Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Chapter 27 discussion: The Lightning-Struck Tower

Expand Messages
  • Valerie Yeary
    Apologies for the lateness of this; life happened. I won t go into further excuses or explanations but suffice it to say I m very sorry this took so long.
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 28, 2007
      Chapter 27 discussion: The Lightning-Struck Tower Apologies for the lateness of this; life happened.  I won't go into further excuses or explanations but suffice it to say I'm very sorry this took so long.  Without further ado, here's Chapter 27: The Lightning-Struck Tower.

      The Chapter opens as Harry has Apparated himself and Dumbledore back to Hogsmeade from the cave.  Dumbledore then collapses to the ground and tells Harry that when they get to the school he must have Professor Snape tend to him despite Harry's protests.  Just as Harry is prepared to leave Dumbledore to go for help, Madame Rosmerta appears in the street beside them to announce that the Dark Mark has been set in the sky above Hogwarts.  Dumbledore declares that they must return to the castle at once, and asks Rosmerta for some brooms, which Harry then summons from behind the bar.  Harry and Dumbledore then fly back to Hogwarts after Dumbledore has advised Rosmerta to contact the Ministry and Harry to put his Invisibility Cloak back on.  Dumbledore mutters under his breath as they fly, removing the wards that will prevent himself and Harry from entering the grounds on their brooms, and the two come to a landing at the top of the Astronomy Tower under the Dark Mark.

      Dumbledore then orders Harry to retrieve Snape and remain under his Cloak, but before Harry can go anywhere the door to the tower bursts open and admits Draco Malfoy.  Malfoy disarms Dumbledore as Dumbledore petrifies Harry, leaving Dumbledore defenseless and Harry unable to come to his aid.  Dumbledore and Draco then converse at length about Draco's actions and his mission.  Some notable quotes:

      "Draco, Draco, you are not a killer."

      "You don't know what I'm capable of," said Malfoy more forcefully, "You don't know what I've done!"

      "...Killing is not nearly as easy as the innocent believe...."

      "You care about me saying 'Mudblood' when I'm about to kill you?"
      "Yes, I do," said Dumbledore...

      "He cannot kill you if you are already dead.  Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine.  What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise.  Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempts to kill me - forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it.  Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother - it is what they would do themselves, after all.  Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban....When the time comes, we can protect him too.  Come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer...."
      Malfoy stared at Dumbledore.
      "But I got this far, didn't I?" he said slowly.  "They thought I'd die in the attempt, but I'm here...and you're in my power....I'm the one with the wand....You're at my mercy...."
      "No, Draco," said Dumbledore quietly. "It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now."

      After this exchange, the door at the top of the tower bursts open and admits Amycus and Alecto Carrow, Fenrir Greyback, and an unknown Death Eater with a "heavy, brutal-looking face."  They are all pleased to see that Draco has cornered Dumbledore and encourage Draco to finish the job.  Malfoy is unable, however, his wand hand shaking and then lowering as the others argue about doing it themselves.  At long last, the door bursts open again and out steps Snape.  Dumbledore quietly pleads with Snape.  Snape pushes Malfoy out of the way and lowers his wand to aim at Dumbledore.

      Snape gazed at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.
      "Severus...please...."
      Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore.
      "Avada Kedavra!"

      The curse hits Dumbledore in the chest and throws him up over the ramparts and out of sight.

      Questions:

      (1) Is Rosmerta's appearance truly a coincidence when they arrive in Hogsmeade, or is she there to spy on Dumbledore and point out the Dark Mark to him?  Do you think Rosmerta actually contacted the Ministry as Dumbledore requested?

      (2) What does Dumbledore's insitence on civility, including reprimanding Draco for using the term "Mudblood," say about his character?  He is also polite to the Death Eaters when they arrive to aid Draco, despite the fact that he must know he's very close to death.

      (3) Given that Draco appeared to be reluctant to kill Dumbledore, do you think that if the Death Eaters and Snape hadn't arrived on the scene Draco might have taken Dumbledore up on his offer?

      (4) Dumbledore seems quite confident that people can be hidden by the Order.  Who else have they hidden that others might think are dead?  Madame Bones or Emmeline Vance?  Fortescue?  Ollivander?  Anyone else?

      (5) I've recently read what remains of the Gospel of Judas, an old Gnostic text.  In it, Judas is revealved to be not a traitor, but the only one among Christ's disciples who understood that to finish his mission on Earth, Christ must be handed over to the Romans for crucifixion.  Christ makes Judas promise to be the one to do it because he's the only one Christ can trust with such a monumental, difficult task.  How does this shed light on the possibility that Snape is not a traitor, but acting on Dumbledore's orders to act for the overall greater good, the only one Dumbledore could trust to act when neccessary?

      Valerie




    • Jayne
      ... (2) What does Dumbledore s insistence on civility, including reprimanding Draco for using the term Mudblood, say about his character? He is also polite
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 29, 2007


        --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, "Valerie Yeary" <vmy@...> wrote:
        >
        (2) What does Dumbledore's insistence on civility, including reprimanding Draco for using the term "Mudblood," say about his character? He is also polite to the Death Eaters when they arrive to aid Draco, despite the fact that he must know he's very close to death.

