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My immediate review of DH

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  • M.Clifford
    THERE WILL BE DEATHLY HALLOWS SPOILERS IN THE TEXT BELOW ............................. FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 22, 2007
      THERE WILL BE DEATHLY HALLOWS SPOILERS IN THE TEXT BELOW
      .............................

      FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED
      ....................................................

      AVOID SPOILERS AND ENJOY THE BOOK!!

      SPACER

      SPACER

      SPACER
      ...........................................................

      To start simply and succintly. I have finished reading the final book,
      in a mixture of tears, smiles, amazement, wonder and sincere joy.
      Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows is the triumphant and magnificent
      ending I hoped for, every last bit.

      I actually finished reading several hours ago, but have spent those
      reminiscing the story's heroes with delight and fondness, Brave
      Neville Longbottom, brilliant beyond measure Hermione, loyal and
      gallant Ron Weasley, and, it goes without saying, the boy himself
      Master of Death Harry Potter.

      The main thing I noticed about DH was a rather distinct lack of
      humour, I know other readers felt the books darkened dramatically
      enough a few episodes back, but I had never felt that they had really
      done so, DH, in that respect, is really really different. The
      heartpounding action in every chapter, to the last, made up the ground
      for the lost lighthearted folly, but I missed it noticeably for the
      first time.

      And then again, the final book lacked nothing whatsoever for me. It
      would take too many pages to recount all the great moments for me in
      DH, and it's equally hard to separate them or select a favourite
      moment. But if I did, there would be two.

      The first would be Harry in Bill and Fleurs garden, digging solemnly
      and determinedly to honour dear Dobby with a fitting memorial. it was
      such a sad moment for me and Harry didn't disappoint in empathising
      with me, I felt very close to the story in that moment.

      The second, Neville pulling the sword from Gryffindors Hat in a full
      body bind curse and in the agony of burning to death, to fulfill the
      small but vitally important mission Harry had given him. Tears came to
      my eyes just thinking about it. Hans was right that Neville was going
      to rock our worlds this weekend, The moment when I read that his
      batty, but magically cool, old gran had given him the sincerest
      compliment I was ecstatic for Neville, but that was merely a shadow of
      how much I enjoyed his triumphant destruction of the last Horcrux.

      There are too too many magnanimous moments, Harry won and won and won
      again, and I'm not talking about the many wand battles with Voldemort
      when I say that, but the really great victories, the true victories.
      freeing the muggleborns from the ministry trial, forming a bond with
      Kreacher, Hermione's brilliant Dumbledorish plan to escape the
      Lovegood's house saving Luna's father in the process, freeing the
      tortured dragon, and the list goes on. I loved every minute.

      Something I have to ask.. who suggested Snitch for the third knock
      orb? I can't remember who it was, but great call anyway. Perfect in fact.

      We'll be discussing this book for quite some time, I'm sure.

      Thankyou Jo for your wonderful books.

      love to all
      Valky
    • iris_ft
      ... I completely agree. It s a beautiful work. ... Ah, but we have much time by now to discuss the whole series. Harry s story has come to an
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 23, 2007


        --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" <valkyrievixen@...> wrote:
        >
        > THERE WILL BE DEATHLY HALLOWS SPOILERS IN THE TEXT BELOW
        > .............................
        >
        > FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED
        > ....................................................
        >
        > AVOID SPOILERS AND ENJOY THE BOOK!!
        >
        > SPACER
        >
        > SPACER
        >
        > SPACER
        > ...........................................................
        >
        > To start simply and succintly. I have finished reading the final book,
        > in a mixture of tears, smiles, amazement, wonder and sincere joy.
        > Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows is the triumphant and magnificent
        > ending I hoped for, every last bit.

        I completely agree. It's a beautiful work.


        <SNIP>

        <RE-SNIP>
        >
        > And then again, the final book lacked nothing whatsoever for me. It
        > would take too many pages to recount all the great moments for me in
        > DH, and it's equally hard to separate them or select a favourite
        > moment. But if I did, there would be two.

