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AW: Re: [hegel] Re: Hegel's "mysticism" and Christian doctrine

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  • greuterb@bluewin.ch
    ... Von: petrejo@sbcglobal.net Datum: 06.01.2012 18:28 An: Betreff: Re: [hegel] Re: Hegel s mysticism and Christian doctrine In
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 7 6:54 AM
      ----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
      Von: petrejo@...
      Datum: 06.01.2012 18:28
      An: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
      Betreff:
      Re: [hegel] Re: Hegel's "mysticism" and Christian doctrine

      In response to the Tue13Sep11 post by Beat
      Greuter:

      > John,
      >  In this sense you should found a secret society which is devoted to
      > Hegel as a theologian with
      its members looking at him as their master.
      > With this perhaps you will agree with me you destroy Hegel as a
      >
      philosopher of reason. This is a great pity since after Analytical
      > Philosophy has become caught in its cul-de-sac
      Hegel has become
      > (at least for some of its adherents) a kind of anchor for having
      > prepared the philosophical
      resources to overcome its intractable
      > contradictions, a light in the history of interpretation of Hegel's
      >
      philosophy, a light which you intend to blow out again as so many
      > did before in the history of Hegel reading.
      >
      Regards,
      > Beat Greuter
       
      Beat, the choices you offer are too dualist -- too Either/Or.  
      It is not a one-sided matter
      of:  'Either Theology Or Philosophy
      and No Middle Ground', because Hegel offers a Third Way.



      Paul, so, there is
      something between as if I ask you 'does God exist or not?' your answer would be 'it is something between'. But you have
      to decide. A theologian is somebody who makes rational thoughts around a given dogma. With this he consolidates and
      renews the dogma, but he remains within this given dogma even if he is critical and / or adopts philosophical thoughts.
      A philosopher is somebody who thinks in concepts from what is. This is a fundamental difference which you cannot
      overcome so easily. One can demonstrate this with help of the philosophies in the Middle Ages. These philosophers
      coming from different religious surroundings (Avicenna, Averroes, Thomas, Albertus, Abaelard etc.) tried to develop
      further the concepts which first were generated by Plato and Aristotle (being, ideas, universals, abstractions, genus,
      proprium, differentia, accidents, soul, nous etc.). But when in doing so the ecclesiastical dogma according to its
      theological agents was hurt they had to decide.

      Regards,
      Beat



      The Analytical school, I have found so far, has a
      fixed idea about
      Religion.  That fixed idea arrests the concept of Religion at its
      lowest and most primitive
      forms.  Yet there is an organic aspect
      to Religion - an organic aspect that Hegel attempted to reveal in
      his Lectures
      on the Philosophy of Religion (1818-1831). 

      Religion is not all one thing - i.e. the superstitions that circulated in

      Europe for so many centuries.  There are aspects of Religion that
      you evidently have not explored. 

      For example, as
      Hegel showed in his theory that Christianity is
      the Consummate Religion (volume 3), Christianity is the only
      Religion
      to have grown up alongside Greco-Roman Philosophy,
      in particular the Stoic ideology and Neoplatonism.

      For the reason,
      the Early Fathers of the Second Century were
      skilled not only in NT dogma, but also in Plato and Aristotle.
      These are
      the beginnings of a movement that carried Western
      Civilization along for nearly 20 centuries.

      All the European
      superstitions in the world cannot devalue a
      movement so strong and vital as this culture.

      Best regards,
      --Paul Trejo,
      MA
    • john
      ... But first you would need to know what the word God means. And you would have to know what the word exists means. In the present context, of course, you
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 7 7:12 AM
        --- In hegel@yahoogroups.com, "greuterb@..." <greuterb@...> wrote:

        > Paul, so, there is
        > something between as if I ask you 'does God exist or not?' your answer would be 'it is something between'. But you have
        > to decide.


        But first you would need to know what the word "God" means. And you would have to know what the word "exists" means.

        In the present context, of course, you would need, in particular, to know what these words mean to Hegel. That is what we are supposed to be talking about.

        As you well know, Hegel devotes a good deal of time and space in his Logic to coming to an understanding of what "exists" means. From the first category all the way through the doctrine of Essence "to exist" has a whole spectrum of meanings.

        As for the word "God", well,.....

        John
      • greuterb
        ... John, well, ... , then tell me where I can find God s spectrum of meanings in the Doctrine of Essence or elsewhere in the Logic!? Regards, Beat Greuter
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 8 11:56 PM
          Am 07.01.2012 16:12, John writes:

          > --- In hegel@yahoogroups.com <mailto:hegel%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "greuterb@..." <greuterb@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Paul, so, there is
          > > something between as if I ask you 'does God exist or not?' your
          > answer would be 'it is something between'. But you have
          > > to decide.
          >
          > But first you would need to know what the word "God" means. And you
          > would have to know what the word "exists" means.
          >
          > In the present context, of course, you would need, in particular, to
          > know what these words mean to Hegel. That is what we are supposed to
          > be talking about.
          >
          > As you well know, Hegel devotes a good deal of time and space in his
          > Logic to coming to an understanding of what "exists" means. From the
          > first category all the way through the doctrine of Essence "to exist"
          > has a whole spectrum of meanings.
          >
          > As for the word "God", well,.....
          >



          John,

          "well, ...", then tell me where I can find God's 'spectrum of meanings'
          in the Doctrine of Essence or elsewhere in the Logic!?

