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Re: [hobbicast] casting emblems

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  • Jim Clary
    Tom, The plaster is the mold. Get the Kerr Satin cast from Kerr Casting Specialties (Romulus, MI & Orange, CA), if you like to pay full price. Otherwise try
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 30, 2000
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      Tom,

      The "plaster" is the mold. Get the Kerr Satin cast from Kerr Casting
      Specialties (Romulus, MI & Orange, CA), if you like to pay full price.
      Otherwise try A & A Jewelry Tools & Supplies 319 W. 6th Los Angeles, CA 213
      627-8004 whose prices are substantially lower on everything. Satin cast is
      not "plaster" as one would normally think of plaster but SiO2. You can cast
      any metal in this stuff so long as the pouring temperature is not over
      2000F. For more info see http://www.kerrcasting.com/ The only mold release
      needed, if any because your patterns probably have lots of draft (I'm
      guessing here), would be to lightly spray the pattern with Pam which will go
      away during the curing process of the mold. Silicone is often used in making
      investment castings but there are other mold releases that do not have
      silicone in them. It is difficult to get the silicone off and it mostly
      survives the high temperatures of casting. Hydrogen causes other problems
      with liquid metals. Some metals, especially aluminum, and to a lesser degree
      in other metals, take in nascent hydrogen molecules as the metal temperature
      rises. The higher the temp, the more hydrogen is "dissolved" in the metal.
      When the metal freezes it becomes a super-saturated solution of hydrogen,
      which then begins to precipitate out. The nascent hydrogen molecules rapidly
      combine to form H2 which then follows all the physical laws governing gases.
      What I'm saying is that you'll get tiny bubbles throughout your casting.
      When polished you may see tiny specs where the polishing compound filled the
      little holes. When plated, your piece will have thousands of "freckles", one
      for each tiny bubble. Not a very pretty sight when you had in mind a mirror
      like finish. That said, zinc alloys such as ZA-12 won't take in H as long as
      you keep the metal temperature under 1000F which is one of the reasons I
      suggested it. This stuff pours like water and reproduces fine detail
      extremely well. Watch the melt temp like a hawk though. Zinc temp shoots up
      rapidly as soon as it melts so it is easy to over heat.

      Jim Clary


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Netguy" <netguy@...>
      To: "Hobbicast" <hobbicast@egroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:21 PM
      Subject: [hobbicast] casting emblems


      > Robert G -
      >
      > Your casting process sounds interesting. To explain my thoughts a bit
      more - I want to offer a "premium" to owners of luxury cars. You have
      probably noticed that many of them have gold plated emblems. I am interested
      to know if I can (economically) produce a casting in the same
      style/font/size as the factory emblem. Perhaps the Mercedes owner might want
      the 300E on one side of the trunk and Robert's Benz on the other side.
      >
      > The question - Is it possible to make a mold, cast the part, finish and
      plate it for a price that will sell out there in the market?
      >
      > I think Silver will be too expensive to cast @ $5 per 31g, but yes it
      plates very nicely! What can you suggest for low melting point alloys that
      readily accept plating?
      >
      > How clean/smooth will the casting be as it leaves the mold?
      >
      > What is the best/easiest casting machine? Assume I am going to run several
      pcs at once to lower prep costs.
      >
      > Thanks!
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      ------
      >
      > Jim C:
      >
      > All right! A caster that understands what hydrogen embrittlement means to
      the plater!
      >
      > I assume that you are talking about a plaster material for the mold prep.
      OK, where can I get info about Kerr and their products?
      >
      > I can work with Zinc - OK to plate if it is clean, although I worry about
      the mold release. Are they silicone cased?
      >
      > Thanks!
      >
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      ------
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
      > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
      >
      > The Home Foundrymen's Association website may be found here:
      http://members.xoom.com/HWilkinson/index.htm
      > It includes member project pages & links
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > hobbicast-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Robert Grauman
      Hello Tom, Sounds like an admirable and potentially profitable enterprise, although I doubt that you can sell me one for my toy truck. :-) ... plate it Yes,
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
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        Hello Tom,

        Sounds like an admirable and potentially profitable enterprise, although I
        doubt that you can sell me one for my toy truck. :-)

        > The question - Is it possible to make a mold, cast the part, finish and
        plate it

        Yes, that would be a straightforward process.

        > for a price that will sell out there in the market?

