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43498RE: [hegel] Para 118 PhS

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  • Alan Ponikvar
    Jan 4

      You are right. I did not respond to what you perceive as flaws in the principle.

       

      I did not because I did not think that any of this is relevant to the principle. That is why instead I decided to demonstrate how the principle works.

       

      My principle prevents me from trying to defend an absurdity as if it were not absurd. You being stubborn, do not see the absurdity of your position. There is little I can do about that.

       

      So, let me be clear.

       

      My principle gives me no warrant to dismiss an interpretation. All my principle does is alert me to interpretations that ignore the conflicts evident in text which is what I see you doing.

       

      When I pointed out these conflicts you tried various ways to evade the issue. One such error you repeat here. You say you see no evident error.

       

      But the error is evident enough. Hegel ignores the role that context plays in the use of indexicals.

       

      Why does he do this? Has Hegel made a mistake? Has he committed an obvious blunder?

       

      You just deny the evident difficulty.

       

      I see this as your fear of error.

       

      So, unless it is a sophism to question any reading that ignores difficulties made evident in the text then my principle cannot be mistaken for a sophism.

       

      Common consciousness uses indexicals all the time without being mistaken when doing so. There is no evident error.

       

      And as I and others have demonstrated, Hegel’s account of how consciousness is in error is absurd on its face.

       

      So, you wonder why must there be errors in an account of truth?

       

      The reason has to do with how Hegel understands truth. For Hegel, truth is what first appears as error.

       

      In particular, a dialectical truth first appears as a self-conflicted reason. The dialectic first has to exhibit this irrationality before the speculative alternative can recollect the irrationality as a rational because coherent absolute form.

       

      The best example of this is how the true infinite is the bad infinite differently apprehended.

       

      In the Phenomenology, truth by indirection has an account of the limitations of the reader exhibited in a self-alienated manner as the limitations of natural consciousness.

       

      Since I read the exposition as the reader coming to know himself with the first mode of natural consciousness being the most austere and incomplete mode of our self-knowing I am able to see why when we step in for consciousness we cognize not as would a common consciousness but only as a severely limited reader is able to cognize.

       

      With this, I offer an interpretation that does not ignore an obvious textual difficulty. I push through error on the way to truth.

       

      In this way, a seeming error is recollected as a moment in the development of the first truth about our knowing when self-alienated.

       

      No one has to accept my way of overcoming the evident difficulty with Hegel’s peculiar rendering of immediate cognition.

       

      But if one does not even recognize the evident difficulty or refuses to try to deal with it, then others will be likely to dismiss Hegel scholars as blind to difficulties that clearly trouble non-Hegelians.

       

      Hegel scholars tend to be dismissed in the broader philosophical community because they have done a poor job of speaking to anyone who is not of the tribe of Hegel scholars.

       

      In the eyes of these other scholars, Hegel scholars are unable or unwilling to see difficulties that everyone else has no trouble seeing.

       

      This is particular so when it comes to the difficulty of making sense of a refutation of a sense knowing that ignores context.

       

      Saying that this is Hegel’s position is no defense.

       

      • Alan

       

       

       

      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, January 4, 2019 12:04 PM
      To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hegel] Para 118 PhS

       

       

      On one hand, I pointed out flaws in the principle. I don't see that you've responded to those.

       

      On the other, you've responded on the application and results of application of the principle. The problem here is that, when you perceive a contradiction in my or anyone else's accounts here, you rarely (never?) display the same hermeneutic charity to our texts. Fear of error or fear of truth?

       

      You seem to take your principle as a warrant to dismiss any account that contradicts your own interpretation. I think it's sophistic in the application, because it's sophistic in itself.

       

      For example, you just wrote: "Out of fear of this error being the truth of the matter, you denied that Hegel was in error because if he were then the entire exposition could be called into question."

       

      This claim is false in a number of ways. I claimed that there was no evident "error" or contradiction; I also claimed that Hegel returns frequently to the error that consciousness makes in Sense Certainty, namely the seizure on a supposed self-standing immediate particular as the truth, throughout his major texts, as a common error of consciousness. All you wrote after "if" in your sentence is your supposition, in support of your principle. The "out of fear" clause is also entirely built out of your "principled" supposition that there must be an "error" in view that can't be recognized without your principle. Your principle has an addendum, namely that there must be intended "errors" in Hegel's texts.

       

      Bill

      Everything speaks in its own way. (Bloom)

       

      This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this email in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this email is strictly prohibited.


      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Alan Ponikvar' ponikvaraj@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 5:28:59 PM
      To:
      hegel@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [hegel] Para 118 PhS

       

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      My hermeneutic principle is meant to help me to avoid what I see to be a common error of interpretation which is that the reader assumes that if the text appears to be self-conflicted that is most likely because the author has errored. 

       

      And to put Hegel to use, this common assumption turns a fear of error into a fear of the truth.

       

      Let me show how this works.

       

      I noted that Hegel’s account of sense certain cognition appeared to be a comic mistaken version of common-sense certain cognition. Out of fear of this error being the truth of the matter, you denied that Hegel was in error because if he were then the entire exposition could be called into question.

       

      You were unable to see this peculiar version of sense certain cognition as Hegel’s way of challenging his reader to find the truth in this seeming error.

       

      Your principle seems to be that an author means what he says to be accessible by means of a naïve reading of the text. And if this naïve reading contradicts common-sense then the author must be confused. Hegel not being confused could not be offering what contradicts common-sense.

       

      As a result, you find yourself trying to defend the absurd position that in Hegel’s testing of sense certain cognition nothing is amiss.

       

      I prefer my principle to yours.

