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Harry (8) and a WARNING

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  • Hans Rieuwers
    Leaving the unconscious Ron behind, Harry and Hermione enter a room where they are trapped by fire and can neither go forwards nor backwards until they solve a
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 23, 2004
      Leaving the unconscious Ron behind, Harry and Hermione
      enter a room where they are trapped by fire and can
      neither go forwards nor backwards until they solve a
      logic puzzle. Obviously it is Hermione who solves the
      puzzle, as she personifies the renewed mind.

      My interpretation of this symbolism is that an
      apprentice alchemist must act with intelligence if
      progress is to be made. Although the heart, the centre
      of the new soul, always takes the initiative on the
      Path, the head must ensure the candidate takes logical
      and intelligent actions. Together they succeed.

      I just want to digress slightly and ask you all a
      question. This is a short extract from the book:
      'Hermione's lip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at
      Harry and threw her arms around him.
      "Hermione!"
      "Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know."
      "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very
      embarrassed, as she let go of him.
      "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are
      more important things -- friendship and bravery and --
      oh Harry -- be careful!"'

      As you can see above, Hermione says, "Friendship and
      bravery and --" And what? Ever since the first time I
      read this I've thought that she was going to say,
      "love", but was too embarrassed to say it. I thought
      it was obvious, in fact, that everyone else would
      think the same. After some years now I've found that
      no one else has this thought at all. My question to
      you is, what do you think is the missing word?

      Back to Harry. There is only one draft of the magic
      potion to get into the next room, so Harry goes in
      alone. The new soul has to face this trial alone.
      Whenever the soul is facing a be all and end all
      situation, it has to act on its own inner strength.

      When Harry enters the next room he meets a man with
      two faces - one in front and one behind. I believe
      this is to indicate that the higher self (microcosmic
      self) is both good and evil. This is why the man says,
      "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and
      those too weak to seek it...." As I said in my
      discussion of Voldemort, the microcosmic self is
      impersonal and knows no good or evil, just power.

      Harry is able to take the stone out of the Mirror of
      Erised because he doesn't want to use the stone. I
      believe this symbolises the liberation of the soul
      from ATTACHMENT to the physical plane. The stone can
      make gold and the elixir of life. In other words, the
      owner of the stone can live an unending life in
      perfect health, with all the luxury he wants.

      I have written the word "attachment" in capital
      letters because there could be some misunderstanding
      about what I said. Brianna said, "In many spiritual
      traditions, the physical world is considered good."
      And Alison said, "I find HP tremendously life
      affirming - *this* physical life affirming." I don't
      mind people disagreeing with me (6 000 000 000 people
      disagree with me), but let's make sure we disagree
      about the right thing. I didn't say there was anything
      wrong with the physical plane. I said that Harry
      overcomes his ATTACHMENT to it. In other words, he is
      not its slave, but has become its master. He is not
      subject to desires that shackle him to the physical
      world.

      I have never said there's anything wrong with the
      physical plane. What I have said is this:

      The seventh cosmic plane in its present state has
      fallen below the vibration rate of the original
      sevenfold House of God, due to the Fall (or, if you
      like, the descent) of man. This whole universe is
      therefore "kindled in wrath" as Jacob Boehme puts it.
      This whole universe, including the physical, the
      etheric, the astral, the mental, and the three planes
      of the consciousness are all situated outside of the
      Divine Plan. Tao is not in them. Nirvana is outside of
      them. The Kingdom of Heaven is not in here. Our
      purpose is to LEAVE all the seven sub-planes of the
      seventh cosmic plane and re-enter the Divine Universe,
      the Sixth Cosmic Plane. That, in my humble opinion, is
      what Harry Potter is telling us. This is what I've
      been trying to tell the world and I haven't finished
      yet.

      As I have said several times in earlier posts, the
      human being is bound to this universe with seven
      chains. One chain is to the physical plane, one to the
      etheric plane, one to the astral, and so on. I have
      been saying constantly that each book successively
      shows Harry's liberation from one of the seven chains.
      In my series of posts on Harry I will show (once
      again) how Harry liberates himself from another chain
      each time.

      I can quite understand that many people don't agree
      that this universe is fallen. As I said before, I
      guess some 6 billion people disagree with me, and I'm
      fine with that. No problem. However I do want the
      members of this group to understand that I don't have
      any objection to the physical plane above the others.

