area and list services are at:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast

                For additional files and photos and off topic discussions
                check out these two affiliated sites:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sandcrabs
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hobbicast1

                Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                http://budgetcastingsupply.com/

                List Owner:
                owly@...


                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • mikemaddefordca
                OOps I guess I didn t explain myself. :( It s just a small forge made out of a 30 lb propane tank. 12 OD, 8 ID and about 16 long. I m going to try to use
                Message 7 of 11 , May 13, 2005
                  OOps I guess I didn't explain myself. :( It's just a small forge
                  made out of a 30 lb propane tank. 12" OD, 8" ID and about 16" long.
                  I'm going to try to use Perlite and Furnace Cement. And I have some
                  2" fire brick I can use to close then ends up for now to try it out.

                  I need to heat hot rolled bars 1/2" or smaller, enough to roll them
                  into a 2" diameter.

                  Since I posted here tonight I did a little experiment with a piece of
                  1 1/2" pipe about 10' long. I drilled 3/16" hole in the side near one
                  end and then welded a piece of 1/2" gas pipe over the hole. Put an
                  air hose in the same end and tied the 1/2" gas pipe in. Used the
                  torch to light it up. The flame was floating at first and when I
                  turned the reg. on the compressor down to 40 lbs the flame sat on the
                  end of the tube. I think at that air pressure I was getting something
                  like 12 cfm at best.

                  I'm wondering how long the tube needs to be in order to mix the fuel
                  and air properly.

                  Help !!!!

                  Thanks for the reply.

                  Mike
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.