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Re: [hegel] Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit Preface # 29

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  • Beat Greuter
    ... . Bob, In my opinion your interpreaton of the paragraph 29 of the PhdG does only partly refer to the essential points. There are four important insights
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 4, 2011
      Am 04.04.2011 01:29, Robert Fanelli writes:

      > �
      >
      > Good news folks. I will no longer include the translated paragraph
      > since most of you are not reading it anyway. If you wish to read the
      > translation, let me know and I will send it to you. I would be happy
      > if you got something out of my comments.
      >
      > Preface # 29 Comments:
      >
      > Hegel says, �??the goal to be reached is the mind's insight into what
      > knowing is.�?? Cultural forms or cultural structures are embedded in
      > the mind, as forms of being. The goal is not just to know but to know
      > what knowing is in all its elements. There are many details and
      > pathways to this goal. There is a universal sense of this development,
      > which Hegel calls Weltgeist and which is simply world history, which
      > has great or heavy human substance to it. The individual mind can take
      > up no lighter toil than this history itself. We are a reflection of
      > World History. Human reason on an individual basis has, through
      > reflection, overcome immediacy and has developed various forms and
      > structures as a form of being and thus the implicit becomes explicit,
      > or so Hegel claims.
      >
      > It is spirit which must know what knowledge is. Geist refers to the
      > power of the mind, a power which is a faculty of the human mind. The
      > hard part will be to pause in the moments of insightfulness and grasp
      > the otherness of the world, and to structure the shapes of things
      > handed down to us. We must reduce all things to �??simple
      > determinations of thought.�?? For Hegel�??s goal is to present Thought
      > and Being itself as One and thus as a reality which the mind develops
      > as ultimate structures of all reality; that is, the reality of the
      > universe and the absolute reality of the mind (Geist).
      >
      > Hegel�??s phenomenological science is the science of knowing. We need
      > to distinguish between world history, history of philosophy, history
      > of absolute Spirit, and the history of culture. So goes the Phenomenology.
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Bob Fanelli
      >
      .


      Bob,

      In my opinion your interpreaton of the paragraph 29 of the PhdG does
      only partly refer to the essential points. There are four important
      insights here Hegel wants to show us:

      (1) Human knowledge is the comprehension of spirit becoming self-aware
      which realizes (determines) itself in necessary individual historical
      shapes. There is no absolute knowledge, absolute truth, above or beyond
      these historical shapes as the abstract understanding, the absolute
      reason, believes - be it scientific or theological.

      (2) These shapes have therefore to be taken in their absoluteness, as a
      whole, that is, in their achieved subject-object mediation, their own
      determination, their achieved own knowledge of itself.

      (3) Knowing what knowledge is means to comprehend the inherent
      dialectical development of these shapes since it shows the necessary
      steps of mediating activities in our world relationship. With this what
      first only is 'Dasein' then thought-in-itself - only substance of the
      individual - becomes thought-for-the-individual.

      (4) The comprehension of the historical disclosure of the mediation of
      spirit with itself can only be seen retrospectively after the shapes of
      spirit have become moments and therefore have lost their absoluteness as
      pure substance (content) of the individual, after "....... the content
      is already the actuality reduced to a possiblility, its immediacy
      overcome." (translated by A.V. Miller). The overcoming of immediacy
      requires a long passage of time, both, historically (in-itself) and
      individually (in-and-for-itself), and is what Hegel calls elsewhere
      developing freedom.

      Regards,
      Beat Greuter


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Alan Ponikvar
      Hi Beat, I think paragraph 29 is a fateful paragraph as it is where Hegel indicates that the initiation process mentioned in paragraph 27 is to involve a labor
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 4, 2011
        Hi Beat,

        I think paragraph 29 is a fateful paragraph as it is where Hegel indicates
        that the initiation process mentioned in paragraph 27 is to involve a
        labor and it is also where he begins to outline the nature of this labor
        that he at the time thought was within the grasp of his readers. I call
        this fateful because I believe that looking back we can see that Hegel was
        overly optimistic about the capabilities of his readers.

        Regards, Alan

        On 4/4/11 1:59 PM, "Beat Greuter" <greuterb@...> wrote:

        >Am 04.04.2011 01:29, Robert Fanelli writes:
        >
        >> Â
        >>
        >> Good news folks. I will no longer include the translated paragraph
        >> since most of you are not reading it anyway. If you wish to read the
        >> translation, let me know and I will send it to you. I would be happy
        >> if you got something out of my comments.
        >>
        >> Preface # 29 Comments:
        >>
        >> Hegel says, â??the goal to be reached is the mind's insight into what
        >> knowing is.â?? Cultural forms or cultural structures are embedded in
        >> the mind, as forms of being. The goal is not just to know but to know
        >> what knowing is in all its elements. There are many details and
        >> pathways to this goal. There is a universal sense of this development,
        >> which Hegel calls Weltgeist and which is simply world history, which
        >> has great or heavy human substance to it. The individual mind can take
        >> up no lighter toil than this history itself. We are a reflection of
        >> World History. Human reason on an individual basis has, through
        >> reflection, overcome immediacy and has developed various forms and
        >> structures as a form of being and thus the implicit becomes explicit,
        >> or so Hegel claims.
        >>
        >> It is spirit which must know what knowledge is. Geist refers to the
        >> power of the mind, a power which is a faculty of the human mind. The
        >> hard part will be to pause in the moments of insightfulness and grasp
        >> the otherness of the world, and to structure the shapes of things
        >> handed down to us. We must reduce all things to â??simple
        >> determinations of thought.â?? For Hegelâ??s goal is to present Thought
        >> and Being itself as One and thus as a reality which the mind develops
        >> as ultimate structures of all reality; that is, the reality of the
        >> universe and the absolute reality of the mind (Geist).
        >>
        >> Hegelâ??s phenomenological science is the science of knowing. We need
        >> to distinguish between world history, history of philosophy, history
        >> of absolute Spirit, and the history of culture. So goes the
        >>Phenomenology.
        >>
        >> Regards,
        >>
        >> Bob Fanelli
        >>
        >.
        >
        >
        >Bob,
        >
        >In my opinion your interpreaton of the paragraph 29 of the PhdG does
        >only partly refer to the essential points. There are four important
        >insights here Hegel wants to show us:
        >
        >(1) Human knowledge is the comprehension of spirit becoming self-aware
        >which realizes (determines) itself in necessary individual historical
        >shapes. There is no absolute knowledge, absolute truth, above or beyond
        >these historical shapes as the abstract understanding, the absolute
        >reason, believes - be it scientific or theological.
        >
        >(2) These shapes have therefore to be taken in their absoluteness, as a
        >whole, that is, in their achieved subject-object mediation, their own
        >determination, their achieved own knowledge of itself.
        >
        >(3) Knowing what knowledge is means to comprehend the inherent
        >dialectical development of these shapes since it shows the necessary
        >steps of mediating activities in our world relationship. With this what
        >first only is 'Dasein' then thought-in-itself - only substance of the
        >individual - becomes thought-for-the-individual.
        >
        >(4) The comprehension of the historical disclosure of the mediation of
        >spirit with itself can only be seen retrospectively after the shapes of
        >spirit have become moments and therefore have lost their absoluteness as
        >pure substance (content) of the individual, after "....... the content
        >is already the actuality reduced to a possiblility, its immediacy
        >overcome." (translated by A.V. Miller). The overcoming of immediacy
        >requires a long passage of time, both, historically (in-itself) and
        >individually (in-and-for-itself), and is what Hegel calls elsewhere
        >developing freedom.
        >
        >Regards,
        >Beat Greuter
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
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      • Beat Greuter
        ... Alan, I do not understand. In para 27 of the Preface of the PhdG Hegel writes: In order to become genuine knowledge, to beget the element of Science which
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 7, 2011
          Am 04.04.2011 20:21, Alan Ponikvar writes:

          > Hi Beat,
          >
          > I think paragraph 29 is a fateful paragraph as it is where Hegel indicates
          > that the initiation process mentioned in paragraph 27 is to involve a
          > labor and it is also where he begins to outline the nature of this labor
          > that he at the time thought was within the grasp of his readers. I call
          > this fateful because I believe that looking back we can see that Hegel was
          > overly optimistic about the capabilities of his readers.
          >
          > Regards, Alan
          >


          Alan,

          I do not understand. In para 27 of the Preface of the PhdG Hegel writes:

          "In order to become genuine knowledge, to beget the element of Science
          which is the pure Notion of Science itself, it must travel a long way
          and work its passage."