      To experience this world as a fallen one is not a
      mental experience but a deeply felt spiritual
      experience in the heart. For in the heart lies buried
      an infinitesimally small spark of Tao. And this little
      Tao longs for the Living Water as a stag longs for the
      water streams.

      I'm not writing fan fiction, dear friends. James the
      stag is a symbol for The Ultimate Reality - the
      longing of the captive inner Christ to return to the
      Father's bosom. Those who have the stag know this as a
      burning homesickness for a universe where our real
      origins lie. By 'our' I mean our deepest spiritual,
      immortal and eternal self, not the being of flesh and
      blood, which will go the way of all flesh. Harry
      Potter is calling those people who know this
      homesickness. If you have ever been homesick you will
      know that the present place you're in seems paler,
      less vibrant, less satisfying than the place you're
      homesick for. Here's a quote from the Buddha: "Even if
      the earth were all that poets have dreamt of it, even
      if all evil were abolished, even if every sorrow were
      terminated, even if every joy were intensified, every
      beauty sublimated, and even if everything in this
      world were to be exalted to its utmost perfection, the
      soul would yet be tired of all this, and, devoid of
      every desire, would turn itself away. This earth has
      become a prison for it, and, no matter how well
      decorated the cell, the soul hankers for the free,
      unrestricted atmosphere outside of the oppressive
      walls. And the so called heavenly plane of the dead is
      equally as unattractive as the physical plane. Of this
      also it is weary. These heavenly joys have also lost
      their attraction. Nor do the joys of one's own
      emotions and intellectual pleasures offer the
      slightest satisfaction, for they, too, come and go,
      perishable as they are, just like the stimuli of the
      senses, restricted, ephemeral and unsatisfying as they
      are. The soul becomes tired of all these changes, and
      out of weariness it calls aloud for liberation". (my
      translation)

      There may be people reading this who haven't the
      slightest understanding of what I'm talking about.
      That's OK. Lily is not interested in James. That time
      will come.

      If you feel Harry Potter shows that life on the
      physical plane should be lived to the full and enjoyed
      to the maximum: I have no worry about that. I invite
      you with all my warmth and encouragement to show us.
      If you think I'm wrong, show us! I'll give every
      encouragement to every poster no matter what their
      religious/moral/ethical/philosophical views.

      The only thing I ask is courtesy, sensitivity etc, as
      clearly displayed on the home page. Please also be
      aware that politeness is not the same as courtesy. I
      attach a very old fashioned meaning to that word! The
      word "court" is there.

      As I said to Brianna, please consider this forum a
      marketplace for ideas about Harry Potter. Feel free to
      display your opinions as wares for the public to
      scrutinise, and let them make their own choices. But
      we stallholders don't make derogatory comments about
      each other. We respect each other with courtesy and
      sensitivity.

      SUICIDE
      Finally I want to comment on Alison's remarks about
      suicide. "The former view, taken to extremes, almost
      makes suicide seem an attractive option - a short cut
      out of the pit! The only drawback being in leaving
      others behind to suffer."

      I know this is getting away from Harry Potter, but if
      I can do anything to prevent anyone ever letting this
      idea enter their head, I'll do it no matter what.
      Suicide is NOT A SHORTCUT OUT OF THE PIT!!! Some of
      you may be highly incredulous, but this is what, in
      the theory of liberation, happens when you destroy
      your physical body with your own action: you go
      through a gate in a wall and you think you've left
      this world. Then you discover there's another wall
      behind the first one. The gate you've gone through has
      slammed shut and you're trapped between two walls.

      What normally happens when you die naturally is that
      when you've lost your physical body you go on living
      in your etheric body for a while, and then in your
      astral. However the suicide victim is trapped inside
      his etheric body but is stuck to the physical plane.
      He's like Nearly Headless Nick: he can't go on to
      where the dead normally go.

      In addition he is constantly confronted with the fact
      of his self-murder and he experiences his act again
      and again like a film loop. On top of that his etheric
      body hankers after the physical body and the victim
      feels a dull ache all over his body, like a tooth
      ache. And to make matters worse he can see the
      grieving friends and relatives without being able to
      communicate with them.

      He stays in that situation until he would have
      normally died (the archetype stops vibrating) and then
      immediately reincarnates to continue where he left
      off.

