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PDOS Help

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  • Adrian
    I ve downloaded PDOS and tried to run it on my linux server. I start Hercules with pdos.cnf I ipl 1b9 - and get a promising Welcome to PDOS!!! . But then I am
    Message 1 of 30 , Jul 17, 2011
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      I've downloaded PDOS and tried to run it on my linux server.

      I start Hercules with pdos.cnf

      I ipl 1b9 - and get a promising "Welcome to PDOS!!!".

      But then I am stuck.

      I tried "/dir" "/ dir" "/(0009) dir" at the console. Not getting any results.

      From memory I can't remeber if I am forgetting something ... I'm sure I am being dumb!

      A.
    • kerravon86
      ... There are multiple flavours of PDOS - which one did you use? The best one (ie latest, and uses standard ESA/390 hardware) to use is from here:
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 17, 2011
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        --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Adrian" <adrian@...> wrote:
        >
        > I've downloaded PDOS and tried to run it on my linux server.
        >
        > I start Hercules with pdos.cnf
        >
        > I ipl 1b9 - and get a promising "Welcome to PDOS!!!".
        >
        > But then I am stuck.
        >
        > I tried "/dir" "/ dir" "/(0009) dir" at the console.
        > Not getting any results.
        >
        > From memory I can't remeber if I am forgetting something
        > ... I'm sure I am being dumb!

        There are multiple flavours of PDOS - which one did
        you use? The best one (ie latest, and uses standard
        ESA/390 hardware) to use is from here:

        http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdos/files/pdos/

        called "pdos-stage67". It has source code too.

        If you downloaded one of the S/380 flavours, it
        may not work unless you have a recent Hercules/380
        that recognizes all the CRx settings. So which
        version of Herc or Herc380 are you running?

        BFN. Paul.
      • Adrian
        Mmm ... I am using the 67 build from sourceforge but am using a year old version of Herculese. What should happen? How should I be able to send to the console?
        Message 3 of 30 , Jul 17, 2011
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          Mmm ... I am using the 67 build from sourceforge but am using a year old version of Herculese.

          What should happen? How should I be able to send to the console?

          One thing - the cpu address counter thing does not change making me think that pdos is waiting on the change.

          I am using linux but the scripts dont seem to be doing anyghing significant?

          Should I try it on windows do you think?

          A.

          --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "kerravon86" <kerravon86@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Adrian" <adrian@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I've downloaded PDOS and tried to run it on my linux server.
          > >
          > > I start Hercules with pdos.cnf
          > >
          > > I ipl 1b9 - and get a promising "Welcome to PDOS!!!".
          > >
          > > But then I am stuck.
          > >
          > > I tried "/dir" "/ dir" "/(0009) dir" at the console.
          > > Not getting any results.
          > >
          > > From memory I can't remeber if I am forgetting something
          > > ... I'm sure I am being dumb!
          >
          > There are multiple flavours of PDOS - which one did
          > you use? The best one (ie latest, and uses standard
          > ESA/390 hardware) to use is from here:
          >
          > http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdos/files/pdos/
          >
          > called "pdos-stage67". It has source code too.
          >
          > If you downloaded one of the S/380 flavours, it
          > may not work unless you have a recent Hercules/380
          > that recognizes all the CRx settings. So which
          > version of Herc or Herc380 are you running?
          >
          > BFN. Paul.
          >
        • kerravon86
          ... There was a time where there was a bug in the S/390 option of Hercules/380. If that is the case, you need to either upgrade Hercules/380 or revert to a
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 18, 2011
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            --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Adrian" <adrian@...> wrote:
            >
            > Mmm ... I am using the 67 build from sourceforge
            > but am using a year old version of Herculese.

            There was a time where there was a bug in the S/390
            option of Hercules/380. If that is the case, you
            need to either upgrade Hercules/380 or revert to a
            standard Hercules build.

            > What should happen? How should I be able to send to the console?

            You should be seeing this (tried just now on stage67):

            Hercules Version 3.07:380-3.0
            (c)Copyright 1999-2010 by Roger Bowler, Jan Jaeger, and others
            Built on Apr 15 2011 at 14:37:42
            Build information:
            Windows (MSVC) build for i386
            Modes: S/370 S/380 ESA/390 z/Arch
            Max CPU Engines: 8
            Using fthreads instead of pthreads
            Dynamic loading support
            Using shared libraries
            HTTP Server support
            No SIGABEND handler
            Regular Expressions support
            Automatic Operator support
            Machine dependent assists: cmpxchg1 cmpxchg4 cmpxchg8 fetch_dw store_dw
            Running on PAUL-DELL Windows_NT-6.1 i686 MP=4
            HHCHD018I Loadable module directory is hercules
            Crypto module loaded (c) Copyright Bernard van der Helm, 2003-2010
            Active: Message Security Assist
            Message Security Assist Extension 1
            Message Security Assist Extension 2
            HHCCF065I Hercules: tid=001A7130, pid=1732928, pgid=1732928, priority=0
            HHCDA020I pdos00.cckd cyls=1113 heads=15 tracks=16695 trklen=56832
            HHCCP002I CPU0000 thread started: tid=001A71D0, pid=1732928, priority=15
            HHCCP003I CPU0000 architecture mode ESA/390
            HHCPN001I Control panel thread started: tid=001A7130, pid=1732928
            HHCTT002I Timer thread started: tid=001A71F4, pid=1732928, priority=0
            HHCAO001I Hercules Automatic Operator thread started;
            tid=001A7208, pri=0, pid=1732928
            ipl 1b9
            Welcome to PDOS!!!
            welcome to pcomm
            echo off
            welcome to autoexec.bat
            type "help" for some example commands
            note that in order to use GCC:
            (GCC) 3.2.3 MVS V8.x
            Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
            This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO
            warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

            you need a command such as:
            gcc -S -I . -o - sample.c
            the package should have shipped with "mvsunzip pdpi.zip" already run
            that's enough for now - enter further commands yourself!