        Jayne:

        I think that Dumbledore cares more about a person's soul than that very person sometimes cares about his own soul.  I think that speaking vilely about another person harms you more than it does the person that you are speaking about. 

        Dumbledore cares about all of his students, especially those who seem to be lost in some way.  Dumbledore, of course, doesn't like the term "Mudblood" at all, but he especially doesn't want to hear one of his students using that term.  Perhaps he feels that using such a vile term is one way that a person can compromise his soul and he doesn't want to see one of his students starting down that road.

        As far as the Death Eaters, in a way, how can you not feel sorry for them?  They're so lost, and they don't even know it.  Dumbledore probably can't help but to feel compassion for them.

         

         

      • Tonks
        Pardon me for not answering the questions for this chapter discussion. This is one of my favorite chapters in the book. I see some parts differently and they
        Message 3 of 11 , May 3, 2007
          Pardon me for not answering the questions for this chapter
          discussion. This is one of my favorite chapters in the book. I see
          some parts differently and they have great meaning for me that I
          would like to share. This is from a Christian POV, which I think is
          what Rowling is after here, in a subliminal manner.

          To me DD on the tower is Christ at Golgotha. This is the image that
          she paints when she says that for a moment he seemed to hang
          suspended under the skull. Rowling does not say the dark mark, she
          does not mention the snake, she says Skull, “under the shining
          skull”. This is the “place of the skull” which is Golgotha, the
          place that Jesus was killed. If you read it in this way, you can
          see DD with his arms outstretched, just as Jesus was on the cross.
          DD sacrificed himself to save Draco, Harry, and Snape. Remember
          that there is some ancient magic that comes into play here. Of
          course, like Jesus, DD could have summoned an army of house elves,
          if he had wanted. DD was a powerful wizard. He died because he did
          not attempt to fight. Had he wanted to live, he would have.

          Here is something that I wrote to show the similarities between the
          Bible accounts of Jesus' last days and hours and those of
          Dumbledore. I have interspersed parts of the HP book with parts of
          the bible, to give the whole story.

          The Lightning Struck Tower

          “It is in the cards” she says,
          But he does not hear her,
          “Coming nearer and nearer
          Calamity, disaster” she says,
          But he does not hear.

          Princes plot against the Lord and his anointed. (Psalm 2)
          See how the wicked prowl on every side. (Psalm 12)

          “Coming nearer and nearer,
          Calamity, disaster” she says,
          But he does not hear.

          First one last golden day of peace.
          At sunset, he stands at the window, a black traveling cloak in his
          arms.

          Let this cup past from me,
          But your will, not mine be done. (Jesus in the garden.)

          “It is in the cards” she says,
          “Coming nearer, and nearer”.

          The Master speaks to his disciple:
          If I tell you to hide will you do so?
          Yes
          If I tell you to flee, will you obey?
          Yes
          If I tell you to leave me and save yourself, will you do as I tell you?
          Yes, sir.

          When the goblet was full to the brim, he lifted it to his mouth.

          I thirst. (Jesus on the cross)

          Nothing was stirring and all was still,
          The darkness complete except for the blazing green skull with a serpent tongue,
          Glowing in the night sky, above the highest tower.

          My life is on the brink of the grave,
          I am reckoned as one in the tombs,
          I have reached the end of my strength. (Psalm 88)

          My captor cries: “You are at my mercy!”
          He does not understand. It is my mercy that matters now”.

          Many bulls have surrounded me,
          Fierce bulls of Bashan close me in.
          Against me they open wide their jaws,
          Like lions, rending and roaring. (Psalm 22 -read on Good Friday)

          My foes encircle me with deadly intent.
          Their hearts tight shut, their mouths speak proudly.
          They advance against me, and now they surround me.
          Their eyes are watching to strike me to the ground. (Psalm 17)

          What you are going to do, do quickly.

          “Severus, please.”

          It is finished. (Jesus on the cross)

          For a split second, He seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining skull.

          And they called the place Golgotha. (Mark 15:22)

          -----------------------
          Tonks_op
        • Hans Andréa
          Tonks wrote: To me DD on the tower is Christ at Golgotha. This is the image that she paints when she says that for a moment he seemed to
          Message 4 of 11 , May 3, 2007
            Tonks <tonks_op@...> wrote:
            To me DD on the tower is Christ at Golgotha. This is the image that she paints when she says that for a moment he seemed to hang suspended under the skull. Rowling does not say the dark mark, she does not mention the snake, she says Skull, “under the shining
            skull”. This is the “place of the skull” which is Golgotha, the place that Jesus was killed.
             
            Hans:
            Thanks for that really beautiful post, Tonks. You nearly had me in tears.
             
            How wonderful that you've pointed out the "place of the skull". You're absolutely right! Why didn't I see that? I don't know if you saw my post about the previous chapter, where I said that drinking the 12 cups was a symbol for dying for the sins of the world.
             
            Also Dumbledore came from a cave and died on this tower. Some legends say that Jesus was born in a cave, so this is truly the road from Bethlehem to Golgotha.
             
