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programming tutorial

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  • kerravon86
    Blithely unaware (uninterested?) in whatever else may already be available, I decided to create my own tutorial to teach people programming. As per PDOS/390
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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      Blithely unaware (uninterested?) in whatever else may
      already be available, I decided to create my own
      tutorial to teach people programming. As per PDOS/390
      etc, I prefer to do my own rendition of things,
      uninfluenced by existing art, before swapping notes
      with others. That way I try to get things derived
      from first principles.

      Here is what I have so far:

      http://www.mutazilah.org/learnp.htm

      It's all BASIC so far. I'm using bwbasic (available
      on MVS) as the starting point, when I noticed that
      Windows doesn't seem to come with gwbasic anymore.

      I assume we're using bwbasic on MVS because that is
      the only version of basic that has been written
      portably. For that, I lean on the research others
      have done.

      Feedback from one Filipino guinea pig has been "this
      is as easy as chewing candy". That means if you're
      an ex-operator and always wondered what the toffs
      in the programming department were up to, this may
      be for you. I have a theory that I can teach
      programming even to those who have dropped out of
      primary school. Or even current primary school
      children. I'm still doing my human experimentation
      to test my theories.

      My plan is to switch to C after the basics of BASIC
      have been mastered. And my longer-term plan is to
      see if I can impart the concept of a 3-way diff.

      Note that as you would expect from me, my tutorial
      is designed to impart concepts, not be rote learning.

      BFN. Paul.
    • Mark Morgan Lloyd
      ... I m not sure this is the place to discuss this, but I d query your choice of C as the next step. I m no great lover of C-style languages, but I d suggest
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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        kerravon86 wrote:

        > My plan is to switch to C after the basics of BASIC
        > have been mastered. And my longer-term plan is to
        > see if I can impart the concept of a 3-way diff.
        >
        > Note that as you would expect from me, my tutorial
        > is designed to impart concepts, not be rote learning.

        I'm not sure this is the place to discuss this, but I'd query your
        choice of C as the next step. I'm no great lover of C-style languages,
        but I'd suggest that going straight onto C++ plus a class library that
        hid all pointer/address handling might be better; alternatively (with a
        nod to this forum) some high-level language traditionally well-supported
        by mainframes.

        --
        Mark Morgan Lloyd
        markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

        [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]
      • Mike Schwab
        On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 8:37 AM, Mark Morgan Lloyd ... A Hello World program in Cobol would be better. And a link to http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/ to show
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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          On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 8:37 AM, Mark Morgan Lloyd
          <markMLl.hercules-os380@...> wrote:
          > kerravon86 wrote:
          >
          >> My plan is to switch to C after the basics of BASIC
          >> have been mastered. And my longer-term plan is to
          >> see if I can impart the concept of a 3-way diff.
          >>
          >> Note that as you would expect from me, my tutorial
          >> is designed to impart concepts, not be rote learning.
          >
          > I'm not sure this is the place to discuss this, but I'd query your
          > choice of C as the next step. I'm no great lover of C-style languages,
          > but I'd suggest that going straight onto C++ plus a class library that
          > hid all pointer/address handling might be better; alternatively (with a
          > nod to this forum) some high-level language traditionally well-supported
          > by mainframes.
          >
          > --
          > Mark Morgan Lloyd

          A Hello World program in Cobol would be better.

          And a link to http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/ to show all the
          different languages would be nice.
        • Rene Ferland
          Dear Paul, I tried to go through your tutorial but I get stuck right before starting :-(. I created c: learnp like you say but I can t download bwbasic.exe
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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            Dear Paul,

            I tried to go through your tutorial but I get stuck right before starting :-(. I created c:\learnp like you say but I can't download bwbasic.exe from the link you give. Clicking on that link leads to a page inviting me to download the latest version. If I do so I get an error message:

            Unable to find any mirror information for the "/bwbasic/version 2.50/bwbasic.exe" file. Please select another file.

            What am I doing wrong?

            Yours truly,

            Rene FERLAND, Montreal
          • Robert Duncan
            All these flavors of BASIC really complicates things, doesn t it? I have access to a number of them: Visual Basic 6.0, QBASIC (I have the compiler version
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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              All these "flavors" of BASIC really complicates things, doesn't it? I have access to a number of them: Visual Basic 6.0, QBASIC (I have the compiler version with a linkage editor so I can make stand-alone executables), and even 1970s-era HP (2000 Access) BASIC using the SimH "Clean Access" emulator and LBASIC running under LDOS on a TRS-80 Model III emulator that I have!!!
               