            PDOS00:\>

            > One thing - the cpu address counter thing does
            > not change making me think that pdos is waiting
            > on the change.

            Not sure what the problem might be. What is the
            PSW while it is waiting? Also you can try switching
            on instruction and/or CCW tracing.

            t+ 0-ffffffff
            t+1b9

            > I am using linux but the scripts dont seem to be
            > doing anyghing significant?
            >
            > Should I try it on windows do you think?

            Wouldn't hurt, since that's the only thing that has
            been tested. :-)

            BFN. Paul.
          • Adrian
            ... I updated to the latest [base] version of Hercules and it all works perfectly on Linux. I have reviewed the code and think I understand where you got to
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 19, 2011
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              > There was a time where there was a bug in the S/390
              > option of Hercules/380. If that is the case, you
              > need to either upgrade Hercules/380 or revert to a
              > standard Hercules build.

              I updated to the latest [base] version of Hercules and it all works perfectly on Linux.

              I have reviewed the code and think I understand where you got to and where you were going (if you see what I mean). It feels to me that you have got over a huge hurdle to get to a working system. Adding/refining/improving will now be easy steps. You just need some folks to help I guess. What do you see as the biggest priority? A 3270 Interface?

              Now I will play with rebuilding it. I notice that you are using the MVS/3.8 assembler. Immediate questions - Tried getting that assembler working in PDOS? Tried alternatives? Could the Linux S/390 tool chain be made to work (I know GAS has a non-standard syntax but does that matter now)? Or the z390 free assembler? In fact did you try getting GCCMVS working on z390 (I guess the answer would be "why would you want to"!)?

              A.
            • Dave
              ... I didn t try Z390 but I did try the earlier PC370 assembler and emulator package for DOS. Total disaster.
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 20, 2011
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                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian
                > Sent: 20 July 2011 03:16
                > To: hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [hercules-os380] Re: PDOS Help
                >
                >
                > > There was a time where there was a bug in the S/390
                > > option of Hercules/380. If that is the case, you
                > > need to either upgrade Hercules/380 or revert to a
                > > standard Hercules build.
                >
                > I updated to the latest [base] version of Hercules and it all
                > works perfectly on Linux.
                >
                > I have reviewed the code and think I understand where you got
                > to and where you were going (if you see what I mean). It
                > feels to me that you have got over a huge hurdle to get to a
                > working system. Adding/refining/improving will now be easy
                > steps. You just need some folks to help I guess. What do you
                > see as the biggest priority? A 3270 Interface?
                >
                > Now I will play with rebuilding it. I notice that you are
                > using the MVS/3.8 assembler. Immediate questions - Tried
                > getting that assembler working in PDOS? Tried alternatives?
                > Could the Linux S/390 tool chain be made to work (I know GAS
                > has a non-standard syntax but does that matter now)? Or the
                > z390 free assembler? In fact did you try getting GCCMVS
                > working on z390 (I guess the answer would be "why would you
                > want to"!)?
                >

                I didn't try Z390 but I did try the earlier PC370 assembler and emulator
                package for DOS. Total disaster.

                > A.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • kerravon86
                ... Great! ... Yeah, the initial direction was spelled out in comments at the end of pdos.c. The beginning of pdos.c was closer to what was really implemented,
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 20, 2011
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                  --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Adrian" <adrian@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > There was a time where there was a bug in the S/390
                  > > option of Hercules/380. If that is the case, you
                  > > need to either upgrade Hercules/380 or revert to a
                  > > standard Hercules build.
                  >
                  > I updated to the latest [base] version of Hercules
                  > and it all works perfectly on Linux.

                  Great!

                  > I have reviewed the code and think I understand
                  > where you got to and where you were going (if
                  > you see what I mean).

                  Yeah, the initial direction was spelled out in
                  comments at the end of pdos.c. The beginning of
                  pdos.c was closer to what was really implemented,
                  but even that isn't how it turned out.

                  > It feels to me that you have got over a huge
                  > hurdle to get to a working system.

                  Yes, having a working system is a huge boon as it
                  allows instant regression testing when trying out
                  tricky code changes. It's also the way I work - I
                  lack the patience to spend a long time on
                  development. I need to see immediate results. It's
                  also part of my nature that I enjoy swatting bugs
                  with their black/white nature, but I'm not too
                  thrilled about wishy-washy grey artsy-fartsy
                  coding. The end result is a haphazard path to an
                  uncertain destination. But PDOS got me what I was
                  after for decades - a PC DOS prompt.

                  > Adding/refining/improving will now be easy steps.

                  Yes, I hope that the existence of the basic
                  infrastructure makes it less daunting to push
                  forward.

                  > You just need some folks to help I guess.

                  I'm not entirely sure what it needs now. My
                  personal involvement has largely been absent due
                  to my switch of attention to Libya et al.
                  Assuming I can return to my normal state, which
                  is "there's nothing further you can do about the
                  human world, may as well stick with the computer
                  world where there are no restrictions but your
                  own imagination", what would be the next steps
                  for PDOS?

                  I certainly think it needs a major revamp and
                  preferably peer review to get it more-or-less
                  into line with what IBM has done. e.g. the RB
                  type looks like it has been created without any
                  reference to IBM's RB control block. Design by
                  committee is no longer a danger now that the
                  proof of concept is already there. Some major
                  "themes" are also out there and destined to
                  remain, such as defining stdin/stdout (SYSIN/
                  SYSPRINT) as RECFM=U, unit record, and letting
                  PDOS interpret the newline character. Something
                  hitherto alien to the mainframe, but working
                  like a charm on PDOS. But I do think it needs a
                  committee to pull it into line and break it up
                  along appropriate lines. ie properly architected,
                  which I don't think it is now. And pdos.c can't
                  just keep on growing.