            You may be interested to know that "the place of the skull" in Rosicrucian interpretation is the head of the alchemist. As you know I've said that the Alchemical Wedding takes place in the pineal gland, "in the place of the skull". Bill and Fleur are the couple that symbolise the crown chakra that opens up just above the skull when the Alchemical Wedding takes place.
             
            Tonks, I really loved your juxtapositioning of Bible passages and Harry Potter. This is very beautiful indeed and is a brilliant way to make a point. I love the "I thirst" reference, which is another one I missed.
             
            Thanks for coming back out of the woodwork, Tonksy!
             
            Your friend and admirer,
            Hans


            "I've never wanted to be a witch, but an alchemist, now that's a different matter. To invent this wizard world, I've learned a ridiculous amount about alchemy. Perhaps much of it I'll never use in the books, but I have to know in detail what magic can and cannot do in order to set the parameters and establish the stories' internal logic." JK Rowling


            Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now.
          • chris
            Tonks said: This is one of my favorite chapters in the book. some parts have great meaning for me that I would like to share. This is from a
            Message 5 of 11 , May 3, 2007
              Tonks said:
              >This is one of my favorite chapters in the book.<snip> some parts <snip> have great meaning for me that I
              would like to share. This is from a Christian POV, which I think is
              what Rowling is after here, in a subliminal manner.

              To me DD on the tower is Christ at Golgotha. This is the image that
              she paints when she says that for a moment he seemed to hang
              suspended under the skull. Rowling does not say the dark mark, she
              does not mention the snake, she says Skull, “under the shining
              skull”. This is the “place of the skull” which is Golgotha, the
              place that Jesus was killed. If you read it in this way, you can
              see DD with his arms outstretched, just as Jesus was on the cross.
              DD sacrificed himself to save Draco, Harry, and Snape. Remember
              that there is some ancient magic that comes into play here. Of
              course, like Jesus, DD could have summoned an army of house elves,
              if he had wanted. DD was a powerful wizard. He died because he did
              not attempt to fight. Had he wanted to live, he would have.<

              Hans said:
              >
              How wonderful that you've pointed out the "place of the skull". You're absolutely right! Why didn't I see that? I don't know if you saw my post about the previous chapter, where I said that drinking the 12 cups was a symbol for dying for the sins of the world.

              >snip<

              You may be interested to know that "the place of the skull" in Rosicrucian interpretation is the head of the alchemist.
              <

              Chris:

              The Astronomy Tower symbolises the backbone here. Dumbledore is at the top of it, in the place of the skull, as symbolised by the Dark Mark.

              The symbolism is the same as that for the other tower, where Dumbledore's office is also situated at the top.

              In both towers, you reach the highest point via a spiral staircase.

              It's the same tower that is depicted in The Alchemical Wedding, where Christian Rosycross also meets the old man at the top of the spiral staircase.

              Hans has just posted about this old man, that Dumbledore represents in the HP books.

              The backbone symbol is often depicted as a vertical pole with two snakes twined around it, representing the spinal cord and the two strands of the sympathetic nervous system. It is through this set of three connectors that our physical body is directed by our mind. This is how our will is used to shape the material world around us.

              The place at the top of the tower, that Dumbledore inhabits, is symbolic of mind, and in it is the pineal gland, which is symbolised in the Harry Potter books by Bill Weasley. Bill, we discover in the next chapter, was originally thought to have been killed in this scene, but later turns out to have been badly injured instead, and the (alchemical) wedding is going to take place after all.

              At the top of this tower, in this scene, we also have Harry and Draco., the new and the old consciousness fire, descibed as fiery serpents in alchemical literature - see Hans' post on Draco, post number 375.

              In Hans' recent post on Dumbledore he has described the aim of the occultist:

              Hans:
              >Finally I want to describe the difference between the occult
              development of the pineal gland, and the liberating one.

              Occultists try to drive the serpent of the kundalini, situated in thesacral plexus, upwards, along the spinal cord, to the pineal gland. This is where people often get confused between occultism and liberating alchemy. In both occultism and alchemy a force rises up the spine and enters the pineal gland and the crown chakra. In both cases there is a tremendous change in the person. But in occultism it is the basilisk that rises upwards and enters the Temple of the Holy Spirit to defile it with its evil eyes and poisonous fangs. It's called the Light-birth of Lucifer. In Alchemy it is the New, Pure and Divine Soul, personified in Harry, that rises up to the Temple where
              it will celebrate the wedding with the Spirit. This is called the Light-birth of Christ.

              The occultist will earn great powers and stop the wheel of reincarnation for a long period. He will become one of the great rulers of the Fallen Universe. He will become a death eater and serve
              Lucifer/Voldemort.
              <

              Chris:
              I think this scene is an attempt to describe this event. In this scene, Draco is the old serpent fire climbing the backbone to attack the threat of liberation, of annihilation for the self. Harry represents the other serpent, the Divine serpent fire.

              Voldemort represents the self here. Voldemort's purpose is to achieve what he considers to be 'eternal' life, the occult light-birth. The only power that stands between him and this goal is Harry, the New Soul, the new serpent-fire, because he knows there is a prophecy that Harry will kill him, thus achieving the liberating Divine light-birth instead.