      I once had the ghastly experience of being rung by
      someone who had taken an overdose. She wanted me to
      pray while she died. I told her what she was doing was
      very wrong and that she should give me her address.
      She said, "God will forgive me". That may be so,
      friends, but we still have to take the consequences.
      If we plunge our arm into boiling water God may
      forgive us, but we can't escape the consequences. I'm
      afraid to my deep regret I was unable to persuade the
      lady to change her mind. If I can stop this idea ever
      entering anyone's head I'll be very grateful indeed.

      Warm regards to all,
      Hans



      ___________________________________________________________
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    • M.Clifford
      ... Valky: Hi Hans, I am still reading this really great post of yours but I d just like to stop and answer your question. The missing word is.........
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 25, 2004
        --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, Hans Rieuwers
        <hansrieuwers@y...> wrote:
        > I just want to digress slightly and ask you all a
        > question. This is a short extract from the book:
        > 'Hermione's lip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at
        > Harry and threw her arms around him.
        > "Hermione!"
        > "Harry -- you're a great wizard, you know."
        > "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very
        > embarrassed, as she let go of him.
        > "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are
        > more important things -- friendship and bravery and --
        > oh Harry -- be careful!"'
        >
        > As you can see above, Hermione says, "Friendship and
        > bravery and --" And what? Ever since the first time I
        > read this I've thought that she was going to say,
        > "love", but was too embarrassed to say it. I thought
        > it was obvious, in fact, that everyone else would
        > think the same. After some years now I've found that
        > no one else has this thought at all. My question to
        > you is, what do you think is the missing word?
        >


        Valky:
        Hi Hans, I am still reading this really great post of yours but I'd
        just like to stop and answer your question.
        The missing word is.........
        Incommunicable.

        I agree with you that it is Love, but I also think that Hermione was
        too young to grasp the word for it. In a later book I am sure she
        will call it Love, but at this point she will understand better what
        she means by saying this word, she will as an older person be able
        to realise that Love is the thing she couldn't put words to on that
        day in Book 1.
        And so will Harry.
      • M.Clifford
        ... Valky: This part of the story directly correlates to the line of the prophecy ....one must die by the hand of the other for neither can live while the
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 25, 2004
          --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, Hans Rieuwers
          <hansrieuwers@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Harry is able to take the stone out of the Mirror of
          > Erised because he doesn't want to use the stone. I
          > believe this symbolises the liberation of the soul
          > from ATTACHMENT to the physical plane. The stone can
          > make gold and the elixir of life. In other words, the
          > owner of the stone can live an unending life in
          > perfect health, with all the luxury he wants.
          >

          Valky:
          This part of the story directly correlates to the line of the
          prophecy ....one must die by the hand of the other for neither can
          live while the other survives.....

          I would like to line up the elements of these two ways of the end of
          the story and break it down.

          BOOK 1 BOOK 7
          The Man with Two Faces HP & LV "...but in essence divided"
          The Mirror of Erised HP an LV yearn for it to end.
          The Stone The Victory of one or the other
          The Weapons LVs immortal power/domination v HP's Love


          and each of these elements in the prophecy:

          1. Two Faces: the Dark Lord and the One
          2. The Mirror and the stone, One must extract the stone from the
          mirror: One must die at the hand of the other.
          3. The Weapons: For neither can live while the other survives.

          What I see in this breakdown is how the prophecy should be
          interpreted. One must die at the hand of the other, parrallels to
          the two parties trying to obtain the stone from the mirror.
          As we know Harry was able to obtain the stone because of his lack of
          attachment to it. The very reason LV is not able to take it.
          Putting two and two together I would say that the clever magic DD
          used to protect the stone is much like the ancient magic invoked by
          the attack on infant Harry.

          ie "Only the one who wanted to *find* the stone - find it but not
          use it - would be able to get it."
          Herein is the key to Harry's defeat of Voldemort. Only he who wants
          to find the Victory - find it but not use it - will be able to get
          it."
        • Timothy Collinson
          ... Faithfulness? Just a thought. Not sure I convince even myself, but it alliterates nicely with friendship and might be what Hermione sees in Harry. tc
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 26, 2004
            > no one else has this thought at all. My question to
            > you is, what do you think is the missing word?


            Faithfulness?

