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Natural Gas burner designs?

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  • tigertwous
    Well I ve look at just about every foundry site, professional and hobby and have yet to come up with any really good burner designs to be used with natural gas
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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      Well I've look at just about every foundry site, professional and
      hobby and have yet to come up with any really good burner
      designs to be used with natural gas and forced air provided by a
      blower fan.

      I keep comming up with the designs for propane and other fuels
      but not NG.

      Can any one provide me with a link or some tips and hints. My
      furnace is based on the Gingery design for NG. This furnace will
      handle a #40 crucible and I've already got the blower fan which
      will move over 400 CFM of air.

      I've already constructed the type of burner Gingery suggested but
      was wondering if there were any other designs to consider. I
      hope to be pouring my refractory with in the month and need to
      finish this burner soon.

      I have all of the tools and machinery I need to manufacture any
      part so that's not a problem.

      Thanks

      Jack Fisher
    • Ray Brandes
      Jack, Have you consulted your gas provider? I am using propane and my provider was most helpful. Perhaps your provider can do the same for you and your NG
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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        Jack,
        Have you consulted your gas provider? I am using propane and my provider was
        most helpful. Perhaps your provider can do the same for you and your NG
        questions.
        -Ray

        tigertwous wrote:

        > Well I've look at just about every foundry site, professional and
        > hobby and have yet to come up with any really good burner
        > designs to be used with natural gas and forced air provided by a
        > blower fan.
        >
        > I keep comming up with the designs for propane and other fuels
        > but not NG.
        >
        > Can any one provide me with a link or some tips and hints. My
        > furnace is based on the Gingery design for NG. This furnace will
        > handle a #40 crucible and I've already got the blower fan which
        > will move over 400 CFM of air.
        >
        > I've already constructed the type of burner Gingery suggested but
        > was wondering if there were any other designs to consider. I
        > hope to be pouring my refractory with in the month and need to
        > finish this burner soon.
        >
        > I have all of the tools and machinery I need to manufacture any
        > part so that's not a problem.
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Jack Fisher
        >
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      • Rupert Wenig
        Hello Jack, I think most of use propane because we pour in locations where NG is not handy. Another reason is the pressure of NG isn t high enough to use in a
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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          Hello Jack,
          I think most of use propane because we pour in locations where NG is
          not handy. Another reason is the pressure of NG isn't high enough to use
          in a naturally aspirated burner so a fan/blower type burner is
          necessary. I use a naturally aspirated burner so my option needs the
          pressure a propane bottle provides.
          You mentioned you have built the Gingery design burner. It appears to
          me that it is very similar to many of the burners I have seen in gas
          kilns and commercial foundry furnaces who use natural gas. By this I
          mean the gingery design should be an ok design.

          Rupert

          tigertwous wrote:
          >
          > Well I've look at just about every foundry site, professional and
          > hobby and have yet to come up with any really good burner
          > designs to be used with natural gas and forced air provided by a
          > blower fan.
          >
          > I keep comming up with the designs for propane and other fuels
          > but not NG.
          >
          > Can any one provide me with a link or some tips and hints. My
          > furnace is based on the Gingery design for NG. This furnace will
          > handle a #40 crucible and I've already got the blower fan which
          > will move over 400 CFM of air.
          >
          > I've already constructed the type of burner Gingery suggested but
          > was wondering if there were any other designs to consider. I
          > hope to be pouring my refractory with in the month and need to
          > finish this burner soon.
          >
          > I have all of the tools and machinery I need to manufacture any
          > part so that's not a problem.
          >
          > Thanks
          >
          > Jack Fisher
          >
          --
          yvt

          Rupert Wenig
          Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

          mailto://rwenig@...

          http://www.cable-lynx.net/~rwenig/index.html
        • Keith Green
          I believe this has been touched on before, though probably not in depth. I think the reason there aren t a lot of NG burner designs is the problem of supply.
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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            I believe this has been touched on before, though probably not in depth.
            I think the reason there aren't a lot of NG burner designs is the
            problem of supply. The pressure and volume of gas supplied to the average
            home isn't enough to supply a foundry adequately. I'm not sure, but I think
            the pressure at the inlet to your home is on the order of 3psi or so. If you
            have an adequate supply, the burners should be identical to propane but for
            a slightly larger orifice. This is the case with NG BBQ conversions. My NG
            oven came with alternate orifices to be installed for propane use.


            keith.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "tigertwous" <jfisher@...>
            To: <hobbicast@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:03 AM
            Subject: [hobbicast] Natural Gas burner designs?