                  > What do you see as the biggest priority?

                  That's a tough one. I've taken some shortcuts such
                  as space is always allocated as 1 cylinder. That
                  interfered with GCCMVS 3.4.6 where I needed to change
                  it to 2 cylinders to get it through. Getting the
                  assembler and linker working would be good candidates
                  too, but I fear they may call on a lot of missing
                  infrastructure. Another one I'd really like to see is
                  getting emacs working, which (I believe) I've been told
                  is possible if I use TCAM (whatever that is).

                  Another thing that hasn't been proven (or written)
                  is multi-cpu and multi-tasking. Also currently apps
                  are being run in supervisor status.

                  But mostly I think a proper redesign is required
                  before moving forward.

                  > A 3270 Interface?

                  Well what I had envisioned for that is for Rocky's
                  editor to be used at some point. I think it's called
                  GEDIT. So you could go:

                  GEDIT 0C1 &

                  at the PDOS prompt and it would run his editor
                  using device 0C1 as the 3270 terminal. I don't
                  know what TSO facilities Rocky uses, but I would
                  hope that most of the work is already being done
                  in his program and the 3270 emulator and Hercules
                  so I can get all that functionality for free.

                  > Now I will play with rebuilding it. I notice
                  > that you are using the MVS/3.8 assembler.
                  > Immediate questions - Tried getting that
                  > assembler working in PDOS?

                  Not yet.

                  > Tried alternatives?

                  No.

                  > Could the Linux S/390 tool chain be made to
                  > work

                  I'm not sure I would want the end result (a load
                  module format different from MVS). Although since
                  I would like to see NetBSD ported, maybe I do want
                  to support a non-MVS executable at some point. I'm
                  thinking that PDOS could be the kernel for FreeBSD.
                  I don't know enough about it to know what is
                  involved in getting that to work.

                  > (I know GAS has a non-standard syntax
                  > but does that matter now)?

                  Actually GAS supports HLASM format too. But that
                  won't help me when I need to execute the OPEN
                  macro. For that to work I think I need an emulated
                  PDS facility like MUSIC/SP has.

                  > Or the z390 free assembler?

                  Not sure what would be involved to get that to work.

                  > In fact did you try getting GCCMVS working on z390

                  No I haven't tried that.

                  > (I guess the answer would be "why would you want to"!)?

                  Because it's there! I would like a free C compiler
                  to exist on every commercially-used platform. I
                  don't know enough about z/390 to know how difficult
                  that would be, whether it qualifies as a commercially
                  used platform without a C compiler (ie would anyone
                  ever be forced to code in assembler or Cobol because
                  a free C compiler was unavailable?), or whether it
                  is in fact z/390's job to support the existing MVS
                  port of GCCMVS rather than the other way around.

                  BFN. Paul.
                • Adrian
                  ... I would be inspired by VM/CMS and modern hypervisors and structure it with some very distinct projects/modules. First a hypervisor or control program –
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 20, 2011
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                    > But mostly I think a proper redesign is required
                    > before moving forward.

                    I would be inspired by VM/CMS and modern hypervisors and structure it with some very distinct projects/modules.

                    First a hypervisor or control program – this provides an environment for multiple guest operating systems to multitask and co-exist. Like VM I guess it would use the START INTERPRETIVE EXECUTION (SIE) instruction to provide this. There is an old paper describing how VM/ESA uses it. Anyway it would not need to provide a perfect emulation for guests (IMO) – that might be too hard. Instead just enough to support guests built to specific architectural rules (which would need to be defined).

                    This OS would provide/need device drivers – do multitasking and allow multiple users in the same was VM/ESA does – connecting a user to their OS guest.

                    The first bit is understanding how to use SIE – which I don't!



                    Then you can have some very simple guest OSs. These need only be single user machines with no security (as the hypervisor above does all that). Can be single threaded or multi-threaded. Don't need memory protecting (but could have). Don't need virtual memory if/as the hypervisor does it. Think CMS.

                    You could have
                    - a MVS flavour – designed to run MVS programs.
                    - a CMS flavour
                    - PDOS itself (to run DOS/WIN32 like programs)
                    - A Posix machine to run POSIX stuff.
                    - You could have services as guest OSs. So assuming the hypervisor provides a mechanism for inter-guest communications you could have a TCP/IP gateway etc. etc.

                    Anyway that's my 2-cents for a structure. Breaking it up into multiple projects/modules.
                  • Adrian
                    ... Is it one or the other? Could standard GCC objects co-exist with GCCMVS ones? Or could the kernel be built one way and support programs the other? Even
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jul 20, 2011
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                      > > Could the Linux S/390 tool chain be made to
                      > > work
                      >
                      > I'm not sure I would want the end result (a load
                      > module format different from MVS).
                      > > (I know GAS has a non-standard syntax
                      > > but does that matter now)?
                      > Actually GAS supports HLASM format too. But that
                      > won't help me when I need to execute the OPEN
                      > macro.

                      Is it one or the other?
                      Could "standard" GCC objects co-exist with GCCMVS ones? Or could the kernel be built one way and support programs the other? Even with GAS you could still [presumably] add the necessary prologs etc. Or could you?
                    • Mike Schwab
                      ... ... TCAM TeleCommunications Access Method was written in mid 60s. After BTAM and before VTAM. ... http://www.z390.org/ is a z/Series
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jul 20, 2011
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                        On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 7:07 AM, kerravon86 <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                        > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Adrian" <adrian@...> wrote:
                        <deleted>
                        > Another one I'd really like to see is
                        > getting emacs working, which (I believe) I've been told
                        > is possible if I use TCAM (whatever that is).
                        >
                        TCAM TeleCommunications Access Method was written in mid 60s. After
                        BTAM and before VTAM.