          Genuine knowledge is Pure (or Absolute) Knowing which includes at the
          end of the PhdG the pure Notion in-and-for-itself. But with this nothing
          is won since this Knowing is total emptiness having fully negated the
          actuality of consciousness and its world relation as immediate spirit.
          So, genuine knowledge has now to actualize itself in its new element,
          the pure Notion, that is, to mediate again sameness and non-sameness,
          being and non-being (nothing). This actualization is the path of the
          pure science of Logic which consciousness has reached in a white and
          black dress and again is the same long way and work along its passage.
          Perhaps a non-Hegelian is afraid to do this work with the result that he
          does nothing understand and only reproduces his abstract prejudices. A
          Hegelian, however, should forget his prejudices at this point though as
          you seem to suppose this does exceed his capabilities. But if this is
          true we only talk about the beginning and the movement and never dare
          the beginning and the movement what precisely is Hegel's demand on the
          reader coming into Pure Knowing. Certainly, a Hegelian cannot teach a
          non-Hegelian, both have to dare their own experiences.

          Regards,
          Beat Greuter


          >
          > On 4/4/11 1:59 PM, "Beat Greuter" <greuterb@...
          > <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>> wrote:
          >
          > >Am 04.04.2011 01:29, Robert Fanelli writes:
          > >
          > >> Â
          > >>
          > >> Good news folks. I will no longer include the translated paragraph
          > >> since most of you are not reading it anyway. If you wish to read the
          > >> translation, let me know and I will send it to you. I would be happy
          > >> if you got something out of my comments.
          > >>
          > >> Preface # 29 Comments:
          > >>
          > >> Hegel says, â??the goal to be reached is the mind's insight into what
          > >> knowing is.â?? Cultural forms or cultural structures are embedded in
          > >> the mind, as forms of being. The goal is not just to know but to know
          > >> what knowing is in all its elements. There are many details and
          > >> pathways to this goal. There is a universal sense of this development,
          > >> which Hegel calls Weltgeist and which is simply world history, which
          > >> has great or heavy human substance to it. The individual mind can take
          > >> up no lighter toil than this history itself. We are a reflection of
          > >> World History. Human reason on an individual basis has, through
          > >> reflection, overcome immediacy and has developed various forms and
          > >> structures as a form of being and thus the implicit becomes explicit,
          > >> or so Hegel claims.
          > >>
          > >> It is spirit which must know what knowledge is. Geist refers to the
          > >> power of the mind, a power which is a faculty of the human mind. The
          > >> hard part will be to pause in the moments of insightfulness and grasp
          > >> the otherness of the world, and to structure the shapes of things
          > >> handed down to us. We must reduce all things to â??simple
          > >> determinations of thought.â?? For Hegelâ??s goal is to present Thought
          > >> and Being itself as One and thus as a reality which the mind develops
          > >> as ultimate structures of all reality; that is, the reality of the
          > >> universe and the absolute reality of the mind (Geist).
          > >>
          > >> Hegelâ??s phenomenological science is the science of knowing. We need
          > >> to distinguish between world history, history of philosophy, history
          > >> of absolute Spirit, and the history of culture. So goes the
          > >>Phenomenology.
          > >>
          > >> Regards,
          > >>
          > >> Bob Fanelli
          > >>
          > >.
          > >
          > >
          > >Bob,
          > >
          > >In my opinion your interpreaton of the paragraph 29 of the PhdG does
          > >only partly refer to the essential points. There are four important
          > >insights here Hegel wants to show us:
          > >
          > >(1) Human knowledge is the comprehension of spirit becoming self-aware
          > >which realizes (determines) itself in necessary individual historical
          > >shapes. There is no absolute knowledge, absolute truth, above or beyond
          > >these historical shapes as the abstract understanding, the absolute
          > >reason, believes - be it scientific or theological.
          > >
          > >(2) These shapes have therefore to be taken in their absoluteness, as a
          > >whole, that is, in their achieved subject-object mediation, their own
          > >determination, their achieved own knowledge of itself.
          > >
          > >(3) Knowing what knowledge is means to comprehend the inherent
          > >dialectical development of these shapes since it shows the necessary
          > >steps of mediating activities in our world relationship. With this what
          > >first only is 'Dasein' then thought-in-itself - only substance of the
          > >individual - becomes thought-for-the-individual.
          > >
          > >(4) The comprehension of the historical disclosure of the mediation of
          > >spirit with itself can only be seen retrospectively after the shapes of
          > >spirit have become moments and therefore have lost their absoluteness as
          > >pure substance (content) of the individual, after "....... the content
          > >is already the actuality reduced to a possiblility, its immediacy
          > >overcome." (translated by A.V. Miller). The overcoming of immediacy
          > >requires a long passage of time, both, historically (in-itself) and
          > >individually (in-and-for-itself), and is what Hegel calls elsewhere
          > >developing freedom.
          > >
          > >Regards,
          > >Beat Greuter
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Alan Ponikvar
          Hi Beat, I was thinking of the next sentence after the one you quote from paragraph 27 where there is a reference to an uncommon initiation into science. In
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 7, 2011
            Hi Beat,

            I was thinking of the next sentence after the one you quote from paragraph
            27 where there is a reference to an uncommon initiation into science. In
            paragraph 28 the closest to a gloss on this initiation is an obscure
            reference to the universal individual. Labor is dumb and just requires
            effort and perseverance. What is required to comprehend Hegel's science is
            more than honest effort. It involves an ability as Hegel puts it to walk on
            our head if just this once. I tend to see Hegelians and nonHegelians as
            almost equally clueless as to what the standpoint of science is about.

            As for Absolute Knowing if you ask anyone who has studied the Phenomenology
            what it is that we have learned from the exposition my guess is that the
            most common answer is that we have rid ourselves of the natural prejudice
            that takes there to be an opposition between knowledge and truth. The
            problem as I see it is that this is typically taken to mean that a pure
            knowing has been freed of this defect and with this we are ready to turn to
            the science.

            I believe this view to be mistaken on the Hegelian grounds that truth is not
            a first negative but a second negative achievement. When something that
            orients our common conception of knowledge is 'shown to be misguided' this
            does not mean that we quite naturally take up a pure point of view. If
            something vanishes then something else has to emerge to take its place. This
            is absolute knowing which contrary to your gloss is not total emptiness at
            first. At first in Absolute Knowing there is a recollection of the entire
            exposition from the absolute standpoint. Only then does the other face of
            absolute knowing ­ the indeterminate face ­ come on the scene.