        Ah, that's the big question, isn't it? And I'm certainly not in a position
        to answer it for you.

        > I think Silver will be too expensive to cast @ $5 per
        >31g, but yes it plates very nicely! What can you suggest
        >for low melting point alloys that readily accept plating?

        Any number of metals can be investment cast, including stainless steels and
        platinum. It's a matter of choosing the correct investment. I have cast
        zinc, tin, brass, bronze, silver and copper in Kerr Satincast (the same
        investment that Jim suggested for his process). I don't have my literature
        in front of me, but I seem to remember that it was not recommended that
        aluminum be cast in Satincast, but I may be wrong. I like to work sterling
        silver, so I use it most often for small castings, but in your case, I would
        select a metal that would plate well (you're the expert here), and try that.

        > How clean/smooth will the casting be as it leaves the mold?

        If the proper procedure is followed, most of the Satincast crumbles away
        from the casting. It may require a little scrubbing (I use an old tooth
        brush) to remove the investment from some areas of the casting. The lost
        wax process will reproduce very fine detail. The casting will faithfully
        reproduce any flaws in the wax, including finger prints. Tumblers would be
        used in a commercial operation, but I use a polishing wheel charged with
        rouge to bring the item to a bright polish. It just takes a few minutes.

        > What is the best/easiest casting machine? Assume I am
        >going to run several pcs at once to lower prep costs.

        I don't have experience in a commercial production setting. I use a
        centrifugal caster. Several items can be sprued together in a tree in one
        flask. The maximum flask size for my machine is 4" X 6". You can see the
        machine I use at:
        http://www.kerrcasting.com/Product/English/listprod.htm
        and click on the 6" Centrifico Casting Machine. You can also find a lot of
        good information about investment casting at this site.

        I have also used a small vacuum caster, and it allowed the use of slightly
        larger flasks. You can find information about them at the Kerr site as
        well. In my opinion, there is little to choose between the two machines.
        They both work well.

        Another possibility is a spincaster. This machine casts low temperature
        alloys (such as pewter) into high temperature silicone rubbers. This would
        be used in a production environment. As search of the web for "spincaster"
        should cough up a bunch of hits.

        Hope this helps. Jim's suggestions are as valid (probably more so) as mine.
        I'm just presenting some alternatives here.

        Robert Grauman in Sunny Alberta
      • Tom Haltmeyer
        Jim? Could you or anyone tell me where to purchace za-12? Any special fluxes needed? Is it pricey? Thanks Tom H. ... price. ... Angeles, CA 213 ... cast is ...
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
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          Jim?