                        <deleted>
                        >> Or the z390 free assembler?
                        >
                        > Not sure what would be involved to get that to work.
                        >
                        >> In fact did you try getting GCCMVS working on z390
                        >
                        > No I haven't tried that.
                        >
                        >> (I guess the answer would be "why would you want to"!)?
                        >
                        > Because it's there! I would like a free C compiler
                        > to exist on every commercially-used platform. I
                        > don't know enough about z/390 to know how difficult
                        > that would be, whether it qualifies as a commercially
                        > used platform without a C compiler (ie would anyone
                        > ever be forced to code in assembler or Cobol because
                        > a free C compiler was unavailable?), or whether it
                        > is in fact z/390's job to support the existing MVS
                        > port of GCCMVS rather than the other way around.
                        >
                        > BFN.  Paul.
                        >
                        http://www.z390.org/ is a z/Series hardware and operating system
                        emulator. You load the software and run your z/Series program on it.
                        The hardware instructions are executed as is. The z/OS macros
                        compiled into the program as SVCs etc are then executed by the z390
                        replacement for that operating system function. A lot of CICS
                        functions are included, not all system function are included, disk
                        drives are not emulated, uses native files.

                        --
                        Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
                        Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
                      • Greg Price
                        ... Was that before or after QTAM? Cheers, Greg
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jul 20, 2011
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                          On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:35:10 -0500, Mike Schwab wrote:

                          >TCAM TeleCommunications Access Method was written in mid 60s. After
                          >BTAM and before VTAM.

                          Was that before or after QTAM?

                          Cheers,
                          Greg
                        • kerravon86
                          ... Ok, that s a good idea. Keep PDOS simple on the assumption that it will be running under a hypervisor. But how about just assuming that the hypervisor is
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jul 21, 2011
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                            --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Adrian" <adrian@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Then you can have some very simple guest OSs. These
                            > need only be single user machines with no security
                            > (as the hypervisor above does all that). Can be
                            > single threaded or multi-threaded. Don't need memory
                            > protecting (but could have). Don't need virtual memory
                            > if/as the hypervisor does it. Think CMS.

                            Ok, that's a good idea. Keep PDOS simple on the
                            assumption that it will be running under a hypervisor.
                            But how about just assuming that the hypervisor is
                            VM/ESA or whatever, but in reality run it directly
                            on the hardware?

                            > You could have
                            > - a MVS flavour – designed to run MVS programs.
                            > - a CMS flavour
                            > - PDOS itself (to run DOS/WIN32 like programs)

                            What exactly is a DOS/WIN32-like program that could
                            be run on S/390?

                            > - A Posix machine to run POSIX stuff.

                            My plan was to graft POSIX stuff on to the MVS
                            flavour. So e.g. an MVS program might do a
                            dynalloc and open of FRED.C. The MVS flavour
                            would see that, know that the current directory
                            is ABC, and look for a file called ABC/FRED.C
                            in the current VTOC.

                            Is that a problem?

                            BFN. Paul.
                          • kerravon86
                            ... I m not sure I understand that question. What is a GCCMVS object ? Is it some assembler code that has been run through IFOX? I don t know what would be
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jul 21, 2011
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                              --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "Adrian" <adrian@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > > Could the Linux S/390 tool chain be made to
                              > > > work
                              > >
                              > > I'm not sure I would want the end result (a load
                              > > module format different from MVS).
                              > > > (I know GAS has a non-standard syntax
                              > > > but does that matter now)?
                              > > Actually GAS supports HLASM format too. But that
                              > > won't help me when I need to execute the OPEN
                              > > macro.
                              >
                              > Is it one or the other?
                              > Could "standard" GCC objects co-exist with GCCMVS ones?

                              I'm not sure I understand that question. What is
                              a "GCCMVS object"? Is it some assembler code that
                              has been run through IFOX? I don't know what
                              would be involved in making ld understand that
                              format.

                              > Or could the kernel be built one way and support
                              > programs the other?

                              Yes, I think I could continue building PDOS as
                              now (using ifox and iewl), yet make PDOS read
                              executables of a.out or whatever format. But
                              that still assumes that a sensible a.out program
                              is possible to build. It would probably need to
                              be using non-MVS system calls. Possibly via a
                              CVT reference (like I think USS and/or z/Linux does).

                              > Even with GAS you could still [presumably] add
                              > the necessary prologs etc. Or could you?

                              Not sure what prologs you are talking about there.

                              BFN. Paul.
                            • Gerhard Postpischil
                              ... Assuming that wasn t rhetorical - I recall QTAM and TCAM to be contemporaneous. But I never really looked at QTAM; I saw message handling and that didn t
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jul 21, 2011
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                                On 7/21/2011 2:35 AM, Greg Price wrote:
                                > On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:35:10 -0500, Mike Schwab wrote:
                                >
                                >> TCAM TeleCommunications Access Method was written in mid 60s. After
                                >> BTAM and before VTAM.
                                >
                                > Was that before or after QTAM?

                                Assuming that wasn't rhetorical - I recall QTAM and TCAM to be
                                contemporaneous. But I never really looked at QTAM; I saw
                                "message handling" and that didn't do anything for me. But I do
                                have TCAM generated in my current MVS 3.8 system, and I'm
                                planning to get some TTYs hard-wired (Wylbur and TSO use).

