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Harry/Voldemort fusion theory (long)

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  • mclellyn
    The cruz of this theory is that symbolically Harry is consciousness and Voldemort is unconsciousness. Now for how I got there. Carl Gustav Jung coined the
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 22, 2004
      The cruz of this theory is that symbolically Harry is consciousness
      and Voldemort is unconsciousness. Now for how I got there.

      Carl Gustav Jung coined the word synchronicity which loosely means
      meaningful coincidences. While on vacation, I walked into a used
      book store. I have had many dreams about bears and wanted an out-of-
      print book by Joseph Campbell about animal mythology to understand
      the symbolism of bears. The store had no books by Campbell, but the
      spine of a book called MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS edited by Carl Gustav Jung
      jumped out at me. I knew Campbell and Jung were friends from the
      POWER OF THE MYTH series. I bought it thinking it would be
      interesting to understand the symbolism in art. After I came home,
      little did I know synchronicity would hit me between the eyes (I'm
      surprised I don't have a scar there).

      I was reading a chapter on shadows. Then realized how many times the
      word shadow showed up in Harry Potter. "Riddle, quiet as a shadow,
      edged through the door and followed...." (COS p 246). Again, "He
      could hear echoing footsteps and then a dark shadow moved in front of
      him." (COS p321). In GOBLET OF FIRE, after Harry dreams of
      Voldemort he awakens in Trelawny's class, "He couldn't stop himself
      from looking around, into the shadows behind him; Voldemort's voice
      had sounded so close...." (GOF, p577). Then in SORCERER'S
      STONE, "See what I've become? the face said, "Mere shadow and
      vapor." (p293) (All page numbers will be from the US paperbacks
      except Order of the Phoenix and Man and His Symbols)

      MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS, to my amazement, was about dreams (why I was
      motivated to buy a book in the first place) and how dreams
      educate our conscious about the shadows in our unconscious. I
      realize I am not the first to notice that Harry and Voldemort are
      shadows of each other, but this book gave me a new education on
      shadows. It also was hitting me between the eyes that Harry's
      dreams are very significant. MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS was linking dreams
      and shadows and consciousness and unconsciousness together:

      "Through dreams one becomes acquainted with aspects of one's own
      personality that for various reasons one has preferred not to look at
      too closely. This is what Jung called "the realization of the
      shadow". p168

      "In dreams and myths, therefore, the shadow appears as a person of
      the same sex as that of the dreamer." p169 .

      Reading the next few quotes from MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS, I was starting
      to get the idea that symbolically Harry is consciousness and
      Voldemort is unconsciousness. This would tie many things together
      from the Harry Potter books.

      Speaking of the conscious and unconscious "...implies the existence
      of two "subjects", or ...two personalities within the same
      individual......And it is the curse of modern man that many people
      suffer from this divided personality." p23 . Hmmm curse scar?

      "Dr. Jung has pointed out that the shadow cast by the conscious mind
      of the individual contains the hidden, repressed, and unfavorable (or
      nefarious) aspects of the personality. .......Ego and shadow,
      although separate, are inextricably linked together in much the same
      way that thought and feeling are related to each other." p118.

      "...perhaps the essence of Jung's philosophy in life: Man becomes
      whole, integrated, calm, fertile, and happy .....when the conscious
      and unconscious have learned to live at peace and to complement one
      another." p14 Introduction.

      THE PROPHECY: MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS explains why neither is truly
      alive while the other survives. Neither is whole as long as they are
      divided and not assimilating the important qualities/powers of the
      other. Therefore, they have to merge -- "live at peace and to
      complement one another." p14 Introduction. Wholeness, according to
      MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS, is related to the philosopher's stone. It is
      interesting that Dumbledore is famous for is work in alchemy (SS
      p103) as Jung studied and wrote extensively on alchemy too. Alchemy
      has to do with humans going through trials (by fire?) to become
      whole. "An old Arabian alchemist, Morienus, said: "....The
      philosophers stone is extracted from you; you are the mineral, and
      one can find it in you; ....If you recognize this, the love and
      approbation of the stone will grow within you." p210 MAN AND HIS
      SYMBOLS. Another quote, "In medieval symbolism, the "philosopher's
      stone" ( a pre-eminent symbol of man's wholeness) is presented as a
      pair of lions or as a human couple riding on lions" p 205-6. Hmmm,
      interesting that Gryffindor's mascot is a lion. Is the Half Blood
      Prince the other lion? Is Harry?

      WHY VOLDEMORT DIDN'T DIE: If Voldemort is the unconscious self it
      would explain why he knows about everyone's hidden thoughts, can
      smell lies, fear, and why he isn't quite mortal -- hence why he can't
      die. Voldemort is part of the "collective unconscious" in Jungian
      terms that is why "He always knows".