            Regards, Alan

            From: Beat Greuter <greuterb@...>
            Reply-To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:08:03 +0200
            To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit Preface # 29






            Am 04.04.2011 20:21, Alan Ponikvar writes:

            > Hi Beat,
            >
            > I think paragraph 29 is a fateful paragraph as it is where Hegel indicates
            > that the initiation process mentioned in paragraph 27 is to involve a
            > labor and it is also where he begins to outline the nature of this labor
            > that he at the time thought was within the grasp of his readers. I call
            > this fateful because I believe that looking back we can see that Hegel was
            > overly optimistic about the capabilities of his readers.
            >
            > Regards, Alan
            >

            Alan,

            I do not understand. In para 27 of the Preface of the PhdG Hegel writes:

            "In order to become genuine knowledge, to beget the element of Science
            which is the pure Notion of Science itself, it must travel a long way
            and work its passage."

            Genuine knowledge is Pure (or Absolute) Knowing which includes at the
            end of the PhdG the pure Notion in-and-for-itself. But with this nothing
            is won since this Knowing is total emptiness having fully negated the
            actuality of consciousness and its world relation as immediate spirit.
            So, genuine knowledge has now to actualize itself in its new element,
            the pure Notion, that is, to mediate again sameness and non-sameness,
            being and non-being (nothing). This actualization is the path of the
            pure science of Logic which consciousness has reached in a white and
            black dress and again is the same long way and work along its passage.
            Perhaps a non-Hegelian is afraid to do this work with the result that he
            does nothing understand and only reproduces his abstract prejudices. A
            Hegelian, however, should forget his prejudices at this point though as
            you seem to suppose this does exceed his capabilities. But if this is
            true we only talk about the beginning and the movement and never dare
            the beginning and the movement what precisely is Hegel's demand on the
            reader coming into Pure Knowing. Certainly, a Hegelian cannot teach a
            non-Hegelian, both have to dare their own experiences.

            Regards,
            Beat Greuter

            >
            > On 4/4/11 1:59 PM, "Beat Greuter" <greuterb@...
            <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>
            > <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>> wrote:
            >
            > >Am 04.04.2011 01:29, Robert Fanelli writes:
            > >
            > >> Â
            > >>
            > >> Good news folks. I will no longer include the translated paragraph
            > >> since most of you are not reading it anyway. If you wish to read the
            > >> translation, let me know and I will send it to you. I would be happy
            > >> if you got something out of my comments.
            > >>
            > >> Preface # 29 Comments:
            > >>
            > >> Hegel says, â??the goal to be reached is the mind's insight into what
            > >> knowing is.â?? Cultural forms or cultural structures are embedded in
            > >> the mind, as forms of being. The goal is not just to know but to know
            > >> what knowing is in all its elements. There are many details and
            > >> pathways to this goal. There is a universal sense of this development,
            > >> which Hegel calls Weltgeist and which is simply world history, which
            > >> has great or heavy human substance to it. The individual mind can take
            > >> up no lighter toil than this history itself. We are a reflection of
            > >> World History. Human reason on an individual basis has, through
            > >> reflection, overcome immediacy and has developed various forms and
            > >> structures as a form of being and thus the implicit becomes explicit,
            > >> or so Hegel claims.
            > >>
            > >> It is spirit which must know what knowledge is. Geist refers to the
            > >> power of the mind, a power which is a faculty of the human mind. The
            > >> hard part will be to pause in the moments of insightfulness and grasp
            > >> the otherness of the world, and to structure the shapes of things
            > >> handed down to us. We must reduce all things to â??simple
            > >> determinations of thought.â?? For Hegelâ??s goal is to present Thought
            > >> and Being itself as One and thus as a reality which the mind develops
            > >> as ultimate structures of all reality; that is, the reality of the
            > >> universe and the absolute reality of the mind (Geist).
            > >>
            > >> Hegelâ??s phenomenological science is the science of knowing. We need
            > >> to distinguish between world history, history of philosophy, history
            > >> of absolute Spirit, and the history of culture. So goes the
            > >>Phenomenology.
            > >>
            > >> Regards,
            > >>
            > >> Bob Fanelli
            > >>
            > >.
            > >
            > >
            > >Bob,
            > >
            > >In my opinion your interpreaton of the paragraph 29 of the PhdG does
            > >only partly refer to the essential points. There are four important
            > >insights here Hegel wants to show us:
            > >
            > >(1) Human knowledge is the comprehension of spirit becoming self-aware
            > >which realizes (determines) itself in necessary individual historical
            > >shapes. There is no absolute knowledge, absolute truth, above or beyond
            > >these historical shapes as the abstract understanding, the absolute
            > >reason, believes - be it scientific or theological.
            > >
            > >(2) These shapes have therefore to be taken in their absoluteness, as a
            > >whole, that is, in their achieved subject-object mediation, their own
            > >determination, their achieved own knowledge of itself.
            > >
            > >(3) Knowing what knowledge is means to comprehend the inherent
            > >dialectical development of these shapes since it shows the necessary
            > >steps of mediating activities in our world relationship. With this what
            > >first only is 'Dasein' then thought-in-itself - only substance of the
            > >individual - becomes thought-for-the-individual.
            > >
            > >(4) The comprehension of the historical disclosure of the mediation of
            > >spirit with itself can only be seen retrospectively after the shapes of
            > >spirit have become moments and therefore have lost their absoluteness as
            > >pure substance (content) of the individual, after "....... the content
            > >is already the actuality reduced to a possiblility, its immediacy
            > >overcome." (translated by A.V. Miller). The overcoming of immediacy
            > >requires a long passage of time, both, historically (in-itself) and
            > >individually (in-and-for-itself), and is what Hegel calls elsewhere
            > >developing freedom.
            > >
            > >Regards,
            > >Beat Greuter
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • wmdepot
            ... what I did learn in my university-days is this: Absolute knowing is the knowing of the absolute as the absolute ... regards - Juergen H. ... From: Alan
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 7, 2011
              ... what I did learn in my university-days is this:

              "Absolute knowing is the knowing of the absolute as the absolute ..."

              regards - Juergen H.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Alan Ponikvar" <ponikvaraj@...>
              To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 9:37 AM
              Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit Preface # 29


              Hi Beat,

              I was thinking of the next sentence after the one you quote from paragraph
              27 where there is a reference to an uncommon initiation into science. In
              paragraph 28 the closest to a gloss on this initiation is an obscure
              reference to the universal individual. Labor is dumb and just requires
              effort and perseverance. What is required to comprehend Hegel's science is
              more than honest effort. It involves an ability as Hegel puts it to walk on
              our head if just this once. I tend to see Hegelians and nonHegelians as
              almost equally clueless as to what the standpoint of science is about.

              As for Absolute Knowing if you ask anyone who has studied the Phenomenology
              what it is that we have learned from the exposition my guess is that the
              most common answer is that we have rid ourselves of the natural prejudice
              that takes there to be an opposition between knowledge and truth. The
              problem as I see it is that this is typically taken to mean that a pure
              knowing has been freed of this defect and with this we are ready to turn to
              the science.

              I believe this view to be mistaken on the Hegelian grounds that truth is not
              a first negative but a second negative achievement. When something that
              orients our common conception of knowledge is 'shown to be misguided' this
              does not mean that we quite naturally take up a pure point of view. If
              something vanishes then something else has to emerge to take its place. This
              is absolute knowing which contrary to your gloss is not total emptiness at
              first. At first in Absolute Knowing there is a recollection of the entire
              exposition from the absolute standpoint. Only then does the other face of
              absolute knowing ­ the indeterminate face ­ come on the scene.

              Regards, Alan

              From: Beat Greuter <greuterb@...>
              Reply-To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:08:03 +0200
              To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit Preface # 29






              Am 04.04.2011 20:21, Alan Ponikvar writes:

              > Hi Beat,
              >
              > I think paragraph 29 is a fateful paragraph as it is where Hegel indicates
              > that the initiation process mentioned in paragraph 27 is to involve a
              > labor and it is also where he begins to outline the nature of this labor
              > that he at the time thought was within the grasp of his readers. I call
              > this fateful because I believe that looking back we can see that Hegel was
              > overly optimistic about the capabilities of his readers.
              >
              > Regards, Alan
              >

              Alan,

              I do not understand. In para 27 of the Preface of the PhdG Hegel writes:

              "In order to become genuine knowledge, to beget the element of Science
              which is the pure Notion of Science itself, it must travel a long way
              and work its passage."