            > Well I've look at just about every foundry site, professional and
            > hobby and have yet to come up with any really good burner
            > designs to be used with natural gas and forced air provided by a
            > blower fan.
            >
            > I keep comming up with the designs for propane and other fuels
            > but not NG.
            >
            > Can any one provide me with a link or some tips and hints. My
            > furnace is based on the Gingery design for NG. This furnace will
            > handle a #40 crucible and I've already got the blower fan which
            > will move over 400 CFM of air.
            >
            > I've already constructed the type of burner Gingery suggested but
            > was wondering if there were any other designs to consider. I
            > hope to be pouring my refractory with in the month and need to
            > finish this burner soon.
            >
            > I have all of the tools and machinery I need to manufacture any
            > part so that's not a problem.
            >
            > Thanks
            >
            > Jack Fisher
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
            > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
            >
            > Files area and list services are at:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > hobbicast-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Jerry Kimberlin
            ... I m sure you are correct Keith. Around here I am told the street pipe pressure is high. But by the time it gets through the limit valve and the gas meter
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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              Keith Green wrote:

              > I think the reason there aren't a lot of NG burner designs is the
              > problem of supply. The pressure and volume of gas supplied to the average
              > home isn't enough to supply a foundry adequately. I'm not sure, but I think
              > the pressure at the inlet to your home is on the order of 3psi or so. If you
              > have an adequate supply, the burners should be identical to propane but for
              > a slightly larger orifice.

              I'm sure you are correct Keith. Around here I am told the street
              pipe pressure is high. But by the time it gets through the limit
              valve and the gas meter it is only 10" H2O. You just can't pump
              enough out of the line to get enough gas. The industrial places
              supplied off the same piping system seem to get enough for most
              things (around 90 psia, I'm told), but the gas company
              won't/can't supply a residence with higher pressure.

              In theory, the NG burner oriface should have about 3 times the
              area as a propane burner, since NG is mostly methane with one
              carbon atom while propane has 3 carbon atoms. NG is not
              particularly pure and is sold based on BTU value too, so you may
              need a larger oriface than calculated for the same BTU input as a
              propane tank will supply. Remember if you are calculating
              between one and the other, it is the oriface area not the
              diameter that is important.

              JerryK
            • John Lewis
              Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 14:03:27 -0000 From: tigertwous Subject: Natural Gas burner designs? ... The only NG/Air setup i ve seen
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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                Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 14:03:27 -0000
                From: "tigertwous" <jfisher@...>
                Subject: Natural Gas burner designs?

                >Well I've look at just about every foundry site, professional and
                >hobby and have yet to come up with any really good burner
                >designs to be used with natural gas and forced air provided by a
                >blower fan. <snip>

                The only NG/Air setup i've seen recently was at school where it's
                used to keep the glass-blower's glass furnaces going. I'd trying
                looking for designs for glass blowing furnances (there are two kinds:
                the one which keeps the glass semi-liquid, which is what you need,
                and the one used to temper the glass after forming. The tempering
                ovens are always (?) electric, and maintain something like 900 degrees
                F.

                Hope this helps.