      WHY DUMBLEDORE DIDN'T KILL VOLDEMORT: Because "Ego and shadow,
      although separate, are inextricably linked together" p116. Hence he
      would kill Harry? I think too that Dumbledore wants to give Harry
      the opportunity to become whole with his shadow unconscious --
      Voldemort. I believe that Dumbledore may have gone through the
      uniting of the unconscious shadow with his ego consciousness when he
      defeated the dark wizard Grindelwald, and that may be why Dumbledore
      also has a curse scar (SS/PS p15). Dumbledore tells Voldemort in
      Phoenix p 814 that "We both know there are other ways of destroying a
      man, Tom." Maybe you can destroy them by fusing with them --
      assimilating their powers. MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS states it this
      way: "Above all, (Paul Klee, artist) had realized the necessity of
      not denying evil. "Even evil must not be a triumphant or degrading
      enemy, but a power collaborating in the whole." p270 . I believe we
      see this evil being a collaborating power in Dumbledore. He has a
      frightening and powerful rage that we see in PHOENIX, "An awful voice
      filled the kitchen, echoing in the confined space, issuing from the
      burning letter on the table. "REMEMBER MY LAST, PETUNIA." (p 40).
      Later in the book, "He was so angry," Hermione in an almost
      awestruck voice. "Dumbledore. We saw him. When he found out
      Mundungus had left before his shift had ended. He was scary." (p
      64). I believe these awful and scary parts of Dumbledore are the
      Grindelwald within - so to speak.

      In MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS talks about different types of hero journeys
      in mythology. One is the Twin archetype which seems to correspond
      with the conscious and unconscious uniting journey. "Though the
      Twins are said to be the sons of the Sun, they are essentially human
      and together constitute a single person. Originally united in the
      mother's womb, they were forced apart at birth. Yet they belong
      together, and it is necessary - though exceedingly difficult to
      reunite them." p113 MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS. Hmmmm, reminds me of what
      JKR says in interviews on how she knows what is coming for Harry.

      Reuniting is difficult because we have to accept that we have a
      different side to our nature. Joseph Campbell described it in POWER
      OF THE MYTH (page #'s from paperback), "Heaven and hell are within
      us, and all the gods are within us. ....They are magnified dreams,
      and dreams are manifestations in image form of the energies of the
      body in conflict with each other. That is what myth is. Myth is a
      manifestation in symbolic images, in metaphorical images, of the
      energies of the organs of the body in conflict with each
      other......The brain is one of the organs." p46. Hence the
      placement of Harry's scar? Hence why it hurts so much when he is
      aware of Voldemort? MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS puts it this way, "Yet in
      order to sustain his creed, contemporary man pays the price in a
      remarkable lack of introspection. He is blind to the fact that with
      all his rationality and efficiency, he is possessed by "powers" that
      are beyond his control. " p83

      According to MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS, some things that need to happen to
      Harry in the process of merging:

      "It would be relatively easy if one could integrate the shadow into
      the conscious personality just by attempting to be honest and to use
      one's insight. But, unfortunately, such an attempt does not always
      work. There is such a passionate drive within the shadowy part of
      oneself that reason may not prevail against it. A bitter experience
      coming from the outside may occasionally help; a brick, so to speak,
      has to drop on one's head to put a stop to shadow drives and
      impulses. At times a heroic decision may serve to halt them, but
      such a superhuman effort is usually possible only if the Great Man
      within ( the Self) helps the individual to carry it through." p173.

      "Only if I remain an ordinary human being, conscious of my
      incompleteness, can I become receptive to the significant content and
      processes of the unconscious." p217.

      Could Harry's passionate drive be he'll never go over to the dark
      side? Then there are the bitter experiences. In THE ALCHEMISTS TALE
      by John Granger, he explains in alchemy that there is a black, white,
      and red phase to alchemy. Black has died. Albus is white in Latin,
      and Rubeus is red in Latin. Two more deaths? Two more bitter
      experiences before Harry is conscious of his incompleteness and
      becomes receptive to the processes of the unconscious? Will the
      alchemy of Sirius, Dumbledore, and Hagrid form the Great Man within
      to help Harry "carry it through".

      Four interesting quotes from MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS about the forces of
      opposites:

      "(Greek thinkers) postulated the existence of a sort of life-
      giving "tension" (tonos), which supports and moves all things."
      p306 .

