Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
Attention: Starting December 14, 2019 Yahoo Groups will no longer host user created content on its sites. New content can no longer be uploaded after October 28, 2019. Sending/Receiving email functionality is not going away, you can continue to communicate via any email client with your group members. Learn More

43238RE: [hegel] perception

Expand Messages
  • Alan Ponikvar
    Dec 9, 2018

      You begin by making an interesting claim that you then say should not be controversial as if claiming that the true metaphysics should appear to consciousness “somehow” - something Hegel neither says nor even intimates - should be beyond controversy.

       

      Clearly, this is just a rhetorical ploy on your part as if you feel the need to fortify what more you have to say against the well-earned criticism that is sure to come.

       

      One may wish to identify what you are calling the metaphysical theme of the one and the many as what the narrative in its broadest terms is about. Certainly, the epistemological theme that Hegel does address - the opposition of consciousness as a one that is also two - is a close cousin to the theme of the one and the many. But is there any advantage in switching out Hegel’s theme for this other theme? Does this switch in any way help to clarify the issue?

       

      Hegel certainly does speak of consciousness in both the first and third person. As I mentioned, this itself is worth being noted because it will soon cease. What is curious is how the “experience” of perceptual consciousness has this consciousness trapped within its own thinking about its truth standard as it is unable to offer a coherent rendering of the thing with properties.

       

      The entire exposition of this consciousness is caught in the equivocations that follow in the unsuccessful attempt to clarify its truth standard. This consciousness never gets to what most readers would recognize as the usual deceptions of perception where we mistakenly identify the object we perceive.

       

      This is a structural issue we need to see. What appears to be unique to this mode of consciousness is that it never gets to the point where any actual knowing is examined by being compared with the presumed truth standard.

       

      We are not deceived by the cube that with its properties is deemed to be sugar. We are deceived by the incoherence of the thought of a thing with properties, an incoherence evident a priori or evident even before we consider examples.

       

      Moving on, the distinction between what is in-itself and for-itself is an inner difference of anything we might think. It is not an ontological distinction. Nor does Hegel ever say or even suggest that it is. There are not two sorts of entities, those that are in themselves and those that are for themselves. In fact, the failure to attempt to separate these two moments by attributing them to two things marks the breakdown of this mode of cognition.

       

      So, what are we doing when we are reading? Well, in the spirit of Kant it can be said that we are enacting the unity of apperception. We are both conscious and self-conscious. We are to be sure observing or taking in what is being said, but we are also assessing what we are taking in. We are attempting to make sense of what we are observing.

       

      And one of the peculiarities of a speculative exposition is that this assessment cannot be made in the moment. We are not following step-wise an argument where we are only justified in moving on if we know precisely what justifies the current move.

       

      Given that Hegel’s readers are being educated to the standpoint of science by attending to a scientific account, the only way the question of what the readers know is not begged is if there is some way of reading through the exposition where their ignorance about what is happening does not prevent them from eventually coming to be educated.

       

      In the broadest terms, the way this works is that Hegel’s readers only come to know the truth of what they observe at the end by means of a recollection that recasts what these readers have observed as having been an unwitting self-involved and self-evolving reading.

       

      So, any reading that fails to recognize these features of how one is to read is in my view a misreading. And it goes a long way in explaining the multitude of unsatisfactory readings of this most difficult text.

       

      As for the reader’s intrusions, I have already explained how the reader’s intrusions can help to explain why context is ignored in sense certain claims. You have not offered a creditable rebuttal explaining how this obvious gaff on Hegel’s part can be explained in some other way.

       

      Here in perceptual consciousness there is a curious equipoise between reader and consciousness that has them meet as one - your issue of the one and many - with “experience” allowed to migrate up one level to the cognitive experience of making sense of the truth standard.

       

      In Sense-Certainty and in what is to follow in the Understanding, the truth standard talk happens without the involvement of natural consciousness. But here in perceptual consciousness the only experience attributed to consciousness occurs on this meta-level.

