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Hegel and the rule of law in Pakistan
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- I usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley
- I have a feeling Stephen that the apple Eve tasted was the Asia tasted by Europe and behind the back, Europe tasted by Asia! Once fallen, as Zizek says that is our destiny. There's no second coming. So Asia bibi (sister) is as well as possible in the circumstances.By the way the other fanaticism hasn't quite blown over. The state of Maharashtra has upheld the arrest of three of the accused (civil rights activists) in the name of fomenting Maoism. 'Urban Maoists'.Things aren't as 'holocaustical' as they threaten to be, but they are not free of anxiety either.The point is that very little can happen to a middle class secular Hindu like me, except that the blows will be to my sense of myself -- as with many of the others I know.SrivatsOn Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 10:19 PM 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - Sorry - bibi is wife, not sister! Didi is sister.On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 7:08 AM R Srivatsan <r.srivats@...> wrote:I have a feeling Stephen that the apple Eve tasted was the Asia tasted by Europe and behind the back, Europe tasted by Asia! Once fallen, as Zizek says that is our destiny. There's no second coming. So Asia bibi (sister) is as well as possible in the circumstances.By the way the other fanaticism hasn't quite blown over. The state of Maharashtra has upheld the arrest of three of the accused (civil rights activists) in the name of fomenting Maoism. 'Urban Maoists'.Things aren't as 'holocaustical' as they threaten to be, but they are not free of anxiety either.The point is that very little can happen to a middle class secular Hindu like me, except that the blows will be to my sense of myself -- as with many of the others I know.SrivatsOn Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 10:19 PM 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - Stephen C.,The story of Asia Bibi reminds me of a story I clipped from the Indian news in the early 2000's, A man from an upper caste was outraged when a man from the lower caste stepped on his shadow. The upper-caste man hauled the lower caste man into court. What began as a dark comedy became a tragedy when the judge ruled in favor of the upper-caste man.Very little surprises me about the Middle East and India, pace Asia Bibi in Pakistan. The Rule of Law means different things in different centuries. In 1650 in England, for example, Thomas Hobbes made his case for the Rule of Law of the Leviathan (the Monarchy).Hobbes defended the Monarch against all critics -- and punishment should be swift and harsh. In 1780, Jeremy Bentham sought a correction -- the Rule of Law was for the "Greatest Good for the Greatest Number" -- under the Monarchy.As for Hegel -- he cheered with Napoleon rode through Jena in 1807 -- as any young Republican in 1807. No more Arbitrary Law! At least let there be a Constitutional Monarchy in Germany -- this seems to be Hegel's demand in his Philosophy of Right (1821).Does fanaticism also mean something different, depending on century? Didn't Hegel suggested in his LPR that Islam itself is ultimately fanatical, precisely because of its transcendental conception of God? If so -- then insofar as Pakistan remains a Muslim State -- what else can we expect? (I don't forget the USA support of the Taliban during our Cold War with the USSR in the 1980's)But what about Hinduism -- didn't a Hindu fanatic assassinate Gandhi? Aren't most of the world's fanatics inside the Middle East plus India? As we pray for Asia Bibi -- let us never be surprised by her fate -- and let us never advise folks in those places to do what we ourselves would never dare in those places.I don't see Democracy coming to Pakistan one day before it comes to India or Arabia. In my reading of Hegel's Philosophy of History (1830) the Protestants had a political advantage over the Catholics, and the future belonged to the Protestants. So, what happened in Germany from 1933-1945?I will bemoan Asia Bibi, yet I will not be dissuaded from understanding Nazi Germany. It is written: "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?" (Matt. 7:3)Thanks,--Paul============================================================================
On Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:50:14 AM CDT, 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbors. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan.Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley - :-) Paul!"Aren't most of the world's fanatics inside the Middle East plus India? As we pray for Asia Bibi -- let us never be surprised by her fate -- and let us never advise folks in those places to do what we ourselves would never dare in those places."Disagree with one, agree with two. There are many fanatics who hide behind the fence of liberalism not to mention conservatism too. Also, it is well known that mass murderers in the US are routinely characterized as follows: if white, they have a psychiatric disorder; if black, they are 'regressive' or of a violent temperament that is implicitly racially determined; if Asian, they are terrorist. These are putative categorizations that pre-exist rational analysis. So by definition, all violent acts in Asia will be fanatical. That is the language of Western modernity -- the sensible certainty is that fanaticism characterizes Asia.There is a dimension of the proselytizing Christian which is culturally anathema to many forms of Eastern culture. This is true of Hinduism, as it is of Islam. Being attacked, sentenced to death, or beheaded comes with the territory (that of preaching Christianity in hostile lands). I'm sure Sister Asia would not have been unduly shocked by her being imprisoned. The irrationality is shared both by the missionary who offers her life as ransom to