      "for Jung saw that the relationship between the conscious and
      unconscious mind also forms a complementary pair of opposites." pg 308

      "This is that every personification of the unconscious--the
      shadow......, and the Self -- has both a light and a dark aspect. We
      saw before that the shadow may be base or evil, an instinctive drive
      that one ought to overcome. It may, however, be an impulse toward
      growth that one should cultivate and follow. In the same way the
      anima and animus have dual aspects: they can bring life-giving
      development and creativeness to the personality, or they can cause
      petrification and physical death." page 216.

      "We can also see that the arrangement of archetypal symbols follows a
      pattern of wholeness in the individual, and that an appropriate
      understanding of the symbols can have a healing effect. And we can
      see that the archetypes can act as creative or destructive forces in
      our mind; creative when they inspire new ideas, destructive when
      these same ideas stiffen into conscious prejudices that inhibit
      further discoveries." pg 304.

      I believe both Dumbledore and the Weasley twins exhibit the
      creativeness in the last two quotes, and I believe that is the
      journey Harry is heading for. In the Weasley twins, the pair of
      opposites leading to creativity is shown in GOBLET OF FIRE p566 when
      they are arguing about blackmailing Ludo Bagman for not paying them
      in real gold. This is ....when the conscious and unconscious have
      learned to live at peace and to complement one another." p14
      Introduction MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS. The twins are mischievous like
      their hero Dumbledore, but they know where that line is. Their joke
      shop creativity is also an example of when the dual aspects of the
      personality that brings "life-giving development and creativeness to
      the personality". p216 The Weasley twins consciousness and
      unconsciouness are in balance and it has brought them success.

      I believe this is Harry/Voldemort's final journey: "In the case of
      an adult, a sense of completeness is achieved through a union of the
      consciousness with the unconscious contents of the mind. Out of this
      union arises what Jung called "the transcendent function of the
      psyche," by which a man can achieve his highest goal: the full
      realization of the potential of his individual self." p149 MAN AND
      HIS SYMBOLS. Hmmm, so Harry can grow old, have twelve children, and
      become the Minister of Magic?

      Of course I have given you the dry research version of what might
      happen. Even if I'm right, it will still be interesting to see how
      JKR's imagination will accomplish this merger. Hans, I guess you can
      say this is my version of your unifying theory!

      Ok, let the swatting of the gadfly begin.

      Gadfly McLellyn
    • MariannaDolan
      Excellent comments! ... stone ( a pre-eminent symbol of man s wholeness) is presented as a pair of lions or as a human couple riding on lions p 205-6.
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 22, 2004
        Excellent comments!

        Quoting mclellyn:
        >Another quote, "In medieval symbolism, the "philosopher's
        stone" ( a pre-eminent symbol of man's wholeness) is presented as a
        pair of lions or as a human couple riding on lions" p 205-6. Hmmm,
        interesting that Gryffindor's mascot is a lion. Is the Half Blood
        Prince the other lion? Is Harry?<

        If you remember, Bulgaria's team at the world cup- Krum's team, had a lion
        on their robes as well. A curious observation I've recently noticed... In
        conjunction with the whole Venus initiation thing well-thought-out and
        anticipated for book 5, I wonder if that might be another Half-Blood Prince
        possibility, also having specific significance in regards to Hermione.

        >Reuniting is difficult because we have to accept that we have a
        different side to our nature. Joseph Campbell described it in POWER
        OF THE MYTH (page #'s from paperback), "Heaven and hell are within
        us, and all the gods are within us. ....They are magnified dreams,
        and dreams are manifestations in image form of the energies of the
        body in conflict with each other. That is what myth is. Myth is a
        manifestation in symbolic images, in metaphorical images, of the
        energies of the organs of the body in conflict with each
        other......The brain is one of the organs." p46. Hence the
        placement of Harry's scar? Hence why it hurts so much when he is
        aware of Voldemort? MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS puts it this way, "Yet in
        order to sustain his creed, contemporary man pays the price in a
        remarkable lack of introspection. He is blind to the fact that with
        all his rationality and efficiency, he is possessed by "powers" that
        are beyond his control. " p83 <

        This and the further comments you made concerning opposition have strong
        parallels to some observations I wrote up just yesterday (for a different
        forum) about what it means to be 'on the side of Truth'. Since they fit
        right in, I'll post them right here:

        ***To get started, this is what I find to be evident, concerning truth:

        To love truth is to love God, because God is Truth.

        To love truth is to be/become free, because the truth shall make us free.
        To see it another way: to love truth is to love freedom, and to 'be not
        afraid' of it.

