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blood tests on donors

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  • Debora
    Does anyone know how often one must do blood tests to prove they are free of the Hepatitises, HIV, etc? Someone posted on another forum what they test for in
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 9, 2011
      Does anyone know how often one must do blood tests to prove they are free of the Hepatitises, HIV, etc? Someone posted on another forum what they test for in organ transplants:


      They test for: Hep B, Hep C, HIV 1+2, Human T-Lymphotrophic Virus Types I & II,
      T. cruzi (Chagas Disease), West Nile Virus, Chlamydia trachomatis, N. gonorrhea,
      Cytomegalovirus (CMV), Treponema pallidum (Syphilis).l

      I've read a statistic that most people are carriers of the various herpes viruses, but only some of us have symptoms. Would it be prudent to test for these? Is there a titer that is over a certain number that would render a donor ineligible for donating blood, and hence, probably should not be a resevoir donor?

      I know that hookworms and whipworms are probably not vectors for blood borne pathogens, but those distributing worms or the DIY movement should probably have multiple blood tests over time before sharing organisms to assure people just in case.

      It would be awful if someone came down with something like hepatitis and blamed the worms and then got unwanted publicity; blood tests on both the donor and receiver before treatment would prove that the worms had nothing to do with it.

      Would one year be sufficient, if the donor tested twice? Or does it take longer to prove lack of Hep? What about the other viral diseases? What about mono?

      I think everyone should be as safe as possible, since we don't want to get this therapy shut down by something easily prevented.
    • Alberto
      Wise words, Debora,and thanks for your info about counting worms.When my wife started this treatment the possibility of HW acting as vectors was one of my main
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 9, 2011
        Wise words, Debora,and thanks for your info about counting worms.When my wife started this treatment the possibility of HW acting as vectors was one of my main concerns; that is why I wanted to enter the private forum to check if anybody there have had a bad experience. None had. Then, when Jasper relinquished his control of this particular and " public"  group to independent supervisors, I am pretty certain that, if there had been any " mishap", it would have immediately been published.None had either. I am confident  that our helminthic "donors" keep a weary eye on their health status and do all the periodic tests and analysis on themselves  to avoid any unsuspected infection been transmited ; I trust as well their knowledge about how to "clean"  the worms of any unwelcome baggage. In any case, I would be afraid of trying other "suppliers" however cheap they would be ;  but I understand as well that there are people out there that are desperate to start this treatment and really have not got 3000$ to spare. Alberto--- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com, "Debora" <deborawade37@...> wrote:>> Does anyone know how often one must do blood tests to prove they are free of the Hepatitises, HIV, etc?  Someone posted on another forum what they test for in organ transplants:> > > They test for: Hep B, Hep C, HIV 1+2, Human T-Lymphotrophic Virus Types I & II,> T. cruzi (Chagas Disease), West Nile Virus, Chlamydia trachomatis, N. gonorrhea,> Cytomegalovirus (CMV), Treponema pallidum (Syphilis).l> > I've read a statistic that most people are carriers of the various herpes viruses, but only some of us have symptoms.  Would it be prudent to test for these?  Is there a titer that is over a certain number that would render a donor ineligible for donating blood, and hence, probably should not be a resevoir donor?  > > I know that hookworms and whipworms are probably not vectors for blood borne pathogens, but those distributing worms or the DIY movement should probably have multiple blood tests over time before sharing organisms to assure people just in case.> > It would be awful if someone came down with something like hepatitis and blamed the worms and then got unwanted publicity; blood tests on both the donor and receiver before treatment would prove that the worms had nothing to do with it.> > Would one year be sufficient, if the donor tested twice?  Or does it take longer to prove lack of Hep?  What about the other viral diseases?  What about mono?> > I think everyone should be as safe as possible, since we don't want to get this therapy shut down by something easily prevented.>
      • marc_dellerba
        While this is an important topic, and was a major topic of discussion when AIT first started, I am afraid to say I am not surprised by the rather alarmist tone
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 9, 2011
          While this is an important topic, and was a major topic of discussion when AIT first started, I am afraid to say I am not surprised by the rather alarmist tone of Debora's post.