Christ, and the Islamic law or Hindu fanatic who takes sovereign umbrage to her insult.SrivatsStephen C.,The story of Asia Bibi reminds me of a story I clipped from the Indian news in the early 2000's, A man from an upper caste was outraged when a man from the lower caste stepped on his shadow. The upper-caste man hauled the lower caste man into court. What began as a dark comedy became a tragedy when the judge ruled in favor of the upper-caste man.Very little surprises me about the Middle East and India, pace Asia Bibi in Pakistan. The Rule of Law means different things in different centuries. In 1650 in England, for example, Thomas Hobbes made his case for the Rule of Law of the Leviathan (the Monarchy).Hobbes defended the Monarch against all critics -- and punishment should be swift and harsh. In 1780, Jeremy Bentham sought a correction -- the Rule of Law was for the "Greatest Good for the Greatest Number" -- under the Monarchy.As for Hegel -- he cheered with Napoleon rode through Jena in 1807 -- as any young Republican in 1807. No more Arbitrary Law! At least let there be a Constitutional Monarchy in Germany -- this seems to be Hegel's demand in his Philosophy of Right (1821).Does fanaticism also mean something different, depending on century? Didn't Hegel suggested in his LPR that Islam itself is ultimately fanatical, precisely because of its transcendental conception of God? If so -- then insofar as Pakistan remains a Muslim State -- what else can we expect? (I don't forget the USA support of the Taliban during our Cold War with the USSR in the 1980's)But what about Hinduism -- didn't a Hindu fanatic assassinate Gandhi? Aren't most of the world's fanatics inside the Middle East plus India? As we pray for Asia Bibi -- let us never be surprised by her fate -- and let us never advise folks in those places to do what we ourselves would never dare in those places.I don't see Democracy coming to Pakistan one day before it comes to India or Arabia. In my reading of Hegel's Philosophy of History (1830) the Protestants had a political advantage over the Catholics, and the future belonged to the Protestants. So, what happened in Germany from 1933-1945?I will bemoan Asia Bibi, yet I will not be dissuaded from understanding Nazi Germany. It is written: "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?" (Matt. 7:3)Thanks,--Paul============================================================================On Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:50:14 AM CDT, 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbors. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan.Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - Paul, could you forward the clipping about the judge ruling in favor of the upper caste man to me? This seems too much even for Indian judges. I'll circulate it to my friends.
SrivatsStephen C.,The story of Asia Bibi reminds me of a story I clipped from the Indian news in the early 2000's, A man from an upper caste was outraged when a man from the lower caste stepped on his shadow. The upper-caste man hauled the lower caste man into court. What began as a dark comedy became a tragedy when the judge ruled in favor of the upper-caste man.Very little surprises me about the Middle East and India, pace Asia Bibi in Pakistan. The Rule of Law means different things in different centuries. In 1650 in England, for example, Thomas Hobbes made his case for the Rule of Law of the Leviathan (the Monarchy).Hobbes defended the Monarch against all critics -- and punishment should be swift and harsh. In 1780, Jeremy Bentham sought a correction -- the Rule of Law was for the "Greatest Good for the Greatest Number" -- under the Monarchy.As for Hegel -- he cheered with Napoleon rode through Jena in 1807 -- as any young Republican in 1807. No more Arbitrary Law! At least let there be a Constitutional Monarchy in Germany -- this seems to be Hegel's demand in his Philosophy of Right (1821).Does fanaticism also mean something different, depending on century? Didn't Hegel suggested in his LPR that Islam itself is ultimately fanatical, precisely because of its transcendental conception of God? If so -- then insofar as Pakistan remains a Muslim State -- what else can we expect? (I don't forget the USA support of the Taliban during our Cold War with the USSR in the 1980's)But what about Hinduism -- didn't a Hindu fanatic assassinate Gandhi? Aren't most of the world's fanatics inside the Middle East plus India? As we pray for Asia Bibi -- let us never be surprised by her fate -- and let us never advise folks in those places to do what we ourselves would never dare in those places.I don't see Democracy coming to Pakistan one day before it comes to India or Arabia. In my reading of Hegel's Philosophy of History (1830) the Protestants had a political advantage over the Catholics, and the future belonged to the Protestants. So, what happened in Germany from 1933-1945?I will bemoan Asia Bibi, yet I will not be dissuaded from understanding Nazi Germany. It is written: "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?" (Matt. 7:3)Thanks,--Paul============================================================================On Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:50:14 AM CDT, 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbors. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan.Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - As far as I know, this situation and its possibility is described in Ambedkar's Annihilation of Caste -- originally 18th Century Peshwa Rule, but plausible in contemporary India as far as the upper caste man taking offence. But the judge ruling in his favor? Not too sure about that part.On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 7:29 AM R Srivatsan <r.srivats@...> wrote:Paul, could you forward the clipping about the judge ruling in favor of the upper caste man to me? This seems too much even for Indian judges. I'll circulate it to my friends.