        By its very nature, to know the value of freedom is to wish it for (and
        grant it to) another; it is the granting of freedom that makes love
        unconditional. (And it is this unconditional quality that, in my
        experience, is _the single most endearing_ quality of all)

        Honesty is the _love of truth_ in action, and is therefore the way to
        freedom. (This is, to me, a deeply motivating thought)

        Truth is the ultimate gem of universal understanding that is subsequently
        viewed from so many different directions that it is expressed in forms and
        issues unrecognizable and contrary to each other. The only way to find it,
        in the midst of such divided opposition, is to release interest in the
        specific form/issue one identifies with in favor of looking beyond/above it
        for complete understanding of all sides. In any issue, every side will be
        _best_ served by coming closer to this unified point. (Coming closer to
        this unified point of truth is also known as coming closer to God. Any
        _side_ of an issue, by its nature of being a _side_, cannot accurately claim
        absolute truth- absolute truth has no opposition except opposition itself.
        Therefore, promoting any specific position, though with good intent as any
        do, will not solve the problem but make it [the opposition] worse.)

        Willingness to let go of one's own personal interest in favor of the greater
        (unified point of) truth remains the most difficult, even if most eventually
        rewarding, attitude of all. Great honesty is therefore marked by great
        courage, as well as great love, truth, and freedom. Ultimately, it is
        marked by the power of God.

        Truth's greatest challenge is to effectively communicate itself with all
        that know only opposition.

        One cannot give what (understanding of truth) they don't have. Therefore
        'Why' is perhaps the most valuable question of all, since in seeking to
        truly answer it for oneself, one becomes aware of what they personally don't
        understand and develops what wisdom they have.
        ***

        I find lots of parallels with this and Harry's ultimate purpose and
        passion/motivation (I identify with it). Harry is greatly honest with
        himself (it takes that to recognize and act upon the deep love within that
        he expresses); Voldemort can easily represent 'all that knows only
        opposition'.

        What do you think? :)

        Have a nice day!
        Marianna
      • mclellyn
        Thanks to Hans for your email and thanks to Marianna for your encouraging words. Before I answer Marianna s post, I want to address something Hans emailed me.
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 23, 2004
          Thanks to Hans for your email and thanks to Marianna for your
          encouraging words. Before I answer Marianna's post, I want to
          address something Hans emailed me. I really don't feel Jung is pure
          psychology. He studied Alchemy and mythology (which includes
          religious stories). In reading this book, I felt it was much more
          spiritual than psychological. Also, I feel that somehow the
          unconscious is where our spiritual connections are. I admit I can't
          prove this, but understand when I talk about the unconscious that I
          mean a place where we have our spiritual connection.

          Now on to Marianna......

          marianna wrote:

          Tons of snipping

          > Truth is the ultimate gem of universal understanding that is
          subsequently viewed from so many different directions that it is
          expressed in forms and issues unrecognizable and contrary to each
          other. The only way to find it,in the midst of such divided
          opposition, is to release interest in the specific form/issue one
          identifies with in favor of looking beyond/above it for complete
          understanding of all sides. In any issue, every side will be _best_
          served by coming closer to this unified point. (Coming closer to
          this unified point of truth is also known as coming closer to God.
          Any _side_ of an issue, by its nature of being a _side_, cannot
          accurately claim absolute truth- absolute truth has no opposition
          except opposition itself. Therefore, promoting any specific position,
          though with good intent as any do, will not solve the problem but
          make it [the opposition] worse.)
          >
          > Willingness to let go of one's own personal interest in favor of
          the greater (unified point of) truth remains the most difficult, even
          if most eventually rewarding, attitude of all. Great honesty is
          therefore marked by great courage, as well as great love, truth, and
          freedom. Ultimately, it is marked by the power of God.
          >
          More snipping.

          This is the section of your post that really spoke to me. It reminds
          me of a quote in POWER OF THE MYTH, "(Joseph Campbell) liked the
          insight of the Hindu scripture: "Truth is one; the sages call it by
          many names"." pxviii introduction

          Gadfly McLellyn
        • Hans Rieuwers
          ... The crux of this theory is that symbolically Harry is consciousness and Voldemort is unconsciousness. ... First of all my sincere thanks and compliments
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 24, 2004
            --- mclellyn <ellyn337@...> wrote:

            The crux of this theory is that symbolically Harry is
            consciousness and Voldemort is unconsciousness.
            ---------------------------------

            First of all my sincere thanks and compliments for
            that magnificent post, Gadfly. This is exactly the
            type of well thought out argument this group would
            receive. I'm thrilled at this contribution.

            My dreams for the future of the group is to have
            Buddhists, Theosophists, Yogi's etc. as members.

            I can look at things only from the point of view of an
            apprentice alchemist and that's how I will answer this
            post. What I'm going to say was previously only taught
            in Mystery Schools and will probably shock people who
            have never come across these theories.