                JohnL
              • Chad Craig
                This is a snip from Ron Reil s website... IMHO he is the authority when it come to burners and thier design. He explains some of the pros and cons of NG vs
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 2, 2002
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                  This is a snip from Ron Reil's website... IMHO he is the authority when it come to burners and thier design. He explains some of the pros and cons of NG vs LP. More info can be found at http://www.reil1.net/whyusegas.shtml

                  I would like to make a few comparisons between propane and natural gas fired forges. I admit that these comparisons do not hold for all forges of either type, but some generalities can be made. Because natural gas is obtainable for most people only at very low pressures, 4-6 ounces, naturally aspirated ventouri burners, such as found on my pages, are not an option. Natural gas burners almost always need blowers. I am fortunate because I have access to a 10 psi tap off my natural gas line, and the work of setting it up for use is all borne by the gas company. I only have to provide a regulator for the gas line. Most people are not so fortunate. Blown natural gas forges tend to be very "blowy" and have a very pronounced "dragon's breath." This blast of hot gases coming out the front of the forge can be very uncomfortable to work around. Some smiths attempt a fix by mounting an additional blower below the forge opening pointing straight up to blow the dragon's breath upwards and away from the smith. Also, many natural gas forges are poorly tuned and provide an oxygen rich atmosphere in the chamber causing excessive oxidation scale to form on the iron. This however is not a fault of the forge but of the smith using it. Due to the blower they also tend to be very noisy. Also, but not always, they tend to run at lower temperatures than a propane forge, although forge welding is well within the range of a natural gas forge. I have a friend who does all his Damascus welding in his natural gas forge, one I sold him a number of years ago. Lastly, and on the positive side, natural gas is a less expensive fuel to fire your forge with, and you do not need to go refill tanks periodically, but its also not portable.

                  Propane forges tend to run hotter than natural gas forges, due to the difference in energy content per cubic foot of the respective fuels. Propane forges fitted with naturally aspirated burners are very portable because no electric blowers are required. They have a lower total gas volume entering the forge chamber, so the dragon's breath is reduced or eliminated almost all together. If adjusted properly, and equipped with a choke as shown on my Design page, propane forges can run with atmospheres that almost totally eliminate scaling of the iron, but well regulated natural gas forges can perform equally as well. I consider both propane and natural gas to be very good fuels for gas forges, but they must be selected with a full knowledge of the advantages and disadvantages associated with each fuel, otherwise you may be in for a disappointment.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Jerry Kimberlin <kimberln@...>
                  Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 17:30:53 -0700
                  To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Natural Gas burner designs?


                  > Keith Green wrote:
                  >
                  > > I think the reason there aren't a lot of NG burner designs is the
                  > > problem of supply. The pressure and volume of gas supplied to the average
                  > > home isn't enough to supply a foundry adequately. I'm not sure, but I think
                  > > the pressure at the inlet to your home is on the order of 3psi or so. If you
                  > > have an adequate supply, the burners should be identical to propane but for
                  > > a slightly larger orifice.
                  >
                  > I'm sure you are correct Keith. Around here I am told the street
                  > pipe pressure is high. But by the time it gets through the limit
                  > valve and the gas meter it is only 10" H2O. You just can't pump
                  > enough out of the line to get enough gas. The industrial places
                  > supplied off the same piping system seem to get enough for most
                  > things (around 90 psia, I'm told), but the gas company
                  > won't/can't supply a residence with higher pressure.
                  >
                  > In theory, the NG burner oriface should have about 3 times the
                  > area as a propane burner, since NG is mostly methane with one
                  > carbon atom while propane has 3 carbon atoms. NG is not
                  > particularly pure and is sold based on BTU value too, so you may
                  > need a larger oriface than calculated for the same BTU input as a
                  > propane tank will supply. Remember if you are calculating
                  > between one and the other, it is the oriface area not the
                  > diameter that is important.
                  >
                  > JerryK

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                • john grant
                  I have had no problems with NG. The problems others have may be self generated. You just put a small blower on your furnace and bring the gas line up to the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 2, 2002
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                    I have had no problems with NG. The problems others have may be self generated.
                    You just put a small blower on your furnace and bring the gas line up to the
                    intake of the blower.
                    The "orifice" is whatever the size of your gas line is.