        Ah, but we have much time by now to discuss the whole series. Harry's story has come to an end, but ours, as literary exegesis,  goes one. Actually, it's the end of the story and the beginning of history. Shrilling!
        >
        > The first would be Harry in Bill and Fleurs garden, digging solemnly
        > and determinedly to honour dear Dobby with a fitting memorial. it was
        > such a sad moment for me and Harry didn't disappoint in empathising
        > with me, I felt very close to the story in that moment.

        I like this moment too, though it is very sad. That's really when Harry becomes adult for good, in my opinion, and when he signs up as the leader of the anti-Voldemort side. And he does it serving one of the most humble creatures in the Wizarding World. It's brilliant. It also announces what Harry is about to become, the Master of Death: he completely liberates Dobby from death giving him a yard.
        >
        > The second, Neville pulling the sword from Gryffindors Hat in a full
        > body bind curse and in the agony of burning to death, to fulfill the
        > small but vitally important mission Harry had given him. Tears came to
        > my eyes just thinking about it. Hans was right that Neville was going
        > to rock our worlds this weekend, The moment when I read that his
        > batty, but magically cool, old gran had given him the sincerest
        > compliment I was ecstatic for Neville, but that was merely a shadow of
        > how much I enjoyed his triumphant destruction of the last Horcrux.
        >

        I was glad too when he did it, not only because he's a nice character, but also because it proved that I wasn't wrong when I said that this last book would mirror the last Ordeal and the end of Philosopher's Stone. Neville destroyed the last Horcrux just the way he gave his House the ten decisive points at the end of the first novel. The whole final of Deathly Hallows echoes the final of Philosopher's Stone: Severus Snape turning out to be on the good side, Harry going willingly to his end, Harry nearly dying, Lily's determinent part in his son's victory, Dumbledore's explanations. It's amazing, when you realize that JK Rowling had the whole thing planned since the beginning. I admire her precision and her perseverance.


        > There are too too many magnanimous moments, Harry won and won and won
        > again, and I'm not talking about the many wand battles with Voldemort
        > when I say that, but the really great victories, the true victories.

        <SNIP>

        Harry's most touching moment, in my opinion, is this, when JK Rowling writes: "He felt armed in certainty, in his belief in the Hallows, as if the mere idea of possessing them was giving him protection, and he felt joyous as he turned back to the other two."

        That's a beautiful definition of faith, whichever faith it can be, and of its effects on our soul. When you have faith in something or in someone, you feel strong, quiet, and happy. It's one of the greatest treasures you can possess. You can even give it without loosing it. Harry wouldn't have become Master of Death, even with the three Hallows in his hands, if he hadn't had  faith previously, without knowing whether the Hallows were true or not. It reminds me of what is written in John's Gospel, 20.29 (sorry for the bad translation, I don't have any English version at hand, you'll have to correct me): "Merry are those who believe even if they didn't see". I can't see why some people would keep on saying the Harry Potter is evil, by now. It's a beautiful lesson in faith.


        <SNIP>
        > We'll be discussing this book for quite some time, I'm sure.

        I wish people will do it for centuries, just like for El Libro de Buen Amor.
        >
        > Thankyou Jo for your wonderful books.

        Oh yes, thank you, not only for your books, but also for sharing your human experience, and for listening to Harry the day he came to you.
        >
        > love to all
        > Valky
        >


        Amicalement,

        Iris

      • Tonks
        ... book, in a mixture of tears, smiles, amazement, wonder and sincere joy. ... magnificent ending I hoped for, every last bit. ... SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 23, 2007
          --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford"
          <valkyrievixen@...> wrote:
          >
          > THERE WILL BE DEATHLY HALLOWS SPOILERS IN THE TEXT BELOW
          > .............................
          >
          > FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED
          > ....................................................
          >
          > AVOID SPOILERS AND ENJOY THE BOOK!!
          >
          > SPACER
          >
          > SPACER
          >
          > SPACER
          > ...........................................................
          >
          > To start simply and succintly. I have finished reading the final
          book, > in a mixture of tears, smiles, amazement, wonder and sincere
          joy.
          > Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows is the triumphant and
          magnificent ending I hoped for, every last bit.
          >
          >
          SPOILER

