- Jan 9
I will just note that your premise - “there is no such thing in nature (or logic) as an unfulfillable capacity” - is ridiculous on its face and demonstrates the distance between the Scholastic and modern mind.
There is no annihilation of the finite in Hegel. There is a mutually supporting vanishing and resurrection of the moments that is the fluid infinite movement of the dialectic. When this movement is sublated there is both a suspension - the movement gives way to the absolute form that fixes the movement - and a preservation - the difference of the previously finite moments carries over as an implicit inner difference.
The inscrutability of the infinite - and thus one would presume of an infinite intellect if there were such a thing (which there is not) - for a finite intellect falls away in Hegel’s speculative philosophy in case you have not noticed.
How this comes about is the interesting story of what the infinite is for Hegel and how Hegel’s infinite is generated by finite intellect - again, in case you have not noticed. This I have explained many times. Hegel’s explanation is evident as his speculative expositions.
So, this should be a strong indication that something is amiss with your reading of Hegel. Hegel never says the infinite when properly comprehended as the true infinite (not the spurious theological sense of the infinite) is inscrutable. So, yes Hegel does contradict Aquinas.
Hegel does not look towards absolute knowledge at the end of the Phenomenology. He has us arrive at absolute knowledge which is finally manifest as the achieved standpoint of science. To think speculatively, we need to be educated to the standpoint of science and become absolute knowers which has nothing to do with the theological notion of being one with the absolute or one with the infinite which is mistakenly taken to transcend our finite existence.
So, absolute knowing is not something we have. It is the standpoint we come to occupy. Moreover, the fluidity or movement is what is infinite for Hegel. That is why the phrase “infinite movement of the concept” is a commonplace in Hegel.
What is fixed is one-sided, not eternal. What is fixed is always determinate and thus finite. What is fixed either with respect to being or the good is not a metaphysical absolute. You continue to make these basic mistakes because you are inappropriately trying to read Hegel as a continuation of Aquinas.
Because you misunderstand what Hegel means by absolute knowing, you misunderstand the nature of the opposition between the reader and natural consciousness. If as you propose there is an absolute divide between finite and infinite mind (remembering that there is no such thing as infinite mind) then what happens in the Phenomenology should have no relevance to the speculative science that follows.
But Hegel tells us that the Phenomenology is an education to the standpoint of science, an education to the standpoint of what for Hegel will be an infinite thinking by a finite intellect, the intellect that is given an exposition in the Encyclopedia.
As I read the Phenomenology, this education is not complete until the opposition between the reader and natural consciousness is resolved.
Allegorically, the resolution of this opposition is manifest in Revealed Religion when god - the infinite - becomes a man. What Hegel most values about Christian myth is how the opposition between the finite and infinite is resolved in the mythical story of the person of Christ.
Absolute knowing is this resolution in the domain of philosophy.
You do realize that to talk the way you do about Hegel is disqualifying in the eyes of contemporary Hegel scholars. To talk the way, you do is to invite immediate and emphatic dismissal. You do realize there is no audience among serious scholars for what you are saying.
- Alan
From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 6:47 AM
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hegel] Para 118 PhSWhether I am struggling or you are panicking is not the issue here, surely. You raise suspicions if you begin in this way.
The point you point out, infinite intellect, is met by Aquinas insofar as he reasons to the conclusion, arrived at by Augustine long before and surely Aristotle, since he calls thought theos, that mind is capax Dei. The next premise would be that there is no such thing in nature (or logic) as an unfulfillable capacity, the conclusion then being that mind is potentially divine as measured against the actual divinity or mind. So mind as mind is infinite. All we have to do is to realise this. Now the ambiguity on "realise" here speaks loudly for Hegel's Absolute Idealism. Thus, realising this, coming to know this, brings about (a second sense of realise) the annihilation of the finite in the way or sense described by Hegel in not a few places (start with Enc. 50 perhaps). One might read the last paragraph cited at the end of the Encyclopaedia, not without considering what Hegel meant by citing it and just there too.
It is anyhow infinite for Hegel, as for me, i.e. we have to be clear what we are disagreeing upon exactly. Of course I am not dependent upon either Aquinas or Hegel for my statement. The infinite in itself would have to be unknowable by us finite beings, otherwise it would not be infinite, as confronted by someone having found out something about him or her (it has to be personal or transpersonal). Hence Aquinas, again, says that we know most about God when we klnow we know nothing about him. I do not believe Hegel contradicts this, if one investigates carefully. Both he and Aquinas accepted the Scriptural saying: "This is eternal life, to know God ..." But they also accept that such knowledge requires loss, in some sense, of "this life you are living now" (to cite Schrödinger).
This means we do not even know what knowledge means as attributed to God, to the Infinite. Hegel looks, then, towards absolute knowledge, at the end of the Phen.Spirit. He does not say, in the required sense, that we have it, He could not, since his whole logic is based upon and concludes with the fluidity (of course under certain finite conditions, again) of all and each not merely of the categories but equally of all language, essentially finite, and every bit of it, beginning with "this soulless word "is").
That is, his is a negative theology, and just like the negative theology recognised in theological teaching, so this does not mean the supersession of theology as such, Aristotle's or Hegel's, but the final self-contradiction discoverable in any concrete assertion we might make. This is what energises our moving on to the Idea, in life as in logic, as witness, Hegel remarks, any number of popular proverbs.
Now, what do I say "prior to this point", in my previous note of yesterday. I say that the opposition that you fasten upon as central is natural to all and every finite assertion, Therefore it cannot dominate over the rest as what the rest exemplifies (unless within a very special ontology), cannot be "the main issue", as you say, for mind and its phenomenology. But one must also attend to what I say to the same end after this point.