              Voldemort tried to defeat this threat by killing Harry at the end of Book 5, but the power of God that Dumbledore represents intervened to protect Harry. So he has sent Draco to clear his path to Harry. Voldemort has sent the serpent Draco up the tower that is the backbone to reach the place of the skull to kill Dumbledore, to achieve the occult light-birth instead of Harry's aim of the liberating light-birth.

              As Hans explained in his last post about Dumbledore, he is the Ancient of Days, the old man in the tower of the Alchemical Wedding, who helps the seeker who has climbed the spiral staircase to the very top, to achieve the liberating lght-birth.

              Hans said:
              >This is what Jan van Rijckenborgh says of the Very Ancient One: 'He is the Supreme Watchman, the original spirit-man, the Holy Spirit, the divine Son. He is the great, fundamental power of the spirit expressing itself in a twofold ray; he is the divine trinity in abstract, which must become concrete in the candidate. As Old Atlas, he takes form in the pineal centre. One could compare this spirit-man or divine Son with a second microcosm, in which a high, superb life
              radiates, only able to express itself in the solar macrocosm.' (1)
              <

              Chris:
              Dumledore is the watchman on the lookout tower here, looking after the welfare of Hogwarts, his responsibility.

              I've been thinking about Hans' post 316 in this connection, where he wondered why Jo had the death of the Basilisk in Book 2 instead of at the end of the seeker's journey. The story of the duary and the Chamber of Secrets is another depiction of the attempt by the occultist to achieve what, in his mistaken view, passes for liberation. I think the confusion arises because Jo is using so many symbols for the snake.

              There are two events in the path of liberation where the snakes feature heavily. The first one is quite early on, where the seeker has to leave his past behind. From then on, he goes forward
              without being constantly affected by it. But it is not dead at this point, its just that its power has temporarily been reduced. It is much later on the path where the past is actually killed off completely, so that it can no longer affect the seeker.

              In book 2, the Basilisk is killed, but it turns out to be only one of six horcruxes that Voldemort has made to sustain his existence. Voldemort's power is apparently broken at the end of Book 1, but later we find that he has been hiding out in Albania, waiting to make a comeback, which he spends the rest of the seven books working his way up to. Harry meets the inferi in the cave. They behave as if they're dead (past and gone, history), but they still have the power to come back and destroy him.

              In the Nuctemeron of Apollonius of Tyana, the serpents entwine the serpent staff and the lightning becomes harmonious around about the same time that Cerberus opens its triple muzzle, in the first few of the twelve hours of the Nuctemeron's liberating process. This represents the same event, the past of the seeker being lulled into a temporary dormancy.

              Jo says she changed events around between Book 2 and Book 6, mentioning the story of the Half-Blood Prince. I think perhaps she switched the story of the killing of the Basilisk from its original intended place at the end of Book 6 and replaced it with the much milder-looking ascent of Draco up the Astronomy Tower.

              The death of the past of the seeker will happen in Book 7, where Jo now has the symbols of Snape, Lupin, Draco and Nagini, all representing aspects of the seeker's unholy past, to deal with.


              I don't think Dumbledore's death is going to save quite all of them. He made the sacrifice to save Harry, and I think Draco is probably saved at the same time. To save the wizarding and muggle world from Voldemort was what he set out to do in the first place, that's why he set the events in train that led to a the birth of the baby who would one day grow up to defeat Voldemort. But until Harry defeats Voldemort, Dumbledore's sacrifice doesn't achieve his aim.

              Jesus dies so that Christ is liberated, and by his sacrificial action, that liberation then becomes available to all men. Dumbledore dies so that Harry is liberated, and by Harry's action Draco and the rest of the wizarding and muggle world can be saved too.

              But Snape's sacrifice is just as much a part of the process of saving the people as Dumbledore's is. Just as Judas'. sacrifice was necessary if Jesus' sacrifice was to be effective. The past evil deeds of the seeker have to die as well as the past good deeds of the seeker do, before the people can be saved., before liberation can be achieved. The way Jo wrote it, Snape saved Draco, didn't he? Apparently so, at least.

              One of the most exciting things about waiting for Book 7 is seeing whether Jo has made Snape, her Judas, a hero or a villain. I would love to know the date when she decided which he was going to be, to compare it with the date of publication of 'The Gospel of Judas'.


              Tonks:
              >
              My captor cries: “You are at my mercy!”
              He does not understand. It is my mercy that matters now.<

              Chris:
              That's exciting! Is that in the Bible? Where is that from? Is it one of the Psalms?

              Tonks:
              >
              Many bulls have surrounded me,
              Fierce bulls of Bashan close me in.
              Against me they open wide their jaws,
              Like lions, rending and roaring. (Psalm 22 -read on Good Friday)
              <

              Chris:
              "My hands and feet have shrivelled" Great find!


              Chris

              .

              Let your email find you with BlackBerry from Vodafone
            • chris
              You re in my power ... I m the one with the wand ... You re at my mercy ... No, Draco, said Dumbledore quietly. It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters
              Message 6 of 11 , May 3, 2007
                'You're in my power ... I'm the one with the wand ... You're at my mercy ...'
                'No, Draco,' said Dumbledore quietly. It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now.'

