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23158RE: [hegel] Elevation

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  • Alan Ponikvar
    Sep 18, 2014

      There is no shame in not being able to think speculatively or think inconsistent thoughts as rational.

       

      To be reminded that one might not be yet ready to think such thoughts was Hegel’s own view.

       

      It is one reason why he wrote the Phenomenology.

       

      -          Alan

       

      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hegel@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 10:48 AM
      To: hegel hegel
      Subject: RE: [hegel] Elevation

       

       

      Well it seems everyone here except John is now accusing everyone else as "unable to think" what he (not she really at present) is thinking. This suggests that such an inability invalidates the invalidator, is indeed a superiority over these various cranks. For myself, I don't think at this time that I have as yet ever suggested to any colleague here that hje is unable to think whatever I was outlining, suggesting etc. Was I unable to think such a thing? True, someone modifies it by "at present", but it is a strange locution indeed.
       
      Stephen.
       


      To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2014 15:06:06 -0400
      Subject: RE: [hegel] Elevation

       

      I guess better late than never.

       

      The persistent non-being of the finite is the vanishing of finite being.

       

      Again, this is what you are unable to think.

       

      You were the one who claimed that the vanishing of the finite was a first negation, not me.

       

      As I have mentioned often enough one has to cash out metaphors. Sublation is a metaphor. So is “withdraws”.

       

      This is simply another indication that you do not know what is required of an account of Hegel’s logical exposition.

       

      You continue to accept what needs to be explain. You continue to offer riddles believing that they are plain speech.

       

      You are lost in the way most people are lost when they first come to these texts. You have no clue as to what the issues are.

       

      You seem to think we have thoughts that magically move of their own accord. You see Hegel’s talk about movement but simply accept it as if no explanation is needed.

       

      The “withdrawal” of being into ground means the same as saying that non-being is ground. The withdrawal comes about by means of a shift from viewing in the first case the flux of the differences and in the second the identity that is the form of this flux.

       

      But then you know this don’t you?

       

       

       

      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hegel@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 2:52 PM
      To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [hegel] Elevation

       

       

      Alan continues to blunder his way through Hegel's conceptions yet again (as well as my interpretations).

       

      Alan writes:

      >You missed the past month discussion where Will was trying to defend the view that the >vanishing of finite being was a mere matter of finite being not being.

       

      >I pointed out that the non-being of the finite actually persists and as Hegel tells us is the being >of the absolute.

       

      I have repeatedly stated and shown that the "vanishing of finite being" was NOT a "mere matter of finite being not being." The being of the finite AND its vanishing are BOTH nullified in the non-being of the finite. This is an absolute negation, not a first negation.

       

      Alan seems to be incapable of grasping, what to speak of remembering, what others have to say. It is not only what one understands that matters. Just read what has already been posted. It is not a matter of argument. 

       

      At least it seems the argument about the "persistent vanishing" has been discarded. Now its the persistent non-being of the finite as the being of the Absolute that is emphasized. But what Hegel means by the non-being of the finite is the being of the Absolute, has already been discussed and clarified.

       

      Again, let's look at what Hegel writes:

       

      ". . . contingent [finte] Being in its own self withdraws into its Ground [Absolute], in which it is sublated — and, further, that by this withdrawal it posits Ground in such a manner only that it makes itself into the posited element." SL 963. [Emphasis mine]

       

      Here Hegel, refers to this non-being of the finite as sublated in the Absolute, and not only that, but posited by the Absolute. Then where is this persistence of the non-being of the finite, once we understand that non-being means sublation in the Absolute that also posits it as an ideal determination (not moment) of itself. This makes Absolute Being quite different from the mere persistence of the non-being of the finite. 

       

      Alan:

       

      > This is something apparently you just are unable to think.

       

      Hmm. Perhaps that sums up the problem.

       

      Next, unable to defend his position, Alan tries to switch arguments and venture to bring in the relation of Essence to Shine. 

       

      First we have to keep clear what the non-being of the finite means in the first case, as the negation of the negation of finite being and its vanishing. Then its significance as sublated in the Absolute as an ideal determinateness of the Absolute.

       

      In SL § 827 Hegel writes:

       

      "It is the immediacy of non-being that constitutes illusory being; but this non-being is nothing else but the negativity of essence present within it. In essence, being is non-being. Its intrinsic nothingness is the negative nature of essence itself. But the immediacy or indifference which this non-being contains is essence's own absolute being-in-itself. . . but the immediacy is not simply affirmative [seiend], but is the purely mediated or reflected immediacy that is illusory being-being, not as being, but only as the determinateness of being as opposed to mediation; being as a moment."

       

      So, here "non-being constitutes illusory being," which is the "negativity of essence," whose very "being is non-being," whose "nothingness is the negative nature of essence itself," and thus the "absolute being-in -itself" of essence. So what does this tell us about what non-being refers to in this instance? It is telling us that "illusory being, not as being, but only as the determinateness of being" is implied here, not "being as a moment" of essence.

       

      Thus non-being (that constitutes illusory being) is a determinateness of of "essence's own absolute being in itself." Non-being is a determinateness, not a moment of essence. Thus it turns out to have the same nature as non-being in SL § 963, as an ideal determinateness of Absolute being.

       

      Nothing new here.

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       


      From: "'Alan Ponikvar' ponikvaraj@... [hegel]" <hegel@yahoogroups.com>
      To: hegel@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 10:37 AM
      Subject: RE: [hegel] Elevation

       

       

      You ask:

       

      Q: But what is "the split" that you mention above in Perception an example of?  

       

      Answer: Well, it's an example of 'the being of the object' proving itself to be 'something that is not'.

