Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Chapter 5- An Excess of Phlegm

Expand Messages
  • Carolina
    Hello everyone!! Hans has asked me to introduce myself to the group...My name is Carolina, I am 22 years old and have been a fan of Harry Potter for about 4
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 13, 2005
      Hello everyone!!

      Hans has asked me to introduce myself to the group...My name is
      Carolina, I am 22 years old and have been a fan of Harry Potter for
      about 4 years now. I'm originally from Colombia and moved to the
      States not so long ago. I have been a member of this group for
      about a year now but just never had the time to post messages that
      is why I agreed to do the chapter five discussion. I felt I owed
      something to you guys. Okay here it is...please don't be too harsh
      on me. This is my first time and I never been too good with English
      and creating summaries and using big words. But enough about me and
      on to the discussion! Enjoy!





      Chapter 5
      An Excess of Phlegm

      Chapter five begins with Harry and Dumbledore making their way to
      the back door of the Burrow. The Burrow is described with a smell
      of "old Wellington boots and rusty cauldrons." A familiar smell to
      Harry and one that we notice he has missed. We also notice how Mrs.
      Weasley answers the door nervously and demands to know who it was.
      This shows us how the return of Lord Voldemort has made the
      wizarding community extremely paranoid.

      When Dumbledore and Harry make their way into the kitchen we notice
      that Mrs. Weasley is not alone but that she is there with a young
      woman despite the time. Harry recognizes her as Nymphadora Tonks.
      Tonks is described as "a young witch with a pale, heart-shaped face
      and mousy brown hair." Harry notices the difference between the
      Tonks he first met to the Tonks that he sees in front of him. She
      is not the same as before; she does not have the usual bubble-gum-
      pink hair. (Something that I found a bit odd when I first read the
      book.) He thinks that she looks drawn, maybe even ill.

      About a minute after Professor Dumbledore and Harry arrive Tonks
      begins to make her exit. She thanks Mrs. Weasley for the tea and
      her sympathy. Mrs. Weasley is a bit reluctant to let her go and
      looks concerned for the young witch. Dumbledore also mentions that
      he cannot stay, that he has "urgent matters to discuss with Rufus
      Scrimgeour." (A reason to believe that Dumbledore and the new
      minister have not settled their differences.)

      After both Tonks and Dumbledore leave, Mrs. Weasley sits down with
      Harry and they begin to talk. As he is eating, we discover that Mr.
      Weasley has been promoted and is now heading the Office for the
      Detection and Confiscation of Counterfeit Defensive Spells and
      Protective Objects, one of the several new offices that Rufus
      Scrimgeour has set up due to the war against Voldemort.

      According to Mrs. Weasley, with all the panic that Lord Voldemort
      has caused, new and odd things such as protective potions and
      amulets are being sold to the wizarding community. These protective
      potions or amulets are supposed to guard a person against Lord
      Voldemort but can actually have side-effects. They are actually
      useless against dark magic and Lord Voldemort himself. After a few
      moments of talking, Mr. Weasley arrives at the Burrow. Harry learns
      that he will be staying in the twins' bedroom and that they have
      moved out to Diagon Alley. They are now living in a little flat
      over their joke shop.

      The next day, we see Fleur and learn that she is engaged to Bill
      Weasley. Hermione, Ginny, and Mrs. Weasley are not too pleased by
      this announcement as opposed to Ron, who we notice is still weak to
      Fleur's veela powers. After Fleur mentions that she and Bill are to
      be married, she leaves the room and Ginny mentions that Mrs. Weasley
      hates Fleur. Mrs. Weasley begins to say that she does not hate
      Fleur but that she does think that both Bill and Fleur rushed into
      their engagement. Although she says that she does not hate Fleur,
      Mrs. Weasley has tried to get Tonks and Bill together. She keeps
      trying to bring Tonks around for dinner. Ginny and Hermione have
      both begun calling Fleur, Phlegm and are surprised when Harry
      defends her. He mentions that Fleur is not stupid and was smart
      enough to enter the Triwizard Tournament. All four of them begin to
      discuss Tonks' behaviour and have determined that she has not been
      acting the same since Sirius passed away. They call it survivor's
      guilt. At this point, Mrs. Weasley comes back to asks Ginny to come
      downstairs and help her with lunch. In my opinion, I think she
      doesn't want to be alone with her.