              Please check out my You Tube channel: ==> dosvsoperator!!!


              From: Rene Ferland <ferland.rene@...>
              To: hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2012 9:17 AM
              Subject: [hercules-os380] Re: programming tutorial

               


              Dear Paul,

              I tried to go through your tutorial but I get stuck right before starting :-(. I created c:\learnp like you say but I can't download bwbasic.exe from the link you give. Clicking on that link leads to a page inviting me to download the latest version. If I do so I get an error message:

              Unable to find any mirror information for the "/bwbasic/version 2.50/bwbasic.exe" file. Please select another file.

              What am I doing wrong?

              Yours truly,

              Rene FERLAND, Montreal



            • Rene Ferland
              ... You probably have Visual Basic Script too (VBScript), a scripting langage on Windows. I used it to automatize the printing tasks I talked about in
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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                --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, Robert Duncan <dosvsoperator@...> wrote:
                >
                > All these "flavors" of BASIC really complicates things, doesn't it? I have access to a number of them: Visual Basic 6.0, QBASIC (I have the compiler version with a linkage editor so I can make stand-alone executables), and even 1970s-era HP (2000 Access) BASIC using the SimH "Clean Access" emulator and LBASIC running under LDOS on a TRS-80 Model III emulator that I have!!!

                You probably have Visual Basic Script too (VBScript), a scripting langage on Windows. I used it to automatize the printing tasks I talked about in hercules-390.

                Yours truly,

                Rene FERLAND, Montreal
              • kerravon86
                ... Apologies. I released bwbasic 2.60 yesterday and I didn t update the link properly. Please try again and let me know if you still have an issue. You ll
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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                  --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Rene Ferland" <ferland.rene@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I can't download bwbasic.exe from the link you give.

                  Apologies. I released bwbasic 2.60 yesterday and I
                  didn't update the link properly.

                  Please try again and let me know if you still have
                  an issue. You'll need to refresh the page (ctrl-f5
                  or whatever).

                  BFN. Paul.
                • kerravon86
                  ... Better than which of the above? hello world is too simple. I have BASIC for something that simple, much easier to get running on the PC than Cobol. Once
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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                    --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, Mike Schwab <Mike.A.Schwab@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 8:37 AM, Mark Morgan Lloyd
                    > <markMLl.hercules-os380@...> wrote:
                    > > kerravon86 wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> My plan is to switch to C after the basics of BASIC
                    > >> have been mastered. And my longer-term plan is to
                    > >> see if I can impart the concept of a 3-way diff.
                    > >>
                    > >> Note that as you would expect from me, my tutorial
                    > >> is designed to impart concepts, not be rote learning.
                    > >
                    > > I'm not sure this is the place to discuss this, but I'd query your
                    > > choice of C as the next step. I'm no great lover of C-style languages,
                    > > but I'd suggest that going straight onto C++ plus a class library that
                    > > hid all pointer/address handling might be better; alternatively (with a
                    > > nod to this forum) some high-level language traditionally well-supported
                    > > by mainframes.
                    >
                    > A Hello World program in Cobol would be better.

                    Better than which of the above? "hello world" is
                    too simple. I have BASIC for something that simple,
                    much easier to get running on the PC than Cobol.

                    Once the "simple" concepts of if/then/else and while
                    have been imparted via BASIC, my plan was to switch
                    to a more useful language. To me that is C, but I
                    can see the disadvantage of hauling an absolute
                    beginner through a firestorm.

                    > And a link to http://www.99-bottles-of-beer.net/ to show all the
                    > different languages would be nice.

                    Thanks for the link. That is now incorporated into
                    the tutorial.

                    Time to reevaluate hell.

                    I was toying with the idea that maybe the people I
                    teach could work on PDOS, which is in C.

                    Ultimately I am planning on farming out PDOS
                    development because I simply don't have the
                    personality to write code for any length of
                    time. My father died recently and I am going
                    to inherit money which will allow me to
                    fast-track my "social experiments". Previously
                    I had saved basically just enough to maintain
                    a basic life for myself, but needed to continue
                    to work to fund my social experiments.

                    BFN. Paul.
                  • Rene Ferland
                    ... It s worse than before: I can t even get to http://www.mutazilah.org/learnp.htm now! I get a time out: (net::ERR_CONNECTION_TIMED_OUT) . Anyway I am
                    Message 9 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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                      --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "kerravon86" <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Rene Ferland" <ferland.rene@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I can't download bwbasic.exe from the link you give.
                      >
                      > Apologies. I released bwbasic 2.60 yesterday and I
                      > didn't update the link properly.
                      >
                      > Please try again and let me know if you still have
                      > an issue.