                                Gerhard Postpischil
                                Bradford, VT
                              • Ray Mullins
                                I ve always wondered about those two access methods, and the differences between them. I remember reading about them in the OS Full ANS COBOL V4 Programmer s
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jul 21, 2011
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                                  I've always wondered about those two access methods, and the differences between them. I remember reading about them in the OS Full ANS COBOL V4 Programmer's Guide back in college. IIRC there were specific COBOL syntax elements and verbs to support them. I don't think there was BTAM support in COBOL.

                                  When was support for them dropped? I suspect it is when XA was introduced.

                                  Sent via my/Envoyée par mon/Gesandt durch mein/Enviado para mi/meu iPhone

                                  On Jul 21, 2011, at 6:52, Gerhard Postpischil <gerhard@...> wrote:

                                  > On 7/21/2011 2:35 AM, Greg Price wrote:
                                  >> On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:35:10 -0500, Mike Schwab wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >>> TCAM TeleCommunications Access Method was written in mid 60s. After
                                  >>> BTAM and before VTAM.
                                  >>
                                  >> Was that before or after QTAM?
                                  >
                                  > Assuming that wasn't rhetorical - I recall QTAM and TCAM to be
                                  > contemporaneous. But I never really looked at QTAM; I saw
                                  > "message handling" and that didn't do anything for me. But I do
                                  > have TCAM generated in my current MVS 3.8 system, and I'm
                                  > planning to get some TTYs hard-wired (Wylbur and TSO use).
                                  >
                                  > Gerhard Postpischil
                                  > Bradford, VT
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Tony Harminc
                                  ... On z/OS UNIX (USS if you like), kernel calls are handled by a branch to somewhere chained off the CVT. What they all actually *do* is issue a PC
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jul 21, 2011
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                                    On 21 July 2011 08:21, kerravon86 <kerravon86@...> wrote:

                                    > Yes, I think I could continue building PDOS as
                                    > now (using ifox and iewl), yet make PDOS read
                                    > executables of a.out or whatever format. But
                                    > that still assumes that a sensible a.out program
                                    > is possible to build. It would probably need to
                                    > be using non-MVS system calls. Possibly via a
                                    > CVT reference (like I think USS and/or z/Linux does).

                                    On z/OS UNIX (USS if you like), kernel calls are handled by a branch
                                    to somewhere chained off the CVT. What they all actually *do* is issue
                                    a PC instruction to the kernel address space, but using the
                                    CVT->branch table approach means C and other HLL-generated programs
                                    don't have to be able to issue PC instructions inline.

                                    There is no CVT in zLinux, any more than there is a CVT in any other
                                    Linux. Surely you're not making the common mistake of conflating z/OS
                                    and zLinux. They are two unrelated standalone operating systems for
                                    the same hardware, like e.g. Windows for 64-bit Intel and Linux for
                                    64-bit Intel are.

                                    Tony H.
                                  • somitcw
                                    ... There are assembler sub-routines that CoBOL can call for telecommunications. I used mostly BTAM, RTAM ( for JES RJE ), and VTAM. OS/360 had BTAM, QTAM,
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jul 21, 2011
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                                      --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com,
                                      Ray Mullins <catherdersoftware@...> wrote:
                                      > I've always wondered about those two access methods,
                                      >and the differences between them. I remember reading
                                      >about them in the OS Full ANS COBOL V4 Programmer's
                                      >Guide back in college. IIRC there were specific COBOL
                                      >syntax elements and verbs to support them. I don't
                                      >think there was BTAM support in COBOL.

                                      There are assembler sub-routines that CoBOL can
                                      call for telecommunications.

                                      I used mostly BTAM, RTAM ( for JES RJE ), and VTAM.
                                      OS/360 had BTAM, QTAM, RTAM, and TCAM. When virtual
                                      memory was added ( VS1, SVS, and MVS ), QTAM was dropped
                                      and VTAM ( V for Virtual ) was added. VTAM was designed
                                      so that it did not work well in a Virtual environment.
                                      We had a 3MB machine which was plenty large enough for
                                      other stuff that we needed but VTAM's design, that was
                                      to assist debugging, drove pageing nuts. VTAM hung every
                                      night. I spent many nights getting dumps and traces to
                                      convince VTAM to add pacing. Dynamic allocation for a
                                      3705 required me to patch memory after VTAM was started
                                      but before the NCP or PEP was loaded. Early VTAM had
                                      issues. More war stories are available.

                                      I don't remember any complaints about QTAM being
                                      dropped so suspect that most places used BTAM, TCAM,
                                      or their own method with EXCP.

                                      > When was support for them dropped? I suspect it is
                                      >when XA was introduced.
                                      > Sent via my/Envoyée par mon/Gesandt durch mein/Enviado
                                      >para mi/meu iPhone
                                      > On Jul 21, 2011, at 6:52,
                                      >Gerhard Postpischil <gerhard@...> wrote:
                                      >> On 7/21/2011 2:35 AM, Greg Price wrote:
                                      >>> On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 23:35:10 -0500,
                                      >>>Mike Schwab wrote:
                                      >>>> TCAM TeleCommunications Access Method was written in
                                      >>>>mid 60s. After BTAM and before VTAM.
                                      >>> Was that before or after QTAM?
                                      >> Assuming that wasn't rhetorical - I recall QTAM and
                                      >>TCAM to be contemporaneous. But I never really looked
                                      >>at QTAM; I saw "message handling" and that didn't do
                                      >>anything for me. But I do have TCAM generated in my
                                      >>current MVS 3.8 system, and I'm planning to get some
                                      >>TTYs hard-wired (Wylbur and TSO use).
                                      >> Gerhard Postpischil
                                      >> Bradford, VT
                                      >> ------------------------------------
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • kerravon86
                                      ... Ok. ... So does z/Linux use an SVC to request system services? BFN. Paul.
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jul 21, 2011
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                                        --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, Tony Harminc <tharminc@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On 21 July 2011 08:21, kerravon86 <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Yes, I think I could continue building PDOS as
                                        > > now (using ifox and iewl), yet make PDOS read
                                        > > executables of a.out or whatever format. But
                                        > > that still assumes that a sensible a.out program
                                        > > is possible to build. It would probably need to
                                        > > be using non-MVS system calls. Possibly via a
                                        > > CVT reference (like I think USS and/or z/Linux does).
                                        >
                                        > On z/OS UNIX (USS if you like), kernel calls are handled by a branch
                                        > to somewhere chained off the CVT. What they all actually *do* is issue
                                        > a PC instruction to the kernel address space, but using the
                                        > CVT->branch table approach means C and other HLL-generated programs
                                        > don't have to be able to issue PC instructions inline.