                    Jerry Kimberlin wrote:

                    > Keith Green wrote:
                    >
                    > > I think the reason there aren't a lot of NG burner designs is the
                    > > problem of supply. The pressure and volume of gas supplied to the average
                    > > home isn't enough to supply a foundry adequately. I'm not sure, but I think
                    > > the pressure at the inlet to your home is on the order of 3psi or so. If you
                    > > have an adequate supply, the burners should be identical to propane but for
                    > > a slightly larger orifice.
                    >
                    > I'm sure you are correct Keith. Around here I am told the street
                    > pipe pressure is high. But by the time it gets through the limit
                    > valve and the gas meter it is only 10" H2O. You just can't pump
                    > enough out of the line to get enough gas. The industrial places
                    > supplied off the same piping system seem to get enough for most
                    > things (around 90 psia, I'm told), but the gas company
                    > won't/can't supply a residence with higher pressure.
                    >
                    > In theory, the NG burner oriface should have about 3 times the
                    > area as a propane burner, since NG is mostly methane with one
                    > carbon atom while propane has 3 carbon atoms. NG is not
                    > particularly pure and is sold based on BTU value too, so you may
                    > need a larger oriface than calculated for the same BTU input as a
                    > propane tank will supply. Remember if you are calculating
                    > between one and the other, it is the oriface area not the
                    > diameter that is important.
                    >
                    > JerryK
                    >
                    > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
                    > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
                    >
                    > Files area and list services are at:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hobbicast
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > hobbicast-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • mikemaddefordca
                    Hello Jack. I m searching for a Natural Gas blown burner design. Did you ever find anything ? Thanks Mike
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 13, 2005
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                      Hello Jack. I'm searching for a Natural Gas blown burner design. Did
                      you ever find anything ?

                      Thanks

                      Mike
                    • Dan Brewer
                      What do you want to use the burner in? Depending on the size of your burner chamber and the size of your gas supply you can get good results with a small
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 13, 2005
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                        What do you want to use the burner in? Depending on the size of your burner
                        chamber and the size of your gas supply you can get good results with a
                        small blower ( think hair dryer) and just some tubing. The exhaust hole on
                        the furnace/forge needs to be at least twice the size of the inlet. A
                        naturally aspirated burner is much easer to play with and the furnace /
                        forge is portable.

                        Dan in Auburn

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hobbicast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of mikemaddefordca
                        Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 3:29 PM
                        To: hobbicast@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [hobbicast] Re: Natural Gas burner designs?

                        Hello Jack. I'm searching for a Natural Gas blown burner design. Did
                        you ever find anything ?

                        Thanks

                        Mike




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                      • mikemaddefordca
                        OOps I guess I didn t explain myself. :( It s just a small forge made out of a 30 lb propane tank. 12 OD, 8 ID and about 16 long. I m going to try to use
                        Message 11 of 11 , May 13, 2005
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                          OOps I guess I didn't explain myself. :( It's just a small forge
                          made out of a 30 lb propane tank. 12" OD, 8" ID and about 16" long.
                          I'm going to try to use Perlite and Furnace Cement. And I have some
                          2" fire brick I can use to close then ends up for now to try it out.

                          I need to heat hot rolled bars 1/2" or smaller, enough to roll them
                          into a 2" diameter.

                          Since I posted here tonight I did a little experiment with a piece of
                          1 1/2" pipe about 10' long. I drilled 3/16" hole in the side near one
                          end and then welded a piece of 1/2" gas pipe over the hole. Put an
                          air hose in the same end and tied the 1/2" gas pipe in. Used the
                          torch to light it up. The flame was floating at first and when I
                          turned the reg. on the compressor down to 40 lbs the flame sat on the
                          end of the tube. I think at that air pressure I was getting something
                          like 12 cfm at best.

                          I'm wondering how long the tube needs to be in order to mix the fuel
                          and air properly.

                          Help !!!!

                          Thanks for the reply.

                          Mike
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