                Malfoy sees himself as caught in a cleft stick by Voldemort. " 'I haven't got any options!' said Malfoy. 'I've got to do it! He'll kill me! He'll kill my whole family!' "

                Dumbledore depicts himself to Draco as offering mercy.

                Each paints a picture of a scenario. Neither scenario is real, in the sense of being absolute reality, they are just two points of view. If you gave somebody an outline of an event as a subject and asked them to film the event, each person would come up with a different perspective, and some of them would come up with several different alternatives.

                Draco thinks there is only one possible film of the event that could be made. Dumbledore knows there are many, he is the one who says 'Let us discuss your options, Draco.' Where Draco sees one option only, Dumbledore sees many.

                But Dumbledore paints a picture of one option only. Dumbledore selects the most suitable film to project, for his purposes.

                What is happening here is two images of the same reality, and two minds projecting them. It is a battle scene, just as it would be if we had two wizards with wands, fighting. Each of them is striving to overcome the other one's image with his image. Just as in the battle scene in the graveyard between Voldemort and Harry, two wizards are locked in combat, and straining to the utmost of their ability to overcome the other wizard's will with their will. Here, they are each trying to force their image onto the other one's mind.


                When people think of magic, they generally think of physical objects being made to behave in unusual ways by the use of someone's will, and they look on it as a child's game.

                This is because people look outwards at the external world, and think that's where everything happens. This is like trying to understand what a film is by focussing on the projected pictures instead of on the projector. People look at the effects instead of facing in the other direction and looking at the cause, which lies within the mind.

                The interesting thing I'm trying to point out in this scene is not Dumbledore's idea or Draco's idea and which one is right. Both of them or neither of them are right, they're just perspectives, snapshots of a moment in time, two alternative films being projected simultaneously by two different minds.

                The interesting thing is the battle between the two ideas.

                Most of our lives are just pitched battles between our ideas. Understanding that is the first step on the path to changing ourselves.

                Look at how Draco's life would suddenly change if he accepted Dumbledore's picture. Look how Dumbledore's life would change (well, if he had one left, but let's put that aside for the moment for the purposes of understanding what is going on here :-) ) if he accepted Draco's picture. Look at how either of their lives would change if we were a fanfic writer and wrote them a different scenario.

                Look at how your life would change if you could switch off the film you're projecting at the moment, and switch another one on instead.

                There are two wizards battling here, with true magic, no longer children's play-magic. One of them does not understand what is happening. Draco thinks that all he has to do is point his wand and utter a spell. Dumbledore, on the other hand, knows exactly what is happening, and he is teaching both Draco and Harry true magic here. And he doesn't need a stick in his hand to do it. He never did, in any of the HP books. The wand is just a tool, to help wizards learn to focus their will.

                If we've learned alongside the kids growing up at Hogwarts, we should be able to recognise wandless magic too.


                Chris

                Let your email find you with BlackBerry from Vodafone
              • littleleahstill
                ... in Hogsmeade, or is she there to spy on Dumbledore and point out the Dark Mark to him? Do you think Rosmerta actually contacted the Ministry as Dumbledore
                Message 7 of 11 , May 7, 2007
                  --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, "Valerie Yeary"
                  <vmy@...> wrote:
                  >

                  > (1) Is Rosmerta's appearance truly a coincidence when they arrive
                  in Hogsmeade, or is she there to spy on Dumbledore and point out the
                  Dark Mark to him? Do you think Rosmerta actually contacted the
                  Ministry as Dumbledore requested?

                  Leah:

                  Thank you very much, Valerie. I tend to think that her appearance is
                  not a coincidence. DD needs to be brought to the Tower. His plan is
                  to remain in Hogsmeade while Harry fetches Snape. It is Rosmerta
                  who makes sure they see the Dark Mark. Just a thought here: did
                  Snape know what he might have to do that night(see Judas question
                  below)? He is meant to be sleeping but is dressed when he rushes to
                  the Tower. If Snape had become aware of the arrival of the DEs he
                  could not show himself, (whether he was VM's or DD's man), and
                  thereby have to reveal his true allegiance. He had to wait for DD's
                  return. Was he expecting Harry to rush through his door instead of
                  Flitwick and did he stun immediately because he was instructed to
                  keep Harry out of danger in such an eventuality? (Or he was keeping
                  Luna and Hermione out of danger, or he is LV's man). As to
                  contacting the Ministry, no, I don't think Rosmerta did this. It's
                  not until the hospital wing that McGonagall reports Slughorn as
                  saying the Ministry has been informed. It's not clear who did the
                  informing, but had it been Rosmerta, my feeling is that they would
                  have arrived sooner.


                  < (2) What does Dumbledore's insitence on civility, including
                  <eprimanding Draco for using the term "Mudblood," say about his
                  <character? He is also polite to the Death Eaters when they arrive
                  <to aid Draco, despite the fact that he must know he's very close to
                  <death.