            I agree that Voldemort is related closely to the
            subconscious.

            To understand him from an alchemical point of view we
            have to see the human being as a microcosm, as
            explained in my last post. This means that there is a
            lot more to the human being than his physical body. I
            believe that the microcosm has a physical
            manifestation at times, but that this manifestation
            dies after "threescore years and ten", more or less,
            and that the microcosm is left empty before it adopts
            a new physical body.

            Have you ever wondered where Mozart got his incredible
            talent? Or Leonardo da Vinci? Or Julius Caesar? These
            people were extremely gifted at a very young age. I
            believe, and most people agree, that everything has a
            cause. My explanation for talent, or lack thereof, and
            goodness and wickedness, in people, is that an empty
            microcosm has endowed a baby with these talents. These
            talents were given to the microcosm by all the
            previous inhabitants who have ever lived in it. Have
            you ever thought about how a microcosm might store
            these things between physical manifestations? My
            theory is that every microcosm has electromagnetic
            fields of energy. These fields of energy manifest
            themselves in the physical personality through the
            subconscious mind. If a baby is adopted by a microcosm
            with an extremely intense concentration of energy
            which expresses itself as an interest in music, then
            the young person will feel an intense desire to play
            and listen to music. The young musician will still
            have to learn all the skills to play music, but the
            desire to do this is so intense and overwhelming that
            it seems easy for the person concerned. It isn't any
            easier; it's just that the subconscious craving is so
            extreme.

            Basically there are 12 such electromagnetic fields in
            every microcosm. These could be thought of as twelve
            stars in the shell of the microcosm. Some of the
            fields are weak, some very powerful. Together these
            fields form a collective field, which fills the whole
            microcosm. This collective field has a consciousness
            and controls the physical personality through the
            subconscious mind. That is Voldemort!

            Voldemort is the immortal part of our microcosm. When
            we die, he doesn't. He is thousands of year old. He is
            our creator in the sense that he has given us all our
            inclinations, our talents, our morality, our loves and
            hates. This is what JK Rowling means by Voldemort
            reaching immortality.

            Quirrell is quite right when he says there is no good
            or evil; there is only power. Our own personal
            Voldemort is neither good nor evil. He is what the
            previous inhabitants of our microcosm have made him,
            and what we are making of him through our actions in
            this life. He has no sense of morality; he is
            impersonal. He is merely the sum total of all our past
            actions. If we are "good" then he will be good. If we
            are "evil", he will be evil. His only concern is his
            power over us.

            In my last post I said that there is something else in
            the microcosm, namely the latent Christ nucleus. So
            behold the microcosm today: the human being of flesh
            and blood with his etheric, astral and mental bodies
            and the threefold consciousness, and surrounding him
            the Voldemort with his 12 power centres, while in the
            heart there is the latent Christ-seed. And this human
            microcosm goes on endless cycles of birth and death,
            while the inner Christ waits for his chance for Life.

            Then one day Harry Potter is born. The Christ-seed
            germinates and an unearthly light begins to emanate
            from the very centre of the microcosm. This light has
            not shone since the end of the Fall, millions of years
            ago. This light is totally disharmonious to our
            Voldemort! It is totally disharmonious to our goodness
            and our evil, which are only relative and subjective;
            it is disharmonious to all our talents and
            inclinations. Voldemort knows that once the inner
            Christ is born, his days are numbered. One cannot live
            while the other survives. The self of matter and the
            self of spirit can never meet. He has no choice but to
            kill the new soul. However the thirst for liberation
            and the purity of the person concerned ensure that the
            inner Christ cannot be harmed. The Bible calls this
            the flight to Egypt.

            As long as the Christ in the heart is asleep Voldemort
            is our friend, our god, our higher self as the
            Theosophists call it. But the moment the new, immortal
            soul is born, the higher self becomes our Satan, our
            adversary. If we persevere, and surrender our self to
            our Harry Potter, he will liberate the microcosm as
            described in my essay. We ourselves, the mortal soul,
            will die in the process. We will sacrifice our finite
            life for him. But if we are willing to lose our life
            for his sake we will keep it. If Ron is willing to
            sacrifice himself for Harry he will live forever in
            Harry and he will enter the Father's House to be
            embraced by the Father. Ron's sacrifice will mean the
            end of Voldemort, because if the earthly soul dies, so
            will Voldemort. He will dissipate like a column of
            smoke. There can be no vacuum in the microcosm and
            Voldemort's place will be taken by an angel of light.
            Revelations describe this angel as a woman clothed
            with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her
            head a crown of twelve stars (I don't know if Jo will
            bring this figure in to the story).