          When we first conceived the idea of AIT based on Jaspers results with his asthma, the only question about the viability of supplying helminths was if this was safe to do. The amount of work and research that went into answering that simple but fundamentally important question was huge. The files section contains the most comprehensive meta analysis that has been undertaken on the possibility of helminths acting as vectors for other pathogens.

          Having this analysis as reassurance and despite having this reassurance we then spent a huge amount of time and effort in developing isolation techniques that assured sterility of the helminths without actually killing the helminths.

          In addition to all this there is the rather obvious fact that many eminent institutions around the world are conducting clinical trials with exactly the same helminths we supply, it is inconceivable that an American, British or Australian University/medical school would be given ethical approval for these studies if there were any chance of passing on viruses in such studies. Further empirical evidence is the fact that after three years of supplying helminths there has not been a single incidence of anyone reporting the development of any type of viral or similar infection, if this were to happen even once there is no possibility that AIT could continue.

          Debora you have put yourself forward as a spokesperson for helminthic therapy, but you seem to consistently to discuss topics associated with helminths in a way that is alarmist and either suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of existing information or a lack of knowledge about available information. An "academic spokesperson" is normally recognised by their peers based on their contribution, understanding and intelligent interpretation of the available information within a given field, I would be very happy to see you demonstrate any of these qualities.

          Your rehashing of a topic that all the available evidence indicates is not actually an issue with helminthic therapy, once again distracts from the more important issues that should be being discussed.

          Marc


          --- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com, "Alberto" <albertorivas100@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wise words, Debora,and thanks for your info about counting worms.When my wife started this treatment the possibility of HW acting as vectors was one of my main concerns; that is why I wanted to enter the private forum to check if anybody there have had a bad experience. None had. Then, when Jasper relinquished his control of this particular and " public"  group to independent supervisors, I am pretty certain that, if there had been any " mishap", it would have immediately been published.None had either. I am confident  that our helminthic "donors" keep a weary eye on their health status and do all the periodic tests and analysis on themselves  to avoid any unsuspected infection been transmited ; I trust as well their knowledge about how to "clean"  the worms of any unwelcome baggage. In any case, I would be afraid of trying other "suppliers" however cheap they would be ;  but I understand as well that there are people out there that are desperate to start this treatment and really have not got 3000$ to spare. Alberto--- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com, "Debora" <deborawade37@> wrote:>> Does anyone know how often one must do blood tests to prove they are free of the Hepatitises, HIV, etc?  Someone posted on another forum what they test for in organ transplants:> > > They test for: Hep B, Hep C, HIV 1+2, Human T-Lymphotrophic Virus Types I & II,> T. cruzi (Chagas Disease), West Nile Virus, Chlamydia trachomatis, N. gonorrhea,> Cytomegalovirus (CMV), Treponema pallidum (Syphilis).l> > I've read a statistic that most people are carriers of the various herpes viruses, but only some of us have symptoms.  Would it be prudent to test for these?  Is there a titer that is over a certain number that would render a donor ineligible for donating blood, and hence, probably should not be a resevoir donor?  > > I know that hookworms and whipworms are probably not vectors for blood borne pathogens, but those distributing worms or the DIY movement should probably have multiple blood tests over time before sharing organisms to assure people just in case.> > It would be awful if someone came down with something like hepatitis and blamed the worms and then got unwanted publicity; blood tests on both the donor and receiver before treatment would prove that the worms had nothing to do with it.> > Would one year be sufficient, if the donor tested twice?  Or does it take longer to prove lack of Hep?  What about the other viral diseases?  What about mono?> > I think everyone should be as safe as possible, since we don't want to get this therapy shut down by something easily prevented.>
          >
        • jorge25000
          I interpreted Debra s original note as trying to ensure the research on helminthic therapy continues and that it continues to be available to patients by
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 10, 2011
            I interpreted Debra's original note as trying to ensure the research on helminthic therapy continues and that it continues to be available to patients by minimizing the risk of any negative incidents rathern than being alarmist but I can see how someone unfamiliar with the topic could be alarmed by the message however but I think that's best solved by linking to the available science as I tried to do in my message. I'm a technology consultant who focuses on collaboration so this is something we see often and is a symptom the larger issue with forums in general in that questions are often asked many times after they already been addressed. That's a problem that you have to address with better technology & user norms so we'll have to do our best for the time being and give each other the benefit of the doubt.