SrivatsStephen C.,The story of Asia Bibi reminds me of a story I clipped from the Indian news in the early 2000's, A man from an upper caste was outraged when a man from the lower caste stepped on his shadow. The upper-caste man hauled the lower caste man into court. What began as a dark comedy became a tragedy when the judge ruled in favor of the upper-caste man.Very little surprises me about the Middle East and India, pace Asia Bibi in Pakistan. The Rule of Law means different things in different centuries. In 1650 in England, for example, Thomas Hobbes made his case for the Rule of Law of the Leviathan (the Monarchy).Hobbes defended the Monarch against all critics -- and punishment should be swift and harsh. In 1780, Jeremy Bentham sought a correction -- the Rule of Law was for the "Greatest Good for the Greatest Number" -- under the Monarchy.As for Hegel -- he cheered with Napoleon rode through Jena in 1807 -- as any young Republican in 1807. No more Arbitrary Law! At least let there be a Constitutional Monarchy in Germany -- this seems to be Hegel's demand in his Philosophy of Right (1821).Does fanaticism also mean something different, depending on century? Didn't Hegel suggested in his LPR that Islam itself is ultimately fanatical, precisely because of its transcendental conception of God? If so -- then insofar as Pakistan remains a Muslim State -- what else can we expect? (I don't forget the USA support of the Taliban during our Cold War with the USSR in the 1980's)But what about Hinduism -- didn't a Hindu fanatic assassinate Gandhi? Aren't most of the world's fanatics inside the Middle East plus India? As we pray for Asia Bibi -- let us never be surprised by her fate -- and let us never advise folks in those places to do what we ourselves would never dare in those places.I don't see Democracy coming to Pakistan one day before it comes to India or Arabia. In my reading of Hegel's Philosophy of History (1830) the Protestants had a political advantage over the Catholics, and the future belonged to the Protestants. So, what happened in Germany from 1933-1945?I will bemoan Asia Bibi, yet I will not be dissuaded from understanding Nazi Germany. It is written: "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?" (Matt. 7:3)Thanks,--Paul============================================================================On Friday, November 2, 2018, 11:50:14 AM CDT, 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbors. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan.Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - So do I,Stephen.From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02 November 2018 17:41
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanI usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley - Dear all,I have just heard from some one who followed the Asia bibi case, that the issue is something very different from missionary work. Apparently, it is well known that in Pakistan, caste takes the form of religious difference. That caste is an issue should be easy enough to understand since Pakistan and India were one nation 60 years ago, and while Islam (or Christianity for that matter) are egalitarian in their preaching, cultural practice in all the religions draws in the worst aspects of the Hindu caste system in these parts of the world.In Pakistan, most of the oppressed castes are have converted to Christianity. So the upper/'lower' caste divide is one between Muslim and Christian. When you are Dalit, all social forces work to dupe you of any property you may have since being Dalit doesn't allow you to own land or immovable property. This process can and does occur through strange distortions of appeal to the law by the oppressors: including false charges of blasphemy (in Islam), of sexually assaulting upper caste women (In India, famously)...After much searching, my colleague found out what her crime was: Asia bibi is a Christian whose job was to clean drains and toilets. During some festive function, she served drinking water to a Muslim in a glass she used -- being untouchable. This perceived insult and the attendant caste resentment that the privileged feel in these parts of the world, coupled with all the other different processes that deprived her of property in one way or another, came together and the false charge that was made against her was that she tried to convert her neighbors.So she isn't a missionary, and the problem isn't one of Islam. She is a dalit in a Muslim country that is mired in the Hindu caste cultural practice of untouchability inherited from ancient India.This seems to be the true story.SrivatsOn Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 4:55 PM stephen theron stephentheron@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:So do I,Stephen.From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02 November 2018 17:41
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanI usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - Sorry about flogging the hobby horse, but I thought you should know!SrivatsOn Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 1:57 PM R Srivatsan <r.srivats@...> wrote:Dear all,I have just heard from some one who followed the Asia bibi case, that the issue is something very different from missionary work. Apparently, it is well known that in Pakistan, caste takes the form of religious difference. That caste is an issue should be easy enough to understand since Pakistan and India were one nation 60 years ago, and while Islam (or Christianity for that matter) are egalitarian in their preaching, cultural practice in all the religions draws in the worst aspects of the Hindu caste system in these parts of the world.In Pakistan, most of the oppressed castes are have converted to Christianity. So the upper/'lower' caste divide is one between Muslim and Christian. When you are Dalit, all social forces work to dupe you of any property you may have since being Dalit doesn't allow you to own land or immovable property. This process can and does occur through strange distortions of appeal to the law by the oppressors: including false charges of blasphemy (in Islam), of sexually assaulting upper caste women (In India, famously)...After much searching, my colleague found out what her crime was: Asia bibi is a Christian whose job was to clean drains and toilets. During some festive function, she served drinking water to a Muslim in a glass she used -- being untouchable. This perceived insult and the attendant caste resentment that the privileged feel in these parts of the world, coupled with all the other different processes that deprived her of property in one way or another, came together and the false charge that was made against her was that she tried to convert her neighbors.So she isn't a missionary, and the problem isn't one of Islam. She is a dalit in a Muslim country that is mired in the Hindu caste cultural practice of untouchability inherited from ancient India.This seems to be the true story.SrivatsOn Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 4:55 PM stephen theron stephentheron@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:So do I,Stephen.From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02 November 2018 17:41
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanI usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - I also see now Paul's response to which I responded seems to understand that this is a caste issue. So apologies -- my ignorance.