            So, to sum up: I agree that Voldemort is the
            unconscious (I prefer subconscious). We have nothing
            to fear if we do what our subconscious mind tells us.
            But beware if Harry Potter is born in your heart!
            Voldemort will try to kill him and if he doesn't, your
            life will be the battlefield between Voldemort and
            Harry. You will have to decide constantly whom to
            support, and you will be tempted by Voldemort. There
            is no reconciliation possible by these two in my
            opinion, Gadfly. We will have only two choices in the
            end: support Voldemort and let him kill Harry, or
            sacrifice ourselves and thus dissolve in the
            alchemical process, to be resurrected after three days
            as part of the Son of the Potter.

            Sorry, Gadfly, no swatting; just a pat on the back for
            your beautiful post.

            Hans


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          • mclellyn
            ... Gadfly: I can live with substituting subconscious for unconscious. Though there are people where the word unconscious is more appropriate. Of course,
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 26, 2004
              > --- mclellyn wrote:
              >
              > The crux of this theory is that symbolically Harry is
              > consciousness and Voldemort is unconsciousness.
              > ---------------------------------

              Hans wrote:
              >
              > I agree that Voldemort is related closely to the
              > subconscious.

              Gadfly: I can live with substituting subconscious for unconscious.
              Though there are people where the word unconscious is more
              appropriate. Of course, none of them are members of this group!

              Hans wrote:
              >
              > Have you ever wondered where Mozart got his incredible
              > talent? Or Leonardo da Vinci? Or Julius Caesar? These
              > people were extremely gifted at a very young age. I
              > believe, and most people agree, that everything has a
              > cause. My explanation for talent, or lack thereof, and
              > goodness and wickedness, in people, is that an empty
              > microcosm has endowed a baby with these talents. These
              > talents were given to the microcosm by all the
              > previous inhabitants who have ever lived in it. Have
              > you ever thought about how a microcosm might store
              > these things between physical manifestations? My
              > theory is that every microcosm has electromagnetic
              > fields of energy. These fields of energy manifest
              > themselves in the physical personality through the
              > subconscious mind. If a baby is adopted by a microcosm
              > with an extremely intense concentration of energy
              > which expresses itself as an interest in music, then
              > the young person will feel an intense desire to play
              > and listen to music. The young musician will still
              > have to learn all the skills to play music, but the
              > desire to do this is so intense and overwhelming that
              > it seems easy for the person concerned. It isn't any
              > easier; it's just that the subconscious craving is so
              > extreme.

              Gadfly again:
              Regarding talent, I have a theory that the statement in PS/SS (82
              paperback) where Mr. Ollivander says "--it's really the wand that
              chooses the wizard, of course" is an analogy for talent. In other
              words, it's really the talent that chooses the person. So I found
              this part or your post quite interesting.

              Hans wrote:
              > Quirrell is quite right when he says there is no good
              > or evil; there is only power. Our own personal
              > Voldemort is neither good nor evil. He is what the
              > previous inhabitants of our microcosm have made him,
              > and what we are making of him through our actions in
              > this life. He has no sense of morality; he is
              > impersonal. He is merely the sum total of all our past
              > actions. If we are "good" then he will be good. If we are "evil",
              he will be evil. His only concern is his
              > power over us.
              >
              Gadfly again:

              This may be shocking to you, but I quite agree!! Joseph Campbell in
              POWER OF THE MYTH put it this way (this book is a transcript of an
              interview):

              p80 paperback "CAMPBELL: People ask me, "Do you have optimism about
              the world?" And I say, "Yes, it's great just the way it is. And you
              are never going to fix it up. Nobody has ever made it any better.
              It is never going to be any better. This is it, so take it or leave
              it. Your are not going to correct or improve it."

              MOYERS: Doesn't that lead to a rather passive attitude in the face
              of evil?

              Campbell: You yourself are participating in evil, or you are not
              alive. Whatever you do is evil for somebody. This is one of the
              ironies of the whole creation."

              page 84

              "CAMPBELL: The teacher(Indian Guru) in this tradition always answers
              questions. He doesn't tell you anything you are not yet ready to
              hear. So I said, "Yes, I have a question. Since in Hindu thinking
              everything in the universe is a manifestation of divinity itself, how
              should we say no to anything in the world? How should we say no to
              brutality, to stupidity, to vulgarity, to thoughtlessness?"

              And he (Sri Krishna Menon) answered, "For you and me -- the way is to
              say yes."

              We then had a wonderful talk on this theme of the affirmation of all
              things. And it confirmed me in the feeling I had that who are we
              to judge? It seems to me that this is one of the great teachings,
              also, of Jesus. "

              Thought this would be interesting to you. Thanks for the pats on the
              back.