            Just a thought. Not sure I convince even myself, but it alliterates nicely
            with 'friendship' and might be what Hermione sees in Harry.

            tc
          • Linda McCabe
            Well, I will say that this very subject has been a topic of discussion by H/Hr shippers, and the consensus has been that Hermione had wanted to say Love but
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 26, 2004
              Well, I will say that this very subject has been a topic of discussion by H/Hr shippers, and the consensus has been that Hermione had wanted to say "Love" but held her tongue on that.  It does seem more likely to me than anything else.  And should Love be the overwhelming power that destroys Voldemort in the end, and that Harry is filled with it, I think it would be a more powerful scene to come upon during re-reading of the series if Hermione's love for Harry had been steadfast to him from the beginning.
               
              Had to throw that in there!
               
              Athena

              Timothy Collinson <timothy.collinson@...> wrote:



              > no one else has this thought at all. My question to
              > you is, what do you think is the missing word?


              Faithfulness?

              Just a thought.  Not sure I convince even myself, but it alliterates nicely
              with 'friendship' and might be what Hermione sees in Harry.

              tc











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            • Alison Williams
              ... I m not convinced she had any particular word in mind. I ve often said ...and... without knowing exactly what might come out next! Its especially
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 26, 2004
                >I just want to digress slightly and ask you all a question. This is a short
                >extract from the book:'Hermione's lip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at
                >Harry and threw her arms around him. "Hermione!" "Harry -- you're a great
                >wizard, you know." "I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed,
                >as she let go of him. "Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There
                >are more important things -- friendship and bravery and -- oh Harry -- be
                >careful!"'

                I'm not convinced she had any particular word in mind. I've often said
                "...and..." without knowing exactly what might come out next! Its
                especially likely if you're in the middle of an adventure and also
                struggling to find words to articulate feelings. And - a point for the
                shippers - at this moment Ron has only just got himself whacked by the white
                queen, so presumably she might be thinking of him and his friendship and
                bravery as much as of Harry and his.

                Alison
              • Hans Rieuwers
                ... This part of the story directly correlates to the line of the prophecy ....one must die by the hand of the other for neither can live while the other
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 27, 2004
                  --- "M.Clifford" <Aisbelmon@...> wrote:

                  This part of the story directly correlates to the line
                  of the prophecy ....one must die by the hand of the
                  other for neither can live while the other
                  survives.....

                  One must die at the hand of the other, parallels to
                  the two parties trying to obtain the stone from the
                  mirror. As we know Harry was able to obtain the stone
                  because of his lack of attachment to it. The very
                  reason LV is not able to take it.

                  "Only the one who wanted to *find* the stone - find it
                  but not use it - would be able to get it." Herein is
                  the key to Harry's defeat of Voldemort. "Only he who
                  wants to find the Victory - find it but not use it -
                  will be able to get it."
                  ---------------------------------------

                  Thanks very much indeed for that thoughtful and heart
                  warming post, Valky! Yes, I agree with you. That's
                  Harry all over!

                  Your post is very much in agreement with Iris' post
                  that each of the seven trials in book 1 corresponds to
                  each of the seven books. This is a very logical and
                  likely hypothesis, but I still have trouble seeing it,
                  apart from the one above, so I hope Iris will try to
                  explain it again clearly to my numb brain.

                  By the way, thanks to all the people who replied to my
                  original post "Harry (8)". It's good to know people
                  are actually reading my posts. The only way to keep
                  the discussion alive is to contribute, even if it's a
                  small point. So well done folks!

                  Yours gratefully,
                  Hans

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                • M.Clifford
                  ... Valky: Thankyou Hans, I have left the investigation unfinished, though. The words of the prophecy ....for neither can live while the other survives...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 29, 2004
                    > --- "M.Clifford" <Aisbelmon@h...> wrote:
                    >
                    > This part of the story directly correlates to the line
                    > of the prophecy ....one must die by the hand of the
                    > other for neither can live while the other
                    > survives.....
                    >
                    > One must die at the hand of the other, parallels to
                    > the two parties trying to obtain the stone from the
                    > mirror. As we know Harry was able to obtain the stone
                    > because of his lack of attachment to it. The very
                    > reason LV is not able to take it.
                    >
                    > "Only the one who wanted to *find* the stone - find it
                    > but not use it - would be able to get it." Herein is
                    > the key to Harry's defeat of Voldemort. "Only he who
                    > wants to find the Victory - find it but not use it -
                    > will be able to get it."
                    > ---------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Thanks very much indeed for that thoughtful and heart
                    > warming post, Valky! Yes, I agree with you. That's
                    > Harry all over!
                    >
                    > Your post is very much in agreement with Iris' post
                    > that each of the seven trials in book 1 corresponds to
                    > each of the seven books. This is a very logical and
                    > likely hypothesis, but I still have trouble seeing it,
                    > apart from the one above, so I hope Iris will try to
                    > explain it again clearly to my numb brain.
                    > Hans

                    Valky:
                    Thankyou Hans, I have left the investigation unfinished, though.