          Could you or anyone tell me where to purchace za-12? Any special
          fluxes needed? Is it pricey?
          Thanks
          Tom H.
          > Tom,
          >
          > The "plaster" is the mold. Get the Kerr Satin cast from Kerr Casting
          > Specialties (Romulus, MI & Orange, CA), if you like to pay full
          price.
          > Otherwise try A & A Jewelry Tools & Supplies 319 W. 6th Los
          Angeles, CA 213
          > 627-8004 whose prices are substantially lower on everything. Satin
          cast is
          > not "plaster" as one would normally think of plaster but SiO2. You
          can cast
          > any metal in this stuff so long as the pouring temperature is not
          over
          > 2000F. For more info see http://www.kerrcasting.com/ The only mold
          release
          > needed, if any because your patterns probably have lots of draft
          (I'm
          > guessing here), would be to lightly spray the pattern with Pam
          which will go
          > away during the curing process of the mold. Silicone is often used
          in making
          > investment castings but there are other mold releases that do not
          have
          > silicone in them. It is difficult to get the silicone off and it
          mostly
          > survives the high temperatures of casting. Hydrogen causes other
          problems
          > with liquid metals. Some metals, especially aluminum, and to a
          lesser degree
          > in other metals, take in nascent hydrogen molecules as the metal
          temperature
          > rises. The higher the temp, the more hydrogen is "dissolved" in the
          metal.
          > When the metal freezes it becomes a super-saturated solution of
          hydrogen,
          > which then begins to precipitate out. The nascent hydrogen
          molecules rapidly
          > combine to form H2 which then follows all the physical laws
          governing gases.
          > What I'm saying is that you'll get tiny bubbles throughout your
          casting.
          > When polished you may see tiny specs where the polishing compound
          filled the
          > little holes. When plated, your piece will have thousands of
          "freckles", one
          > for each tiny bubble. Not a very pretty sight when you had in mind
          a mirror
          > like finish. That said, zinc alloys such as ZA-12 won't take in H
          as long as
          > you keep the metal temperature under 1000F which is one of the
          reasons I
          > suggested it. This stuff pours like water and reproduces fine detail
          > extremely well. Watch the melt temp like a hawk though. Zinc temp
          shoots up
          > rapidly as soon as it melts so it is easy to over heat.
          >
          > Jim Clary
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Netguy" <netguy@c...>
          > To: "Hobbicast" <hobbicast@egroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:21 PM
          > Subject: [hobbicast] casting emblems
          >
          >
          > > Robert G -
          > >
          > > Your casting process sounds interesting. To explain my thoughts a
          bit
          > more - I want to offer a "premium" to owners of luxury cars. You
          have
          > probably noticed that many of them have gold plated emblems. I am
          interested
          > to know if I can (economically) produce a casting in the same
          > style/font/size as the factory emblem. Perhaps the Mercedes owner
          might want
          > the 300E on one side of the trunk and Robert's Benz on the other
          side.
          > >
          > > The question - Is it possible to make a mold, cast the part,
          finish and
          > plate it for a price that will sell out there in the market?
          > >
          > > I think Silver will be too expensive to cast @ $5 per 31g, but
          yes it
          > plates very nicely! What can you suggest for low melting point
          alloys that
          > readily accept plating?
          > >
          > > How clean/smooth will the casting be as it leaves the mold?
          > >
          > > What is the best/easiest casting machine? Assume I am going to
          run several
          > pcs at once to lower prep costs.
          > >
          > > Thanks!
          > >
          > >
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          ----
          > ------
          > >
          > > Jim C:
          > >
          > > All right! A caster that understands what hydrogen embrittlement
          means to
          > the plater!
          > >
          > > I assume that you are talking about a plaster material for the
          mold prep.
          > OK, where can I get info about Kerr and their products?
          > >
          > > I can work with Zinc - OK to plate if it is clean, although I
          worry about
          > the mold release. Are they silicone cased?
          > >
          > > Thanks!
          > >
          > >
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          ----
          > ------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
          > > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
          > >
          > > The Home Foundrymen's Association website may be found here:
          > http://members.xoom.com/HWilkinson/index.htm
          > > It includes member project pages & links
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > hobbicast-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
        • Jim Clary
          Tom, Buying casting alloys is always difficult for the small foundry. Metal suppliers don t want to mess with sales of less that 2000 pounds (one ton) and that
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
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            Tom,

            Buying casting alloys is always difficult for the small foundry. Metal
            suppliers don't want to mess with sales of less that 2000 pounds (one ton)
            and that is usually too much for us. Your best bet, I think, would be to
            find a local foundry in your yellow pages Business to Business book and see
            if they will be willing to sell you an ingot or more at a time. Your best
            bet for the zinc alloys is the die casters. If you can talk to the owner
            directly and explain what you're doing you'll probably find an empathetic
            ear. These guys all started small too and they love to talk castings. If you
            don't have any luck there, try to find some other guys like yourself that
            will split a bundle with you, even if you have to ship the ingots to them
            across country. Trying to buy any specific alloy by buying scrap is a chancy
            deal, especially with the zinc and copper alloys.

            Jim Clary

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Tom Haltmeyer" <oldies1955@...>
            To: <hobbicast@egroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 9:20 AM
            Subject: [hobbicast] Re: casting emblems/need ZA-12