                  Leah:
                  Jesus said that the law of Moses forbade killing another, but that
                  anyone who was angry with his brother or called him `fool' was in
                  danger of hellfire. To kill another person is to totally disregard
                  their humanity, to treat them as an object for disposal, and to
                  forbid that is to follow the letter of the law. The spirit behind
                  the law is not to treat people as objects, just dismissing them out
                  of anger or idly calling them fool is to do that; a bit like `judge
                  not that ye be not judged'. (I've got a long way to go on all of
                  this, personally). So I think Dumbledore's civility is part of his
                  acknowledgement of his enemies as people, his compassion for them.
                  That's why he reprimands Draco for not seeing Hermione as the person
                  she is, but as a type. I don't think this is in anyway a weakness
                  in Dumbledore. When Harry does not bother to retrieve Slughorn's
                  memory, Dumbledore does not lose his temper, he is courteous to
                  Harry, but Harry certainly knows he did wrong- rather like
                  Dumbledore's comments to Draco on bringing Greyback into the
                  school.


                  < (3) Given that Draco appeared to be reluctant to kill Dumbledore,
                  <do you think that if the Death Eaters and Snape hadn't arrived on
                  <the scene Draco might have taken Dumbledore up on his offer?


                  Leah:
                  I think that is quite possible, yes. I don't believe Draco would
                  have gone ahead with the killing of Dumbledore, certainly.

                  < (4) Dumbledore seems quite confident that people can be hidden by
                  <the Order. Who else have they hidden that others might think
                  are ,dead? Madame Bones or Emmeline Vance? Fortescue?
                  <Ollivander? Anyone else?

                  Leah:
                  I think Amelia Bones is dead. Her apparently violent death was
                  reported in Muggle papers and the Muggle police were involved, so I
                  don't think it's possible that this was a faked death. The same
                  indeed goes for Emmeline Vance, though I have seen theories that
                  this is a faked death, mainly because Snape takes responsibility
                  for engineering it. There seems to be no reason for the taking of
                  Fortescue or for the faking of his death. Perhaps it is his
                  knowledge of history that is valuable. However, all we know about
                  Fortescue and Ollivander is that they have disappeared; they may be
                  in hiding, but since their deaths have not been reported, it seems
                  unlikely that they would be faked- a faked death would be announced,
                  I think. One possibility is of course, Regulus aka RAB, or Caradoc
                  Dearborn, whose body was never found. Some people think Madam Pince
                  may be Snape's mother, but there's no suggestion her death has been
                  faked, just that she's in hiding. The person I do wonder about is
                  Dorcas Meadows. Sirius says that Voldemort killed this otherwise
                  unknown woman `personally'. I wondered if her death was used to
                  make the Ravenclaw horcrux, but it is also possible that this death
                  was faked, and attributed to Voldemort rather than to an individual
                  DE who would be able to refute the story. My reason is that Dorcas
                  was an early Christian woman who was raised from the dead by St
                  Peter, and that this would therefore be a suitable name for someone
                  who may return from the grave. (She made clothes for poor widows,
                  another spinning connection).


                  < (5) I've recently read what remains of the Gospel of Judas, an old
                  <Gnostic text. In it, Judas is revealved to be not a traitor, but
                  <the only one among Christ's disciples who understood that to finish
                  <his mission on Earth, Christ must be handed over to the Romans for
                  <crucifixion. Christ makes Judas promise to be the one to do it
                  <because he's the only one Christ can trust with such a monumental,
                  <difficult task. How does this shed light on the possibility that
                  <Snape is not a traitor, but acting on Dumbledore's orders to act
                  <for the overall greater good, the only one Dumbledore could trust
                  <to act when neccessary?

                  Leah:
                  It's a very interesting conundrum. There is a view that if Jesus
                  was destined to die to save man, then Judas was also destined to
                  betray Him. Or you could say that although death was Jesus'
                  ultimate mission, it was Judas' choice to bring it about and he did
                  not necessarily have to be the one responsible. I don't rest easy
                  with the idea that Snape and DD had a pre-arranged plan that Snape
                  would kill DD if necessary. I know some people think this is what
                  the `don't want to do it anymore' refers to, but I don't see DD
                  removing anyone's free will particularly when the end result is
                  going to be death. Unless we are meant to see a contrast between
                  the Unbreakable Vow where Snape has to kill DD or die himself, and a
                  promise to DD which Snape is free to break. Yet the conversation
                  overheard by Hagrid did suggest an element of compulsion by DD- or
                  only the same sort of compulsion Harry was under to recover
                  Slughorn's true memory? There do seem to be pointers of comparison
                  between DD and Jesus. Tonks has pointed out the Golgotha link,
                  which I hadn't seen at all. We also have the chalice in Gethsemane
                  and in the cave. However, if this is the case, DD's death in itself
                  would have to mean something over and above the fact that it just
                  happened, as Aslan's death saves Edmund in `The Lion, the Witch and
                  the Wardrobe'. Just some thoughts there.
                  Leah
                • flamewarrior03
                  ... plexus, upwards, along the spinal cord, to the pineal gland. This is where people often get confused between occultism and liberating alchemy. In both
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 9, 2007
                    Chris wrote:
                    >>Occultists try to drive the serpent of the kundalini, situated in thesacral
                    plexus, upwards, along the spinal cord, to the pineal gland. This is where
                    people often get confused between occultism and liberating alchemy. In both
                    occultism and alchemy a force rises up the spine and enters the pineal gland and
                    the crown chakra. In both cases there is a tremendous change in the person. But
                    in occultism it is the basilisk that rises upwards and enters the Temple of the
                    Holy Spirit to defile it with its evil eyes and poisonous fangs. It's called the
                    Light-birth of Lucifer. In Alchemy it is the New, Pure and Divine Soul,
                    personified in Harry, that rises up to the Temple where
                    it will celebrate the wedding with the Spirit. This is called the Light-birth of
                    Christ.<<