          SPOILER

          SPOILER

          Tonks:

          Well, yes it is the ending I expected, but not as dramatic or in the
          same way that I envisioned. But I am in such a state of shock that I
          can not allow myself to feel anymore. I cried and cried over Dobby.
          And I think that J.K. Rowling, while a brilliant person is a sadistic
          murder. I don't know how all of those parents are going to comfort
          the children or how WB can make this into a movie for children.

          Rowling has done a good job of showing the evil of war. Too good. She
          killed me, and my husband and left our son an orphan like Harry. That
          was just too, too much. I think that I hate that woman, at least for
          now. I am sure that we were the two that she had not planned to
          MURDER from the beginning. And I thing that it was Hagrid that she
          spared. I am grateful for that. And I am glad that Hogwarts still
          exist. I was very proud of Neville long before the last battle...
          That he was one of the leaders of the DA and the lone one in the end.
          And the centars, Kreacher, yes... it just all brings tears to my
          eyes. I am sitting here at work with a Snape tee shirt on. The
          bravest man that Harry ever knew. I had expected his end to be more
          dramatic and in some heroric attempt to save Harry.

          Tonks_op
          (to shocked and depress to speak)
        • iris_ft
          ... At least, people won t criticize JK Rowling for being too soppy on that point. I ve lurked this afternoon on another message board and most members were
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 23, 2007


            --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford"
            > valkyrievixen@ wrote:
            > >
            > > THERE WILL BE DEATHLY HALLOWS SPOILERS IN THE TEXT BELOW
            > > .............................
            > >
            > > FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED
            > > ....................................................
            > >
            > > AVOID SPOILERS AND ENJOY THE BOOK!!
            > >
            > > SPACER
            > >
            > > SPACER
            > >
            > > SPACER
            > > ...........................................................
            > >
            > > To start simply and succintly. I have finished reading the final
            > book, > in a mixture of tears, smiles, amazement, wonder and sincere
            > joy.
            > > Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows is the triumphant and
            > magnificent ending I hoped for, every last bit.
            > >
            > >
            > SPOILER
            >
            > SPOILER
            >
            > SPOILER
            >
            > Tonks:
            >
            > Well, yes it is the ending I expected, but not as dramatic or in the
            > same way that I envisioned. But I am in such a state of shock that I
            > can not allow myself to feel anymore. I cried and cried over Dobby.
            > And I think that J.K. Rowling, while a brilliant person is a sadistic
            > murder. I don't know how all of those parents are going to comfort
            > the children or how WB can make this into a movie for children.

            At least, people won't criticize JK Rowling for being too soppy on that point. I've lurked this afternoon on another message board and most members were writing it was a decieving book, and that it was too easy, and too kind. Well, I also had the feeling they were furious because it doesn't fit their so well elaborated  theories... As for good little Dobby, unfortunately he had to die, because he was one of the weakest (socially, I mean) and generous characters in the series. JK Rowling needed him to die, and to die in a cruel way: it is what makes Harry definitely adult, what makes him become the leader of the good side. Before that tragic episode, Harry didn't know exactly what to do and where to go. In a way, Dobby's death freed him from his last inhibitions, and made him start behaving like a war leader. Sad, but necessary in order to make Harry finally do wha the had to do. I'm not sure another character's death would have had the same effect. Dobby was connected to Harry's own weakness (when he was alone and helpless at te Dursleys), and he was a symbol of unconditional love and freedom. You couldn't find a more touching victim, among all the characters. 
            >
            > Rowling has done a good job of showing the evil of war. Too good. She
            > killed me, and my husband and left our son an orphan like Harry. That
            > was just too, too much. I think that I hate that woman, at least for
            > now. I am sure that we were the two that she had not planned to
            > MURDER from the beginning.