      Harry takes the opportunity of having just Ron and Hermione with him
      to tell them both about what Dumbledore told him the day before. He
      mentions that Dumbledore will be giving him private lessons this
      coming school year but that he is not sure what exactly Dumbledore
      will be teaching him. This leads to Harry telling them about the
      prophecy. Ron seems amazed and Hermione frightened after they
      discover the truth about the prophecy. Hermione is holding one of
      the twins' inventions when she accidentally squeezes it and it
      punches her. Not even caring that she got hurt, Hermione dismisses
      both of their concerns and gets straight to what exactly Dumbledore
      will be teaching him.

      After telling Ron and Hermione, Harry feels a lot better. Though he
      still has to face Voldemort, just the mere fact that Ron and
      Hermione are both still on his side or that both of them are still
      speaking to him and not shrinking from him as though he is dangerous
      makes him feel slightly better. Harry tells Hermione that Dumbledore
      mentioned something about their O.W.L results should be coming any
      minute now. She goes to check if they have arrived.

      The chapter ends with the trio comparing and discussing their
      chances in jobs for the future. Ron and Harry both receive seven
      O.W.L.s and Hermione receives eleven O.W.L.s.




      Things to consider:

      1. Tonks odd behaviour in this chapter. We have all known Tonks
      since book five, to be a care-free, happy, and bright. It was odd,
      in my opinion, for her to be so depressing and sad in this chapter.


      2. Mrs. Weasley's nervousness when she answers the door. The return
      of Voldemort has brought panic to the wizarding community. Mr. &
      Mrs. Weasley both having their own way of answering the door
      with "the questions" proves it.


      3. The relationship that Rufus Scrimgeour and Dumbledore have.
      Prior to Rufus, Dumbledore was known to basically run the Ministry.
      Everything that Dumbledore said was done, even if Fudge did not
      agree to it. Although Fudge did put his foot down, he made the
      wrong choice of not trusting Dumbledore. Fudge achieved the
      beginning of destruction of the Ministry during a war against
      Voldemort. Now with Dumbledore gone, we should keep watch on how
      Scrimgeour will now make his choices during the war.


      4. Hermione and Ginny's treatment of Fleur. I thought this was
      quite funny. We can obviously see that both Hermione and Ginny
      dislike Fleur with such passion. We have known that Hermione
      dislikes Fleur since the 4th book in which she was first introduce
      as a Triwizard Champion. But Ginny has gotten a habit of calling
      Fleur Phlegm which is one of the four humours of ancient and
      medieval physiology. Phlegm is thought to cause sluggishness,
      apathy, and evenness of temper. Now that Fleur and Bill are engaged
      we will get to see how they welcome her to the family.


      5. Something that I didn't mention in the summary... Ron says that
      the twins' shop is a huge success. The twins have proved that the
      choice of leaving Hogwarts and starting their own shop was the best
      for them, thus proving Mrs. Weasley, who we all know disapproved,
      wrong.


      6. The O.W.L results... Although the trio did quite outstanding in
      their exams we notice that Harry did not reach the required score
      for Potions. Harry received an O.W.L in everything but Divination
      and History of Magic, which is actually not a surprise seeing Harry
      didn't really care about Divination and he passed out during his
      History of Magic exam. The fact that he believes he won't be able to
      become an Auror is what really bothers him. Snape only lets students
      who receive an Outstanding in the Potions O.W.L into his N.E.W.T
      class. Harry only received an Exceeds Expectations. The whole thing
      brings me to think that Harry is seriously considering a job as an
      Auror.
    • M.Clifford
      ... Valky: Hello Carolina and welcome to posting! It s great to have you on the pitch. :D ... ... Valky: I agree
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 15, 2005
        Carolina wrote:
        >
        > Hello everyone!!
        <snip introductions>

        Valky:
        Hello Carolina and welcome to posting! It's great to have you on the
        pitch. :D


        > Carolina wrote:
        > Chapter 5
        > An Excess of Phlegm
        >
        <snip Chapter Summary>
        >
        >
        > Things to consider:
        >
        > 1. Tonks odd behaviour in this chapter. We have all known Tonks
        > since book five, to be a care-free, happy, and bright. It was odd,
        > in my opinion, for her to be so depressing and sad in this chapter.