          Regards,
          Beat Greuter


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stephen
          Beat makes a clear point here, in response to Paul. Yet the chapter on Revealed Religion (in Ph.G.)gives a different impression. But it is not self-evident
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 9 6:07 AM
            Beat makes a clear point here, in response to Paul. Yet the chapter on Revealed Religion (in Ph.G.)gives a different impression. But it is not self-evident that "you have to decide" between the alternatives as put by Beat, e.g. the answer to "Does God exist or not?" may well be "something between", and that in a way that can be made and even is acceptable to "theologians" (see also "Absolute Knowledge": we even, or still more, move away from the thought of our own existence). Existence is for Hegel (a theologian?) itself a finite category. Besides which the term "God" is itself in some respects figurative, as he shows. These things are also not foreign to the discipline of mystical or ascetical theology, to which group again Hegel may well be ascribed.
            It is quite true that some philosophers were not free with respect to religious dogma, but this was a political situation merely and not one of conceptual necessity.
            Hegel pursued his philosophy without in any way formally renouncing Lutheran Christianity. But he chose to follow "what is" (Beat´s phrase) where it led.
            Besides, the dogmatic phase of Christian interpretation may be seen as a cultural moment, not as a constant. Thus the last (Roman Catholic) General Council was unique in explicitly renouncing any wish to define dogmas. This can also be built into Newman´s not especially original thesis of "the development of Christian doctrine". Since this is itself a doctrine it must, by the doctrine, develop. This developing might include anything, for example a development consonant with Hegelian dialectical philosophy according to which anything other than the Absolute is identical with its opposite, in a way that Hegel makes precise. For application and example of this one might consult Hans Küng´s "The Incarnation of God asccording to Hegel", subtitled "A Prolegomena to a Future Christology".

            Stephen.

            --- In hegel@yahoogroups.com, "greuterb@..." <greuterb@...> wrote:
            >
            > ----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----
            > Von: petrejo@...
            > Datum: 06.01.2012 18:28
            > An: <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
            > Betreff:
            > Re: [hegel] Re: Hegel's "mysticism" and Christian doctrine
            >
            > In response to the Tue13Sep11 post by Beat
            > Greuter:
            >
            > > John,
            > >  In this sense you should found a secret society which is devoted to
            > > Hegel as a theologian with
            > its members looking at him as their master.
            > > With this perhaps you will agree with me you destroy Hegel as a
            > >
            > philosopher of reason. This is a great pity since after Analytical
            > > Philosophy has become caught in its cul-de-sac
            > Hegel has become
            > > (at least for some of its adherents) a kind of anchor for having
            > > prepared the philosophical
            > resources to overcome its intractable
            > > contradictions, a light in the history of interpretation of Hegel's
            > >
            > philosophy, a light which you intend to blow out again as so many
            > > did before in the history of Hegel reading.
            > >
            > Regards,
            > > Beat Greuter
            >  
            > Beat, the choices you offer are too dualist -- too Either/Or.  
            > It is not a one-sided matter
            > of:  'Either Theology Or Philosophy
            > and No Middle Ground', because Hegel offers a Third Way.
            >
            >
            >
            > Paul, so, there is
            > something between as if I ask you 'does God exist or not?' your answer would be 'it is something between'. But you have
            > to decide. A theologian is somebody who makes rational thoughts around a given dogma. With this he consolidates and
            > renews the dogma, but he remains within this given dogma even if he is critical and / or adopts philosophical thoughts.
            > A philosopher is somebody who thinks in concepts from what is. This is a fundamental difference which you cannot
            > overcome so easily. One can demonstrate this with help of the philosophies in the Middle Ages. These philosophers
            > coming from different religious surroundings (Avicenna, Averroes, Thomas, Albertus, Abaelard etc.) tried to develop
            > further the concepts which first were generated by Plato and Aristotle (being, ideas, universals, abstractions, genus,
            > proprium, differentia, accidents, soul, nous etc.). But when in doing so the ecclesiastical dogma according to its
            > theological agents was hurt they had to decide.
            >
            > Regards,
            > Beat
            >
            >
            >
            > The Analytical school, I have found so far, has a
            > fixed idea about
            > Religion.  That fixed idea arrests the concept of Religion at its
            > lowest and most primitive
            > forms.  Yet there is an organic aspect
            > to Religion - an organic aspect that Hegel attempted to reveal in
            > his Lectures
            > on the Philosophy of Religion (1818-1831). 
            >
            > Religion is not all one thing - i.e. the superstitions that circulated in
            >
            > Europe for so many centuries.  There are aspects of Religion that
            > you evidently have not explored. 
            >
            > For example, as
            > Hegel showed in his theory that Christianity is
            > the Consummate Religion (volume 3), Christianity is the only
            > Religion
            > to have grown up alongside Greco-Roman Philosophy,
            > in particular the Stoic ideology and Neoplatonism.
            >
            > For the reason,
            > the Early Fathers of the Second Century were
            > skilled not only in NT dogma, but also in Plato and Aristotle.
            > These are
            > the beginnings of a movement that carried Western
            > Civilization along for nearly 20 centuries.
            >
            > All the European
            > superstitions in the world cannot devalue a
            > movement so strong and vital as this culture.
            >
            > Best regards,
            > --Paul Trejo,
            > MA
            >
          • john
            ... Just to begin with, Hegel deals with the ontological argument for the existence of God at some length and in a number of places in the SL. But if you are
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 9 1:08 PM
              --- In hegel@yahoogroups.com, greuterb <greuterb@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > "well, ...", then tell me where I can find God's 'spectrum of meanings'
              > in the Doctrine of Essence or elsewhere in the Logic!?
              >
              > Regards,
              > Beat Greuter