            Luckily, she only killed a character of hers, not you, not your relatives. It happened between the pages of a book, not in real life. Shall we call her a murderer for that? Do we hate Puccini for making Butterfly and Liu and Mimi die by the end of his operas? Do we blame Shakespeare for making so many characters die? Not sure... We cry, but we accept, beause that's the way it was written. Won't we give JK rowling the same credit?

            And I thing that it was Hagrid that she
            > spared. I am grateful for that.

            And so am I, though I thought, like many of us, that good Hagrid was going to die, becuase of his connection to the Rubedo phase. It pleased me to see him alive, but it also puzzled me. Now I would bet JK Rowling decided to spare him because, precisely, he was connected to the Rubedo Phase, and because nearly everyone in the Potter fandom was expecting him to die. sparing him, killing Dobby, and Fred,and Tonks, and Lupin, she sent us a message: this is her story, these are her characters. Though we love them, though we give our version of the story, of the characters (through analyze, through fanfiction, movies), they don't belong to us. And we must accept that, because the contrary would be unfair. For the first time in the history of literature, a series of books has been written with the public almost reading over the author's shoulder while she was still at work. No author before JK Rowling had to face that kind of challenge. Arthur Conan Doyle had to face the pubic's resentment when he made Sherlock Holmes die, but he was safe behind his editor's window; he didn't have to face the cameras, and to deal with a worldwide expectation racing the Internet. We can't blame her for making us understand that, though we sometime consider Harry Potter is our business,  she is the author, not us.

            And I am glad that Hogwarts still
            > exist. I was very proud of Neville long before the last battle...

            > That he was one of the leaders of the DA and the lone one in the end.

            Hogwarts will always be Hogwarts. And concerning Neville, I gave my two knuts in my previous post.


            > And the centars, Kreacher, yes... it just all brings tears to my
            > eyes.

            I love Kreacher's story. I hope one day we'll know what happened with the Wizarding world after Harry's victory. JK Rowling doens't tell us. I say above that she is the author, but she leaves a door open for our imagination. One thing we can guess is that Harry didn't become a "Wizarding Kwizatz Haderach", or the new Minister for Magic. And it's a good thing.

            I am sitting here at work with a Snape tee shirt on. The
            > bravest man that Harry ever knew. I had expected his end to be more
            > dramatic and in some heroric attempt to save Harry.

            Ah yes, Severus Snape, our new celebrity. The best written character in the series, besides Harry. And a great tragic figure, like Hamlet, like Lorenzaccio. And like Judas, taken from an heterodox perspective.
            >
            > Tonks_op
            > (to shocked and depress to speak)

            I felt shocked and depressed after being alone with my grandfather while he was facing death. I felt shocked and depressed when one of my students died after fighting a blood cancer. I don't know if it would be fair if I let myself feel shocked and depressed because of  fictional characters. Sad, moved, every time I read their woes, oh yes; it's all so well written. But it's a story, after all. I will always be grateful to life for making me find the Harry Potter books. They are helpful, because their author put between their pages her human experience, and because this experience roots in suffering. It's a precious, generous gift, and it's true alchemy, because JK Rowling managed to turn her own suffering and inner pain into a warm, loving companion. The best I can give her in return is a fair analyze of her work. But I can't give it what I give a real person... I hope this group won't blame me for not crying.

            Amicalement,

            Iris


            >

          • littleleahstill
            ... the ... I ... Dobby. ... sadistic ... Leah: It s not just the evil of war is it? It s the evil of evil, vile impulses allowed to triumph. The
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 24, 2007
              --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op@...>
              wrote:
              > > THERE WILL BE DEATHLY HALLOWS SPOILERS IN THE TEXT BELOW
              > > .............................
              > >
              > > FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED
              > > ....................................................
              > >
              > > AVOID SPOILERS AND ENJOY THE BOOK!!
              > > SPOILER
              >
              > SPOILER
              >
              > SPOILER
              > Well, yes it is the ending I expected, but not as dramatic or in
              the
              > same way that I envisioned. But I am in such a state of shock that
              I
              > can not allow myself to feel anymore. I cried and cried over
              Dobby.
              > And I think that J.K. Rowling, while a brilliant person is a
              sadistic
              > murder. I don't know how all of those parents are going to comfort
              > the children or how WB can make this into a movie for children.
              >
              > Rowling has done a good job of showing the evil of war. Too good.