        Valky:
        I agree this is a terrific place to begin the discussion of this
        chapter. It seems to me to launch straight into the evident alchemical
        theme of the Four Humours. I am unfortunately underinformed as far as
        this branch of study goes, so I am going to call for help from our
        fellow seekers while I just make my most gallant blindfolded attempt
        to release this snitch into the air.

        What I first can see is that Tonks represents two of the humours. We
        recall her as remarkably Sanguine - Caroline explains above, we knew
        Tonks as Happy carefree and bright - and encounter her here in a
        markedly Melancholic state. I can't help but imagine that this somehow
        pertains symbolically to the 'excess of phlegm' introduced in the
        title. We could certainly say that Remus, who we eventually discover
        is the reason for Tonk's distress, has an overly phlegmatic reaction
        to the war. For example his very oversimplified unfeeling approach to
        Snape "I neither like nor hate him" His incredible restraint in
        carrying out the horrible Order task of spying among the Werewolves -
        Harry and we instantly feel for him, knowing that the Remus we have
        come to love would suffer intensly in those circumstances not to
        mention having lost his best friend only a matter of a few weeks
        before - and yet he calmly and unemotionally informs Harry that he is
        sorry he has been too busy to write while filling him in on the grim
        details of his duty without the bat of an eyelid.. then we have his
        reluctance to give in to Tonks offer of Love and comforting
        togetherness, citing impracticality to her and other detached
        unfeeling attitudes. Do we see an excess of phlegm here? I think so.

        So over to the rest of the team. Who can describe the balances at work
        here in the humours. How has the excess of Phlegm cause Tonks Melancholy?

        >
        >
        > 2. Mrs. Weasley's nervousness when she answers the door. The return
        > of Voldemort has brought panic to the wizarding community. Mr. &
        > Mrs. Weasley both having their own way of answering the door
        > with "the questions" proves it.

        Valky:
        Continuing with the four Humours. Molly seems to be overloading
        Choleric here. Dumbledore has explained to Harry that the Weasleys
        have been put out of their way to provide protection for the extended
        family of the trio an the Weasley bunch to be together. Obviously a
        sacrifice that they'd gladly make, but something that has tied them up
        in uncharacteristically Choleric behaviour; being controlling and
        suspicious becomes the way they must live. Later in the book Ron tries
        to joke about the danger, but is thoroughly dismayed to find that the
        sanguineness of his beloved household has been thoroughly imposed upon
        by the choleric humour that casts its shadow on them now.

        Back to you, team. What else can be said about this, can we relate
        these things back to the unbalanced excess of Phlegm?




        > Caroline:
        > 3. The relationship that Rufus Scrimgeour and Dumbledore have.
        > Prior to Rufus, Dumbledore was known to basically run the Ministry.
        > Everything that Dumbledore said was done, even if Fudge did not
        > agree to it. Although Fudge did put his foot down, he made the
        > wrong choice of not trusting Dumbledore. Fudge achieved the
        > beginning of destruction of the Ministry during a war against
        > Voldemort. Now with Dumbledore gone, we should keep watch on how
        > Scrimgeour will now make his choices during the war.

        Valky:

        I read an excellent theory on HPFGU about Arthurs promotion seeming to
        be linkable to Harry's quest for Horcruxes. It is oddly coincedental
        that Arthur is manouvred into the a Ministry position relating to dark
        objects, and this leads me to speculate on what lies behind Rufus's
        frustrations with Dumbledore, really.