            For now may I suggest the following before posting a question:
            1) if you haven't read the FAQ posted in the Files page do so ASAP as it addresses all of the common questions: http://bit.ly/h3Uxns
            2) do a quick keyword search of the group for previous threads before posting & skim to see if your questions has been addressed before
            3) post away w/ your question, referencing any relevant info in the FAQ of previous threads as applicable


            In the long run I think our best solution to this problem is to implement a good Q&A solution that tries to automatically answer your question based on the existing knowledge base before allowing you to post to the group like you've probably seen on some customer support websites. Those tools are still maturing so in the meanwhile I think we could all benefit and prevent many misunderstandings from trying to answer our own questions from the available information before posting to the public group. Worse case is that we all become more knowledgeable on the research which will help the community at large :-)

            If you want to learn more after reading the FAQ some of the best resources I've seen include:
            * AIT's website: http://autoimmunetherapies.com/
            * HT Wiki: http://opensourcehelminththerapy.org
            * "Links" section of this group: http://bit.ly/dWZTyM
            * For those so inclined you can find many of the full text scientific articles in the "Files" section of this group (http://bit.ly/e0ZZJH) or via this Google Doc aggregated by HelminthicTherapy (http://goo.gl/CFsY)

            I've also been keeping track of any good Q&A-like solutions if anyone with technical skills wants to start looking into that long-term solution: http://www.delicious.com/acallan1/Q%26A





            --- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com, "marc_dellerba" <marc@...> wrote:
            >
            > While this is an important topic, and was a major topic of discussion when AIT first started, I am afraid to say I am not surprised by the rather alarmist tone of Debora's post.
            >
            > When we first conceived the idea of AIT based on Jaspers results with his asthma, the only question about the viability of supplying helminths was if this was safe to do. The amount of work and research that went into answering that simple but fundamentally important question was huge. The files section contains the most comprehensive meta analysis that has been undertaken on the possibility of helminths acting as vectors for other pathogens.
            >
            > Having this analysis as reassurance and despite having this reassurance we then spent a huge amount of time and effort in developing isolation techniques that assured sterility of the helminths without actually killing the helminths.
            >
            > In addition to all this there is the rather obvious fact that many eminent institutions around the world are conducting clinical trials with exactly the same helminths we supply, it is inconceivable that an American, British or Australian University/medical school would be given ethical approval for these studies if there were any chance of passing on viruses in such studies. Further empirical evidence is the fact that after three years of supplying helminths there has not been a single incidence of anyone reporting the development of any type of viral or similar infection, if this were to happen even once there is no possibility that AIT could continue.
            >
            > Debora you have put yourself forward as a spokesperson for helminthic therapy, but you seem to consistently to discuss topics associated with helminths in a way that is alarmist and either suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of existing information or a lack of knowledge about available information. An "academic spokesperson" is normally recognised by their peers based on their contribution, understanding and intelligent interpretation of the available information within a given field, I would be very happy to see you demonstrate any of these qualities.
            >
            > Your rehashing of a topic that all the available evidence indicates is not actually an issue with helminthic therapy, once again distracts from the more important issues that should be being discussed.
            >
            > Marc
            >
            >
            > --- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com, "Alberto" <albertorivas100@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Wise words, Debora,and thanks for your info about counting worms.When my wife started this treatment the possibility of HW acting as vectors was one of my main concerns; that is why I wanted to enter the private forum to check if anybody there have had a bad experience. None had. Then, when Jasper relinquished his control of this particular and " public"  group to independent supervisors, I am pretty certain that, if there had been any " mishap", it would have immediately been published.None had either. I am confident  that our helminthic "donors" keep a weary eye on their health status and do all the periodic tests and analysis on themselves  to avoid any unsuspected infection been transmited ; I trust as well their knowledge about how to "clean"  the worms of any unwelcome baggage. In any case, I would be afraid of trying other "suppliers" however cheap they would be ;  but I understand as well that there are people out there that are desperate to start this treatment and really have not got 3000$ to spare. Alberto--- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com, "Debora" <deborawade37@> wrote:>> Does anyone know how often one must do blood tests to prove they are free of the Hepatitises, HIV, etc?  Someone posted on another forum what they test for in organ transplants:> > > They test for: Hep B, Hep C, HIV 1+2, Human T-Lymphotrophic Virus Types I & II,> T. cruzi (Chagas Disease), West Nile Virus, Chlamydia trachomatis, N. gonorrhea,> Cytomegalovirus (CMV), Treponema pallidum (Syphilis).l> > I've read a statistic that most people are carriers of the various herpes viruses, but only some of us have symptoms.  Would it be prudent to test for these?  Is there a titer that is over a certain number that would render a donor ineligible for donating blood, and hence, probably should not be a resevoir donor?  > > I know that hookworms and whipworms are probably not vectors for blood borne pathogens, but those distributing worms or the DIY movement should probably have multiple blood tests over time before sharing organisms to assure people just in case.> > It would be awful if someone came down with something like hepatitis and blamed the worms and then got unwanted publicity; blood tests on both the donor and receiver before treatment would prove that the worms had nothing to do with it.> > Would one year be sufficient, if the donor tested twice?  Or does it take longer to prove lack of Hep?  What about the other viral diseases?  What about mono?> > I think everyone should be as safe as possible, since we don't want to get this therapy shut down by something easily prevented.>
            > >
            >
          • Debora Wade
            I d prefer it if you didn t insult me on this board for asking a question that I was directing both to the commercial providers of worms and the people DIY ing
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 12, 2011
              I'd prefer it if you didn't insult me on this board for asking a question that I was directing both to the commercial providers of worms and the people DIY ing it.  I think it's just common sense that people should be taking blood tests to prove lack of communicable diseases, even if nematodes are not thought to pass these pathogens, if only for their own legal protection.  Interestingly, there has been a good discussion about what tests are thought of as appropriate on the incubatinghookworms yahoo site.  But here, I am called alarmist for raising this issue.