              Genuine knowledge is Pure (or Absolute) Knowing which includes at the
              end of the PhdG the pure Notion in-and-for-itself. But with this nothing
              is won since this Knowing is total emptiness having fully negated the
              actuality of consciousness and its world relation as immediate spirit.
              So, genuine knowledge has now to actualize itself in its new element,
              the pure Notion, that is, to mediate again sameness and non-sameness,
              being and non-being (nothing). This actualization is the path of the
              pure science of Logic which consciousness has reached in a white and
              black dress and again is the same long way and work along its passage.
              Perhaps a non-Hegelian is afraid to do this work with the result that he
              does nothing understand and only reproduces his abstract prejudices. A
              Hegelian, however, should forget his prejudices at this point though as
              you seem to suppose this does exceed his capabilities. But if this is
              true we only talk about the beginning and the movement and never dare
              the beginning and the movement what precisely is Hegel's demand on the
              reader coming into Pure Knowing. Certainly, a Hegelian cannot teach a
              non-Hegelian, both have to dare their own experiences.

              Regards,
              Beat Greuter

              >
              > On 4/4/11 1:59 PM, "Beat Greuter" <greuterb@...
              <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>
              > <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>> wrote:
              >
              > >Am 04.04.2011 01:29, Robert Fanelli writes:
              > >
              > >> Â
              > >>
              > >> Good news folks. I will no longer include the translated paragraph
              > >> since most of you are not reading it anyway. If you wish to read the
              > >> translation, let me know and I will send it to you. I would be happy
              > >> if you got something out of my comments.
              > >>
              > >> Preface # 29 Comments:
              > >>
              > >> Hegel says, â??the goal to be reached is the mind's insight into what
              > >> knowing is.â?? Cultural forms or cultural structures are embedded in
              > >> the mind, as forms of being. The goal is not just to know but to know
              > >> what knowing is in all its elements. There are many details and
              > >> pathways to this goal. There is a universal sense of this development,
              > >> which Hegel calls Weltgeist and which is simply world history, which
              > >> has great or heavy human substance to it. The individual mind can take
              > >> up no lighter toil than this history itself. We are a reflection of
              > >> World History. Human reason on an individual basis has, through
              > >> reflection, overcome immediacy and has developed various forms and
              > >> structures as a form of being and thus the implicit becomes explicit,
              > >> or so Hegel claims.
              > >>
              > >> It is spirit which must know what knowledge is. Geist refers to the
              > >> power of the mind, a power which is a faculty of the human mind. The
              > >> hard part will be to pause in the moments of insightfulness and grasp
              > >> the otherness of the world, and to structure the shapes of things
              > >> handed down to us. We must reduce all things to â??simple
              > >> determinations of thought.â?? For Hegelâ??s goal is to present Thought
              > >> and Being itself as One and thus as a reality which the mind develops
              > >> as ultimate structures of all reality; that is, the reality of the
              > >> universe and the absolute reality of the mind (Geist).
              > >>
              > >> Hegelâ??s phenomenological science is the science of knowing. We need
              > >> to distinguish between world history, history of philosophy, history
              > >> of absolute Spirit, and the history of culture. So goes the
              > >>Phenomenology.
              > >>
              > >> Regards,
              > >>
              > >> Bob Fanelli
              > >>
              > >.
              > >
              > >
              > >Bob,
              > >
              > >In my opinion your interpreaton of the paragraph 29 of the PhdG does
              > >only partly refer to the essential points. There are four important
              > >insights here Hegel wants to show us:
              > >
              > >(1) Human knowledge is the comprehension of spirit becoming self-aware
              > >which realizes (determines) itself in necessary individual historical
              > >shapes. There is no absolute knowledge, absolute truth, above or beyond
              > >these historical shapes as the abstract understanding, the absolute
              > >reason, believes - be it scientific or theological.
              > >
              > >(2) These shapes have therefore to be taken in their absoluteness, as a
              > >whole, that is, in their achieved subject-object mediation, their own
              > >determination, their achieved own knowledge of itself.
              > >
              > >(3) Knowing what knowledge is means to comprehend the inherent
              > >dialectical development of these shapes since it shows the necessary
              > >steps of mediating activities in our world relationship. With this what
              > >first only is 'Dasein' then thought-in-itself - only substance of the
              > >individual - becomes thought-for-the-individual.
              > >
              > >(4) The comprehension of the historical disclosure of the mediation of
              > >spirit with itself can only be seen retrospectively after the shapes of
              > >spirit have become moments and therefore have lost their absoluteness as
              > >pure substance (content) of the individual, after "....... the content
              > >is already the actuality reduced to a possiblility, its immediacy
              > >overcome." (translated by A.V. Miller). The overcoming of immediacy
              > >requires a long passage of time, both, historically (in-itself) and
              > >individually (in-and-for-itself), and is what Hegel calls elsewhere
              > >developing freedom.
              > >
              > >Regards,
              > >Beat Greuter
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

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              slightly moderated, only plain Text (no HTML/RTF), no attachments,
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              Particpants are expected to show a respectfull and scientific attitude both
              to Hegel and to each other. The usual "netiquette" as well as scientific
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            • Alan Ponikvar
              Exactly! What? - Alan From: wmdepot Reply-To: Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 12:03:21 +0200 To:
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 7, 2011
                Exactly! What?

                - Alan

                From: wmdepot <wmdepot@...>
                Reply-To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 12:03:21 +0200
                To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: [hegel] Re: Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit Preface # 29






                ... what I did learn in my university-days is this:

                "Absolute knowing is the knowing of the absolute as the absolute ..."

                regards - Juergen H.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Alan Ponikvar" <ponikvaraj@... <mailto:ponikvaraj%40gmail.com>
                >
                To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hegel%40yahoogroups.com> >
                Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 9:37 AM
                Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit Preface # 29

                Hi Beat,

                I was thinking of the next sentence after the one you quote from paragraph
                27 where there is a reference to an uncommon initiation into science. In
                paragraph 28 the closest to a gloss on this initiation is an obscure
                reference to the universal individual. Labor is dumb and just requires
                effort and perseverance. What is required to comprehend Hegel's science is
                more than honest effort. It involves an ability as Hegel puts it to walk on
                our head if just this once. I tend to see Hegelians and nonHegelians as
                almost equally clueless as to what the standpoint of science is about.

                As for Absolute Knowing if you ask anyone who has studied the Phenomenology
                what it is that we have learned from the exposition my guess is that the
                most common answer is that we have rid ourselves of the natural prejudice
                that takes there to be an opposition between knowledge and truth. The
                problem as I see it is that this is typically taken to mean that a pure
                knowing has been freed of this defect and with this we are ready to turn to
                the science.

                I believe this view to be mistaken on the Hegelian grounds that truth is not
                a first negative but a second negative achievement. When something that
                orients our common conception of knowledge is 'shown to be misguided' this
                does not mean that we quite naturally take up a pure point of view. If
                something vanishes then something else has to emerge to take its place. This
                is absolute knowing which contrary to your gloss is not total emptiness at
                first. At first in Absolute Knowing there is a recollection of the entire
                exposition from the absolute standpoint. Only then does the other face of
                absolute knowing ­ the indeterminate face ­ come on the scene.