              Leah:
              It's not just the evil of war is it? It's the evil of evil, vile
              impulses allowed to triumph.

              'The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
              The ceremony of innocence is drowned; '

              You feel shocked and frozen, I'm sorry. Reading DH actually had the
              opposite effect on me; I had felt a bit frozen about HP, hadn't
              posted for a while, and reading this was a very moving experience.
              I wasn't moved so much by Dobby's death as Harry's burial of the
              house-elf. I think it was Iris who posted that this was when Harry
              became a man. I agree; before, Harry had taken on the burden of
              being alone, the Chosen One, this was when he took on the burden of
              being an adult leader.

              As to children. Having fast-read DH, I'm now reading my way through
              the septology, and it is clear that each book is written for a
              slightly older audience, the audience who are growing with Harry.
              Having said that, I think of the Grimmness of many folk and fairy
              tales. I think small children have an instinctive feel for good and
              evil and, powerless as they are, an understanding of the arbitrary
              nature of evil- think of those remorseless killing machines, the
              Daleks, on Doctor Who.

              <She killed me, and my husband and left our son an orphan like
              <Harry. That was just too, too much. I think that I hate that
              <woman, at least for now. I am sure that we were the two that she
              <had not planned to MURDER from the beginning. And I thing that it
              <was Hagrid that she spared. I am grateful for that.

              Leah:
              Thanks to the writings of Hans and others on the symbolism
              in HP, I expected the deaths of Lupin and Tonks, the Grey King and
              his young wife. So, I would have expected their deaths to have been
              a part of the plotting for some time. And of course, the Black King
              died too. Did he have a queen? He loved Lily all his life and she
              was veiled in death. There was a recent post, by Alice, which I've
              only just read and I thought was very interesting:

              <In the scene in the Hogshead,there is a witch covered entirely in a
              <long, black veil. I had forgotten there was another veiled figure
              <before Madame Pince in Half-Blood Prince ...But this figure is
              <mentioned twice in that scene, and then again later on.
              <This "witch," of course, turns out to be Mundungus Fletcher in
              <disguise, but I did think it interesting ...

              Leah:
              Mundungus is a 'sneak thief', Snape has to act as a 'sneak' spy.
              Mundungus is on the side of the Order but his cowardice and greed
              allow the Dementor attack on Harry in OOTP and the death of MadEye
              in DH. Snape in DH appears on the side of Voldemort, but his
              bravery prepares the way for Harry's victory. I wonder if there is
              meant to be a link there? I'm afraid I can't remember if Mundungus
              dies. I'm sorry that the Irma Pince anagram didn't work out!

              I think perhaps it was Draco or Lucius who was spared. Hagrid I
              think had been spared by the time of HBP, when we met Rufus
              Scrimgeour. He was a lion (Gryffindor) like man, with a 'red' name,
              and in the end he died protecting Harry. I think that was the
              rubedo death. Not a huge death in terms of the story, but DH had to
              be about the end of the quest, not its penultimate phase.

              JKR said she wept writing this book and she wept when Sirius died.
              I don't imagine she enjoyed writing the deaths of Tonks and Lupin,
              but they are not murdered. They still live in the pages of this book
              and others. And Lupin was given the chance to confront his weakness
              and overcome it.

              < And I am glad that Hogwarts still exist. I was very proud of
              <Neville long before the last battle... That he was one of the
              <leaders of the DA and the lone one in the end. And the centars,
              <Kreacher, yes... it just all brings tears to my eyes. I am sitting
              <here at work with a Snape tee shirt on. The bravest man that Harry
              <ever knew. I had expected his end to be more dramatic and in some
              <heroric attempt to save Harry.