        It seems plausible to me, since we know very well that Arthur was
        never personally seeking any transfer or promotion out of the office
        of Muggle affairs. Arthur loves the Muggles, and his job that kept him
        in close relations with their interesting world, that Arthur is not in
        the Dark objects office for the payrise. Arthur is now a member of the
        OOtP and all members of the OOtP are being strategically manouvred by
        their leader in book six. Remus is placed with the Werewolves, we see
        Kingsley in the office of the Muggle Prime Minister, Arthur, I
        imagine, is no exception to this.

        I hypothesise that part of Rufus' frustration with Dumbledore is that
        his negotiations with the great wizard haven't been getting him the
        results he was vying for. But all the while Dumbledore has been
        getting his men into the right places in the Ministry, Arthur included.

        Hence I read with some certainty that Arthur's promotion is just his
        way of doing his bit for the war effort. Wouldn't Molly be
        disappointed to hear Arthur's plans to go back to his corner office
        someday, though.;D

        That's about all I can think of to contribute presently. Thanks to
        Caroline for an excellent Summary of the Chapter and a list of really
        great launching points for discussion.

        Best to all, Seekers

        Valky
      • Hans Andréa
        Carolina wrote: Carolina said: Okay here it is...please don t be too harsh on me. This is my first time and I’ve never
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 20, 2005
          Carolina <Mrs_DracoLuciusMalfoy@...> wrote:
          Carolina said:
          Okay here it is...please don't be too harsh on me.  This is my first time and I’ve never been too good with English and creating summaries and using big words.

          Hans:
          Congratulations, Carolina! Your English is really great and you’ve written a wonderful introduction. I hope we’ll hear a lot more from you!

          Carolina
          :
          The next day, we see Fleur and learn that she is engaged to Bill Weasley.  Ginny and Hermione have both begun calling Fleur, Phlegm and are surprised when Harry defends her.  He mentions that Fleur is not stupid and was smart enough to enter the Triwizard Tournament.
           
          Hans:
          It’s slowly beginning to dawn on me that this wedding we’re going to attend in Part 7 is going to be THE Alchemical Wedding where it all happens. As I’ve said in my character post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/message/621 Bill personifies the pineal chakra, or crown chakra, connected to the pineal gland. In my post The Wondrous Golden Flower http://groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/message/1478 I pointed out that an alchemist who has conquered death (symbolized by an open grave) achieves a new omniscient consciousness and a new mind capable of grasping the Divine Plan. Such a new consciousness and mind is symbolised in alchemy by a golden flower on the crown (of the head) of the alchemist. I have placed a photo of a painting symbolising this in the group’s photo archive.
          http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/vwp?.dir=/The+Wondrous+Golden+Flower&.src=gr&.dnm=Son+of+the+Serpents.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/harrypotterforseekers/lst%3f%26.dir=/The%2bWondrous%2bGolden%2bFlower%26.src=gr%26.view=t
           
          In addition, on the website there is a picture of the crown chakra on the Weasleys page, under “Bill”. http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com/symbols/weasleys.php#bill
          This picture comes from Leadbeater’s book, “The Chakras”. This is what I’ve written for Bill: The most beautiful and powerful chakra is personified by Bill Weasley. This chakra has 960 petals all of a beautiful violet colour, and a central whirlpool of twelve golden petals. In very spiritual people this whirlpool looks like a golden crown on top of the head. 12 petals? A flower? Fleur? Yes, to me it certainly seems as if Fleur symbolises the golden flower of 12 petals in the middle of the crown chakra. How intensely sublime! What a journey of unbelievably rich spiritual discovery this is turning out to be!
           
          Then there is that exquisite little clue we get in Part 6:
          ‘Our Great Auntie Muriel’, said Mrs Weasley after a long pause, ‘has a very beautiful tiara – goblin-made – which I am sure I could persuade her to lend you for the wedding. She is very fond of Bill, you know, and it would look lovely with your hair’.
           
          A tiara! A little crown! The crown chakra! We have already learned that anything made by goblins is indestructible, i.e. eternal. Remember the helmet Hagrid gave to the Gurg of the giants? My conclusion is that Bill and Fleur’s wedding will symbolise the achievement of the new, eternal consciousness. In normal people the golden flower inside the crown chakra sits concave in the middle, like a whirlpool, but when the Great Illumination comes, and the new consciousness is born, this whirlpool becomes convex and sits on the head like a crown, or a Wondrous Golden Flower.
           