                    The words of the prophecy ....for neither can live while the other
                    survives... according to this lead applies to the weapons that LV
                    and Harry use on each other in the finale of the Man with Two Faces.

                    The first thing that springs to mind is LV saying "Use the boy." in
                    order to get the stone.
                    Firstly this parrallels the end of GOF when LV uses Harry's blood
                    for his ressurrection, which has the second purpose of enabling LV
                    to physically harm Harry. Harry fights this weapon in the mirror
                    room AND in GOF with pure will and faith, and is victorious.
                    Secondly it parrallels OOtP when Harry is again *used* to take
                    possession of a *victory* for LV. Harry is prompted by his mentors
                    to use will and faith to fight this attack as he has done in the
                    past but on this occasion Harry turns his will on his protectors,
                    and is losing his faith. In the end his victory is regaining them.

                    The second weapon that comes to mind, which LV uses in The Man With
                    Two Faces is Persuasion and Fear through his talk of Infinite Power
                    and of Harry's Parents. Firstly this parrallels COS when Tom Riddle
                    attempts to persuade and intimidate Harry with power and reasoning,
                    and in both Cos and in Book 1 Harry overcomes the persuasion and
                    fear with Loyalty and Courage. Secondly Fear (especially) and
                    persuasion come strongly into play in POA, Harry experiences a great
                    deal of difficulty with fear here as he is pursued by the hideous
                    dementor creatures and believes that Sirius also pursues him. He
                    also has his first loyalty troubles with Ron in this book, again I
                    find that Harry's greatest victory is regaining these two powers
                    that he has lost.

                    There is one more weapon and I find that books six and seven are
                    primed to be the carriers of this message.
                    The weapon is of course Physical attack, in Book one Quirrel is
                    burned by the pure Love in Harry when he tries to take the stone
                    from him. Note that Harry *has the stone already*, going by our
                    previous investigation Harry will have *already won the victory*
                    when he is physically attacked by LV in the grand finale of the
                    series.

                    What I find interesting is the pattern in which it is likely to
                    occur. The pattern I have seen here tends to say that Harry commands
                    and uses his weapon well in the earlier books, but has lost it
                    somewhat in the latter one of the set of three. This goes to
                    indicate that Harry in HBP will easily enforce Love as a weapon, but
                    in Book seven he will be required to rebuild it inside himself, and
                    most interestingly, *that* will be his victory. *Not* defeating the
                    enemy but finding Love again, will be his final victory.

                    So as to neither can live while the other survives, how it relates
                    to each weapon, just for clarification:
                    Weapon Clash one: Control and Manipulation vs Will and Faith
                    Weapon clash two: Fear and Persuasion vs Loyalty and Courage
                    This two seem self explanatory to me.

                    Weapon Clash three is more confusing though and I think merits some
                    further discssion:
                    Killing Vs Love

                    Does anyone have any comments or corrections to make?

                    I just noticed that the three weapons LV uses also parrallel the
                    unforgivable curses.
                  • M.Clifford
                    ... in POA, Harry experiences a great deal of difficulty with fear here as he is pursued by the hideous dementor creatures and believes that Sirius also
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 29, 2004
                      I wrote:

                      > Secondly Fear (especially) and persuasion come strongly into play
                      in POA, Harry experiences a great deal of difficulty with fear here
                      as he is pursued by the hideous dementor creatures and believes that
                      Sirius also pursues him. He also has his first loyalty troubles with
                      Ron in this book, again I find that Harry's greatest victory is
                      regaining these two powers that he has lost.
                      >

                      Just a correction now, because I wrote this at a very late hour.
                      I said that Harry experiences his first loyalty troubles with Ron in
                      Book 3, but after thinking it over I think that I should have also
                      highlighted the loyalty troubles with Hermione, brought on by the
                      persuasion of the Firebolt, over which they are divided. There are
                      also the great divide between Ron and Hermione over their pets, and
                      the divide of Harry from his friends when he is unable to go to
                      Hogsmeade.