                Regards, Alan

                From: Beat Greuter <greuterb@... <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch> >
                Reply-To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hegel%40yahoogroups.com> >
                Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:08:03 +0200
                To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hegel%40yahoogroups.com> >
                Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit Preface # 29

                Am 04.04.2011 20:21, Alan Ponikvar writes:

                > Hi Beat,
                >
                > I think paragraph 29 is a fateful paragraph as it is where Hegel indicates
                > that the initiation process mentioned in paragraph 27 is to involve a
                > labor and it is also where he begins to outline the nature of this labor
                > that he at the time thought was within the grasp of his readers. I call
                > this fateful because I believe that looking back we can see that Hegel was
                > overly optimistic about the capabilities of his readers.
                >
                > Regards, Alan
                >

                Alan,

                I do not understand. In para 27 of the Preface of the PhdG Hegel writes:

                "In order to become genuine knowledge, to beget the element of Science
                which is the pure Notion of Science itself, it must travel a long way
                and work its passage."

                Genuine knowledge is Pure (or Absolute) Knowing which includes at the
                end of the PhdG the pure Notion in-and-for-itself. But with this nothing
                is won since this Knowing is total emptiness having fully negated the
                actuality of consciousness and its world relation as immediate spirit.
                So, genuine knowledge has now to actualize itself in its new element,
                the pure Notion, that is, to mediate again sameness and non-sameness,
                being and non-being (nothing). This actualization is the path of the
                pure science of Logic which consciousness has reached in a white and
                black dress and again is the same long way and work along its passage.
                Perhaps a non-Hegelian is afraid to do this work with the result that he
                does nothing understand and only reproduces his abstract prejudices. A
                Hegelian, however, should forget his prejudices at this point though as
                you seem to suppose this does exceed his capabilities. But if this is
                true we only talk about the beginning and the movement and never dare
                the beginning and the movement what precisely is Hegel's demand on the
                reader coming into Pure Knowing. Certainly, a Hegelian cannot teach a
                non-Hegelian, both have to dare their own experiences.

                Regards,
                Beat Greuter

                >
                > On 4/4/11 1:59 PM, "Beat Greuter" <greuterb@...
                <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>
                <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>
                > <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>> wrote:
                >
                > >Am 04.04.2011 01:29, Robert Fanelli writes:
                > >
                > >> Â
                > >>
                > >> Good news folks. I will no longer include the translated paragraph
                > >> since most of you are not reading it anyway. If you wish to read the
                > >> translation, let me know and I will send it to you. I would be happy
                > >> if you got something out of my comments.
                > >>
                > >> Preface # 29 Comments:
                > >>
                > >> Hegel says, â??the goal to be reached is the mind's insight into what
                > >> knowing is.â?? Cultural forms or cultural structures are embedded in
                > >> the mind, as forms of being. The goal is not just to know but to know
                > >> what knowing is in all its elements. There are many details and
                > >> pathways to this goal. There is a universal sense of this development,
                > >> which Hegel calls Weltgeist and which is simply world history, which
                > >> has great or heavy human substance to it. The individual mind can take
                > >> up no lighter toil than this history itself. We are a reflection of
                > >> World History. Human reason on an individual basis has, through
                > >> reflection, overcome immediacy and has developed various forms and
                > >> structures as a form of being and thus the implicit becomes explicit,
                > >> or so Hegel claims.
                > >>
                > >> It is spirit which must know what knowledge is. Geist refers to the
                > >> power of the mind, a power which is a faculty of the human mind. The
                > >> hard part will be to pause in the moments of insightfulness and grasp
                > >> the otherness of the world, and to structure the shapes of things
                > >> handed down to us. We must reduce all things to â??simple
                > >> determinations of thought.â?? For Hegelâ??s goal is to present Thought
                > >> and Being itself as One and thus as a reality which the mind develops
                > >> as ultimate structures of all reality; that is, the reality of the
                > >> universe and the absolute reality of the mind (Geist).
                > >>
                > >> Hegelâ??s phenomenological science is the science of knowing. We need
                > >> to distinguish between world history, history of philosophy, history
                > >> of absolute Spirit, and the history of culture. So goes the
                > >>Phenomenology.
                > >>
                > >> Regards,
                > >>
                > >> Bob Fanelli
                > >>
                > >.
                > >
                > >
                > >Bob,
                > >
                > >In my opinion your interpreaton of the paragraph 29 of the PhdG does
                > >only partly refer to the essential points. There are four important
                > >insights here Hegel wants to show us:
                > >
                > >(1) Human knowledge is the comprehension of spirit becoming self-aware
                > >which realizes (determines) itself in necessary individual historical
                > >shapes. There is no absolute knowledge, absolute truth, above or beyond
                > >these historical shapes as the abstract understanding, the absolute
                > >reason, believes - be it scientific or theological.
                > >
                > >(2) These shapes have therefore to be taken in their absoluteness, as a
                > >whole, that is, in their achieved subject-object mediation, their own
                > >determination, their achieved own knowledge of itself.
                > >
                > >(3) Knowing what knowledge is means to comprehend the inherent
                > >dialectical development of these shapes since it shows the necessary
                > >steps of mediating activities in our world relationship. With this what
                > >first only is 'Dasein' then thought-in-itself - only substance of the
                > >individual - becomes thought-for-the-individual.
                > >
                > >(4) The comprehension of the historical disclosure of the mediation of
                > >spirit with itself can only be seen retrospectively after the shapes of
                > >spirit have become moments and therefore have lost their absoluteness as
                > >pure substance (content) of the individual, after "....... the content
                > >is already the actuality reduced to a possiblility, its immediacy
                > >overcome." (translated by A.V. Miller). The overcoming of immediacy
                > >requires a long passage of time, both, historically (in-itself) and
                > >individually (in-and-for-itself), and is what Hegel calls elsewhere
                > >developing freedom.
                > >
                > >Regards,
                > >Beat Greuter
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------

                Homepage: http://hegel.net
                Hegel mailing lists: http://Hegel.net/en/ml.htm
                Listowners Homepage: http://kai.in
                Group policy:
                slightly moderated, only plain Text (no HTML/RTF), no attachments,
                only Hegel related mails, scientific level intended.

                Particpants are expected to show a respectfull and scientific attitude both
                to Hegel and to each other. The usual "netiquette" as well as scientific
                standards apply.

                The copyright policy for mails sent to this list is same as for Hegel.Net,
                that is the copyright of the mails belongs to the author and hegel.net.
                Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify the mails of this
                list under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or
                any later version, published by the Free Software Foundation. The mails are
                also licensed under a Creative Commons License and under the Creative
                Commons Developing Nations license (see footer of
                http://hegel.net/en/e0.htm ) Yahoo! Groups Links









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Beat Greuter
                ... Alan, How does it come on the scene? It is already come on the scene at the end of the PhdG. There is no further step after the collapse of consciousness
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 8, 2011
                  Am 07.04.2011 09:37, Alan Ponikvar writes:
                  >
                  > Hi Beat,
                  >
                  > I was thinking of the next sentence after the one you quote from paragraph
                  > 27 where there is a reference to an uncommon initiation into science. In
                  > paragraph 28 the closest to a gloss on this initiation is an obscure
                  > reference to the universal individual. Labor is dumb and just requires
                  > effort and perseverance. What is required to comprehend Hegel's science is
                  > more than honest effort. It involves an ability as Hegel puts it to
                  > walk on
                  > our head if just this once. I tend to see Hegelians and nonHegelians as
                  > almost equally clueless as to what the standpoint of science is about.
                  >
                  > As for Absolute Knowing if you ask anyone who has studied the
                  > Phenomenology
                  > what it is that we have learned from the exposition my guess is that the
                  > most common answer is that we have rid ourselves of the natural prejudice
                  > that takes there to be an opposition between knowledge and truth. The
                  > problem as I see it is that this is typically taken to mean that a pure
                  > knowing has been freed of this defect and with this we are ready to
                  > turn to
                  > the science.
                  >
                  > I believe this view to be mistaken on the Hegelian grounds that truth
                  > is not
                  > a first negative but a second negative achievement. When something that
                  > orients our common conception of knowledge is 'shown to be misguided' this
                  > does not mean that we quite naturally take up a pure point of view. If
                  > something vanishes then something else has to emerge to take its
                  > place. This
                  > is absolute knowing which contrary to your gloss is not total emptiness at
                  > first. At first in Absolute Knowing there is a recollection of the entire
                  > exposition from the absolute standpoint. Only then does the other face of
                  > absolute knowing ­ the indeterminate face ­ come on the scene.
                  >