              An issue that is obviously important to many of your former, current, and potential customers.  

              For the sake of professionalism, I would limit the attacks against people's character and deal directly with the issues brought up instead.

              Debora

              ,From: marc_dellerba <marc@...>
              To: helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 6:17:05 PM
              Subject: [helminthictherapy] Re: blood tests on donors DO NOT APPROVE UNTIL YOU HAVE READ MY EMAIL.

               

              While this is an important topic, and was a major topic of discussion when AIT first started, I am afraid to say I am not surprised by the rather alarmist tone of Debora's post.

              When we first conceived the idea of AIT based on Jaspers results with his asthma, the only question about the viability of supplying helminths was if this was safe to do. The amount of work and research that went into answering that simple but fundamentally important question was huge. The files section contains the most comprehensive meta analysis that has been undertaken on the possibility of helminths acting as vectors for other pathogens.

              Having this analysis as reassurance and despite having this reassurance we then spent a huge amount of time and effort in developing isolation techniques that assured sterility of the helminths without actually killing the helminths.

              In addition to all this there is the rather obvious fact that many eminent institutions around the world are conducting clinical trials with exactly the same helminths we supply, it is inconceivable that an American, British or Australian University/medical school would be given ethical approval for these studies if there were any chance of passing on viruses in such studies. Further empirical evidence is the fact that after three years of supplying helminths there has not been a single incidence of anyone reporting the development of any type of viral or similar infection, if this were to happen even once there is no possibility that AIT could continue.

              Debora you have put yourself forward as a spokesperson for helminthic therapy, but you seem to consistently to discuss topics associated with helminths in a way that is alarmist and either suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of existing information or a lack of knowledge about available information. An "academic spokesperson" is normally recognised by their peers based on their contribution, understanding and intelligent interpretation of the available information within a given field, I would be very happy to see you demonstrate any of these qualities.

              Your rehashing of a topic that all the available evidence indicates is not actually an issue with helminthic therapy, once again distracts from the more important issues that should be being discussed.