            > Jim?
            >
            > Could you or anyone tell me where to purchace za-12? Any special
            > fluxes needed? Is it pricey?
            > Thanks
            > Tom H.
            > > Tom,
            > >
            > > The "plaster" is the mold. Get the Kerr Satin cast from Kerr Casting
            > > Specialties (Romulus, MI & Orange, CA), if you like to pay full
            > price.
            > > Otherwise try A & A Jewelry Tools & Supplies 319 W. 6th Los
            > Angeles, CA 213
            > > 627-8004 whose prices are substantially lower on everything. Satin
            > cast is
            > > not "plaster" as one would normally think of plaster but SiO2. You
            > can cast
            > > any metal in this stuff so long as the pouring temperature is not
            > over
            > > 2000F. For more info see http://www.kerrcasting.com/ The only mold
            > release
            > > needed, if any because your patterns probably have lots of draft
            > (I'm
            > > guessing here), would be to lightly spray the pattern with Pam
            > which will go
            > > away during the curing process of the mold. Silicone is often used
            > in making
            > > investment castings but there are other mold releases that do not
            > have
            > > silicone in them. It is difficult to get the silicone off and it
            > mostly
            > > survives the high temperatures of casting. Hydrogen causes other
            > problems
            > > with liquid metals. Some metals, especially aluminum, and to a
            > lesser degree
            > > in other metals, take in nascent hydrogen molecules as the metal
            > temperature
            > > rises. The higher the temp, the more hydrogen is "dissolved" in the
            > metal.
            > > When the metal freezes it becomes a super-saturated solution of
            > hydrogen,
            > > which then begins to precipitate out. The nascent hydrogen
            > molecules rapidly
            > > combine to form H2 which then follows all the physical laws
            > governing gases.
            > > What I'm saying is that you'll get tiny bubbles throughout your
            > casting.
            > > When polished you may see tiny specs where the polishing compound
            > filled the
            > > little holes. When plated, your piece will have thousands of
            > "freckles", one
            > > for each tiny bubble. Not a very pretty sight when you had in mind
            > a mirror
            > > like finish. That said, zinc alloys such as ZA-12 won't take in H
            > as long as
            > > you keep the metal temperature under 1000F which is one of the
            > reasons I
            > > suggested it. This stuff pours like water and reproduces fine detail
            > > extremely well. Watch the melt temp like a hawk though. Zinc temp
            > shoots up
            > > rapidly as soon as it melts so it is easy to over heat.
            > >
            > > Jim Clary
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Netguy" <netguy@c...>
            > > To: "Hobbicast" <hobbicast@egroups.com>
            > > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:21 PM
            > > Subject: [hobbicast] casting emblems
            > >
            > >
            > > > Robert G -
            > > >
            > > > Your casting process sounds interesting. To explain my thoughts a
            > bit
            > > more - I want to offer a "premium" to owners of luxury cars. You
            > have
            > > probably noticed that many of them have gold plated emblems. I am
            > interested
            > > to know if I can (economically) produce a casting in the same
            > > style/font/size as the factory emblem. Perhaps the Mercedes owner
            > might want
            > > the 300E on one side of the trunk and Robert's Benz on the other
            > side.
            > > >
            > > > The question - Is it possible to make a mold, cast the part,
            > finish and
            > > plate it for a price that will sell out there in the market?
            > > >
            > > > I think Silver will be too expensive to cast @ $5 per 31g, but
            > yes it
            > > plates very nicely! What can you suggest for low melting point
            > alloys that
            > > readily accept plating?
            > > >
            > > > How clean/smooth will the casting be as it leaves the mold?
            > > >
            > > > What is the best/easiest casting machine? Assume I am going to
            > run several
            > > pcs at once to lower prep costs.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks!
            > > >
            > > >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            > ----
            > > ------
            > > >
            > > > Jim C:
            > > >
            > > > All right! A caster that understands what hydrogen embrittlement
            > means to
            > > the plater!
            > > >
            > > > I assume that you are talking about a plaster material for the
            > mold prep.
            > > OK, where can I get info about Kerr and their products?
            > > >
            > > > I can work with Zinc - OK to plate if it is clean, although I
            > worry about
            > > the mold release. Are they silicone cased?
            > > >
            > > > Thanks!
            > > >
            > > >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
            > ----
            > > ------
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
            > > > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
            > > >
            > > > The Home Foundrymen's Association website may be found here:
            > > http://members.xoom.com/HWilkinson/index.htm
            > > > It includes member project pages & links
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > hobbicast-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            >
            >
            > Please visit our sponsor: Budget Casting Supply
            > http://budgetcastingsupply.com/
            >
            > The Home Foundrymen's Association website may be found here:
            http://members.xoom.com/HWilkinson/index.htm
            > It includes member project pages & links
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > hobbicast-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
          • LLandstrom
            Don t know much about zameck alloy (or whatever it is) but you can get almost pure zinc in 40 lb ingots from a galvinizer. That s where I get mine. Although I
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
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              Don't know much about zameck alloy (or whatever it is)
              but you can get almost pure zinc in 40 lb ingots from
              a galvinizer. That's where I get mine. Although I use
              it to make brass.