              Gadfly McLellyn
            • Hans Rieuwers
              Gadfly: I can live with substituting subconscious for unconscious. Though there are people where the word unconscious is more appropriate. Of course, none
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 26, 2004
                Gadfly: I can live with substituting subconscious for
                unconscious. Though there are people where the word
                unconscious is more appropriate. Of course, none of
                them are members of this group!
                _____________________

                Thanks for the compliment!

                Seriously, I wonder whether you might be able to tell
                us just exactly what the difference is between the
                unconscious and the subconscious.

                Hans





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              • kelly broughton
                I apologise for such a short reply, but to me it s rather simple, and the prefixes make it quite easy to differentiate: unconscious = not knowing subconscious
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 26, 2004
                  I apologise for such a short reply, but to me it's rather simple, and the
                  prefixes make it quite easy to differentiate:

                  unconscious = not knowing
                  subconscious = knowing underneath the knowing

                  If this confuses, I beg pardon.

                  --- Hans Rieuwers <hansrieuwers@...> wrote:

                  > Gadfly: I can live with substituting subconscious for
                  > unconscious. Though there are people where the word
                  > unconscious is more appropriate. Of course, none of
                  > them are members of this group!
                  > _____________________
                  >
                  > Thanks for the compliment!
                  >
                  > Seriously, I wonder whether you might be able to tell
                  > us just exactly what the difference is between the
                  > unconscious and the subconscious.
                  >
                  > Hans




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                • Hans Rieuwers
                  ... I apologise for such a short reply, but to me it s rather simple, and the prefixes make it quite easy to differentiate: unconscious = not knowing
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 27, 2004
                    --- kelly broughton <kellybroughton@...> wrote:


                    I apologise for such a short reply, but to me it's
                    rather simple, and the
                    prefixes make it quite easy to differentiate:

                    unconscious = not knowing
                    subconscious = knowing underneath the knowing

                    If this confuses, I beg pardon.

                    _________________________________

                    Thanks Kelly.

                    I was actually looking for a more technical
                    explanation. I should have asked, "what is the
                    difference, if any, between the unconscious mind and
                    the subconscious mind?"

                    What I'm wondering about really is why Jung always
                    uses the word "unconscious" and other people use
                    "subconscious" to describe part of the human psyche.

                    Is there a psychologist in the house?

                    Hans

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                  • C. W.R.
                    That does make it quite simple & easily differentiated. Thank you. Best wishes, Cynthia White Rutter ... ===== Green Tara is the wisdom form of all the buddhas
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 27, 2004
                      That does make it quite simple & easily
                      differentiated.
                      Thank you.
                      Best wishes,
                      Cynthia White Rutter

                      --- kelly broughton <kellybroughton@...> wrote:

                      > I apologise for such a short reply, but to me it's
                      > rather simple, and the
                      > prefixes make it quite easy to differentiate:
                      >
                      > unconscious = not knowing
                      > subconscious = knowing underneath the knowing
                      >
                      > If this confuses, I beg pardon.
                      >
                      > --- Hans Rieuwers <hansrieuwers@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Gadfly: I can live with substituting subconscious
                      > for
                      > > unconscious. Though there are people where the
                      > word
                      > > unconscious is more appropriate. Of course, none
                      > of
                      > > them are members of this group!
                      > > _____________________
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for the compliment!
                      > >
                      > > Seriously, I wonder whether you might be able to
                      > tell
                      > > us just exactly what the difference is between the
                      > > unconscious and the subconscious.
                      > >
                      > > Hans
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _______________________________
                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter
                      > now.
                      > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
                      >
                      >


                      =====
                      Green Tara is the wisdom form of all the buddhas and bodhisattvas. Embodied in a single form, it is said that her blessings are swifter than those of any other deity, leading to ultimate wisdom.



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                    • Marianna Marinda
                      ... us just exactly what the difference is between the unconscious and the subconscious. Hans
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 27, 2004
                        >Seriously, I wonder whether you might be able to tell
                        us just exactly what the difference is between the
                        unconscious and the subconscious.

                        Hans<

                        Awareness! One who is unconscious of something, is not even aware that he
                        isn't aware of it... (it is a passive non-awareness). Subconscious refers to
                        not being aware of something, which is part of the mass of stuff one is
                        aware they don't know (an active knowledge of non-awareness). Make sense?