                      I also wrote:
                      > So as to neither can live while the other survives, how it relates
                      > to each weapon, just for clarification:
                      > Weapon Clash one: Control and Manipulation vs Will and Faith
                      > Weapon clash two: Fear and Persuasion vs Loyalty and Courage
                      > This two seem self explanatory to me.
                      >

                      And now I would like to add something here that has come to mind
                      since. The weapons that Harry uses are the same ones that Hermione
                      touts as being what makes a "great wizard" in book 1.
                      Let me show you: Will and Courage - add up to Bravery
                      Faith and Loyalty - add up to Friendship

                      Lily's Love is the last weapon of Harry's in his battle at the end
                      of Book1, so I feel I have some clear evidence here that the word
                      Hermione didn't say was, indeed, Love. What do you think?
                    • Marianna Marinda
                      ... of the prophecy ....one must die by the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives.....
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 7, 2005
                        A long time ago, Valky wrote:

                        >This part of the story directly correlates to the line
                        of the prophecy ....one must die by the hand of the
                        other for neither can live while the other
                        survives.....<

                        >One must die at the hand of the other, parallels to
                        the two parties trying to obtain the stone from the
                        mirror. As we know Harry was able to obtain the stone
                        because of his lack of attachment to it. The very
                        reason LV is not able to take it.<

                        >"Only the one who wanted to *find* the stone - find it
                        but not use it - would be able to get it." Herein is
                        the key to Harry's defeat of Voldemort. "Only he who
                        wants to find the Victory - find it but not use it -
                        will be able to get it."<

                        You know, this presented a strange but very interesting idea to me...

                        If book 7 is to be a parallel of book 1 (as I believe is definite), it makes
                        sense that the final battle with Voldemort might take on a pattern
                        paralleling this. What comes to mind is not about a stone of immortality (a
                        neutral object in the hands of light), but about power over dementors (a
                        *neutral!* object in the hands of darkness).

                        If you can picture a climaxic scenario involving a dementor/dementors in the
                        midst of the duel between Voldemort & Harry, where the ultimate influence
                        that either one has over it/them will make the difference as to who will
                        'get it' (the kiss of the dementor)... [Very much like in COS when they both
                        could speak to and influence the basilisk, even though Harry didn't use that
                        ability]... And then consider: 'Only the one who wants to *grant power to*
                        the dementor (such power having the quality of light or darkness, according
                        to the grantor) - grant power to it but *not use* it (which would qualify
                        it in an anti-free/restricted capacity) - would be able to get it."

                        Unconditional Love always wins!

                        [Note: the direction of power flow is what qualifies a dementor- draining
                        all around it would be the direction of dark energy flow, while showering
                        all around it would be the effect of its alter-ego, the result of
                        light-energy flow; a simple switch in the direction of energy flow! Turn on
                        the light!]

                        Wow- this is real interesting to me. Does it make sense to any of you?
                        :)
                        Marianna
                      • M.Clifford
                        ... me... ... Valky: Before responding to Marianna s comments, I would like to add an evolution of the analysis above to the fore. I wrote the above quote
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 7, 2005
                          > A long time ago, Valky wrote:
                          >
                          > >This part of the story directly correlates to the line
                          > of the prophecy ....one must die by the hand of the
                          > other for neither can live while the other
                          > survives.....<
                          >
                          > >One must die at the hand of the other, parallels to
                          > the two parties trying to obtain the stone from the
                          > mirror. As we know Harry was able to obtain the stone
                          > because of his lack of attachment to it. The very
                          > reason LV is not able to take it.<
                          >
                          > >"Only the one who wanted to *find* the stone - find it
                          > but not use it - would be able to get it." Herein is
                          > the key to Harry's defeat of Voldemort. "Only he who
                          > wants to find the Victory - find it but not use it -
                          > will be able to get it."<
                          >
                          Marianna:
                          > You know, this presented a strange but very interesting idea to
                          me...
                          >

                          Valky:
                          Before responding to Marianna's comments, I would like to add an
                          evolution of the analysis above to the fore. I wrote the above quote
                          while contemplating the polar opposites of Harry and Voldemorts
                          natures. The first identification that I made was Fear and Valour,
                          naturally inspired by the Wand Brothers Golden Orb scene in GOF.
                          Harry hears Phoenix Song, in that scene and I don't need to
                          reiterate (I think) what that means to a Brave Heart over and Impure
                          one. I haven't posted that peice here, but I will right away since I
                          expect to refer to it in discussion of the prophecy.
                          Since then, this pondering has taken on an evolution. "The Man with
                          Two Faces" is the name of the chapter, and clearly this is a plot
                          hint as we have since discovered the "connection" between LV and
                          Harry. Recognisably, it has metaphysical connotations as well.
                          This evolution combines the two, as did Fear and Valour.