       

      For Hegel, truth appears by means of a cunning. This suggests that truth comes by means of indirection. The truth first appears as false before it can appear as true.

       

      For this reason, my principle is particularly helpful if one is to comprehend a speculative text. One must stick with it since a feature of speculative truth is that it contradicts our natural habits of thought such as the belief that a rational account is a self-consistent account.

       

      For Hegel, truth is self-conflicted. If one is not strong enough to abide contradiction, then one is unlikely to get Hegel.. One is more likely to give up on the text, or if one becomes a Hegelian lacking this strength one is likely to offer up a counterfeit Hegel.

       

      Last year I came across a journal article where the author argued that the reason why Hegel is so difficult to read has more to do with the reader’s presumption that truth cannot be self-conflicted. This presumption contributes to the obscurity of the text.

       

      I think this author is on to something.

       

      • Alan

       

       

      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 3:04 PM
      To:
      hegel@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hegel] Para 118 PhS

       

       

      As a heuristic this principle seems ok -- I assume this for any author of any text (though not, I think in your form: "the philosopher means what he says just as he says it"). As anything else, I think it is deeply flawed, and these flaws set limits for its heuristic use as well...

       

      On this list, in our discussions of Hegel, we don't have -- most of us -- what the philosopher says before us. We only have translations. So we have only vaguely distorted evidence of what Hegel says. That's leaving aside editing: reading a novel that was pretty poorly edited recently, I found "away awake" where the context clearly implied "awake" only.

       

      Second, even if our German were excellent, the principle seems to ignore context, and none of us has full knowledge of the meanings and connotations of specific German words in context at the time Hegel wrote. Or of Hegel's experience with those terms. Or of Hegel's particular philosophical background.

       

      From a Hegelian perspective: the principle seems to assume an identity of the text with itself. This is another level of complexity between us and what "the philosopher means."

       

      The principle would also need a proviso to the effect that the interpretation must be fully conceptual (if it is to be absolute), since any true text (statement of an account) must be conceptual (absolute). Thus the principle would only apply to fully conceptual accounts. (The accounts each shape of consciousness gives of itself, for example, are not fully conceptual.)

       

      On a more contextual level, if Hegel believed this principle in general, he wouldn't have written what he did about the Owl of Minerva. I mean this in the sense that, if every "philosophical" text arises through a complete pure intention [a This], every philosophical text is at a point (but which one) complete before it is written.

       

      Why would Hegel plan to revise his texts? You could consider every revision a different text, I suppose. A This.

       

      I think there are even more flaws with your principle.

       

      In the case of 117, your principle seems to warrant the conclusion that Hegel put in flaws on purpose ("why he does this"); which, accepted, sends the reader looking for a conspiracy, even if it's a one-man conspiracy -- a secret doctrine. But then a one-man conspiracy, uncovered, has the potential to be a two-person conspiracy. I believe you accept this conclusion ("that Hegel put in flaws on purpose," for purposes either of instruction or self-preservation). But even if this were true, the principle is unwarranted in general.

       

      Bill 

       

      Everything speaks in its own way. (Bloom)

       

      This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this email in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this email is strictly prohibited.

       


      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Alan Ponikvar' ponikvaraj@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 8:55 PM
      To:
      hegel@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [hegel] Para 118 PhS

       

      Unsubscribe

      It appears that you have subscribed to commercial messages from this sender. To stop receiving such messages from this sender, please unsubscribe

       

      I should just mention that I try to adhere to one principle when reading a philosophic text: the philosopher means what he says just as he says it. I know that this is not fashionable in our post-modern times when the text is seen as beyond the control of the author. But I find that when I read a philosopher by following this principle I am forced to take seeming points of incoherence as potentially coherent points when I put in the effort to find this coherence.

       

      So, 117 remains one of those points where Hegel does something quite strange. It is up to me to figure out why he does this.

       

      • Alan

       

      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2019 9:32 PM
      To:
      hegel@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hegel] Para 118 PhS

       

       

      If I understand correctly what you mean, let me see if I can offer a possible alternative way of looking at this.  Hosle for example (according to Zizek) was suggesting that there was more than a 3, perhaps a 4 or even a 5.  Crites argues that while the program for the work was laid out in the Introduction, as he went onward, Hegel had to deal with the difficulties of each specific detail in the sequences of patterns of consciousness.  That perhaps the Phenomenology was that which was an alternative view of the system.  So if we get down to the dimensionality of each pattern or the circle of circles, perhaps some of these are epicyclic and hypercyclic, and perhaps even 'inter-cycles'.  That is where as sense certainty closed in within itself, the perception section intersects with sense certainty, depending on the spiritual transition established at the end of sense certainty to get into perception and close the cycle as absolute.

       

      Perhaps in my ignorance, I have always been a bit wary about thinking of Hegel's system as a fully complete system.

       

      It's a bit like in the film Men in Black (I).  "You humans think size is everything.  Why should a galaxy only be huge?" or some such.

       

      Srivats

       

      On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 2:22 AM 'Alan Ponikvar' ponikvaraj@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       

      What is most peculiar about 117 is how the cycle is not self-enclosed or absolute as is typical of a dialectic but instead a cycle that kicks perceptual consciousness back to sense certain cognition.

       

      When Hegel first gives an account of the thing with properties, the cycle of determinations seems self-enclosed.. And yet, when in 117 he arrives at the single property that appears within the thing taken as passive medium, he tells us that at this point we by right have the property as isolated from the thing as the properties home.

       

      As I said, 117 has always given me trouble.

       

      The setup in 118 seems to be the sweet spot of perceptual consciousness as it does not stray from what we know from modern philosophy.

       

      • Alan

       

      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January

      (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

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