              Marc

              --- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com, "Alberto" <albertorivas100@...> wrote:
              >
              > Wise words, Debora,and thanks for your info about counting worms.When my wife started this treatment the possibility of HW acting as vectors was one of my main concerns; that is why I wanted to enter the private forum to check if anybody there have had a bad experience. None had. Then, when Jasper relinquished his control of this particular and " public"  group to independent supervisors, I am pretty certain that, if there had been any " mishap", it would have immediately been published.None had either. I am confident  that our helminthic "donors" keep a weary eye on their health status and do all the periodic tests and analysis on themselves  to avoid any unsuspected infection been transmited ; I trust as well their knowledge about how to "clean"  the worms of any unwelcome baggage. In any case, I would be afraid of trying other "suppliers" however cheap they would be ;  but I understand as well that there are people out there that are desperate to start this treatment and really have not got 3000$ to spare. Alberto--- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com, "Debora" <deborawade37@> wrote:>> Does anyone know how often one must do blood tests to prove they are free of the Hepatitises, HIV, etc?  Someone posted on another forum what they test for in organ transplants:> > > They test for: Hep B, Hep C, HIV 1+2, Human T-Lymphotrophic Virus Types I & II,> T. cruzi (Chagas Disease), West Nile Virus, Chlamydia trachomatis, N. gonorrhea,> Cytomegalovirus (CMV), Treponema pallidum (Syphilis).l> > I've read a statistic that most people are carriers of the various herpes viruses, but only some of us have symptoms.  Would it be prudent to test for these?  Is there a titer that is over a certain number that would render a donor ineligible for donating blood, and hence, probably should not be a resevoir donor?  > > I know that hookworms and whipworms are probably not vectors for blood borne pathogens, but those distributing worms or the DIY movement should probably have multiple blood tests over time before sharing organisms to assure people just in case.> > It would be awful if someone came down with something like hepatitis and blamed the worms and then got unwanted publicity; blood tests on both the donor and receiver before treatment would prove that the worms had nothing to do with it.> > Would one year be sufficient, if the donor tested twice?  Or does it take longer to prove lack of Hep?  What about the other viral diseases?  What about mono?> > I think everyone should be as safe as possible, since we don't want to get this therapy shut down by something easily prevented.>
              >


            • marc_dellerba
              Debora, I apologise if you took what I said as an insult, I was simply trying to make clear observations about a subject that has been discussed extensively
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 12, 2011
                Debora, I apologise if you took what I said as an insult, I was simply trying to make clear observations about a subject that has been discussed extensively before, is well defined and well understood, and I felt the topic was simply being discussed in a confused and obviously unintentionally alarmist manner.

                Debora please accept my sincere apology if you feel that my post was primarily directed at you personally and not the topic.The topic is important and any discussion should have included clearly the available knowledge on this subject, which is highly reassuring.