                    Chris, hello. What you write here is very interesting to me. I have always wondered why it
                    is that a few of the seekers and teachers I have met among both magic-workers and light-
                    workers have an unwholesome feel to their energy. These few feel like they are on a
                    completely different path to me, though we would seem at first glance to be following the
                    same practices or principles.

                    A Sufi friend of mine who used to work for an investment bank had a similar experience
                    among high-powered bankers who seemed to be fully realised beings with incredible
                    reality-distortion/creation fields around them, but only used their power in the service of
                    their firm, or of money, or of protecting their limited sense of family/community.

                    What you say explains a lot. Perhaps what makes the difference is not the actual practices,
                    but the desired results - the exultation of the ego as opposed to the service of Love?

                    xxoo flame
                  • chris
                    Flame wrote: Chris wrote: Occultists try to drive the serpent of the kundalini, situated in the sacral plexus, upwards, along the spinal cord, to the
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 11, 2007
                      Flame wrote:
                      >
                      Chris wrote:
                      >>Occultists try to drive the serpent of the kundalini, situated in the sacral
                      plexus, upwards, along the spinal cord, to the pineal gland. This is where
                      people often get confused between occultism and liberating alchemy. In both
                      occultism and alchemy a force rises up the spine and enters the pineal gland and the crown chakra. In both cases there is a tremendous change in the person. But in occultism it is the basilisk that rises upwards and enters the Temple of the Holy Spirit to defile it with its evil eyes and poisonous fangs. It's called the Light-birth of Lucifer. In Alchemy it is the New, Pure and Divine Soul, personified in Harry, that rises up to the Temple where it will celebrate the wedding with the Spirit. This is called the Light-birth of
                      Christ.<<

                      Chris, hello. What you write here is very interesting to me. I have always wondered why it is that a few of the seekers and teachers I have met among both magic-workers and light-workers have an unwholesome feel to their energy. These few feel like they are on a completely different path to me, though we would seem at first glance to be following the same practices or principles.

                      A Sufi friend of mine who used to work for an investment bank had a similar experience among high-powered bankers who seemed to be fully realised beings with incredible reality-distortion/creation fields around them, but only used their power in the service of their firm, or of money, or of protecting their limited sense of family/community.

                      What you say explains a lot. Perhaps what makes the difference is not the actual practices, but the desired results - the exultation of the ego as opposed to the service of Love?
                      <

                      Chris now:
                      I can't claim credit for writing any of that, it's lifted straight out of a post that Hans wrote a week or two back in response to one of mine puzzling over the apparent anomalies in Dumbledore's character.

                      If you're interested in the process it describes, it's well worth popping over to our sister discussion group, Summa Scientia Nihil Scire, where I've just posted the entire text of Jan van Rijckenborgh's exposition of this subject from Chapter 10 of his book 'The Coming New Man'. I posted the whole lot, because it seemed so important and, as with Hans' text here, I couldn't find a way of paraphrasing it without losing some of the meaning. Hans has promised to post on it there too, as soon as he gets some time.

                      If we get too far off the topic of Harry Potter, that group is the place to continue the discussion!

                      flame said:
                      >Perhaps what makes the difference is not the actual practices, but the desired results - the exultation of the ego as opposed to the service of Love?<

                      Chris:
                      I think that's key. If we look at something with the eyes of the ego, the picture we see is distorted, a bit like the hall of mirrors at a fairground (if they still have such things out there!). If we turn away from the voice of the ego every time it appears, gradually the distortion disappears from the picture and we start seeing what is really there.

                      And the clear picture is tremendously different from what we saw originally. And from our new perspective, we realise how strange our new perspective looks to someone who still holds the other point of view..

                      Jo illustrates this in every Harry Potter book, except perhaps the last one, by showing us how Harry's perception is completely reversed between the beginning of term, when he has it all to learn, and the end of term where he has absorbed the lesson.

                      It seems easist to illustrate this using Book 3. In the Shrieking Shack, we loathe Peter Pettigrew's point of view, but we completely understand it.

                      And the reason we so completely understand it is that it's a point of view based entirely on self-interest. And the loathesome thing we discover when examing ourselves is that this sense of recognition we get is because our normal point of view is similarly based on self-interest. Even when we convince ourselves that we're acting in the interests of someone else, we're only convincing ourselves of that out of self-interest :-)

                      Look at Fudge's view of Peter Pettigrew's actions - what a wonderful picture he paints of how selfless and heroic our Peter's behaviour is. And that's what we make it look like, on the surface. And if we are content to Fudge things, that's how it'll continue to appear to us. How did the Bible put it? Whited sepulchres was, I think, one of the terms used. It's about being content to accept the superficial appearance of things, being wiling to go with what appears to be true on the surface because it suits us, rather than going to the trouble of digging down deep and facing truth as it really is.