                          It is about, as the heading of this thread suggests, Service and
                          Dominion.

                          "Masters" take two polar opposite forms in metaphysical theology
                          mythology, and in The Man With Two Faces, the polar opposite forms
                          of Harry and Voldemort attempting to gain possession of the stone
                          are equivalent ones to that of these abovementioned "Masters"

                          The Stone is power, and as Marianna says below, a *neutral* power.
                          In the hand of either master the power is turned to either Service
                          or Dominion. It was locked away by Dumbledore (In early books DD was
                          cast figuratively in an omnipotent role) only of avail to the owner
                          of the selfless desire.

                          The original "Master of the Stone", Nicholas Flamel, according to
                          history transfigured himself, and his stone, to the height of this
                          neutral power. In doing so he became aware of profound truths in his
                          heart and saw his life out acting in service to the world using the
                          stone. He did charitable works, and he expressed his *love* (truth)
                          into the world.

                          When Harry conquered *his* way to the stone, he was of the same
                          heart and mind. Standing before the mirror of erised Harry's hearts
                          desire made him possessor (Master) of the stone.

                          Harry's desire, at this point, was to serve. At the moment he was
                          placed within reaching distance of the neutral power he could only
                          think of how his victory would be a service.

                          Voldemort has his own hearts desire while in the presence of the
                          stone. Dominion.

                          Relating this, firstly, to the Prophecy again:

                          -- One must die by the hand of the other -- Using replacements...
                          either........
                          Service dies by the hand of Dominion
                          or....
                          Dominion dies by the hand of Service

                          And additionally:

                          --- for neither can live while the other survives ---
                          either.......
                          Service cannot live while Dominion survives.
                          or...
                          Dominion cannot live while Service survives.

                          In the first instance, to me, it is fairly obvious that the words
                          fit extraordinarily well. Dominion loses it's power to service, and
                          Service is the true way to overthrow dominion.

                          As Dominon grows Service wanes. The HP example of Dobby and Kreacher
                          is very potent here, the Malfoys domination over Dobby forces his
                          Servitude away from them. And Sirius' dominion over Kreacher is the
                          indirect cause of his death.

                          Vice Versa as service grows. In OOtP the people of Hogwarts follow
                          Harry's example and defy by *helping each other*, Fred and George's
                          mayhem is done to help Harry, MacGonagall makes a loud statement
                          about helping Harry to become and Auror and then of course there is
                          the DA, all these small services to each other eventually clump
                          together as a whole in the overthrowing of Dolores' Rule over
                          Hogwarts.

                          The second part is not so instantly obvious. Service cannot live
                          while Dominion survives - and inverted etc etc... but I can see
                          small ways it might be understood. (Since I am going on and on with
                          this I will leave it there for now...)

                          Mariana:
                          > If book 7 is to be a parallel of book 1 (as I believe is
                          definite), it makes sense that the final battle with Voldemort might
                          take on a pattern paralleling this. What comes to mind is not about
                          a stone of immortality (a neutral object in the hands of light), but
                          about power over dementors (a *neutral!* object in the hands of
                          darkness).
                          >
                          > If you can picture a climaxic scenario involving a
                          dementor/dementors in the midst of the duel between Voldemort &
                          Harry, where the ultimate influence that either one has over it/them
                          will make the difference as to who will 'get it' (the kiss of the
                          dementor)... [Very much like in COS when they both could speak to
                          and influence the basilisk, even though Harry didn't use that
                          ability]... And then consider: 'Only the one who wants to *grant
                          power to* the dementor (such power having the quality of light or
                          darkness, according to the grantor) - grant power to it but *not
                          use* it (which would qualify it in an anti-free/restricted
                          capacity) - would be able to get it."
                          >
                          > Unconditional Love always wins!
                          >
                          > [Note: the direction of power flow is what qualifies a dementor-
                          draining all around it would be the direction of dark energy flow,
                          while showering all around it would be the effect of its alter-ego,
                          the result of light-energy flow; a simple switch in the direction of
                          energy flow! Turn on the light!]
                          >

                          Valky:
                          Yes this is extremely interesting, Marianna. Hard to hold, :D but
                          intriguing. I never imagined the dementors as reversible, but as you
                          describe it, there seems reason to be wondering if they are. I am
                          such reminded of the movie the Dark Crystal in imagining this
                          scenario, seeing the dementors of as the skeski half of the eternal
                          being.