       

      So, no. What happens in paragraphs 117-131 is not about what you or I or anyone else would recognize as perceptual experience. As I noted, it is an a priori “experience” or a cognitive engagement with the putative truth standard prior to any engagement with objects we might perceive.

       

      The indicator that something unusual is going on is that the deceptions of perception Hegel mentions have nothing to do with what we typically mean by such deceptions. We never get to the point of being deceived by what is “out there” in the way sense certain consciousness is deceived when it attempts to pin down a ‘here’ or a ‘now’. 

       

      One of the problems of the typical dulled readings that attempt to just follow what Hegel is saying is that what is commonplace tends to be read into the exposition even though it is not there. There is not enough apperceptive cognition at work on the part of readers to save them from positing into the exposition their habitual ways of understanding what it means to sense or perceive. The ensuing muddle inhibits comprehension.

       

      One such muddle is your misidentification of the unconditioned universal - the truth of perceptual consciousness - as a truth perceptual consciousness concludes must be true. This show a profound ignorance of the structural constraints orienting the exposition. The truth of a mode of consciousness is never a truth for this mode. It is always only a truth for us.

       

      I notice that my decision to limit my comments to a few points is used against me as if I am avoiding what is at issue. Both in my post and here I have raised an issue that you should try to address: why is perceptual “experience” something that only occurs on the meta-level?

       

      So, what I skip over is something you mis-identify as “experience” without noting what is distinctive about this experience.

       

      It is this distinctive experience - an experience that everywhere else along the course of the exposition is reserved as Hegel’s discourse to the reader about the self-conflicted character of each truth standard - that needs to be explained.

       

      I will just point to where I believe an explanation lies. Here in Perception, the reader is at the second stage of the educative process that began in Sense-Certainty with readers entirely lacking in self-understanding positing this lack as their object, sense certain cognition. I discussed how this helps to explain what is happening in Sense-Certainty.

       

      In Perception, readers have the first two in one of their own cognitive journey and in this way the readers’ knowing resembles the two in one that is natural consciousness. But our two in one as an experience unique to us occurs on a meta-level. And just as sense certain cognition was distorted by the readers’ comportment, so is perceptual cognition distorted by referencing an “experience” on a level that is not properly perceptual.

       

      Clearly, my reading is controversial. It is not in any way generally accepted. I take this to be one of its strengths given how other readings are not only misreadings but lazy readings in that there is little attention to the peculiarities of the way the text is structured and then works in accord with this structure.

       

      • Alan

       

       

      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 11:51 AM
      To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hegel] perception

       

       

      Srivats, a part of the answer to your question ("why the perceptive consciousness [PC below] will make that transition") is in the project of the Phenomenology. I think that project is to prepare Hegel's readers to grasp the metaphysics of the Logic through observation of how we (humans) respond/have responded to that metaphysics as it appears to consciousness. The true metaphysics must appear to consciousness somehow; and consciousness itself must have a part in this true metaphysics (both as experiencing consciousness and as an entity in itself, as a metaphysical object). Although these kinds of claims will be strongly contested by some, in a variety of ways, there's not anything very controversial about them to me, nor, I think, to Hegel..

       

      Perception is a fascinating chapter, and I think you've emphasized a key section (117-123). (Yes, I add 117; I wonder why you excluded this section.) The narrative throughout, seen in the broadest terms, emphasizes the one and the many. There appear to be many things; yet these many also appear to be one [system], a universe, a consciousness; and each of the many ones seems to be a one itself, also composed of many -- and each of the many is also a one. (Sense Certainty began this theme, and it continues. It's a metaphysical theme.) Later in the examination, consciousness discovers that it too, when it takes itself to be the source of preception, is affected with this same problem of the one and the many.

       

      The point I want to emphasize above all is that in each of these sections Hegel depicts consciousness examining and coming to conclusions about its its experience, coming to new conjectures, observing, etc. In the narrative itself, Hegel speaks of the experience of consciousness in the third person and in the first person (both singular and plural).