                                        Ok.

                                        > There is no CVT in zLinux, any more than there is a CVT in any other
                                        > Linux. Surely you're not making the common mistake of conflating z/OS
                                        > and zLinux. They are two unrelated standalone operating systems for
                                        > the same hardware, like e.g. Windows for 64-bit Intel and Linux for
                                        > 64-bit Intel are.

                                        So does z/Linux use an SVC to request system
                                        services?

                                        BFN. Paul.
                                      • Tony Harminc
                                        ... I think so, but I don t know. There are some people on this list who do, though. It could also use PC, but I suspect it doesn t set up all the necessary
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jul 21, 2011
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                                          On 21 July 2011 16:33, kerravon86 <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                                          > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, Tony Harminc <tharminc@...> wrote:

                                          >> There is no CVT in zLinux, any more than there is a CVT in any other
                                          >> Linux. Surely you're not making the common mistake of conflating z/OS
                                          >> and zLinux. They are two unrelated standalone operating systems for
                                          >> the same hardware, like e.g. Windows for 64-bit Intel and Linux for
                                          >> 64-bit Intel are.
                                          >
                                          > So does z/Linux use an SVC to request system services?

                                          I think so, but I don't know. There are some people on this list who
                                          do, though. It could also use PC, but I suspect it doesn't set up all
                                          the necessary tables for that to work.

                                          Tony H.
                                        • somitcw
                                          ... kerravon86 wrote: - - - first part snipped - - - ... - - - remainder snipped - - - This may help:
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jul 22, 2011
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                                            --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com,
                                            "kerravon86" <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                                            - - - first part snipped - - -
                                            > I'm not entirely sure what it needs now. My
                                            >personal involvement has largely been absent due
                                            >to my switch of attention to Libya et al.
                                            - - - remainder snipped - - -

                                            This may help:

                                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFuqhyGVY2w

                                            The comments are interesting and supportive.
                                            I don't know who the Aussie that they mentioned is.
                                          • kerravon86
                                            ... I couldn t hear any audio except birds chirping. However, I can tell from the comments that she was saying something nice about the Gaddafi dictatorship.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jul 22, 2011
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                                              --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "somitcw" <somitcw@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com,
                                              > "kerravon86" <kerravon86@> wrote:
                                              > - - - first part snipped - - -
                                              > > I'm not entirely sure what it needs now. My
                                              > >personal involvement has largely been absent due
                                              > >to my switch of attention to Libya et al.
                                              > - - - remainder snipped - - -
                                              >
                                              > This may help:
                                              >
                                              > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFuqhyGVY2w

                                              I couldn't hear any audio except birds chirping.
                                              However, I can tell from the comments that she
                                              was saying something nice about the Gaddafi
                                              dictatorship. Always so strange that these
                                              "wonderful" dictators never subject their rule
                                              to a free and fair secret ballot where they
                                              would expect to get 100% of the vote.

                                              > The comments are interesting and supportive.
                                              > I don't know who the Aussie that they mentioned is.

                                              Rupert Murdoch, owner of News Corp, is an ex-Aussie
                                              at least.

                                              BFN. Paul.
                                            • kerravon86
                                              ... Problem occurred on another video too, which made me look at my mixer, and I silenced another window and was able to hear her prattle on about how her
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jul 24, 2011
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                                                --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "kerravon86" <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFuqhyGVY2w
                                                >
                                                > I couldn't hear any audio except birds chirping.

                                                Problem occurred on another video too, which made
                                                me look at my mixer, and I silenced another window
                                                and was able to hear her prattle on about how her
                                                favourite dictator spent other people's money
                                                without their permission. Her excuse for him being
                                                a dictator was that all Middle Eastern countries
                                                were dictators, which is not true - Iraq with 300+
                                                political parties isn't. And she's clearly
                                                brainwashed calling Gaddafi's military coup a
                                                "revolution".

                                                BFN. Paul.
                                              • somitcw
                                                ... Glad you got your sound working. Poor Libyans putting up with 40 years of progress sponsored by their liberator and we in the U.S.A. get our great elected
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jul 24, 2011
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                                                  --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com,
                                                  "kerravon86" <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                                                  > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com,
                                                  >"kerravon86" <kerravon86@> wrote:
                                                  >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFuqhyGVY2w
                                                  >> I couldn't hear any audio except birds chirping.
                                                  > Problem occurred on another video too, which made
                                                  >me look at my mixer, and I silenced another window
                                                  >and was able to hear her prattle on about how her
                                                  >favourite dictator spent other people's money
                                                  >without their permission. Her excuse for him being
                                                  >a dictator was that all Middle Eastern countries
                                                  >were dictators, which is not true - Iraq with 300+
                                                  >political parties isn't. And she's clearly
                                                  >brainwashed calling Gaddafi's military coup a
                                                  >"revolution".
                                                  > BFN. Paul.

                                                  Glad you got your sound working.