                      Harry digs down deep. Everyone tells him not to, they are Fudging the issue. Harry ignores them and confronts the issue And he is faced with a choice. The Peter Pettigrew world view, which is entirely ego-centric and which every reader finds easy to understand, and its opposite, the world view without a trace of ego in it, the path of self sacrifice that Sirius follows.

                      It is very difficult to understand where Sirius is coming from if we identify with the ego. If our values overlap with Peter's values at all, then Sirius' values will jar on us, to the extent that we do so.. And all our values overlap with Peter's values to some extent, even a saint needs a modicum of self-centred. effort to maintain him or herself in this world.

                      A lot of people don't like Sirius as a character, and just cannot come to terms with his behaviour. Well, I believe this is why :-)

                      Sirius represents the ultimate in self-sacrifice and service. Peter represents the ultimate in egocentricity.

                      And they absolutely loathe eachother. Each would like to see the other one killed off entirely.

                      In terms of liberating symbolism, it's possible for Peter to kill Sirius, I think, but Sirius couldn't have killed Peter, because Peter ultimately helps Sirius to survive.

                      Harry is faced with the choice between these two world views in Book 3 because this is the astral book, the book about fear and about desire.

                      Peter Pettigrew represents the ultimate in egocentric desire. The nature of this desire is such that if we go with it, if we buy into it, we buy into fear as part of the package. Once we reach for something for ourself, we create fear in ourself automatically, it is the other side of the coin. It is the price of wanting something for ourselves that we are immediately afraid of losing it.

                      Sirius represents the ultimate in self-sacrifice. And he is completely fearless. If we want nothing for ourselves, we do not create fear, it ceases to exist in us.

                      And being free of fear is absolutely marvellous, I thoroughly recommend it :-) And all we have to do to achieve this is to identify the voices of Peter and of Sirius within us, and consistently go with Sirius' suggestions and turn our back on Peter every time he opens his mouth.

                      It helps in doing this that the presence of ego-related thoughts are accompanied by tension in the solar plexus: the rat nestling in our Ron's jacket pocket. As soon as we spot this feeling with our minds on the alert, we can relax the solar plexus: Hermione the mind acquires a watchful cat Crookshanks, who has the task of chasing that rat away while she gets on with other things.

                      And the presence of fear within us is a sure indicator for the ego, and shows us it's time to chase Scabbers away. And is there a voice arguing that we're absolutely mad to do this? It's our self-centred past talking to us, it's the voice of our own personal Snape in our ear. One good Expelliarmus! from the combined forces of our heart Harry, our mind Hermione and our personality Ron will put him out of action for the immediate future!

                      Chris

                      .
                      Let your email find you with BlackBerry from Vodafone
                    • flamewarrior03
                      Hi Chris ... tension in the solar plexus: the rat nestling in our Ron s jacket pocket. As soon as we spot this feeling with our minds on the alert, we can
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 14, 2007
                        Hi Chris

                        You wrote:
                        > [snip] It helps in doing this that the presence of ego-related thoughts are accompanied by
                        tension in the solar plexus: the rat nestling in our Ron's jacket pocket. As soon as we spot
                        this feeling with our minds on the alert, we can relax the solar plexus: Hermione the mind
                        acquires a watchful cat Crookshanks, who has the task of chasing that rat away while she
                        gets on with other things.
                        >
                        > And the presence of fear within us is a sure indicator for the ego, and shows us it's time to
                        chase Scabbers away. And is there a voice arguing that we're absolutely mad to do this? It's
                        our self-centred past talking to us, it's the voice of our own personal Snape in our ear. One
                        good Expelliarmus! from the combined forces of our heart Harry, our mind Hermione and our
                        personality Ron will put him out of action for the immediate future!

                        I love this - especially the watchful Crookshanks bit :-D. Thank you!

                        xxoo flame
                      • Christina Nihill
                        I just realised that I missed this point, when commenting on Chapter 28 and 29. ... skull. ... Chris now: It is finished , Consummatum Est , is what Jesus
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 9, 2007
                          I just realised that I missed this point, when commenting on Chapter
                          28 and 29.


                          Tonks wrote:
                          > What you are going to do, do quickly.
                          >
                          > "Severus, please."
                          >
                          > It is finished. (Jesus on the cross)
                          >
                          > For a split second, He seemed to hang suspended beneath the shining
                          skull.
                          >
                          > And they called the place Golgotha. (Mark 15:22)

                          Chris now:
                          'It is finished', 'Consummatum Est', is what Jesus says in John 19
                          v30. But it isn't Dumbledore who says it, in chapter 27 of Harry
                          Potter. Instead it is said by Snape in chapter 28: 'It's over'. And
                          it is important enough that Jo emphasises it in the following chapter
                          as well, by having Harry repeat it to his audience in the hospital
                          scene.
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.