              Leah:
              I'm glad Hogwarts is still there. Neville and Luna were wonderful in
              this book; I was moved by Kreacher too. And my Snape was if not
              quite
              Dumbledore's, then Lily's man through and through. I breathed a
              sigh of relief when Neville and Luna were sent to do their
              punishment in the Forbidden Forest with Hagrid (a book 1 echo);
              Snape was not Voldemort's man. I had expected a more dramatic end
              for Snape too, it seemed a bit of an anti-climax on first reading.
              But having thought about it, I think it would have been wrong to let
              Snape die a wonderful hero's death. He was a wonderful character,
              one of the pivots of the whole series, a great tragic figure, brave
              and motivated by love, but deeply flawed. He had been a Death Eater
              and had been forced to endure the sufferings of others (eg the death
              of Cicely Burbage). His death paved the way for Harry's victory, a
              final deception of Voldemort, but I think it was somehow fitting
              that he died at the hands (or fangs) of evil, the serpent in her orb
              being the death of the Spinner. I was so moved when Neville drew
              the sword from the Hat ("only a true Gryffindor..."), and it seemed
              somehow symmetrical that Nagini killed Snape, but Neville ("idiot
              boy") killed Nagini.

              Thinking of Neville killing the snake reminded me of the depictions
              of St Michael vanquishing the devil in the form of a serpent or
              dragon. In Talmudic tradition, the name Michael means 'Who is like
              God?'. We have definite Christ/Harry symbolism in DH, when Harry
              gives himself up to death and then is brought back to life ( as also
              happens in 'The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe'.) Neville was like
              Harry-he was the other prophecy boy, become a warrior for
              Harry.



              > Tonks_op
              > (to shocked and depress to speak)

              Leah:
              I hope you feel better and re-read the book. I found it very moving
              and cathartic).

              One criticism- that epilogue! Agree with all Cath said. Apart from
              the 'Albus Severus' (Harry has given his son the initials ASP!), I
              found it all a bit twee and didn't answer the questions I wanted
              answered. Given that Harry had to die naturally for the Elder Wand
              to lose its power, I would have liked to see a peaceful death in old
              age for Harry, a bit like Aragorn in the appendix to LOTR, thinking
              back over his life.


              Leah
            • patrick uzzell
              Good point about the elder wand. Rowling left herself an opening for a future Harry Potter book. There was a glimpse in the Pensieve of a possible
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 24, 2007
                Good point about the elder wand.
                 
                Rowling left herself an opening for a future Harry Potter book. There was a glimpse in the Pensieve of a possible reincarnation of Voldemort (at least I saw it that way), and Harry will have to die a natural death for the wand to lose its power.
                 
                Stay tuned. I personally believe that Rowling will go stir crazy if she cannot continue to write about Harry Potter. At least, I hope so.
                 


                littleleahstill <leahstill@...> wrote:
                --- In harrypotterforseeke rs@yahoogroups. com, "Tonks" <tonks_op@.. .>
                wrote:
                > > THERE WILL BE DEATHLY HALLOWS SPOILERS IN THE TEXT BELOW
                > > ............ ......... ........
                > >
                > > FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED
                > > ............ ......... ......... ......... ......... ....
                > >
                > > AVOID SPOILERS AND ENJOY THE BOOK!!
                > > SPOILER
                >
                > SPOILER
                >
                > SPOILER
                > Well, yes it is the ending I expected, but not as dramatic or in
                the
                > same way that I envisioned. But I am in such a state of shock that
                I
                > can not allow myself to feel anymore. I cried and cried over
                Dobby.
                > And I think that J.K. Rowling, while a brilliant person is a
                sadistic
                > murder. I don't know how all of those parents are going to comfort
                > the children or how WB can make this into a movie for children.
                >
                > Rowling has done a good job of showing the evil of war. Too good.

                Leah:
                It's not just the evil of war is it? It's the evil of evil, vile
                impulses allowed to triumph.