              Just to begin with, Hegel deals with the ontological argument for the existence of God at some length and in a number of places in the SL.

              But if you are interested in what the word "God" means to Hegel, then you would, perhaps, find his lectures on the philosophy of religion of interest, where he goes into this matter at much length.

              John
            • greuterb
              ... meanings ... existence of God at some length and in a number of places in the SL. The only question here is whether there is a category or concept God
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 10 11:24 AM
                --- In hegel@yahoogroups.com, "john" <jgbardis@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In hegel@yahoogroups.com, greuterb <greuterb@> wrote:
                > >
                > > "well, ...", then tell me where I can find God's 'spectrum of
                meanings'
                > > in the Doctrine of Essence or elsewhere in the Logic!?
                > >
                > > Regards,
                > > Beat Greuter
                >
                >
                > Just to begin with, Hegel deals with the ontological argument for the
                existence of God at some length and in a number of places in the SL.

                The only question here is whether there is a category or concept 'God'
                in Hegel's Logic or not. If not, we cannot follow its spectrum of
                meaning from where it comes and where it goes and each use and mention
                of God in the SL is metaphorically speaking and/or has a historical
                reference, both not thought and not appropriate as an ontological
                argument for the existence of God outside of the conceptual path of the SL.


                > But if you are interested in what the word "God" means to Hegel, then
                you would, perhaps, find his lectures on the philosophy of religion of
                interest, where he goes into this matter at much length.

                In the Philosophy of Religion Hegel shows the religious consciousness
                looking for the absolute - God. The logical development of the 'meaning'
                of the absolute is in accordance with the logical development of the
                religious consciousness involved mediating the absolute (as in then
                PhdG). There is no meaning for Hegel as an external observer having a
                truth or object independent from the religious consciousness or another
                transcendental meaning.

                Regards,
                Beat Greuter
              • john
                ... To get back to the point that you raised--you asked what one might answer when asked--Does God exist? You seemed to think that there were only two possible
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 10 3:03 PM
                  --- In hegel@yahoogroups.com, greuterb <greuterb@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In hegel@yahoogroups.com, "john" <jgbardis@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > --- In hegel@yahoogroups.com, greuterb <greuterb@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > "well, ...", then tell me where I can find God's 'spectrum of
                  > meanings'
                  > > > in the Doctrine of Essence or elsewhere in the Logic!?
                  > > >
                  > > > Regards,
                  > > > Beat Greuter
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Just to begin with, Hegel deals with the ontological argument for the
                  > existence of God at some length and in a number of places in the SL.
                  >
                  > The only question here is whether there is a category or concept 'God'
                  > in Hegel's Logic or not. If not, we cannot follow its spectrum of
                  > meaning from where it comes and where it goes and each use and mention
                  > of God in the SL is metaphorically speaking and/or has a historical
                  > reference, both not thought and not appropriate as an ontological
                  > argument for the existence of God outside of the conceptual path of the SL.
                  >
                  >
                  > > But if you are interested in what the word "God" means to Hegel, then
                  > you would, perhaps, find his lectures on the philosophy of religion of
                  > interest, where he goes into this matter at much length.
                  >
                  > In the Philosophy of Religion Hegel shows the religious consciousness
                  > looking for the absolute - God. The logical development of the 'meaning'
                  > of the absolute is in accordance with the logical development of the
                  > religious consciousness involved mediating the absolute (as in then
                  > PhdG). There is no meaning for Hegel as an external observer having a
                  > truth or object independent from the religious consciousness or another
                  > transcendental meaning.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Beat Greuter
                  >

                  To get back to the point that you raised--you asked what one might answer when asked--Does God exist? You seemed to think that there were only two possible answers--yes or no. But what do you mean by "exists"? The Logic develops this concept at great length from its first category all the way through the Doctrine of Essence. And what does the word "God" mean, and in this context, what does Hegel mean by the word? To gain insight into what Hegel means by the word "God" by an indepth study of the logic would be very difficult. The place that Hegel deals in particular with what he means by this word is in his lectures on the philosophy of religion. The first volume, especially, deals with the Concept of religion. But all this is very much beyond us. I suppose you were right originally when you suggested that these matters should only be dealt with in secret. If this subject interests you, though, I sugggest you take it up with Paul T.

                  JOhn
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