Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[HJMatMeth] Re: Paul, Dan. 7 and Didache 16:8

Expand Messages
  • John Dominic Crossan
    As I see it now, Ted, you are making two separate, but linked points: (1) the narrower point is that Jesus/Son of Man/Daniel 7 in an apocalyptic context
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 1 8:56 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Re: [HJMatMeth] Paul, Dan. 7 and Didache 16:8 As I see it now, Ted, you are making two separate, but linked points: (1) the narrower point is that Jesus/Son of Man/Daniel 7 in an apocalyptic context derived entirely from Q; and (2) the wider point is that Jesus/Daniel 7 also derived from Q.
      My response, to the former point was that you could make a very good case for it (although you would still have to explain Son of Man in the Gospel of the Hebrews which is usually considered as intracanonically independent).
      My response, to the latter point was that it would be much more difficult to sustain it against the evidence of two places that came immediately to mind. One place was the conjunction of Jesus-Lord/clouds in an apocalyptic context in I Thess 4:17. You replied that Daniel 7 was not in view there and that we only read it into Paul because of a familiarity with the synoptic tradition. You may be right, but it is still a problem for me that everywhere else (?) where we have that conjunction of the apocalyptic Jesus and the clouds, Daniel 7 is in the background. The other place that I mentioned, Didache 16:8, is more important because it is more clearly referring to Daniel 7. Your response to me here raises the prior issue of the independence of the Didache which would have to be established one way or the other before making a decision here.
      In general, I have given my own arguments for that total independence in BofC 119 & 383-387. That changed my earlier acceptance of the arguments of both Helmut Koester and Bentley Layton (references given in BofC; but they only claimed dependence at the start of Didache 1, not elsewhere, and not in Didache 16). With regard to the specific question of whether Didache 16:8 is dependent on Matthew 24:30-31, the best argument for independence is in John S. Kloppenborg, "Didache 16:6-8 and Special Matthean Tradition." ZNW (1979) 70:54-67. That article is based on his M.A. thesis, University of St. Michael's College, 1976, "The Sayings of Jesus in the Didache: A Redaction-Critical Approach." You would certainly not be alone in maintaining that the Didache knows Matthew here and elsewhere. But, I am more persuaded by the alternative arguments.
      The major decision for your purposes is whether you wish to stake everything on both those points mentioned at the start of this post or whether you wish only to argue for the first one. In my view, the "fact" (for me) that Paul and the Didache can speak of Jesus-Lord out of Daniel 7 with no need to make any mention of the Jesus-SonofMan confirms, at least indirectly, your first point. My advice would be to decide very explicitly whether you want to combine that first point, which seems to me more possible, with the second one, which seems to me much less so.




      ----------
      From: "Ted Weeden" <weedent@...>
      To: <hjmaterialsmethodolgy@...>
      Subject: [HJMatMeth] Paul, Dan. 7 and Didache 16:8
      Date: Tue, Feb 29, 2000, 10:28 AM


      Dom,
       
      Thank you for your response to my last post to you. In that you state,"Despite the fact that Paul does not use Son of Man, but does have Jesus involved with "clouds," might that indicate a use of Jesus and Daniel 7:14 in which Jesus is Lord, rather than Son of Man?"  The question I have is this: Is it possible an allusion to Dan 7:14 is read into Paul via Mark, Matthew, etc., linking Daniel's Son of Man and Jesus?   What if we did not have these post-Pauline writings, would we be as likely to see an allusion to Daniel 7:14 in Paul's I Thess parousia event.  I think if we did not we might have reasoned that Paul's image of the clouds comes from Psalmic references to heaven and the presence of God.  Thus Paul links Jesus the Lord with clouds to symbolize Jesus' divine nature and heavenly medium, a la the Psalmic passages I mentioned in my last post linking clouds with God.  
       
      In your post you request: "I would ask you to look also at Didache 16:8 where once again we have the Lord and "clouds" in an apocalyptic consummation."
      As I read Didache 16:6-8, I see a lot of Pauline influence: sound of the trumpet, the resurrection of the dead, the coming of the Lord, all the saints with the returning Lord. Only in 16:8, "Then shall the world see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven with him," is there a departure from the Pauline scenario.  At that point it looks like the Matthean scenario was tied in.  
       
      Let me express my appreciation again to you for your very helpful and, as always, insightful responses to the seminar questions placed to you.
       
      Ted





      To Post a message, send it to:   hjmaterialsmethodolgy@... <mailto:hjmaterialsmethodolgy@...>  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: hjmaterialsmethodolgy-unsubscribe@... <mailto:hjmaterialsmethodolgy-unsubscribe@...>





      eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/hjmaterialsmethodolgy
      www.egroups.com <http://www.egroups.com>  - Simplifying group communications

    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.