SrivatsOn Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 2:00 PM R Srivatsan <r.srivats@...> wrote:Sorry about flogging the hobby horse, but I thought you should know!SrivatsOn Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 1:57 PM R Srivatsan <r.srivats@...> wrote:Dear all,I have just heard from some one who followed the Asia bibi case, that the issue is something very different from missionary work. Apparently, it is well known that in Pakistan, caste takes the form of religious difference. That caste is an issue should be easy enough to understand since Pakistan and India were one nation 60 years ago, and while Islam (or Christianity for that matter) are egalitarian in their preaching, cultural practice in all the religions draws in the worst aspects of the Hindu caste system in these parts of the world.In Pakistan, most of the oppressed castes are have converted to Christianity. So the upper/'lower' caste divide is one between Muslim and Christian. When you are Dalit, all social forces work to dupe you of any property you may have since being Dalit doesn't allow you to own land or immovable property. This process can and does occur through strange distortions of appeal to the law by the oppressors: including false charges of blasphemy (in Islam), of sexually assaulting upper caste women (In India, famously)...After much searching, my colleague found out what her crime was: Asia bibi is a Christian whose job was to clean drains and toilets. During some festive function, she served drinking water to a Muslim in a glass she used -- being untouchable. This perceived insult and the attendant caste resentment that the privileged feel in these parts of the world, coupled with all the other different processes that deprived her of property in one way or another, came together and the false charge that was made against her was that she tried to convert her neighbors.So she isn't a missionary, and the problem isn't one of Islam. She is a dalit in a Muslim country that is mired in the Hindu caste cultural practice of untouchability inherited from ancient India.This seems to be the true story.SrivatsOn Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 4:55 PM stephen theron stephentheron@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:So do I,Stephen.From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02 November 2018 17:41
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanI usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - Srivats,I remain interested in this story about Asia Bibi in Pakistan. It is relevant to Hegel studies, too, insofar as Hegel wrote so much about World History and World Religion.Our efforts to bring Hegel into the 21st century entails perspectives such as these.As for Asia Bibi, the most interesting aspect of this story you shared today, in my opinion, is that this is not a case of Hindu caste system (directly) but of the Pakistan-style, Muslim caste system as inherited from India.I had no idea that there was any such cultural variation. This is interesting at a human interest level -- but also at a theoretical level. It shows, for example, that there is a razor sharp division between the Religions in Pakistan, as in India.I remember from a presentation of a Jewish reader in our Methodist Sunday school this year, that In Israel today, there are roads that are permitted for Jewish travelers only -- Muslims and Christians are not allowed upon this road. So, there remains a RANKING in society -- older than the oldest nation we know today. People will not easily let this thing go.To bring it back to Hegel studies, it belongs to Hegel's narrative of a Master/Slave relationship. For most of human history (as Hegel read it) the Master/Slave relationship was the predominant relationship between large groups of people. When Hegel was a young man, every nation in the world practiced Legal Slavery -- including Germany and England, Spain, France and Italy -- in their Colonies.By the time Hegel had written his PhG (1807), England and then Spain had passed new laws against the practice of Legal Slavery -- now making it Illegal for the first time in world history. After another 100 years, the vast majority of nations in the world had banned the practice. (Only Arabia and Africa held out well into the 20th century).What we see today in the case of Asia Bibi in Pakistan, is an individual case of the Master/Slave relationship in its death throes -- or so we hope today.All best,--Paul-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 2:47:18 AM CST, R Srivatsan r.srivats@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Dear all,I have just heard from some one who followed the Asia bibi case, that the issue is something very different from missionary work. Apparently, it is well known that in Pakistan, caste takes the form of religious difference. That caste is an issue should be easy enough to understand since Pakistan and India were one nation 60 years ago, and while Islam (or Christianity for that matter) are egalitarian in their preaching, cultural practice in all the religions draws in the worst aspects of the Hindu caste system in these parts of the world.In Pakistan, most of the oppressed castes are have converted to Christianity. So the upper/'lower' caste divide is one between Muslim and Christian. When you are Dalit, all social forces work to dupe you of any property you may have since being Dalit doesn't allow you to own land or immovable property. This process can and does occur through strange distortions of appeal to the law by the oppressors: including false charges of blasphemy (in Islam), of sexually assaulting upper caste women (In India, famously)....After much searching, my colleague found out what her crime was: Asia bibi is a Christian whose job was to clean drains and toilets. During some festive function, she served drinking water to a Muslim in a glass she used -- being untouchable. This perceived insult and the attendant caste resentment that the privileged feel in these parts of the world, coupled with all the other different processes that deprived her of property in one way or another, came together and the false charge that was made against her was that she tried to convert her neighbors.So she isn't a missionary, and the problem isn't one of Islam. She is a dalit in a Muslim country that is mired in the Hindu caste cultural practice of untouchability inherited from ancient India.This seems to be the true story.Srivats - Possibly and hopefully -- as far as your last point goes!
