Could anyone identify the source of this quotation from Hegel:

"Such a death, the suffering and pain of death, is the element of the reconciliation of the Spirit with itself."

It's quoted by Jacques Choron in his 'Death and Western Thought', p. 154. He gives the German as:

"Dieser Tod also, das Leiden, der Schmerz des Todes, der ist dies Element der Versoehnung des Geistes mit
sich, mit dem was er an sich ist."

Thanks very much,
Chris Ellis

12 Brook Street
Wivenhoe
Essex
CO7 9DS
Tel: 01206 826469
Mobile: 07799 571953

Film & TV Extras urgently required in your area - See Yourself in major Films & TV? Call 0907 1512440 to Register. calls cost 150pm




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Chris Ellis,

The source of that quotation is Hegel's manuscript for
his lectures on the philosophy of religion, part 3, the
Consummate Religion. Hegel refers to Christ in this
section. I'll type in the quotation with some of its
previous text so Hegel's context will be clearer.
Hegel says,

"However, the pinnacle of the Finitude
is not actual life in its temporal course,
but rather Death, the anguish of Death.
Death is the pinnacle of negation...the
limit, Finitude in its highest extreme.
The temporal and complete existence
of the Divine Idea in the present is
envisaged only in Christ's death.
(a) The highest divestment of the
Divine Idea...is expressed as follows:
'God has died, God himself is dead.'
This is a monstrous, fearful picture,
which brings before the imagination
the deepest abyss of cleavage. But
(b) at the same time this Death is to this
extent the highest Love. It is precisely
Love that is the consciousness of the
identity of the Divine and the Human...
(aa) The speculative aspect is that the
Son goes to Death as the Divine -- He
who is, on His own, Absolute Love...
On the basis of this Death, the assertion
is justified that Christ was given for-us,
and that his Death may be represented
as a sacrificial Death, as the act of
absolute satisfaction...In general, Death
is both the extreme limit of Finitude and
at the same time the sublation of natural
Finitude, of immediate existence, the
overcoming of divestment, the dissolution
of limitation...
(aaa) Although Death appears here as
natural Death, this Death, this suffering,
the anguish of Death, is the element of
the Reconciliation of Spirit with itself,
with what it is and contains implicitly."
(Hegel, 1824, LECTURES ON THE
PHILOSOPHY OF RELIGION, trans.
Hodgson, 1989, vol. 3, pp. 125-126)

There it is, Chris. I hope this helps. By the way, Hegel's
statement there, 'God has died,' is taken from a Lutheran
Hymn. It is not meant to imply Nietzsche's later atheistic
exploitation of that phrase, rather, it implies the religious
attitude of contemplating the Death of Jesus.

Best regards,
--Paul Trejo

----- Original Message -----
From: "chris ellis " <chrisbellis@...>
To: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 8:52 AM
Subject: [hegel] Quotation


> Could anyone identify the source of this quotation from Hegel:
>
> "Such a death, the suffering and pain of death, is the element of the
reconciliation of the Spirit with itself."
>
> It's quoted by Jacques Choron in his 'Death and Western Thought', p. 154.
He gives the German as:
> "Dieser Tod also, das Leiden, der Schmerz des Todes, der ist dies Element
der Versoehnung des Geistes mit
> sich, mit dem was er an sich ist."
>
> Thanks very much,
> Chris Ellis