                  Alan,

                  How does it come on the scene? It is already come on the scene at the
                  end of the PhdG. There is no further step after the collapse of
                  consciousness having had an absolute truth outside of itself (therefore
                  the chapter on Absolute Knowing in the PhdG is very short). This
                  collapse exactly is the beginning of Absolute Knowing as a new start
                  into mediation where truth is a becoming and only attainable by the
                  movment of the concept. Such collapses you can find all over in the PhdG
                  and the Logic. The collapse between the PhdG and the Logic is 'only' a
                  more 'fundamental' about-face (Kehrtwende) than the others. Of course,
                  this about-face is prepared by the experience of consciousness to which
                  the whole PhdG is related to. But also the other collapses are prepared
                  by such 'experiences' that there is no other 'escape'. You want to have
                  the truth before you enter into the Logic. This is impossible and deeply
                  unhegelian. So, please tell me what this "recollection of the entire
                  exposition from the absolute standpoint" is if it is not the Logic
                  itself? Or, do you want to develop a Logic before the Logic?

                  Regards,
                  Beat Greuter


                  >
                  > Regards, Alan
                  >
                  > From: Beat Greuter <greuterb@... <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>>
                  > Reply-To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hegel%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:08:03 +0200
                  > To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hegel%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit Preface # 29
                  >
                  > Am 04.04.2011 20:21, Alan Ponikvar writes:
                  >
                  > > Hi Beat,
                  > >
                  > > I think paragraph 29 is a fateful paragraph as it is where Hegel
                  > indicates
                  > > that the initiation process mentioned in paragraph 27 is to involve a
                  > > labor and it is also where he begins to outline the nature of this labor
                  > > that he at the time thought was within the grasp of his readers. I call
                  > > this fateful because I believe that looking back we can see that
                  > Hegel was
                  > > overly optimistic about the capabilities of his readers.
                  > >
                  > > Regards, Alan
                  > >
                  >
                  > Alan,
                  >
                  > I do not understand. In para 27 of the Preface of the PhdG Hegel writes:
                  >
                  > "In order to become genuine knowledge, to beget the element of Science
                  > which is the pure Notion of Science itself, it must travel a long way
                  > and work its passage."
                  >
                  > Genuine knowledge is Pure (or Absolute) Knowing which includes at the
                  > end of the PhdG the pure Notion in-and-for-itself. But with this nothing
                  > is won since this Knowing is total emptiness having fully negated the
                  > actuality of consciousness and its world relation as immediate spirit.
                  > So, genuine knowledge has now to actualize itself in its new element,
                  > the pure Notion, that is, to mediate again sameness and non-sameness,
                  > being and non-being (nothing). This actualization is the path of the
                  > pure science of Logic which consciousness has reached in a white and
                  > black dress and again is the same long way and work along its passage.
                  > Perhaps a non-Hegelian is afraid to do this work with the result that he
                  > does nothing understand and only reproduces his abstract prejudices. A
                  > Hegelian, however, should forget his prejudices at this point though as
                  > you seem to suppose this does exceed his capabilities. But if this is
                  > true we only talk about the beginning and the movement and never dare
                  > the beginning and the movement what precisely is Hegel's demand on the
                  > reader coming into Pure Knowing. Certainly, a Hegelian cannot teach a
                  > non-Hegelian, both have to dare their own experiences.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Beat Greuter
                  >
                  > >
                  > > On 4/4/11 1:59 PM, "Beat Greuter" <greuterb@...
                  > <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>
                  > <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>
                  > > <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >Am 04.04.2011 01:29, Robert Fanelli writes:
                  > > >
                  > > >> Â
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Good news folks. I will no longer include the translated paragraph
                  > > >> since most of you are not reading it anyway. If you wish to read the
                  > > >> translation, let me know and I will send it to you. I would be happy
                  > > >> if you got something out of my comments.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Preface # 29 Comments:
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Hegel says, â??the goal to be reached is the mind's insight into what
                  > > >> knowing is.â?? Cultural forms or cultural structures are embedded in
                  > > >> the mind, as forms of being. The goal is not just to know but to know
                  > > >> what knowing is in all its elements. There are many details and
                  > > >> pathways to this goal. There is a universal sense of this
                  > development,
                  > > >> which Hegel calls Weltgeist and which is simply world history, which
                  > > >> has great or heavy human substance to it. The individual mind can
                  > take
                  > > >> up no lighter toil than this history itself. We are a reflection of
                  > > >> World History. Human reason on an individual basis has, through
                  > > >> reflection, overcome immediacy and has developed various forms and
                  > > >> structures as a form of being and thus the implicit becomes explicit,
                  > > >> or so Hegel claims.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> It is spirit which must know what knowledge is. Geist refers to the
                  > > >> power of the mind, a power which is a faculty of the human mind. The
                  > > >> hard part will be to pause in the moments of insightfulness and grasp
                  > > >> the otherness of the world, and to structure the shapes of things
                  > > >> handed down to us. We must reduce all things to â??simple
                  > > >> determinations of thought.â?? For Hegelâ??s goal is to present
                  > Thought
                  > > >> and Being itself as One and thus as a reality which the mind develops
                  > > >> as ultimate structures of all reality; that is, the reality of the
                  > > >> universe and the absolute reality of the mind (Geist).
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Hegelâ??s phenomenological science is the science of knowing. We need
                  > > >> to distinguish between world history, history of philosophy, history
                  > > >> of absolute Spirit, and the history of culture. So goes the
                  > > >>Phenomenology.
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Regards,
                  > > >>
                  > > >> Bob Fanelli
                  > > >>
                  > > >.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >Bob,
                  > > >
                  > > >In my opinion your interpreaton of the paragraph 29 of the PhdG does
                  > > >only partly refer to the essential points. There are four important
                  > > >insights here Hegel wants to show us:
                  > > >
                  > > >(1) Human knowledge is the comprehension of spirit becoming self-aware
                  > > >which realizes (determines) itself in necessary individual historical
                  > > >shapes. There is no absolute knowledge, absolute truth, above or beyond
                  > > >these historical shapes as the abstract understanding, the absolute
                  > > >reason, believes - be it scientific or theological.
                  > > >
                  > > >(2) These shapes have therefore to be taken in their absoluteness, as a
                  > > >whole, that is, in their achieved subject-object mediation, their own
                  > > >determination, their achieved own knowledge of itself.
                  > > >
                  > > >(3) Knowing what knowledge is means to comprehend the inherent
                  > > >dialectical development of these shapes since it shows the necessary
                  > > >steps of mediating activities in our world relationship. With this what
                  > > >first only is 'Dasein' then thought-in-itself - only substance of the
                  > > >individual - becomes thought-for-the-individual.
                  > > >
                  > > >(4) The comprehension of the historical disclosure of the mediation of
                  > > >spirit with itself can only be seen retrospectively after the shapes of
                  > > >spirit have become moments and therefore have lost their
                  > absoluteness as
                  > > >pure substance (content) of the individual, after "....... the content
                  > > >is already the actuality reduced to a possiblility, its immediacy
                  > > >overcome." (translated by A.V. Miller). The overcoming of immediacy
                  > > >requires a long passage of time, both, historically (in-itself) and
                  > > >individually (in-and-for-itself), and is what Hegel calls elsewhere
                  > > >developing freedom.
                  > > >
                  > > >Regards,
                  > > >Beat Greuter
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Alan Ponikvar
                  Hi Beat, The collapse of consciousness is something that is creating a great deal of confusion in the discussion to this point. Collapse seems to suggest to
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 8, 2011
                    Hi Beat,

                    The collapse of consciousness is something that is creating a great deal of
                    confusion in the discussion to this point. Collapse seems to suggest to you
                    and others that the subject/object distinction has ceased to exist as the
                    two have collapsed into an indeterminate unity. But what is absolute about
                    such a collapse? Where is the difference of the identity in difference? The
                    final chapter may be short but it is long enough to accomplish what it sets
                    out to do.