SrivatsSrivats,I remain interested in this story about Asia Bibi in Pakistan. It is relevant to Hegel studies, too, insofar as Hegel wrote so much about World History and World Religion.Our efforts to bring Hegel into the 21st century entails perspectives such as these.As for Asia Bibi, the most interesting aspect of this story you shared today, in my opinion, is that this is not a case of Hindu caste system (directly) but of the Pakistan-style, Muslim caste system as inherited from India.I had no idea that there was any such cultural variation. This is interesting at a human interest level -- but also at a theoretical level. It shows, for example, that there is a razor sharp division between the Religions in Pakistan, as in India.I remember from a presentation of a Jewish reader in our Methodist Sunday school this year, that In Israel today, there are roads that are permitted for Jewish travelers only -- Muslims and Christians are not allowed upon this road. So, there remains a RANKING in society -- older than the oldest nation we know today. People will not easily let this thing go.To bring it back to Hegel studies, it belongs to Hegel's narrative of a Master/Slave relationship. For most of human history (as Hegel read it) the Master/Slave relationship was the predominant relationship between large groups of people. When Hegel was a young man, every nation in the world practiced Legal Slavery -- including Germany and England, Spain, France and Italy -- in their Colonies.By the time Hegel had written his PhG (1807), England and then Spain had passed new laws against the practice of Legal Slavery -- now making it Illegal for the first time in world history. After another 100 years, the vast majority of nations in the world had banned the practice. (Only Arabia and Africa held out well into the 20th century).What we see today in the case of Asia Bibi in Pakistan, is an individual case of the Master/Slave relationship in its death throes -- or so we hope today.All best,--Paul-----------------------------------------------------------------------------On Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 2:47:18 AM CST, R Srivatsan r.srivats@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Dear all,I have just heard from some one who followed the Asia bibi case, that the issue is something very different from missionary work. Apparently, it is well known that in Pakistan, caste takes the form of religious difference. That caste is an issue should be easy enough to understand since Pakistan and India were one nation 60 years ago, and while Islam (or Christianity for that matter) are egalitarian in their preaching, cultural practice in all the religions draws in the worst aspects of the Hindu caste system in these parts of the world.In Pakistan, most of the oppressed castes are have converted to Christianity. So the upper/'lower' caste divide is one between Muslim and Christian. When you are Dalit, all social forces work to dupe you of any property you may have since being Dalit doesn't allow you to own land or immovable property. This process can and does occur through strange distortions of appeal to the law by the oppressors: including false charges of blasphemy (in Islam), of sexually assaulting upper caste women (In India, famously)....After much searching, my colleague found out what her crime was: Asia bibi is a Christian whose job was to clean drains and toilets. During some festive function, she served drinking water to a Muslim in a glass she used -- being untouchable. This perceived insult and the attendant caste resentment that the privileged feel in these parts of the world, coupled with all the other different processes that deprived her of property in one way or another, came together and the false charge that was made against her was that she tried to convert her neighbors.So she isn't a missionary, and the problem isn't one of Islam. She is a dalit in a Muslim country that is mired in the Hindu caste cultural practice of untouchability inherited from ancient India.This seems to be the true story.Srivats--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - But one must remember that dalit assertion or en masse conversion (to Buddhism or Christianity) are not actually individual phenomena, nor are they passive stoic responses. One doesn't know the inside story, but perhaps Asia bibi was assertive and dissenting in her action? In today's historical moment, many of the oppressed positions aren't like that of the slave in the master-slave representation. They are far more complex with a recognition of their condition and experience by the oppressed due to a history of pedagogy, perspectival development and global support for proud dissent and self-respect. These weren't perhaps of such importance in Hegel's world.SrvtsOn Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 9:27 PM R Srivatsan <r.srivats@...> wrote:Possibly and hopefully -- as far as your last point goes!