       

      You missed the past month discussion where Will was trying to defend the view that the vanishing of finite being was a mere matter of finite being not being.

       

      I pointed out that the non-being of the finite actually persists and as Hegel tells us is the being of the absolute.

       

      This is something apparently you just are unable to think.

       

      For you, the exposition of perception is nothing more than a skeptical refutation. As I have said countless times, skepticism is a position oriented by the opposition of consciousness. It is a position that as you have shown misreads the truth of consciousness to be nothing more than this refutation.

       

      You quote my post but ignore the substance of what Hegel says and what I note about the truth of perception.

       

      The thing of perception is conceived simultaneously in two mutually exclusive ways, as a medium and as an exclusive one. This dialectic culminates in the ideal moments that are being-for-self and being-for-another. The truth of this dialectic is what Hegel calls the unconditioned universal. This is the truth that as absolute persists. It is the logic of the thing of perception, something common reason cannot provide but speculative reason can.

       

      Why do you ignore this? Because you are trapped within your skeptical mindset and are unable to think speculatively.

       

      You have to understand that in my opinion you remain hopelessly lost and have yet to gain even a toehold in your attempt to comprehend Hegel’s speculative logic.

       

      In sense-certainty we do not have a proper test of this consciousness until the third test because in the first two tests we, acting on behalf of this consciousness, apply one of our bright ideas: that there is a distinction between what is and is not essential in knowing what is immediate. Only with the third test do we take up this consciousness without imposing this distinction.

       

       

      Below I quote from a post that was a response to something Will wrote in his attempt to defend a position very much like the one you attempt to defend today. Since you refuse to recognize anything not written directly to you and will not show the common courtesy to get up to speed about what has been happening on this site recently I offer this before you offer what I suspect will be a wayward reading of Essence.

       

      ---

       

      Essence begins with much talk about shine – a being that on longer has a being. A being characterized as “the pure moment of non-existence” or “the immediacy of non-existence”.

       

      But Hegel then goes on to say:

       

      “What constitutes the shine is the immediacy of non-being; this non-being, however, is nothing else than the negativity of essence within essence itself. In essence, being is non-being. Its inherent nothingness is the negative nature of essence itself. But the immediacy or indifference which this non-being contains is essence’s own absolute in-itself.”

       

      Are we paying attention?

       

      “The immediacy or indifference which this non-being contains is essence’s own absolute in-itself.”

       

      Hegel goes on to say:

       

      “Shine is essence itself in the determinateness of being. Essence has a shine because it is determined within itself and is therefore distinguished from its absolute unity.”

       

      So this non-being just will not go away.

       

      “Shine is the negative which has a being, but in another, in its negation; it is a non-self-subsisting-being which is sublated within and null. And so it is the negative which returns into itself, the non-subsistent as such, internally non-subsistent. This reference of the negative or the non-subsistence to itself  is the immediacy  of this non-subsistent…”

       

      So, what lacks being is characterized as what returns into itself. This is precisely the point I have been making. The non-being of the finite is a way of being. It is the vanishing that persists as the negative which returns into itself. 

       

      Finally,

       

      The determinateness that shine is in essence is, therefore, infinite determinateness; it is only the negative which coincides with itself and hence a determinateness that, as determinateness, is self-subsistence and not determined. Contrariwise, the self-subsistence, as self-referring immediacy, equally is just determinateness and moment, negativity solely referring to itself. This negativity which is identical with immediacy, and thus the  immediacy which is identical with negativity, is essence. “

       

      Here we have Hegelian noise at its finest. Shine as negativity – the vanishing that persists – is essence. Or the non-being of the finite is the being of the absolute.

       

      -          Alan

       

       

      From: hegel@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hegel@yahoogroups.com]
      Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 8:23 AM
      To: Beat Grueter
      Subject: RE: [hegel] Elevation

       

       

      [Randall]

       

      > This means we can initially think of the term "consciousness" as bound

      > up with a forgetting of "the self" (or we can at least think in terms of the

      > self as being "unconscious" in consciousness).

       

      > Now, if we start from the "immersion" in the given object of consciousness

      > (where, as I mentioned before, a "a wall is just a wall", and not "my seeing

      > the wall"), we can then ask, what prompts the "recollection"? 

       

      [Alan] 

       

      > A tree is also just a tree, a house, just a house. Or so it would seem. 

       

      > What prompts the speculative recollection when we are dealing with

      > a thing with properties is the split between the two ways of conceiving

      > the thing as demonstrated in the chapter on perception in the 

      > Phenomenology. 

       

      > The dialectic that has being-for-self and being-for-another as ideal

      > moments is recollected as the unconditioned universal, the truth of 

      > perceptual consciousness. 

       

      Yes, this is one example of where there is a "reflection" from the object into the "self", or where "the self" is recollected in a sequence where there is a move from 'the being of the object of consciousness' into 'the self of consciousness'. 

       

      Q: But what is "the split" that you mention above in Perception an example of?  

       

      Answer: Well, it's an example of 'the being of the object' proving itself to be 'something that is not'.

       

      We see this happen in the PhG as early as the first test of sense-certainty (see para 96).  The 'this' vanishes into 'not this', or 'this tree' vanishes into 'this house'.  But, then, what's the very next test?  Well, the second test attempts to hold on to 'the being of the object' by investing its truth in 'the object as my object' (see para. 100).

       

      So, the emergence of "the self" of consciousness is first mediated through 'the being of the object that proves itself to be something that it's not.'  Or, we are first aware of the "self" as reflected.

       

      What I will try to point out in the up-coming weeks is that this is very much like the transition to the Essence section which involves being "sublating itself", and revealing itself as in and for itself a nullity that withdraws into essence. 

       

       

       

      R

       

       

       

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