                                                  Poor Libyans putting up with 40 years of progress
                                                  sponsored by their liberator and we in the U.S.A.
                                                  get our great elected officials. That was sarcasm.

                                                  Libyans have the highest income of any country in
                                                  Africa. They have an incredible amount of freedoms
                                                  unlike over-regulated nanny governments. Many Libyans
                                                  are requested to have weapons incase some foreign
                                                  power attempts to invade the country, but that is a
                                                  small sacrifice.

                                                  I'm glad that Libyans run Libya.
                                                • kerravon86
                                                  ... If Gaddafi is so great, the Libyans will just vote him back into power, instead of starting a genuine revolution. ... Hardly surprising when you re sitting
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jul 24, 2011
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                                                    --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "somitcw" <somitcw@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Poor Libyans putting up with 40 years of progress
                                                    > sponsored by their liberator and we in the U.S.A.
                                                    > get our great elected officials. That was sarcasm.

                                                    If Gaddafi is so great, the Libyans will just vote
                                                    him back into power, instead of starting a genuine
                                                    revolution.

                                                    > Libyans have the highest income of any country in
                                                    > Africa.

                                                    Hardly surprising when you're sitting on oil.

                                                    > They have an incredible amount of freedoms
                                                    > unlike over-regulated nanny governments. Many Libyans
                                                    > are requested to have weapons incase some foreign
                                                    > power attempts to invade the country, but that is a
                                                    > small sacrifice.
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm glad that Libyans run Libya.

                                                    Libyans don't run Libya. One Libyan does, without
                                                    ever bothering to ask for consent.

                                                    It's always "funny" that dictators never trust "their"
                                                    people to elect them in free and fair elections.

                                                    BFN. Paul.
                                                  • somitcw
                                                    ... It is their government and they are doing a great job. Please leave them alone. If you like elected officials, you have my permission to take all of them
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jul 24, 2011
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                                                      --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com,
                                                      "kerravon86" <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                                                      > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com,
                                                      >"somitcw" <somitcw@> wrote:
                                                      >> Poor Libyans putting up with 40 years of progress
                                                      >>sponsored by their liberator and we in the U.S.A.
                                                      >>get our great elected officials. That was sarcasm.
                                                      > If Gaddafi is so great, the Libyans will just vote
                                                      >him back into power, instead of starting a genuine
                                                      >revolution.
                                                      >> Libyans have the highest income of any country in
                                                      >>Africa.
                                                      > Hardly surprising when you're sitting on oil.
                                                      >> They have an incredible amount of freedoms
                                                      >>unlike over-regulated nanny governments. Many Libyans
                                                      >>are requested to have weapons incase some foreign
                                                      >>power attempts to invade the country, but that is a
                                                      >>small sacrifice.
                                                      >> I'm glad that Libyans run Libya.
                                                      > Libyans don't run Libya. One Libyan does, without
                                                      >ever bothering to ask for consent.
                                                      > It's always "funny" that dictators never trust "their"
                                                      >people to elect them in free and fair elections.
                                                      > BFN. Paul.

                                                      It is their government and they are doing a great job.
                                                      Please leave them alone.

                                                      If you like elected officials, you have my permission
                                                      to take all of them that we have in Washington D.C. and
                                                      the state capitals.
                                                    • Rocky
                                                      Paul e in the U.S.A. ... If Gaddafi is so great, the Libyans will just vote him back into power, instead of starting a genuine revolution. ... Hardly
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jul 25, 2011
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                                                        Paul

                                                         

                                                        e in the U.S.A.

                                                        > get our great elected officials. That was sarcasm.

                                                        If Gaddafi is so great, the Libyans will just vote
                                                        him back into power, instead of starting a genuine
                                                        revolution.

                                                        > Libyans have the highest income of any country in
                                                        > Africa .

                                                        Hardly surprising when you're sitting on oil.

                                                        > They have an incredible amount of freedoms
                                                        > unlike over-regulated nanny governments. Many Libyans
                                                        > are requested to have weapons incase some foreign
                                                        > power attempts to invade the country, but that is a
                                                        > small sacrifice.
                                                        >
                                                        > I'm glad that Libyans run Libya .

                                                        Libyans don't run Libya . One Libyan does, without
                                                        ever bothering to ask for consent.

                                                        It's always "funny" that dictators never trust "their"
                                                        people to elect them in free and fair elections.

                                                        BFN. Paul.

                                                      • kerravon86
                                                        ... I ll reply here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-politics/ BFN. Paul.
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jul 25, 2011
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                                                          --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "somitcw" <somitcw@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > It's always "funny" that dictators never trust "their"
                                                          > >people to elect them in free and fair elections.
                                                          >
                                                          > It is their government and they are doing a great job.
                                                          > Please leave them alone.

                                                          I'll reply here:

                                                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-politics/

                                                          BFN. Paul.
                                                        • kerravon86
                                                          ... I found documentation for this here: http://www.watsonwalker.com/PR040817.pdf Getting the API Address (Method 3) * SEE APPENDIX A OF ASSEMBLER CALLABLE
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Mar 29, 2012
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                                                            --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, Tony Harminc <tharminc@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > On z/OS UNIX (USS if you like), kernel calls are handled by a branch
                                                            > to somewhere chained off the CVT. What they all actually *do* is issue
                                                            > a PC instruction to the kernel address space, but using the
                                                            > CVT->branch table approach means C and other HLL-generated programs
                                                            > don't have to be able to issue PC instructions inline.