              LL

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
              http://shopping.yahoo.com/
            • Stephen Lovely
              I got some zinc casting alloy from Belmont Metals in Brooklyn New York. I still haven t gotten around to casting anything from it, but they were very happy to
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
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                I got some zinc casting alloy from Belmont Metals in Brooklyn New York.
                I still haven't gotten around to casting anything from it, but they were
                very happy to send me a couple ingots via UPS. I found them in the
                Thomas Register, called them on the phone, gave them a credit card
                number, and the stuff showed up in a few days. It came as a couple of
                separate packages to keep the weight of each package under 70 lbs.

                They sell brass and bronze and such as well.

                Stephen C. Lovely
                Milford, Massachusetts, USA


                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Jim Clary [SMTP:jclary@...]
                > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 12:55 PM
                > To: hobbicast@egroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [hobbicast] Re: casting emblems/need ZA-12
                >
                > Tom,
                >
                > Buying casting alloys is always difficult for the small foundry. Metal
                > suppliers don't want to mess with sales of less that 2000 pounds (one ton)
                > and that is usually too much for us. Your best bet, I think, would be to
                > find a local foundry in your yellow pages Business to Business book and
                > see
                > if they will be willing to sell you an ingot or more at a time. Your best
                > bet for the zinc alloys is the die casters. If you can talk to the owner
                > directly and explain what you're doing you'll probably find an empathetic
                > ear. These guys all started small too and they love to talk castings. If
                > you
                > don't have any luck there, try to find some other guys like yourself that
                > will split a bundle with you, even if you have to ship the ingots to them
                > across country. Trying to buy any specific alloy by buying scrap is a
                > chancy
                > deal, especially with the zinc and copper alloys.
                >
                > Jim Clary
                >
                >
              • LLandstrom
                Atlas metals in Denver will ship small quantities at good prices. They ve got a web-site too. Lyle __________________________________________________ Do You
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
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                  Atlas metals in Denver will ship small quantities at
                  good prices. They've got a web-site too.

                  Lyle

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
                  http://shopping.yahoo.com/
                • Netguy
                  Thanks for the advice. I m not too worried about finding the alloy - my chemical vendor for the other chemicals can get it. I am interested in developing the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
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                    Thanks for the advice.

                    I'm not too worried about finding the alloy - my chemical vendor for the
                    other chemicals can get it.

                    I am interested in developing the needed process and equipment information
                    much more.

                    What do you estimate the total equipment cost will be if I buy quality stuff
                    ?
                  • Robert Grauman
                    ... Here in the wilds of northern Alberta, we are often forced to improvise. We have found a local galvaniser that will sell us ~40 lb ingots of zinc. Some
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 1, 2000
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                      > Don't know much about zameck alloy (or whatever it is)
                      > but you can get almost pure zinc in 40 lb ingots from
                      > a galvinizer. That's where I get mine. Although I use
                      > it to make brass.
                      >
                      > LL

                      Here in the wilds of northern Alberta, we are often forced to improvise. We
                      have found a local galvaniser that will sell us ~40 lb ingots of zinc. Some
                      of us are alloying our own ZA12 with good results to date. ZA12 is 11%
                      aluminum, 1% copper, and the rest zinc, all by weight, of course. We
                      preheat the copper in the crucible, and melt the aluminum on top of the
                      copper. The copper does not need to be molten, and will chemically dissolve
                      in the aluminum. The copper should have a large surface area to volume
                      ratio, and we find that wire scrap works well. When the aluminum is
                      dissolved, the zinc is added, and the temperature of the furnace can be
                      dropped as the zinc mixes in.

                      When melting the ZA12 for casting, it is easy to overheat the metal, as has
                      happened to us a number of times. We have found that a pyrometer is
                      necessary. Do not dross the melt as soon as it melts. It appears that some
                      of the aluminum will float as a slush when the alloy first melts, and if you
                      dross it too soon, you will skim some of the aluminum off. Dross and stir
                      just before pouring.

                      You can find more information about ZA12 at:
                      http://www.eazall.com/ZA%20Casting%20Alloys/ZA%20Casting%20Alloys.html

                      and further information at:

                      http://www.eazall.com/TechLit/Die%20Casting%20Guidelines%20for%20ZA-12%20&%2
                      0ZA-27.pdf

                      I hope this helps.

                      Robert Grauman in Sunny Alberta
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