- Nov 15, 2018
Since you do not make arguments but just state opinions, your posts cannot be of any philosophic benefit to others on this site.
- Alan
From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 2:30 PM
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's DashVery well. You can assume that when I respond to something in your posts it is for the benefit of those interested, if any, and not yourself, even if I should happen to use the pronoun "you" or similar.
Stephen Theron.
From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Alan Ponikvar' ponikvaraj@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 15 November 2018 18:24
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [hegel] Hegel's DashI taught for over a decade students who arrived at my college having been in the bottom half of their high school class.
When I asked a student “what is your argument” I never got in return a puzzled look. I got an argument.
When I ask you “what is your argument” I get no argument.
After all these years I have concluded that you do not know what it means to make an argument.
I have no interest in opinions offered without argument because philosophy as a practice is not about accepting or rejecting opinions; it is about assessing arguments.
And since you offer nothing that can be assessed, you are not engaged in philosophic practice.
And since you are not engaged in philosophic practice I am uninterested in wasting my time with your posts.
- Alan
From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 6:39 AM
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's DashIt is not so roundabout and without interest for an intelligent and/or informed person. I write this more for the others here as I know, within limits, where your will is set (to have me out of the way), regrettably, I cannot help thinking. So:
Every argument's acceptability depends upon some intelligence ("finite" or infinite), being able to "follow" it.
Every argument form's acceptability also depends precisely upon this.
Therefore every argument form is an argument.
I deliberately put this in the "invalid" form of undistributed middle, since I am sceptical, to say the least, concerning distribution as a general principle. So I leave it to you to construct the "valid" argument intended. I am sure you can do it.
But in case you can't we can start (and it is only a beginning) by employing Hegel's own account of Syllogism or argument generally, where proof and what is to be proved show themselves to be reversible. Thus:
Every argument form is an argument.
Every argument's acceptability depends upon some intelligence being able to follow it.
Therefore every argument form's acceptability depends upon some intelligence being able to "follow" it.
It is interesting, maybe, maybe not, that the term "form" intrudes into the conclusion by this reversal, just the term we want.
Implied in this conclusion is that "the notion of Form you and many logicians or meta-logicians are working with is ultimately Kantian and abstract".
You, or anyone, can read the rest of my previous communication as it stands.. To suit your Understanding, really pedantry, or special pleading rather (since you know better), in patent discord with the extremely esoteric misrepresentation of Hegel's thought you regularly entrust to us all here, in assertive rather than argumentative mode, I have put my contention in precisely the syllogistic form (I could have used modus ponens or its variants) that Hegel's Science of Logic cancels as passing beyond..
Stephen Theron.
From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Alan Ponikvar' ponikvaraj@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 14 November 2018 18:19
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [hegel] Hegel's DashI guess that this is your roundabout way of saying that you will “propose”, “maintain”, and “suggest”, but what you will not do is provide arguments for anything you propose, maintain or suggest.
- Alan
From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2018 6:23 AM
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [hegel] Hegel's DashThat is, you were not able to follow the argument.
I begin by proposing the concept of an argument form. I point out that this is no different in its eventual identity, according to Hegel's premises, with either a concept, a proposition or an argument ("syllogism") indifferently.
The reason I give is that just as the acceptability of an argument, inclusive of an acceptability of its validity, depends upon someone or ones "following" it, as you say, so the situation of an "argument form" is no different and cannot be shown to be different. They are, accordignly, simply very general arguments. This is the point made by the Victorian logician Lewis Caroll Dodgson, just incidentally.
I maintain further, in view of Hegel's Aufhebung of matter and form in one, that the notion of Form you and many logicians or meta-logicians are working with is ultimately Kantian and abstract.
What I have suggested in previous (pre-Hegelian) work, following on a suggestion of Peter Geach, the well-known logician, is that arguments are adjudged by how they go on all fours, as he puts it, with arguments already accepted, qand a fortiori simply (and nothing more) with so-called argument forms, e.g. modus ponens or the 19 or so rules or laws (De Morgan's I think they are called) you will find listed in Copi's Introduction to Logic or his other book, just for example of the general thoughtlessness involved. This is also how the Venn diagrams work. You are supposed to just see that the argument the "form" of which you have just generalised "fits" with something yet more general you simply and immediately see, i.e. it is put beyond the reach of argument, or so it looks. In reality it is just a retreat back into abstract or schematised mathematics, geometry even.
This has nothing to do with the Concept or with any concept, however. It is an invitation to forget about logic and its problems which, as Hegel shows, bears as nothing else does upon the nature of reality, upon being, finally identified by Hegel with what he calls the Idea or, with a touch of representation, God.
This idea of Geach's I myself related to the notion of arguing from analogy (see my shortish paper "Argument Forms and Argument from Analogy", Acta Philosophica, Rome, no further details to hand just now and here: it also appears as a chapter in my Hegel's Apotheosis of Logic). It corresponds also to Dodgson's "You might as well say", though he himself reduced this to deliberate and comic absurdity.
To follow this further, and perhaps correct it, one could not do better than read Hegel on Concept, Judgment and Syllogism, those sections, of either EL or GL.
In conclusion, Hegel says somewhere, or implies, in harmony with Aquinas, that God is "pure form". What does he mean by that? Not, for sure, simply, that God lacks matter or anything else. It is, anyhow, the Idea as final conclusion of "The Science of Logic". This both is and is not an argument, if we recall Hegel's claim that the entire syllogism is its conclusion (called Schluss in either case in Hegel's language, if I am not wrong).
From: hegel@yahoogroups.com <hegel@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of 'Alan Ponikvar' ponikvaraj@... [hegel] <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 13 November 2018 17:55
To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [hegel] Hegel's DashThere is no argument when there is no argument.
When there is an argument then one either is able to follow the argument or not.
You offer nothing to follow.
A philosophy may begin with an insight – even the insight that god is truth – but this can only be the beginning.
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