                      It's worse than before: I can't even get to http://www.mutazilah.org/learnp.htm now! I get a time out: (net::ERR_CONNECTION_TIMED_OUT) . Anyway I am willing to wait a little :-)

                      Yours truly,

                      Rene FERLAND, Montreal
                    • William Gallant
                      Perhaps after much of the tutorial is written and much depth of programming has been covered, you could mention APL as something to look into because of it s
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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                        Perhaps after much of the tutorial is written and much
                        "depth" of programming has been covered, you could
                        mention APL as something to look into because of it's
                        ability to express algorithms.

                        --- William Gallant
                      • kerravon86
                        ... I clicked on your link above and it worked for me. Don t tell me the government is worried about me giving away programming secrets and has blocked my
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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                          --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Rene Ferland" <ferland.rene@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "kerravon86" <kerravon86@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Rene Ferland" <ferland.rene@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I can't download bwbasic.exe from the link you give.
                          > >
                          > > Apologies. I released bwbasic 2.60 yesterday and I
                          > > didn't update the link properly.
                          > >
                          > > Please try again and let me know if you still have
                          > > an issue.
                          >
                          > It's worse than before: I can't even get to http://www.mutazilah.org/learnp.htm now! I get a time out: (net::ERR_CONNECTION_TIMED_OUT) . Anyway I am willing to wait a little :-)

                          I clicked on your link above and it worked for me.
                          Don't tell me the government is worried about me
                          giving away programming secrets and has blocked my
                          website?

                          At my work the easy-to-remember name of my website -
                          japan666.com - is blocked (but not mutazilah.org),
                          and I was wondering if that was because the
                          Australian government saw it printed on my protest
                          sign and put me on a blacklist.

                          BFN. Paul.
                        • Rene Ferland
                          ... I would be very surprised if this was the case. :-) Anyway it s working now. Can t wait to learn programming with BASIC; C was a pain for me 30 years ago
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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                            > Don't tell me the government is worried about me
                            > giving away programming secrets and has blocked my
                            > website?

                            I would be very surprised if this was the case. :-)

                            Anyway it's working now. Can't wait to learn programming with BASIC; C was a pain for me 30 years ago but maybe you will know how to make it a fun experience.

                            Regards,

                            Rene FERLAND, Montreal
                          • Gerhard Postpischil
                            ... I d go for REXX next. SAY Hello, world! is just as simple, and you can disambiguate the confusion over double quotes versus apostrophe quotes (single
                            Message 13 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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                              On 11/6/2012 12:16 PM, kerravon86 wrote:
                              >> A Hello World program in Cobol would be better.
                              >
                              > Better than which of the above? "hello world" is
                              > too simple. I have BASIC for something that simple,
                              > much easier to get running on the PC than Cobol.

                              I'd go for REXX next.

                              SAY "Hello, world!"

                              is just as simple, and you can disambiguate the confusion over "double
                              quotes" versus apostrophe quotes (single quotes?). Not knowing
                              programming, I interpreted "double quotes" as meaning quotes are paired.

                              > I was toying with the idea that maybe the people I
                              > teach could work on PDOS, which is in C.

                              And six monkeys with typewriters could reproduce all of Shakespeare,
                              given enough time <g>
                            • kerravon86
                              ... Please report back as soon as you have some feedback to share. I ll monitor from work. ... My focus was totally on very carefully imparting concepts. ie to
                              Message 14 of 24 , Nov 6, 2012
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                                --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Rene Ferland" <ferland.rene@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > > Don't tell me the government is worried about me
                                > > giving away programming secrets and has blocked my
                                > > website?
                                >
                                > I would be very surprised if this was the case. :-)
                                >
                                > Anyway it's working now. Can't wait to learn programming
                                > with BASIC;

                                Please report back as soon as you have some
                                feedback to share. I'll monitor from work.

                                > C was a pain for me 30 years ago but maybe
                                > you will know how to make it a fun experience.

                                My focus was totally on very carefully imparting
                                concepts. ie to make sure everything followed
                                logically from the previous step, so that
                                almost anyone could follow it. It never occurred
                                to me to make it fun, and I'm not sure I know how
                                to do that, but I have a theory that many people
                                will be very happy that it is within their reach
                                to be able to say "I know how to program computers".
                                I think that is a good thing to be able to say
                                about something that is so central to modern life.