                Marc


                --- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com, Debora Wade <deborawade37@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'd prefer it if you didn't insult me on this board for asking a question that I
                > was directing both to the commercial providers of worms and the people DIY ing
                > it. I think it's just common sense that people should be taking blood tests to
                > prove lack of communicable diseases, even if nematodes are not thought to pass
                > these pathogens, if only for their own legal protection. Interestingly, there
                > has been a good discussion about what tests are thought of as appropriate on the
                > incubatinghookworms yahoo site. But here, I am called alarmist for raising this
                > issue.
                >
                > An issue that is obviously important to many of your former, current, and
                > potential customers.
                >
                >
                > For the sake of professionalism, I would limit the attacks against people's
                > character and deal directly with the issues brought up instead.
                >
                > Debora
                >
                > ,From: marc_dellerba <marc@...>
                >
                > To: helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sun, January 9, 2011 6:17:05 PM
                > Subject: [helminthictherapy] Re: blood tests on donors DO NOT APPROVE UNTIL YOU
                > HAVE READ MY EMAIL.
                >
                >
                > While this is an important topic, and was a major topic of discussion when AIT
                > first started, I am afraid to say I am not surprised by the rather alarmist tone
                > of Debora's post.
                >
                >
                > When we first conceived the idea of AIT based on Jaspers results with his
                > asthma, the only question about the viability of supplying helminths was if this
                > was safe to do. The amount of work and research that went into answering that
                > simple but fundamentally important question was huge. The files section contains
                > the most comprehensive meta analysis that has been undertaken on the possibility
                > of helminths acting as vectors for other pathogens.
                >
                >
                > Having this analysis as reassurance and despite having this reassurance we then
                > spent a huge amount of time and effort in developing isolation techniques that
                > assured sterility of the helminths without actually killing the helminths.
                >
                >
                > In addition to all this there is the rather obvious fact that many eminent
                > institutions around the world are conducting clinical trials with exactly the
                > same helminths we supply, it is inconceivable that an American, British or
                > Australian University/medical school would be given ethical approval for these
                > studies if there were any chance of passing on viruses in such studies. Further
                > empirical evidence is the fact that after three years of supplying helminths
                > there has not been a single incidence of anyone reporting the development of any
                > type of viral or similar infection, if this were to happen even once there is no
                > possibility that AIT could continue.
                >
                > Debora you have put yourself forward as a spokesperson for helminthic therapy,
                > but you seem to consistently to discuss topics associated with helminths in a
                > way that is alarmist and either suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of
                > existing information or a lack of knowledge about available information. An
                > "academic spokesperson" is normally recognised by their peers based on their
                > contribution, understanding and intelligent interpretation of the available
                > information within a given field, I would be very happy to see you demonstrate
                > any of these qualities.
                >
                >
                > Your rehashing of a topic that all the available evidence indicates is not
                > actually an issue with helminthic therapy, once again distracts from the more
                > important issues that should be being discussed.
                >
                > Marc
                >
                > --- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com, "Alberto" <albertorivas100@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Wise words, Debora,and thanks for your info about counting worms.When my wife
                > >started this treatment the possibility of HW acting as vectors was one of my
                > >main concerns; that is why I wanted to enter the private forum to check if
                > >anybody there have had a bad experience. None had. Then, when Jasper
                > >relinquished his control of this particular and " public" group to independent
                > >supervisors, I am pretty certain that, if there had been any " mishap", it would
                > >have immediately been published.None had either. I am confident that our
                > >helminthic "donors" keep a weary eye on their health status and do all the
                > >periodic tests and analysis on themselves to avoid any unsuspected infection
                > >been transmited ; I trust as well their knowledge about how to "clean" the
                > >worms of any unwelcome baggage. In any case, I would be afraid of trying other
                > >"suppliers" however cheap they would be ; but I understand as well that there
                > >are people out there that are desperate to start this treatment and really have
                > >not got 3000$ to spare. Alberto--- In helminthictherapy@yahoogroups.com,
                > >"Debora" <deborawade37@> wrote:>> Does anyone know how often one must do blood
                > >tests to prove they are free of the Hepatitises, HIV, etc? Someone posted on
                > >another forum what they test for in organ transplants:> > > They test for: Hep
                > >B, Hep C, HIV 1+2, Human T-Lymphotrophic Virus Types I & II,> T. cruzi (Chagas
                > >Disease), West Nile Virus, Chlamydia trachomatis, N. gonorrhea,> Cytomegalovirus
                > >(CMV), Treponema pallidum (Syphilis).l> > I've read a statistic that most people
                > >are carriers of the various herpes viruses, but only some of us have symptoms.
                > >Would it be prudent to test for these? Is there a titer that is over a certain
                > >number that would render a donor ineligible for donating blood, and hence,
                > >probably should not be a resevoir donor? > > I know that hookworms and
                > >whipworms are probably not vectors for blood borne pathogens, but those
                > >distributing worms or the DIY movement should probably have multiple blood tests
                > >over time before sharing organisms to assure people just in case.> > It would be
                > >awful if someone came down with something like hepatitis and blamed the worms
                > >and then got unwanted publicity; blood tests on both the donor and receiver
                > >before treatment would prove that the worms had nothing to do with it.> > Would
                > >one year be sufficient, if the donor tested twice? Or does it take longer to
                > >prove lack of Hep? What about the other viral diseases? What about mono?> > I
                > >think everyone should be as safe as possible, since we don't want to get this
                > >therapy shut down by something easily prevented.>
                > >
                >
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