                          In terms of service and dominion, both the MOM and LV have done the
                          same with Dementors, they granted them positions of Service in MOM
                          Laws/LV's Dominon.

                          If it were possible, I wonder, would it be that Harry grants
                          Dominion to the Dementors in Service of the WW. (Some scenarios are
                          too nasty to contemplate. Like Harry allowing his soul to be sucked.)

                          Does it occur, mind, that the Dementors would be reversed, they
                          would be Kings of the WW, by the logic of the Service - Dominon
                          hypothesis, and the WW would be in service to them. However, if
                          they were radiating happiness and joy into the world then who could
                          argue that one would not want to serve this process ?

                          hmm passing the torch back to Marianna now.

                          Valky
                        • Marianna Marinda
                          ... intriguing. I never imagined the dementors as reversible, but as you describe it, there seems reason to be wondering if they are.
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 7, 2005
                            Valky:
                            >Yes this is extremely interesting, Marianna. Hard to hold, :D but
                            intriguing. I never imagined the dementors as reversible, but as you
                            describe it, there seems reason to be wondering if they are.<

                            Further developing the mirror-thought brings up the parallel of the
                            *Dementor* being the 'man with two faces'.

                            Also, I am noticing how the dementors effectively personify _matter_... You
                            know, the tangible elements of the universe... Matter is neither good nor
                            bad; it _blindly_ magnifies what power has hold over it, living by action &
                            reaction, and can be as much a bane as it can be a joy. In the hands of
                            darkness, it anchors the binds of our perceptions and enforces 'captivity
                            and death', having become a 'tool of the devil'. In the hands of light,
                            however it is the medium through which the Joy of God (via the liberated
                            one) is magnified... I imagine a single light (liberated being) to be
                            bright, but when its brightness is reflected and magnified over and over
                            through the medium of matter (as in a hall of mirrors, or within the facets
                            of a diamond [the diamond of the soul!]), the *same* light is increased in
                            intensity and spread abroad to great effect.

                            The only difference between them, though it is a *major* difference in
                            effect, is the direction of energy. (This would correlate with the changing
                            directions of spinning chakras also, as Hans has been exploring.) As well,
                            in the whole two-face scenario, alchemical symbolism might recognize the
                            dementor effectively transfigured from *lead* to *gold*. (The gold light of
                            the phoenix!) Old & rotted to eternally young, etc.

                            Valky:
                            >In terms of service and dominion, both the MOM and LV have done the
                            same with Dementors, they granted them positions of Service in MOM
                            Laws/LV's Dominon. <

                            >If it were possible, I wonder, would it be that Harry grants
                            Dominion to the Dementors in Service of the WW. (Some scenarios are
                            too nasty to contemplate. Like Harry allowing his soul to be sucked.)<

                            I don't think it would be a granting of dominion (it sounds too political
                            and restrictive of a scenario to me), so much as an unconditional granting
                            of *positive* power. Service by them would simply be a natural *result*,
                            because Joy was found in it, not by any form of compulsion. The
                            soul-sucking scenario with Harry would never happen, because that would not
                            be in the nature of a... 'to-mend-er'? (I think I'm getting a little
                            carried away here... :P)

                            Valky:
                            >Does it occur, mind, that the Dementors would be reversed, they
                            would be Kings of the WW, by the logic of the Service - Dominon
                            hypothesis, and the WW would be in service to them. However, if
                            they were radiating happiness and joy into the world then who could
                            argue that one would not want to serve this process ?<

                            Kings? I would not imagine that, because neither would any be compelled to
                            serve them (I still don't imagine them having eyes)... But desirable
                            apparitions? Definitely! Found anywhere, anytime. And people would likely
                            go out of their way in service of their cause in order to invite them
                            closer.

                            Anyway, such are my continuing thoughts. :)

                            Goodnight for now,
                            Marianna
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