                                BFN. Paul.
                              • Gerhard Postpischil
                                I splurged and got a new computer, and decided to install the latest MVS380 package (mvs380-1_2_rtr.zip). I ve tried to download this file several times, under
                                Message 15 of 24 , Nov 8, 2012
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                                  I splurged and got a new computer, and decided to install the latest
                                  MVS380 package (mvs380-1_2_rtr.zip). I've tried to download this file
                                  several times, under different conditions (time of day, idle system,
                                  etc.), and I keep getting a corrupted file message both with Windows and
                                  WinZIP decompression. The url came from the file section - links page,
                                  and the alternate download site doesn't have any alternate addresses. Is
                                  Scott's version broken, or am I just lucky?

                                  Gerhard Postpischil
                                  Bradford, Vermont
                                • ScottC
                                  ... Sorry Gerhard, and thanks for reporting. At first glance, Wuala may have changed the URL structure needed to download. Try:
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Nov 8, 2012
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                                    --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, Gerhard Postpischil <gerhard@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I splurged and got a new computer, and decided to install the latest
                                    > MVS380 package (mvs380-1_2_rtr.zip). I've tried to download this file
                                    > several times, under different conditions (time of day, idle system,
                                    > etc.), and I keep getting a corrupted file message both with Windows and
                                    > WinZIP decompression. The url came from the file section - links page,
                                    > and the alternate download site doesn't have any alternate addresses. Is
                                    > Scott's version broken, or am I just lucky?
                                    >
                                    > Gerhard Postpischil
                                    > Bradford, Vermont

                                    Sorry Gerhard, and thanks for reporting. At first glance, Wuala may have changed the URL structure needed to download. Try:

                                    http://content.wuala.com/contents/sccosel/mvs380/mvs380-1_2_rtr.zip?id=1,1566783,11-131,1566783,18

                                    If that doesn't work, try link:

                                    http://www.wuala.com/sccosel/mvs380/

                                    and click on mvs380-1_2_rtr.zip (77.4 MB).

                                    Let me know your results.

                                    Thanks, ScottC
                                  • Dave Wade
                                    Internet Explorer some times keeps a bad copy of a download in its cache. I always clear the temporary internet files cache before re trying a failed download.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Nov 8, 2012
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                                      Internet Explorer some times keeps a bad copy of a download in its cache. I always clear the temporary internet files cache before re trying a failed download.

                                      On 9 Nov 2012 06:14, "ScottC" <sccosel@...> wrote:

                                      --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, Gerhard Postpischil <gerhard@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I splurged and g...

                                      Sorry Gerhard, and thanks for reporting. At first glance, Wuala may have changed the URL structure needed to download.  Try:

                                      http://content.wuala.com/contents/sccosel/mvs380/mvs380-1_2_rtr.zip?id=1,1566783,11-131,1566783,18

                                      If that doesn't work, try link:

                                      http://www.wuala.com/sccosel/mvs380/

                                      and click on mvs380-1_2_rtr.zip (77.4 MB).

                                      Let me know your results.

                                      Thanks, ScottC





                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links

                                      <*> To visit your group on the web, g...

                                    • Gerhard Postpischil
                                      ... -- Gerhard Postpischil Bradford, Vermont
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Nov 9, 2012
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                                        On 11/9/2012 1:14 AM, ScottC wrote:
                                        > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, Gerhard Postpischil <gerhard@...> wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >> I splurged and got a new computer, and decided to install the latest
                                        >> MVS380 package (mvs380-1_2_rtr.zip). I've tried to download this file
                                        >> several times, under different conditions (time of day, idle system,
                                        >> etc.), and I keep getting a corrupted file message both with Windows and
                                        >> WinZIP decompression. The url came from the file section - links page,
                                        >> and the alternate download site doesn't have any alternate addresses. Is
                                        >> Scott's version broken, or am I just lucky?
                                        >>
                                        >> Gerhard Postpischil
                                        >> Bradford, Vermont
                                        >
                                        > Sorry Gerhard, and thanks for reporting. At first glance, Wuala may have changed the URL structure needed to download. Try:
                                        >
                                        > http://content.wuala.com/contents/sccosel/mvs380/mvs380-1_2_rtr.zip?id=1,1566783,11-131,1566783,18
                                        >
                                        > If that doesn't work, try link:
                                        >
                                        > http://www.wuala.com/sccosel/mvs380/
                                        >
                                        > and click on mvs380-1_2_rtr.zip (77.4 MB).
                                        >
                                        > Let me know your results.
                                        >
                                        > Thanks, ScottC
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        --

                                        Gerhard Postpischil
                                        Bradford, Vermont
                                      • Gerhard Postpischil
                                        ... I don t use Windows Explorer except when unavoidable, and I have Netscape set to purge on closing. In the specific case of mvs-380, the file is too large
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Nov 9, 2012
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                                          On 11/9/2012 2:43 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
                                          > Internet Explorer some times keeps a bad copy of a download in its
                                          > cache. I always clear the temporary internet files cache before re
                                          > trying a failed download.