SrivatsSrivats,I remain interested in this story about Asia Bibi in Pakistan. It is relevant to Hegel studies, too, insofar as Hegel wrote so much about World History and World Religion.Our efforts to bring Hegel into the 21st century entails perspectives such as these.As for Asia Bibi, the most interesting aspect of this story you shared today, in my opinion, is that this is not a case of Hindu caste system (directly) but of the Pakistan-style, Muslim caste system as inherited from India.I had no idea that there was any such cultural variation. This is interesting at a human interest level -- but also at a theoretical level. It shows, for example, that there is a razor sharp division between the Religions in Pakistan, as in India.I remember from a presentation of a Jewish reader in our Methodist Sunday school this year, that In Israel today, there are roads that are permitted for Jewish travelers only -- Muslims and Christians are not allowed upon this road. So, there remains a RANKING in society -- older than the oldest nation we know today. People will not easily let this thing go.To bring it back to Hegel studies, it belongs to Hegel's narrative of a Master/Slave relationship. For most of human history (as Hegel read it) the Master/Slave relationship was the predominant relationship between large groups of people. When Hegel was a young man, every nation in the world practiced Legal Slavery -- including Germany and England, Spain, France and Italy -- in their Colonies.By the time Hegel had written his PhG (1807), England and then Spain had passed new laws against the practice of Legal Slavery -- now making it Illegal for the first time in world history. After another 100 years, the vast majority of nations in the world had banned the practice. (Only Arabia and Africa held out well into the 20th century).What we see today in the case of Asia Bibi in Pakistan, is an individual case of the Master/Slave relationship in its death throes -- or so we hope today.All best,--Paul-----------------------------------------------------------------------------On Wednesday, November 14, 2018, 2:47:18 AM CST, R Srivatsan r.srivats@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Dear all,I have just heard from some one who followed the Asia bibi case, that the issue is something very different from missionary work. Apparently, it is well known that in Pakistan, caste takes the form of religious difference. That caste is an issue should be easy enough to understand since Pakistan and India were one nation 60 years ago, and while Islam (or Christianity for that matter) are egalitarian in their preaching, cultural practice in all the religions draws in the worst aspects of the Hindu caste system in these parts of the world.In Pakistan, most of the oppressed castes are have converted to Christianity. So the upper/'lower' caste divide is one between Muslim and Christian. When you are Dalit, all social forces work to dupe you of any property you may have since being Dalit doesn't allow you to own land or immovable property. This process can and does occur through strange distortions of appeal to the law by the oppressors: including false charges of blasphemy (in Islam), of sexually assaulting upper caste women (In India, famously)....After much searching, my colleague found out what her crime was: Asia bibi is a Christian whose job was to clean drains and toilets. During some festive function, she served drinking water to a Muslim in a glass she used -- being untouchable. This perceived insult and the attendant caste resentment that the privileged feel in these parts of the world, coupled with all the other different processes that deprived her of property in one way or another, came together and the false charge that was made against her was that she tried to convert her neighbors.So she isn't a missionary, and the problem isn't one of Islam. She is a dalit in a Muslim country that is mired in the Hindu caste cultural practice of untouchability inherited from ancient India.This seems to be the true story.Srivats--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - I appreciate the information. It is hard to understand the passions involved. I see no reason for trying to convert a neighbour being a “charge”, let alone justifying a death sentence. Momentary anger would seem a more appropriate response to the alleged slight.Stephen CowleySent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:27 AMSubject: Re: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanDear all,I have just heard from some one who followed the Asia bibi case, that the issue is something very different from missionary work. Apparently, it is well known that in Pakistan, caste takes the form of religious difference. That caste is an issue should be easy enough to understand since Pakistan and India were one nation 60 years ago, and while Islam (or Christianity for that matter) are egalitarian in their preaching, cultural practice in all the religions draws in the worst aspects of the Hindu caste system in these parts of the world.In Pakistan, most of the oppressed castes are have converted to Christianity. So the upper/'lower' caste divide is one between Muslim and Christian. When you are Dalit, all social forces work to dupe you of any property you may have since being Dalit doesn't allow you to own land or immovable property. This process can and does occur through strange distortions of appeal to the law by the oppressors: including false charges of blasphemy (in Islam), of sexually assaulting upper caste women (In India, famously)....After much searching, my colleague found out what her crime was: Asia bibi is a Christian whose job was to clean drains and toilets. During some festive function, she served drinking water to a Muslim in a glass she used -- being untouchable. This perceived insult and the attendant caste resentment that the privileged feel in these parts of the world, coupled with all the other different processes that deprived her of property in one way or another, came together and the false charge that was made against her was that she tried to convert her neighbors.So she isn't a missionary, and the problem isn't one of Islam. She is a dalit in a Muslim country that is mired in the Hindu caste cultural practice of untouchability inherited from ancient India.This seems to be the true story.SrivatsOn Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 4:55 PM stephen theron stephentheron@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:So do I,Stephen.From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02 November 2018 17:41