                'The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
                The ceremony of innocence is drowned; '

                You feel shocked and frozen, I'm sorry. Reading DH actually had the
                opposite effect on me; I had felt a bit frozen about HP, hadn't
                posted for a while, and reading this was a very moving experience.
                I wasn't moved so much by Dobby's death as Harry's burial of the
                house-elf. I think it was Iris who posted that this was when Harry
                became a man. I agree; before, Harry had taken on the burden of
                being alone, the Chosen One, this was when he took on the burden of
                being an adult leader.

                As to children. Having fast-read DH, I'm now reading my way through
                the septology, and it is clear that each book is written for a
                slightly older audience, the audience who are growing with Harry.
                Having said that, I think of the Grimmness of many folk and fairy
                tales. I think small children have an instinctive feel for good and
                evil and, powerless as they are, an understanding of the arbitrary
                nature of evil- think of those remorseless killing machines, the
                Daleks, on Doctor Who.

                <She killed me, and my husband and left our son an orphan like
                <Harry. That was just too, too much. I think that I hate that
                <woman, at least for now. I am sure that we were the two that she
                <had not planned to MURDER from the beginning. And I thing that it
                <was Hagrid that she spared. I am grateful for that.

                Leah:
                Thanks to the writings of Hans and others on the symbolism
                in HP, I expected the deaths of Lupin and Tonks, the Grey King and
                his young wife. So, I would have expected their deaths to have been
                a part of the plotting for some time. And of course, the Black King
                died too. Did he have a queen? He loved Lily all his life and she
                was veiled in death. There was a recent post, by Alice, which I've
                only just read and I thought was very interesting:

                <In the scene in the Hogshead,there is a witch covered entirely in a
                <long, black veil. I had forgotten there was another veiled figure
                <before Madame Pince in Half-Blood Prince ...But this figure is
                <mentioned twice in that scene, and then again later on.
                <This "witch," of course, turns out to be Mundungus Fletcher in
                <disguise, but I did think it interesting ...

                Leah:
                Mundungus is a 'sneak thief', Snape has to act as a 'sneak' spy.
                Mundungus is on the side of the Order but his cowardice and greed
                allow the Dementor attack on Harry in OOTP and the death of MadEye
                in DH. Snape in DH appears on the side of Voldemort, but his
                bravery prepares the way for Harry's victory. I wonder if there is
                meant to be a link there? I'm afraid I can't remember if Mundungus
                dies. I'm sorry that the Irma Pince anagram didn't work out!

                I think perhaps it was Draco or Lucius who was spared. Hagrid I
                think had been spared by the time of HBP, when we met Rufus
                Scrimgeour. He was a lion (Gryffindor) like man, with a 'red' name,
                and in the end he died protecting Harry. I think that was the
                rubedo death. Not a huge death in terms of the story, but DH had to
                be about the end of the quest, not its penultimate phase.

                JKR said she wept writing this book and she wept when Sirius died.
                I don't imagine she enjoyed writing the deaths of Tonks and Lupin,
                but they are not murdered. They still live in the pages of this book
                and others. And Lupin was given the chance to confront his weakness
                and overcome it.

                < And I am glad that Hogwarts still exist. I was very proud of
                <Neville long before the last battle... That he was one of the
                <leaders of the DA and the lone one in the end. And the centars,
                <Kreacher, yes... it just all brings tears to my eyes. I am sitting
                <here at work with a Snape tee shirt on. The bravest man that Harry
                <ever knew. I had expected his end to be more dramatic and in some
                <heroric attempt to save Harry.