                                                            I found documentation for this here:

                                                            http://www.watsonwalker.com/PR040817.pdf

                                                            Getting the API Address (Method 3)
                                                            * SEE APPENDIX A OF ASSEMBLER CALLABLE SERVICES
                                                            * REFERENCE MANUAL FOR OFFSETS
                                                            L R15,X'10' A(CVT)
                                                            L R15,544(R15) A(CSRTABLE)
                                                            L R15,24(R15) CSR SLOTS FOR USS
                                                            L R15,272(R15) ADDRESS OF BPX1GPG SERVICE
                                                            CALL (15), CALL THIS ADDRESS
                                                            (RESULT), PUT RESULT HERE
                                                            VL INDICATE LAST PARAMETER



                                                            Getting the API Address (Method 2)
                                                            * REMEMBER TO INCLUDE SYS1.CSSLIB IN LINKAGE STEP
                                                            L R15,=V(BPX1GPP) ADDRESS OF LINKAGE STUB
                                                            CALL (15), CALL THIS ADDRESS
                                                            (RESULT), PUT RESULT HERE
                                                            VL INDICATE LAST PARAMETER


                                                            And I see no reason not to make PDOS behave the
                                                            same way.

                                                            I'm thinking of porting the rest of the GNU
                                                            toolchain (ie "as" and "ld" - compiling them
                                                            in EBCDIC) and producing a.out files which
                                                            PDOS will also recognize.

                                                            What format are USS binaries?

                                                            BFN. Paul.
                                                          • kerravon86
                                                            ... This should be sufficient to allow it to be written in C instead of assembler, or to allow as to assemble the assembler. But what are registers like at
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Mar 29, 2012
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                                                              --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, "kerravon86" <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Getting the API Address (Method 3)
                                                              > * SEE APPENDIX A OF ASSEMBLER CALLABLE SERVICES
                                                              > * REFERENCE MANUAL FOR OFFSETS
                                                              > L R15,X'10' A(CVT)
                                                              > L R15,544(R15) A(CSRTABLE)
                                                              > L R15,24(R15) CSR SLOTS FOR USS
                                                              > L R15,272(R15) ADDRESS OF BPX1GPG SERVICE
                                                              > CALL (15), CALL THIS ADDRESS
                                                              > (RESULT), PUT RESULT HERE
                                                              > VL INDICATE LAST PARAMETER

                                                              This should be sufficient to allow it to be written
                                                              in C instead of assembler, or to allow "as" to
                                                              assemble the assembler.

                                                              But what are registers like at entry to a USS
                                                              executable? Can the entry code be written in C or
                                                              bland (no macros) assembler too?

                                                              Thanks. Paul.
                                                            • Tony Harminc
                                                              ... And as she says, it s fully documented in the mainstream IBM book. ... What happened to Method 1...? Anyway, you don t want to muck with Method 2, because
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Mar 29, 2012
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                                                                On 29 March 2012 09:52, kerravon86 <kerravon86@...> wrote:
                                                                > --- In hercules-os380@yahoogroups.com, Tony Harminc <tharminc@...> wrote:
                                                                >>
                                                                >> On z/OS UNIX (USS if you like), kernel calls are handled by a branch
                                                                >> to somewhere chained off the CVT. What they all actually *do* is issue
                                                                >> a PC instruction to the kernel address space, but using the
                                                                >> CVT->branch table approach means C and other HLL-generated programs
                                                                >> don't have to be able to issue PC instructions inline.
                                                                >
                                                                > I found documentation for this here:
                                                                >
                                                                > http://www.watsonwalker.com/PR040817.pdf

                                                                And as she says, it's fully documented in the mainstream IBM book.

                                                                > Getting the API Address (Method 3)
                                                                > * SEE APPENDIX A OF ASSEMBLER CALLABLE SERVICES
                                                                > * REFERENCE MANUAL FOR OFFSETS
                                                                > L R15,X'10' A(CVT)
                                                                > L R15,544(R15) A(CSRTABLE)
                                                                > L R15,24(R15) CSR SLOTS FOR USS
                                                                > L R15,272(R15) ADDRESS OF BPX1GPG SERVICE
                                                                > CALL (15), CALL THIS ADDRESS
                                                                > (RESULT), PUT RESULT HERE
                                                                > VL INDICATE LAST PARAMETER

                                                                > Getting the API Address (Method 2)
                                                                > * REMEMBER TO INCLUDE SYS1.CSSLIB IN LINKAGE STEP
                                                                > L R15,=V(BPX1GPP) ADDRESS OF LINKAGE STUB
                                                                > CALL (15), CALL THIS ADDRESS
                                                                > (RESULT), PUT RESULT HERE
                                                                > VL INDICATE LAST PARAMETER

                                                                What happened to Method 1...?

                                                                Anyway, you don't want to muck with Method 2, because it requires a
                                                                separate stub for each service. Why would you want to write, assemble,
                                                                and link a couple of hundred tiny programs for no reason?

                                                                > And I see no reason not to make PDOS behave the same way.

                                                                As I suggested long ago for porting UNIX support to MVS 3.8. There are
                                                                other CSR tables for things like RACF and Unicode services.

                                                                > I'm thinking of porting the rest of the GNU
                                                                > toolchain (ie "as" and "ld" - compiling them
                                                                > in EBCDIC) and producing a.out files which
                                                                > PDOS will also recognize.

                                                                IIRC a.out is a UNIXism for an object deck?

                                                                > What format are USS binaries?

                                                                Heh - they are in an undocumented format... Yeah, who but IBM could
                                                                have a secret executable file format? They are Program Objects (POs),
                                                                and although the format is not documented, it has been reverse
                                                                engineered by various people to some extent. IBM has changed it
                                                                seveeral times, and it's now up to I think what they call PM6 or so.

                                                                By the way, there is no such thing as a USS binary. These POs are
                                                                identical whether they live in a PDSE member or in a UNIX file. As IBM
                                                                used to like to say, "there is no wall" (between MVS and UNIX).

                                                                Tony H.
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