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanI usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - This, I too cannot understand. However, I also don't live in what is called an Islamic 'theocratic' state. In India, the laws are secular -- except to mitigate the effects of caste prejudice, where in the name of democracy, specific Hindu caste practices (like untouchability) are forbidden. However, the practice of the law, the modes of reading evidence, passing judgment, etc., all often tend to revert to the cultural background of judges -- reminding one of Benjamin Cardozo's adages, "The great tides and currents which engulf the rest of men do not turn aside in their course and pass the judges by."In addition, social practices and beliefs are recalcitrant in their persistent misuse of the law to add injury to insult in case of caste atrocities.But this doesn't mean all is lost. There are many legal and bureaucratic practices that stun you by their commitment to a secular democratic life.SrivatsOn Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 6:24 AM 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I appreciate the information. It is hard to understand the passions involved. I see no reason for trying to convert a neighbour being a “charge”, let alone justifying a death sentence. Momentary anger would seem a more appropriate response to the alleged slight.Stephen CowleySent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:27 AMSubject: Re: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanDear all,I have just heard from some one who followed the Asia bibi case, that the issue is something very different from missionary work. Apparently, it is well known that in Pakistan, caste takes the form of religious difference. That caste is an issue should be easy enough to understand since Pakistan and India were one nation 60 years ago, and while Islam (or Christianity for that matter) are egalitarian in their preaching, cultural practice in all the religions draws in the worst aspects of the Hindu caste system in these parts of the world.In Pakistan, most of the oppressed castes are have converted to Christianity. So the upper/'lower' caste divide is one between Muslim and Christian. When you are Dalit, all social forces work to dupe you of any property you may have since being Dalit doesn't allow you to own land or immovable property. This process can and does occur through strange distortions of appeal to the law by the oppressors: including false charges of blasphemy (in Islam), of sexually assaulting upper caste women (In India, famously)....After much searching, my colleague found out what her crime was: Asia bibi is a Christian whose job was to clean drains and toilets. During some festive function, she served drinking water to a Muslim in a glass she used -- being untouchable. This perceived insult and the attendant caste resentment that the privileged feel in these parts of the world, coupled with all the other different processes that deprived her of property in one way or another, came together and the false charge that was made against her was that she tried to convert her neighbors.So she isn't a missionary, and the problem isn't one of Islam. She is a dalit in a Muslim country that is mired in the Hindu caste cultural practice of untouchability inherited from ancient India.This seems to be the true story.SrivatsOn Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 4:55 PM stephen theron stephentheron@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:So do I,Stephen.From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02 November 2018 17:41
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanI usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - To understand Pakistan, one must be able to live there and swim in the passions of that somewhat paradoxical state which celebrates Mohammed Ali Jinnah, who was a complete atheistic secular modernist if there ever was one, as the father of that nation, and yet has theocracy as its system. It calls for a different mindset.There are two trends in Islam one that is largely Shia, is about education, highly evolved thinking and elitism that leads to a representative democracy. The second, Sunni, is of commitment to the poor, bare faith, Sufism and a truly democratic trust in the ordinary person's judgment. Given the broad structure of the consciousness, the law has a hard face and what are seen today as primitively violent punishments, even akin to lynching. Yet, there is often a chance offered to the victim or the one who is offended by the criminal's act to condone and forgive the latter, and this can lead to mercy even in the face of a death sentence. (There is a beautiful film by Kiaorstami, a truly great Iranian film maker, called Close Up, which looks at this judicial process in the case of false impersonation). For this mercy to occur, the one offended must be an individual who isn't swayed by political passions.What happened to Asia bibi is perhaps an extreme distortion of a trend due to the extreme politicization of the issue of religion.SrivatsOn Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 7:32 AM R Srivatsan <r.srivats@...> wrote:This, I too cannot understand. However, I also don't live in what is called an Islamic 'theocratic' state. In India, the laws are secular -- except to mitigate the effects of caste prejudice, where in the name of democracy, specific Hindu caste practices (like untouchability) are forbidden. However, the practice of the law, the modes of reading evidence, passing judgment, etc., all often tend to revert to the cultural background of judges -- reminding one of Benjamin Cardozo's adages, "The great tides and currents which engulf the rest of men do not turn aside in their course and pass the judges by."In addition, social practices and beliefs are recalcitrant in their persistent misuse of the law to add injury to insult in case of caste atrocities.But this doesn't mean all is lost. There are many legal and bureaucratic practices that stun you by their commitment to a secular democratic life.SrivatsOn Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 6:24 AM 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I appreciate the information. It is hard to understand the passions involved. I see no reason for trying to convert a neighbour being a “charge”, let alone justifying a death