      In this section especially it's essential to recognize that consciousness is actively engaged, since its motivation to resolve these issues for itself [sic] is constitutive of consciousness itself. Another major part of the answer is that consciousness is "for itself" in a robust sense and not merely in itself and for another, with an extremely thin for-itself. One of Hegel's fundamental ontological distinctions is between entities that are merely in themselves (and for another) and those that are also robustly for themselves. We, and perceptive consciousness, are the latter. (From an ontological perspective it is important that all things have the for-itself moment; this could also be a part of the answer to your question; at the minimal extreme an object has the for-itself implicit in its concept implicitly in itself; it's different for itself.)

       

      In di Giovanni's Introduction to the Logic, he notes the significance of being for itself: "The turn consists in the fact that, from now on, the conceptual stress is no longer on “what” a being happens to be but on its retaining unity (in its abiding with itself ) regardless of what it might otherwise be as a “what.”" Being for itself, abiding with oneself, "retaining" unity. The difficulty consciousness experiences when it turns to its own experience -- the divisions and false consciousness it finds there -- drive it to seek to re-establish the immediate unity it has experienced in itself.

       

      If we keep our attention focused on what happens in the exposition of each mode, several things are clear. Plus, we'd actually be reading Hegel. (It's hard for me to grasp what Alan thinks his reader is doing here, if it's not reading. I'm familiar with reading. What are the reader's "intrusions" here? (He's also given me credit for something I don't recognize in this context.)

       

      For one thing, from 117-131, Hegel is giving us "what consciousness experiences in its actual perceiving" (117). If we can follow this, we can recognize the experience of perceptual consciousness. It's remarkable that Hegel here uses 3rd person singular ("it has experienced in perception" 118), 1st person singular("I also perceive in it a property" 117), and even 1st person plural ("We are thus the universal medium" 119) to narrate this experience.

       

      The commentators I've looked at gloss over this point. Like Alan here, they often frame Hegel's narration of PC examining its experience as "Hegel says," with a summary of a point about the nature of perceptual consciousness. (The other side of this is a comment such as, Hegel is hard to follow here. This suggests they haven't considered the possibility.)

       

      Alan skips over most of the section because he can't acknowledge that Hegel shows PC examining its experience. He skips directly to the "unconditioned universal," and emphasizes that this is the truth of PC. It may be, but the unconditioned universal, introduced in the transition to Understanding is PC's conclusion of what must be true, where unity must reside -- in a realm of pure laws, etc., a unified unchanging beyond. more importantly, Hegel shows us in Perception, how PC comes to this point.

       

      Bill 

       

      Everything speaks in its own way. (Bloom)

       

      This email may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this email in error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this email is strictly prohibited.


      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of R Srivatsan r.srivats@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, December 3, 2018 7:47:34 AM
      To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hegel] perception

       

      Unsubscribe

      It appears that you have subscribed to commercial messages from this sender. To stop receiving such messages from this sender, please unsubscribe

       

      More generally on perception. Between 118 and 123, there is a process by which the perceptive consciousness moves from attributing the unity in the object and the diversity in the perceiving subject, to the diversity in the object (and unity in the perceiving subject). It is possible for us as readers if Hegel to see this movement, but it is unclear why the perceptive consciousness will make that transition. Is this simple oscillation or is it a logical deduction? If the latter, what's the logic that puts the diversity in the object?

       

      Thanks

      Srivats

       

      On Wed, Nov 28, 2018, 2:30 AM jgbardis@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com wrote:

       

      Hello Will,

       

      I do appreciate your politeness here. I've noticed over the years this tendency of yours, which I appreciate, to be quite rude--but then to back off and be more polite when confronted.

       

      Certainly we have to be careful about what you call "false theological models". But we shouldn't let this concern distract us from true philosophy.

       

      John

       

       

    • Show all 165 messages in this topic