                Leah:
                I'm glad Hogwarts is still there. Neville and Luna were wonderful in
                this book; I was moved by Kreacher too. And my Snape was if not
                quite
                Dumbledore's, then Lily's man through and through. I breathed a
                sigh of relief when Neville and Luna were sent to do their
                punishment in the Forbidden Forest with Hagrid (a book 1 echo);
                Snape was not Voldemort's man. I had expected a more dramatic end
                for Snape too, it seemed a bit of an anti-climax on first reading.
                But having thought about it, I think it would have been wrong to let
                Snape die a wonderful hero's death. He was a wonderful character,
                one of the pivots of the whole series, a great tragic figure, brave
                and motivated by love, but deeply flawed. He had been a Death Eater
                and had been forced to endure the sufferings of others (eg the death
                of Cicely Burbage). His death paved the way for Harry's victory, a
                final deception of Voldemort, but I think it was somehow fitting
                that he died at the hands (or fangs) of evil, the serpent in her orb
                being the death of the Spinner. I was so moved when Neville drew
                the sword from the Hat ("only a true Gryffindor.. ."), and it seemed
                somehow symmetrical that Nagini killed Snape, but Neville ("idiot
                boy") killed Nagini.

                Thinking of Neville killing the snake reminded me of the depictions
                of St Michael vanquishing the devil in the form of a serpent or
                dragon. In Talmudic tradition, the name Michael means 'Who is like
                God?'. We have definite Christ/Harry symbolism in DH, when Harry
                gives himself up to death and then is brought back to life ( as also
                happens in 'The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe'.) Neville was like
                Harry-he was the other prophecy boy, become a warrior for
                Harry.

                > Tonks_op
                > (to shocked and depress to speak)

                Leah:
                I hope you feel better and re-read the book. I found it very moving
                and cathartic).

                One criticism- that epilogue! Agree with all Cath said. Apart from
                the 'Albus Severus' (Harry has given his son the initials ASP!), I
                found it all a bit twee and didn't answer the questions I wanted
                answered. Given that Harry had to die naturally for the Elder Wand
                to lose its power, I would have liked to see a peaceful death in old
                age for Harry, a bit like Aragorn in the appendix to LOTR, thinking
                back over his life.

                Leah



                Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

              • Bill
                ... wrote: S P O I L E R ... The rubedo death might have been Rufus, true, but there is another candidate, too: Fred. He not only had red
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 24, 2007
                  --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill"
                  <leahstill@...> wrote:

                  S
                  P
                  O
                  I
                  L
                  E
                  R

                  > --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op@>
                  > wrote:
                  > > > THERE WILL BE DEATHLY HALLOWS SPOILERS IN THE TEXT BELOW
                  > > > .............................
                  > > >
                  > > > FOREWARNED IS FOREARMED
                  > > > ....................................................
                  > > >
                  > > > AVOID SPOILERS AND ENJOY THE BOOK!!
                  > > > SPOILER
                  > >
                  > > SPOILER
                  > >
                  > > SPOILER

                  > I think perhaps it was Draco or Lucius who was spared. Hagrid I
                  > think had been spared by the time of HBP, when we met Rufus
                  > Scrimgeour. He was a lion (Gryffindor) like man, with a 'red' name,
                  > and in the end he died protecting Harry. I think that was the
                  > rubedo death. Not a huge death in terms of the story, but DH had
                  > to be about the end of the quest, not its penultimate phase.

                  The 'rubedo' death might have been Rufus, true, but there is another
                  candidate, too: Fred. He not only had red hair, but the word 'red'
                  was part of his name. Plus his death was more personally significant
                  to Harry. Could the rubido phase have been split between those two
                  deaths? Rufus surely needed to die for plot reasons, but if Rubeus
                  was the one given a reprieve, then somebody else connected to 'red',
                  whose death would have more of an emotional impact to Harry, might
                  have needed to die -- hence, the death of Fred.

                  Bill
                • alexander uzzell
                  patrick uzzell wrote: Good point about the elder wand. Rowling left herself an opening for a future Harry Potter book. There was a
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jul 24, 2007
                    patrick uzzell <puzzellus@...> wrote:
                    Good point about the elder wand.

                    Rowling left herself an opening for a future Harry Potter book. There was a glimpse in the Pensieve of a possible reincarnation of Voldemort (at least I saw it that way), and Harry will have to die a natural death for the wand to lose its power.


                    Alexander Uzzell:
                    In deathly hallows the resurection stone kinda resembles the boulder that they pushed aside at Christ's tomb. I know they are different sizes; I'm just pointing out a similarity.
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