          Just to digress, in the New Testament this moment is symbolised by the dove descending on the head of Jesus when he is being baptised in the Jordan by John, and by the descent of the Holy Spirit on the apostles and tongues (‘crowns’) of fire came out of their heads. In the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 34) this is when Moses reaches Mt Nebo and dies there (as to his old consciousness). In Buddhism this is the enlightenment Gautama achieved under the Bodhi tree. I’m sure there must be more references in all the world’s myths and scriptures.
           
          Just a few more thoughts about Fleur herself. Her name is Fleur Delacour. I’ve been told (correctly I hope) that Delacour means “of the court”. What court? The King’s court? This reminds me of The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross where the last day takes place at the king’s court. It is here that Christian Rosycross, having participated in the resurrection of the young king and queen, spends most of his time with them, and in fact is the young king’s confidante. I can see a scenario where Harry accompanies Bill and Fleur on a journey from Olympus (Olympe Maxime?) to the Court (Hogwarts?) where great celebrations are held. I’ve got that shivery feeling of being on the edge of a great discovery but not quite getting there.
           
          Incidentally, it is on this journey that Christian Rosycross is handed a letter for the king by the gatekeeper (Hagrid?). The letter turns out to contain an accusation that some one (i.e. Christian Rosycross himself) has seen sleeping Venus (love) naked in her secret chamber and therefore must take the gatekeeper’s place as a punishment. As you know, book 7 will deal with the Rubedo Phase, and many of us suspect that Rubeus Hagrid will die. Will Harry have to take Hagrid’s place as keeper of the keys at Hogwarts? If so, why?
           
          Jo’s description of Fleur also reminds me of Venus. A young woman was standing in the doorway, a woman of such breathtaking beauty that the room seemed to have become strangely airless. She was tall and willowy with long blonde hair and appeared to emanate a faint, silvery glow.
           
          Compare that with The Alchemical Wedding where Christian Rosycross sees Venus: Now I beheld a magnificent bed ready made, draped with beautiful curtains, one of which he drew back. There I saw the Lady Venus. Entirely naked – for he [the page] had also lifted the coverlets – lying there in such beauty and grace that I was almost beside myself. Makes you think, doesn’t it?
           
          I’m also intrigued by Fleur’s sister. Fleur says, You remember my seester, Gabrielle? She never stops talking about ‘Arry Potter. She will be delighted to see you again [at the wedding].
           
          So what does Gabrielle personify or symbolise? I must ask our Hebrew speaking members here. All I know is that when a Hebrew name ends in –el it means, “God” as in Gabriel, Michael, Uriel, etc. As we know Harry saved her (unnecessarily, but still...) in the lake. All very symbolic but beyond my grasp just now.
           
          It looks like I may have to change the stuff on the website. I wrote that before I’d read Part 6. This is what it says under the heading, Bill:
          The gland connected to this chakra is the pineal gland. This is symbolised by Dumbledore's office. In the climax of Harry Potter both Bill and Dumbledore's office will play a key role because this is where the Holy Spirit enters to perform the alchemical wedding. This wedding is the eternal unification of the spirit (Hermione), the soul (Harry) and the personality (Ron).
           
          And under the heading The Weasleys Role in the climax of the series I’ve written:
          In the final ceremony there is an alchemical wedding to unite Harry Ron and Hermione for ever. Bill Weasley plays a unique and essential role in this.
          However after the climax and the joy, something happens which suddenly changes everything. Harry ends up taking Hagrid's place as keeper of the Keys at Hogwarts. The story ends with Harry ferrying first years across the lake.
          Instead of the alchemical wedding uniting the trio, it looks like this wedding is going to be the one between Bill and Fleur. I will leave the website as it is until I know more (The Enlightenment would be handy just now).
           