So, having once again taken up the challenge you mention I consider "good" as for many a prime example of a metaphysical absolute. It as, as Aquinas again establishes on his premises at least, an ens rationis only, viz. it is itself properly Being but Being as offered to the for us finite faculty of will.
Stephen Theron.
From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Alan Ponikvar' ponikvaraj@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 08 January 2019 15:36
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [hegel] Para 118 PhSI see here that you are struggling to make a point: this opposition between the reader and natural consciousness cannot be the main issue of the Phenomenology.
However, nothing you say prior to stating this point in any evident way leads up to or supports this point.
As for the good, its place in a metaphysics does not relate to what might be discussed in heaven since as I have point out often enough there is no such thing as an infinite intellect.
I am still waiting for anyone on this site to take up my challenge to find any passage in Hegel that would suggest otherwise
- Alan
From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2019 7:33 AM
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hegel] Para 118 PhSFear of error can, psychologically or in other ways, be fear of the truth, just as good and evil can be the same (I do not mean as an instance merely).. Hence fear as a phenomenon, like all other phenomena, taken separately, are cancelled in the Idea. This Hegel claims to establish without separate consideration of every phenomenon, the foundation here being the sameness of being and nothing.
So I would think that the opposition between the reader and natural consciousness is the same, as instance, as the general opposition of consciousness.. This opposition is thus a natural potentiality of thought. That not all actualise it is again a phenomenon and hence both true and false, as one can discover in conversation with even the most unsophisticated individuals, partly, of course, because the mind of such a one, too, is an abstraction when considered on its own. We have to go the whole way here if Hegel's thought is worth anything. What, then, about "worth"? Well, he proves logically, what had long been understood, that there is no place oin metaphysics for the concept of value, i.e., as McTaggart would say, it is not discussed in heaven; and just as Mephistopheles told and showed Faust that he, M., was in hell, despite appearances, so, we may hope, are we in heaven, from which, like Satan again, we may, all the same, fall.
Perhaps I digress. "Good", volition, is the last category to yield to the absolute idea. But yield it does. What I am wanting to get at is that this opposition between the reader and natural consciousness cannot be the main issue of the Phenomenology, as leading to a self-conflicting and hence futile reason. Again though, I must concede, the futile may not be futile. The opposition of all finite consciousness in itself has, rather, to be the issue. Thus he defines the finite and its "ideality".
Stephen Theron.
From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Alan Ponikvar' ponikvaraj@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 07 January 2019 19:07
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [hegel] Para 118 PhSTo show how a particular reference and its context differ let me go back to one example I have been using..
We are observing two colleagues in a medical lab discussing a procedure. One says to the other “This should work”.. The particular reference is the ‘this’. The context that makes this reference intelligible is the wealth of shared knowledge about medicine and lab procedure.
In this way the context can be distinguished from the particular reference. And I think it should be evident enough that this context is not ontological. It refers to what the two colleagues know. As such, context enables one to understand the significance of the ‘this’ as stated. Without understanding the significance one cannot even know what the ‘this’ is referring to.
And even when talking about space and time as contexts, it is what we know about how moments function as temporal or spatial that informs any particular direct reference. A point in time signifies differently than a point in space. We need to know this difference to intelligibly say ‘now’ or ‘here’.
As for the moments of a dialectical unity, in any speculative derivation we begin with the moments given as separate and then find that they cannot be kept separate but instead mutually implicate.
This is particularly evident in Being where, for example, there is something and other which when taken as if determinately distinct opposed moments exhibit their fluidity as one moment calls forth the other. The moments as distinct cycle and show themselves as equivocal. The unity has to do with the form, not the content. The form is one, but the moments of this form are two.
We also can easily see this with being/nothing and finite/infinite. In talking about one moment we find ourselves talking about the other. But this fluidity only works if the moments can be distinguished. Only as distinguished can they then be shown to mutually implicate.
Thus, Hegel tells us that being and nothing are both absolutely the same and absolutely different. They are the same fluidity but are only the same as fluid if they can still be viewed as absolutely distinct.
So, we do not begin with a unity and then have the understanding mistakenly analyze the unity into moments. In Being, we begin with the moments and create the unity by thinking what each moment implies with respect to its opposed determination.
The deeper question you mention needs to be properly posed. It is as follows: what justifies Hegel calling his exposition a test of sense certain cognition if he does not allow this cognition to function as it normally does by employing its full capacities? What justifies an exposition of a cognition that in your words “doesn't acknowledge all its capacity” if it can only function as does ordinary sense certain cognition if it does acknowledge all its capacities?
In short, what justifies a pinched and nonfunctional conception of sense-certain cognition? What is Hegel testing if he is not testing ordinary sense certain cognition? I take this to be an important question that can be answered.
You seem to wish to deny that this question that has been raised and continues to be raised is a question worth bothering about. In my view, your explanation for why there is no problem is unconvincing. You are not seriously engaging these scholars who have and continue to raise this question.
In particular, you have not explained what accounts for the difference you note between a fully functioning sense certain cognition and one that does not work to full capacity. Who even draws this distinction? Hegel never does.
Hegel is quite content to talk as if sense certain cognition is being refuted even though nothing about direct sense reference has changed as a result of Hegel’s supposed refutation. So, we need to explain what is really happening.
This question writ large and applied to the Phenomenology in general is the question.. What is the Phenomenology about and what is really happening over the course of the exposition? These questions remain open and are acknowledge as open by Hegel scholars.
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