                        I'd say Voldemort represents subconscious... He doesn't understand love, but
                        it is because he (consciously/actively) pursues power in a different way.
                        On the other hand, the mass of the wizarding world, like Fudge in the end of
                        GOF, and others like him, have inherited much of their ignorant way of
                        living, and don't even know they don't know something. Therefore they are
                        unwilling to learn about it, either. This is passive non-awareness, aka
                        ignorance- in my opinion an even harder block to overcome _because_ of its
                        passive nature.

                        :)
                        Marianna
                      • Hans Rieuwers
                        Hans wrote originally: Quirrell is quite right when he says there is no good or evil; there is only power. Our own personal Voldemort is neither good nor evil.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Aug 28, 2004
                          Hans wrote originally:
                          Quirrell is quite right when he says there is no good
                          or evil; there is only power. Our own personal
                          Voldemort is neither good nor evil. He is what the
                          previous inhabitants of our microcosm have made him,
                          and what we are making of him through our actions in
                          this life. He has no sense of morality; he is
                          impersonal. He is merely the sum total of all our past
                          actions. If we are "good" then he will be good. If we
                          are "evil", he will be evil. His only concern is his
                          power over us.

                          Gadfly answered:
                          This may be shocking to you, but I quite agree!!
                          Joseph Campbell in POWER OF THE MYTH put it this way
                          (this book is a transcript of an interview):

                          p80 paperback "CAMPBELL: People ask me, "Do you have
                          optimism about the world?" And I say, "Yes, it's
                          great just the way it is. And you are never going to
                          fix it up. Nobody has ever made it any better. It is
                          never going to be any better. This is it, so take it
                          or leave it. Your are not going to correct or improve
                          it."

                          MOYERS: Doesn't that lead to a rather passive
                          attitude in the face of evil?

                          Campbell: You yourself are participating in evil, or
                          you are not alive. Whatever you do is evil for
                          somebody. This is one of the ironies of the whole
                          creation."

                          ------------------------------------
                          Hans NOW:

                          How refreshing! Yes, in this (part of the) universe
                          good and evil are inseparable. To put it even more
                          starkly: good and evil are the fruits of the same
                          tree.

                          It would be even more correct to say, and I honestly
                          believe this, that good and evil do not exist. You
                          cannot define them. Good and evil are purely
                          subjective. What I call evil is what I regard as
                          harmful to me. What you call evil is what you consider
                          to be harmful to you. Sometimes what we consider evil
                          turns out to be good for us.

                          It is impossible to improve the world. We humans have
                          tried again and again in the past, and always we have
                          failed. Whole civilisations have come and gone, all to
                          no avail. When one government brings in laws to
                          improve things, a later government will rip it all
                          down again and do the opposite. If a religion comes to
                          raise ethical and moral standards, a counter movement
                          will eventually undo everything. If we try to destroy
                          insects so we can grow more food the pesticides will
                          kill us instead of the hunger.

                          There IS no solution to poverty, disease, human
                          trafficking, drugs, pollution, you name it. Why not?
                          Because this universe is not our true home and
                          therefore outside of the divine plan. During the Fall
                          humanity stopped working on the divine plan and
                          started working on its own plans, which were
                          experimental and egocentric. Jacob Boehme says that
                          God closed off part of the universe for fallen
                          humanity. He called this the house of wrath. In the
                          house of wrath creations can never be permanent.
                          Anything we try to create will crystallise, crumble
                          and die, just as our bodies do. And there is no good
                          and evil here because EVERYTHING here is outside of
                          the divine plan. The divine plan is incapable of being
                          carried out in this house of wrath, this vast prison
                          which humanity has created for itself in the countless
                          millennia behind us. If we have to insist on having
                          things defined as good and evil I would have to say
                          that no one is good - only God is good. And everything
                          in the House of God is good. And everything outside of
                          it isn't.

                          But HARRY POTTER is bringing us a new message: We CAN
                          be liberated from the house of wrath and return to the
                          House of God. THAT in my opinion is the hidden message
                          in Harry Potter. That was was Jesus was trying to tell
                          us; that was what Gautama the Buddha was trying to
                          tell us; that's what all the great teachers of
                          liberation were telling us. And today we are the
                          privileged witnesses to another call from the House of
                          God to return. The Fall took a long time and was a
                          long journey, and so is the return, but it can be done
                          by us and it has to be done. The only way back to God
                          is the transmutation and transfiguration process as
                          symbolically told in the Alchemical Wedding of
                          Christian Rosycross and Harry Potter, and by all the
                          great messengers of the past. I have given a brief
                          outline in my essay: Harry Potter - Christian
                          Rosycross in Jeans.
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/files/

                          The incredible power and majesty of the Mind behind
                          Harry Potter never ceases to fill me with tingling
                          excitement and wonder.

                          Hans

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