sentence. Momentary anger would seem a more appropriate response to the alleged slight.Stephen CowleySent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:27 AMSubject: Re: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanDear all,I have just heard from some one who followed the Asia bibi case, that the issue is something very different from missionary work. Apparently, it is well known that in Pakistan, caste takes the form of religious difference. That caste is an issue should be easy enough to understand since Pakistan and India were one nation 60 years ago, and while Islam (or Christianity for that matter) are egalitarian in their preaching, cultural practice in all the religions draws in the worst aspects of the Hindu caste system in these parts of the world.In Pakistan, most of the oppressed castes are have converted to Christianity. So the upper/'lower' caste divide is one between Muslim and Christian. When you are Dalit, all social forces work to dupe you of any property you may have since being Dalit doesn't allow you to own land or immovable property. This process can and does occur through strange distortions of appeal to the law by the oppressors: including false charges of blasphemy (in Islam), of sexually assaulting upper caste women (In India, famously)....After much searching, my colleague found out what her crime was: Asia bibi is a Christian whose job was to clean drains and toilets. During some festive function, she served drinking water to a Muslim in a glass she used -- being untouchable. This perceived insult and the attendant caste resentment that the privileged feel in these parts of the world, coupled with all the other different processes that deprived her of property in one way or another, came together and the false charge that was made against her was that she tried to convert her neighbors.So she isn't a missionary, and the problem isn't one of Islam. She is a dalit in a Muslim country that is mired in the Hindu caste cultural practice of untouchability inherited from ancient India.This seems to be the true story.SrivatsOn Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 4:55 PM stephen theron stephentheron@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:So do I,Stephen.From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02 November 2018 17:41
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanI usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193--R Srivatsan
Anveshi Research Centre for Women's Studies
2-2-18/2/A Durgabai Deshmukh Colony
Hyderabad 500 007
Office Phone: +91 40 27423690
Mobile: +91 94404 80762, +91 77027 11656
Home Phone +91 40 2773 5193 - Yes, it was very interesting.Stephen Theron.From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 16 November 2018 01:32
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanI appreciate the information. It is hard to understand the passions involved. I see no reason for trying to convert a neighbour being a “charge”, let alone justifying a death sentence. Momentary anger would seem a more appropriate response to the alleged slight.Stephen CowleySent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 8:27 AMSubject: Re: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanDear all,I have just heard from some one who followed the Asia bibi case, that the issue is something very different from missionary work. Apparently, it is well known that in Pakistan, caste takes the form of religious difference. That caste is an issue should be easy enough to understand since Pakistan and India were one nation 60 years ago, and while Islam (or Christianity for that matter) are egalitarian in their preaching, cultural practice in all the religions draws in the worst aspects of the Hindu caste system in these parts of the world.In Pakistan, most of the oppressed castes are have converted to Christianity. So the upper/'lower' caste divide is one between Muslim and Christian. When you are Dalit, all social forces work to dupe you of any property you may have since being Dalit doesn't allow you to own land or immovable property. This process can and does occur through strange distortions of appeal to the law by the oppressors: including false charges of blasphemy (in Islam), of sexually assaulting upper caste women (In India, famously)....After much searching, my colleague found out what her crime was: Asia bibi is a Christian whose job was to clean drains and toilets. During some festive function, she served drinking water to a Muslim in a glass she used -- being untouchable. This perceived insult and the attendant caste resentment that the privileged feel in these parts of the world, coupled with all the other different processes that deprived her of property in one way or another, came together and the false charge that was made against her was that she tried to convert her neighbors.So she isn't a missionary, and the problem isn't one of Islam. She is a dalit in a Muslim country that is mired in the Hindu caste cultural practice of untouchability inherited from ancient India.This seems to be the true story.SrivatsOn Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 4:55 PM stephen theron stephentheron@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:So do I,Stephen.From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Stephen Cowley' stephen.cowley@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02 November 2018 17:41
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hegel] Hegel and the rule of law in PakistanI usually keep my hobby horses off this list, but I’ve been following the story of Asia Bibi in the press. She is a Christian lady who was apparently sentenced to death in Pakistan for blasphemy after an argument over a bowl of water in the course of which she attempted to preach the Gospel to her neighbours. After eight years in solitary confinement, she has been released by the Supreme court there:The connection with Hegel is that Hegel upheld the rule of law against fanaticism of various kinds in Europe. I know that western philosophy is (or at least was) taught in some cities in southern Pakistan. Now that the judges are being threatened by politicians and religious leaders, the inheritance seems to be at risk. This seems as significant to me as some of the other current affairs from the Indian sub-continent discussed on this list, which seem to have blown over.I hope that things turn out well for our sister Asia.Stephen Cowley--R Srivatsan
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