                    I prefer viewing the Phenomenology as a story about the self-alienation of
                    spirit. The overarching spiritual divide is between representational and
                    speculative or absolute knowing. Hegel tells us early in the Introduction
                    that the absolute alone is true and the true alone is absolute. Minimally
                    this means that whenever Hegel speaks about the truth of consciousness he is
                    referencing an absolute knowing.

                    This knowing is meant for us, but when we first come to the text we are
                    unable to appreciate this truth or what it really means. So we notice
                    without comprehension that the truth that completes each mode of natural
                    consciousness also immediately inverts. An absolute infinite movement
                    transitions into a stable abstract conception.

                    I like to use the end of perception as one of the clearer examples of how
                    this works. The infinite movement of being for self and being for another is
                    a self-subsistent movement. The movement coheres. This coherence can be
                    grasped as the unconditioned universal. This unconditioned universal is the
                    abstract face of the infinite movement. It is the stable result that marks
                    the collapse of the movement. The differences have been suspended and give
                    way to the abstract conception of the absolute. But as Hegel says, these
                    differences have also been preserved. In my piece on the move from becoming
                    to Dasein I spoke at great length about this.

                    The ignorant reader needs to learn the implication of the fact that each
                    truth given to consciousness is a posit of the reader's own knowing. The
                    reader does not realize that the exposition is about the alienated
                    appearance of his own knowing as the absolute as actual as spirit. The
                    transition from a focus on consciousness to a focus on spirit marks a
                    transformation in what is meant by the opposition of consciousness. The only
                    subject/object collapse we have in the end is the descent of the reader down
                    into natural consciousness. But this collapse does not suspend the activity
                    of knowing as absolute. It simply sets the stage for the recollection of
                    what has transpired and an anticipation of what is to come next as the entry
                    into the Logic. The indeterminate immediate is thinking without a presumed
                    standard or thought as itself absolute.

                    Over the course of the exposition the opposition is played out as the inner
                    difference of the absolute, a difference between the point of view of the
                    reader and the point of view of natural consciousness which itself is
                    nothing but a projection of the reader's own fear of the skeptic onto an
                    artificial construct that Hegel calls natural consciousness. Reciprocal
                    recognition is about how the reader comes to recognize himself in the
                    consciousness he has been observing. The story of Christ as god descending
                    into man is then used to picture the descent of the reader as a preparation
                    for his role in the final chapter.

                    In fact, most of the stories in the Phenomenology can be read as depictions
                    of the relation between the reader and natural consciousness. It is this
                    relation itself that is staged in the exposition since this opposition is
                    what the exposition is about. So we as the master leave it to natural
                    consciousness to shape and fashion knowing for our own enjoyment as we take
                    up the product as pure being for self or take up what consciousness has
                    given an absolute shape.

                    In the end the opposition between representational and speculative knowing
                    is resolved when the reader becomes natural consciousness in the final
                    chapter and then goes about recollecting the entire series of truths from
                    this newly achieved point of view. This is when the true alone becomes
                    absolute.

                    The reader no longer merely observes, but in keeping with the nature of
                    absolute knowing, is now situated within the element of the true or within
                    the absolute. If he has learned the lesson then he comes to see how the
                    absolute has been with him all along.

                    But absolute knowing is a knowing in transition. It always has two faces as
                    made evident at the transitions. So if the reader is to be rather than
                    simply observe the absolute as true he has to look both backward and forward
                    as the middle of the absolute. The indifferent inner difference between the
                    two faces shows itself to be the place where thought as absolute is situated
                    so as to have the dual view required of thought that must also attend to its
                    own thinking activity, which is what thought that is absolute amounts to.

                    The recollection is the looking back. The looking forward no longer has the
                    distinction between the reader and natural consciousness that has
                    facilitated the forward movement of the exposition. They have collapsed in
                    that they have come together as one knower with two points of view. This is
                    the reader as he has been educated to the standpoint of science.

                    This is one reason why we find the understanding referenced in the Logic.
                    Oppositional thinking has not ceased to exist. It simply has become one
                    moment of absolute knowing. This is what is missing from your reference to
                    the collapse. It is also what is missing from most anyone's account of what
                    it means to be educated to the standpoint of science.

                    So, the truth is not something we have before we enter the Logic. It is
                    something that we need to inhabit. If we are always with the absolute then
                    what we need to learn is how exactly we are with the absolute. This is what
                    I take to be the lesson of the Phenomenology. We enter the Logic as Hegel
                    tells us in the element of thought. What this means is what we need to learn
                    if we are to think thought that thinks itself.

                    For Hegel, the absolute comes to replace what the modern tradition has
                    mislocated in self-reflective subjectivity. His task has been to properly
                    situate thought and in this way reject the vanity of the modern age's point
                    of view. As made evident in the Phenomenology, and what is still in play in
                    the Logic, is that thought acts in ignorance of the true import of its own
                    activity. This is why thought continually needs to recollect what has
                    already been thought.

                    Regards, Alan

                    From: Beat Greuter <greuterb@...>
                    Reply-To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 09:33:44 +0200
                    To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit Preface # 29






                    Am 07.04.2011 09:37, Alan Ponikvar writes:
                    >
                    > Hi Beat,
                    >
                    > I was thinking of the next sentence after the one you quote from paragraph
                    > 27 where there is a reference to an uncommon initiation into science. In
                    > paragraph 28 the closest to a gloss on this initiation is an obscure
                    > reference to the universal individual. Labor is dumb and just requires
                    > effort and perseverance. What is required to comprehend Hegel's science is
                    > more than honest effort. It involves an ability as Hegel puts it to
                    > walk on
                    > our head if just this once. I tend to see Hegelians and nonHegelians as
                    > almost equally clueless as to what the standpoint of science is about.
                    >
                    > As for Absolute Knowing if you ask anyone who has studied the
                    > Phenomenology
                    > what it is that we have learned from the exposition my guess is that the
                    > most common answer is that we have rid ourselves of the natural prejudice
                    > that takes there to be an opposition between knowledge and truth. The
                    > problem as I see it is that this is typically taken to mean that a pure
                    > knowing has been freed of this defect and with this we are ready to
                    > turn to
                    > the science.
                    >
                    > I believe this view to be mistaken on the Hegelian grounds that truth
                    > is not
                    > a first negative but a second negative achievement. When something that
                    > orients our common conception of knowledge is 'shown to be misguided' this
                    > does not mean that we quite naturally take up a pure point of view. If
                    > something vanishes then something else has to emerge to take its
                    > place. This
                    > is absolute knowing which contrary to your gloss is not total emptiness at
                    > first. At first in Absolute Knowing there is a recollection of the entire
                    > exposition from the absolute standpoint. Only then does the other face of
                    > absolute knowing ­ the indeterminate face ­ come on the scene.
                    >

                    Alan,

                    How does it come on the scene? It is already come on the scene at the
                    end of the PhdG. There is no further step after the collapse of
                    consciousness having had an absolute truth outside of itself (therefore
                    the chapter on Absolute Knowing in the PhdG is very short). This
                    collapse exactly is the beginning of Absolute Knowing as a new start
                    into mediation where truth is a becoming and only attainable by the
                    movment of the concept. Such collapses you can find all over in the PhdG
                    and the Logic. The collapse between the PhdG and the Logic is 'only' a
                    more 'fundamental' about-face (Kehrtwende) than the others. Of course,
                    this about-face is prepared by the experience of consciousness to which
                    the whole PhdG is related to. But also the other collapses are prepared
                    by such 'experiences' that there is no other 'escape'. You want to have
                    the truth before you enter into the Logic. This is impossible and deeply
                    unhegelian. So, please tell me what this "recollection of the entire
                    exposition from the absolute standpoint" is if it is not the Logic
                    itself? Or, do you want to develop a Logic before the Logic?