                                          I don't use Windows Explorer except when unavoidable, and I have
                                          Netscape set to purge on closing. In the specific case of mvs-380, the
                                          file is too large for the cache, anyway.

                                          But I have run into problems where pages were cached, despite the settings.

                                          Gerhard Postpischil
                                          Bradford, Vermont
                                        • kerravon86
                                          ... Any feedback yet? A few days ago I completed the rest of BASIC I wanted to do, and provided a transition to C. So now it is basically complete, subject to
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 9, 2013
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                                            --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Rene Ferland" <ferland.rene@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Don't tell me the government is worried about me
                                            > > giving away programming secrets and has blocked my
                                            > > website?
                                            >
                                            > I would be very surprised if this was the case. :-)
                                            >
                                            > Anyway it's working now. Can't wait to learn
                                            > programming with BASIC; C was a pain for me
                                            > 30 years ago but maybe you will know how to
                                            > make it a fun experience.

                                            Any feedback yet? A few days ago I completed
                                            the rest of BASIC I wanted to do, and provided
                                            a transition to C. So now it is basically
                                            complete, subject to feedback.

                                            BFN. Paul.
                                          • Rene Ferland
                                            ... Well basically I don t have any :( Your stuff was amusing, but that I already know since a long time. So I can t comment as a newbie learning from scratch.
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 9, 2013
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                                              --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "kerravon86" <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Rene Ferland" <ferland.rene@> wrote:
                                              > Any feedback yet?

                                              Well basically I don't have any :( Your stuff was amusing, but that I already know since a long time. So I can't comment as a newbie learning from scratch. I lost that perspective a long time ago, and sometimes I miss it at work (I am a professor).

                                              Yours truly,

                                              Rene FERLAND, Montreal
                                            • Gerhard Postpischil
                                              A little earlier today I got a request for a group membership. When I went to the yahoo web site to approve it, I got complete and total garbage. I tried
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 24, 2013
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                                                A little earlier today I got a request for a group membership. When I
                                                went to the yahoo web site to approve it, I got complete and total
                                                garbage. I tried several things, but never got anything resembling
                                                coherent text, drop-down menus, or other niceties to do anything. Worse
                                                than that, I couldn't even file I complaint - just got an unspecified
                                                "failed" message. Google groups, anyone? Or are they too intrusive?

                                                Gerhard Postpischil
                                                Bradford, Vermont
                                              • sccosel
                                                Paul beat you to it, perhaps a millisecond before you? ________________________________ From: Gerhard Postpischil To:
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 24, 2013
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                                                  Paul beat you to it, perhaps a millisecond before you?


                                                  From: Gerhard Postpischil <gerhard@...>
                                                  To: hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 12:38 PM
                                                  Subject: [hercules-os380] Group problem

                                                   
                                                  A little earlier today I got a request for a group membership. When I
                                                  went to the yahoo web site to approve it, I got complete and total
                                                  garbage. I tried several things, but never got anything resembling
                                                  coherent text, drop-down menus, or other niceties to do anything. Worse
                                                  than that, I couldn't even file I complaint - just got an unspecified
                                                  "failed" message. Google groups, anyone? Or are they too intrusive?

                                                  Gerhard Postpischil
                                                  Bradford, Vermont


                                                • kerravon86
                                                  I approved today s join without any issue. Yahoo Groups has taken a disastrous turn though - it s harder to navigate now. They made a change a couple of
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 24, 2013
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                                                    I approved "today"'s join without any issue.

                                                     

                                                    Yahoo Groups has taken a disastrous turn though - it's

                                                    harder to navigate now. They made a change a couple

                                                    of weeks ago called "neo".

                                                     

                                                    BFN.  Paul.

                                                     



                                                    ---In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, <hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                                    A little earlier today I got a request for a group membership. When I
                                                    went to the yahoo web site to approve it, I got complete and total
                                                    garbage. I tried several things, but never got anything resembling
                                                    coherent text, drop-down menus, or other niceties to do anything. Worse
                                                    than that, I couldn't even file I complaint - just got an unspecified
                                                    "failed" message. Google groups, anyone? Or are they too intrusive?

                                                    Gerhard Postpischil
                                                    Bradford, Vermont
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