                    Regards,
                    Beat Greuter

                    >
                    > Regards, Alan
                    >
                    > From: Beat Greuter <greuterb@... <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>
                    <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>>
                    > Reply-To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hegel%40yahoogroups.com>
                    <mailto:hegel%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:08:03 +0200
                    > To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hegel%40yahoogroups.com>
                    <mailto:hegel%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit Preface # 29
                    >
                    > Am 04.04.2011 20:21, Alan Ponikvar writes:
                    >
                    > > Hi Beat,
                    > >
                    > > I think paragraph 29 is a fateful paragraph as it is where Hegel
                    > indicates
                    > > that the initiation process mentioned in paragraph 27 is to involve a
                    > > labor and it is also where he begins to outline the nature of this labor
                    > > that he at the time thought was within the grasp of his readers. I call
                    > > this fateful because I believe that looking back we can see that
                    > Hegel was
                    > > overly optimistic about the capabilities of his readers.
                    > >
                    > > Regards, Alan
                    > >
                    >
                    > Alan,
                    >
                    > I do not understand. In para 27 of the Preface of the PhdG Hegel writes:
                    >
                    > "In order to become genuine knowledge, to beget the element of Science
                    > which is the pure Notion of Science itself, it must travel a long way
                    > and work its passage."
                    >
                    > Genuine knowledge is Pure (or Absolute) Knowing which includes at the
                    > end of the PhdG the pure Notion in-and-for-itself. But with this nothing
                    > is won since this Knowing is total emptiness having fully negated the
                    > actuality of consciousness and its world relation as immediate spirit.
                    > So, genuine knowledge has now to actualize itself in its new element,
                    > the pure Notion, that is, to mediate again sameness and non-sameness,
                    > being and non-being (nothing). This actualization is the path of the
                    > pure science of Logic which consciousness has reached in a white and
                    > black dress and again is the same long way and work along its passage.
                    > Perhaps a non-Hegelian is afraid to do this work with the result that he
                    > does nothing understand and only reproduces his abstract prejudices. A
                    > Hegelian, however, should forget his prejudices at this point though as
                    > you seem to suppose this does exceed his capabilities. But if this is
                    > true we only talk about the beginning and the movement and never dare
                    > the beginning and the movement what precisely is Hegel's demand on the
                    > reader coming into Pure Knowing. Certainly, a Hegelian cannot teach a
                    > non-Hegelian, both have to dare their own experiences.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Beat Greuter
                    >
                    > >
                    > > On 4/4/11 1:59 PM, "Beat Greuter" <greuterb@...
                    <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>
                    > <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>
                    > <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>
                    > > <mailto:greuterb%40bluewin.ch>> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >Am 04.04.2011 01:29, Robert Fanelli writes:
                    > > >
                    > > >> Â
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Good news folks. I will no longer include the translated paragraph
                    > > >> since most of you are not reading it anyway. If you wish to read the
                    > > >> translation, let me know and I will send it to you. I would be happy
                    > > >> if you got something out of my comments.
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Preface # 29 Comments:
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Hegel says, â??the goal to be reached is the mind's insight into what
                    > > >> knowing is.â?? Cultural forms or cultural structures are embedded in
                    > > >> the mind, as forms of being. The goal is not just to know but to know
                    > > >> what knowing is in all its elements. There are many details and
                    > > >> pathways to this goal. There is a universal sense of this
                    > development,
                    > > >> which Hegel calls Weltgeist and which is simply world history, which
                    > > >> has great or heavy human substance to it. The individual mind can
                    > take
                    > > >> up no lighter toil than this history itself. We are a reflection of
                    > > >> World History. Human reason on an individual basis has, through
                    > > >> reflection, overcome immediacy and has developed various forms and
                    > > >> structures as a form of being and thus the implicit becomes explicit,
                    > > >> or so Hegel claims.
                    > > >>
                    > > >> It is spirit which must know what knowledge is. Geist refers to the
                    > > >> power of the mind, a power which is a faculty of the human mind. The
                    > > >> hard part will be to pause in the moments of insightfulness and grasp
                    > > >> the otherness of the world, and to structure the shapes of things
                    > > >> handed down to us. We must reduce all things to â??simple
                    > > >> determinations of thought.â?? For Hegelâ??s goal is to present
                    > Thought
                    > > >> and Being itself as One and thus as a reality which the mind develops
                    > > >> as ultimate structures of all reality; that is, the reality of the
                    > > >> universe and the absolute reality of the mind (Geist).
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Hegelâ??s phenomenological science is the science of knowing. We need
                    > > >> to distinguish between world history, history of philosophy, history
                    > > >> of absolute Spirit, and the history of culture. So goes the
                    > > >>Phenomenology.
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Regards,
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Bob Fanelli
                    > > >>
                    > > >.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >Bob,
                    > > >
                    > > >In my opinion your interpreaton of the paragraph 29 of the PhdG does
                    > > >only partly refer to the essential points. There are four important
                    > > >insights here Hegel wants to show us:
                    > > >
                    > > >(1) Human knowledge is the comprehension of spirit becoming self-aware
                    > > >which realizes (determines) itself in necessary individual historical
                    > > >shapes. There is no absolute knowledge, absolute truth, above or beyond
                    > > >these historical shapes as the abstract understanding, the absolute
                    > > >reason, believes - be it scientific or theological.
                    > > >
                    > > >(2) These shapes have therefore to be taken in their absoluteness, as a
                    > > >whole, that is, in their achieved subject-object mediation, their own
                    > > >determination, their achieved own knowledge of itself.
                    > > >
                    > > >(3) Knowing what knowledge is means to comprehend the inherent
                    > > >dialectical development of these shapes since it shows the necessary
                    > > >steps of mediating activities in our world relationship. With this what
                    > > >first only is 'Dasein' then thought-in-itself - only substance of the
                    > > >individual - becomes thought-for-the-individual.
                    > > >
                    > > >(4) The comprehension of the historical disclosure of the mediation of
                    > > >spirit with itself can only be seen retrospectively after the shapes of
                    > > >spirit have become moments and therefore have lost their
                    > absoluteness as
                    > > >pure substance (content) of the individual, after "....... the content
                    > > >is already the actuality reduced to a possiblility, its immediacy
                    > > >overcome." (translated by A.V. Miller). The overcoming of immediacy
                    > > >requires a long passage of time, both, historically (in-itself) and
                    > > >individually (in-and-for-itself), and is what Hegel calls elsewhere
                    > > >developing freedom.
                    > > >
                    > > >Regards,
                    > > >Beat Greuter
                    >
                    >

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