          As usual, any explanation of the symbolism in Harry Potter raises more questions than answers. For example what is this business about Bill being bitten by a werewolf? In my discussion of Lupin I have mentioned that lycanthropy is a symbol for the flawed nature of earthly goodness. That’s probably true in a general sense, but it probably means more specifically. Does this also apply to Bill? Or will Bill not be affected by lycanthropy? Is it some veiled reference to the pineal gland or chakra of the ordinary mortal person being damaged by man’s animal nature? That would make sense.
           
          Also what was Fleur doing in Part 4? This part is the most difficult part for me as far as symbolism goes. All I know is that it shows a training ground for future Bodhisattvas. In earlier posts we’ve discussed the four elements: fire (the Goblet), water (the lake), air (flying through the air to fight the dragon) and earth (the maze). There are four trials, which Harry passes well. But why was Fleur there? And why doesn’t she do as well at the trials? It’s all incredibly intriguing.
           
          Carolina:
          He [Harry] mentions that Fleur is not stupid and was smart enough to enter the Triwizard Tournament.
           
          Hans:
          Exactly! She was judged by the Goblet of Fire to be the most intelligent and capable witch at Beaubatons. Is this a veiled reference to her role as the New Mind of the reborn alchemist? But I thought that was Hermione!
           
          Friends, I’m convinced I’m basically right about the symbolism in Harry Potter but I’m only scratching the surface.
           
          Valky:
          Thanks to Caroline for an excellent Summary of the Chapter and a list of really
          great launching points for discussion.

          Hans:
          Thanks for your post, too, Valky! I agree. I hope some members can help me work out this great puzzle.
           
          Warm regards to all.
           
          Hans


          "If I talk too freely about whether I believe in God I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling
          -------------------------------------------


          How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos. Get Yahoo! Photos
        • ornadv
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 20, 2005
            <Hans
            < So what does Gabrielle personify or symbolize? I must ask our
            Hebrew <speaking members here. All I know is that when a Hebrew name
            ends in –<el it means, "God" as in Gabriel, Michael, Uriel, etc. As
            we know <Harry saved her (unnecessarily, but still...) in the lake.
            All very <symbolic but beyond my grasp just now.


            Orna: (As an Hebrew speaking member…)
            I don't know, what Gabrielle personifies or symbolizes. I can only
            help in the literary sense, and in some traditional thought.
            In the literary sense Gabrielle is composed of two halves: the "el",
            as you said means God, and Gabri (actually "Gavri") means masculine,
            manly, male, manful, manly, mannish etc.

            If you would like to call a girl with this name, you would change it
            to Gabriella – which would soften the masculine touch, since it ends
            with "ella", which means goddess. But it still retains the masculine
            sign mark. And even nowadays, when it's kind of fashion to call boys
            and girls cross-gender names; I don't think I know any girl called
            just Gabriel. I think, it is actually the most masculine name, you
            can imagine. (But in french, I feel, Gabrielle has a definite
            feminine touch, doesn't it? So perhaps it's a matter of geography)

            It's funny, because it seems, Fleur symbolizes the ultimate
            femininity, in a way.


            In Jewish mysticism, which I don't know much about, he is the angel
            representing quite masculine values: judging by law (as opposed to
            compassion), fortitude, and strength. Is supposed to fight wars. But
            interestingly , it is said, he is also in charge of dreaming. As a
            force putting hints in the dreams, which point the person to look at
            what's wrong or needing change in his life.

            And, of course Gabriel appears in the bible in Daniel, but you don't
            need my help for this.

            Where does all this point? I can't imagine right now.


            In reference to the chapter in discussion, I just wanted to add,
            that it seems interesting, that until Bill is disfigured by the
            werewolf, Fleur's love for him is not believed, especially not by
            the feminine side. As a matter of fact, no virtue of her is
            remembered. When Harry reminds them, that the goblet chose her, so
            she must be smart, Hermione gets angry with him. Quite natural,
            psychologically speaking, but gives some thought about the ability
            of major figures in the story to detect real love. Harry is
            different, in keeping a friendly attitude towards her, without
            seeming to be entirely confused, like Ron. And Fleur's mentioning
            Gabrielle to him sounds like they are able to have a conversation,
            not too contaminated by "veela" force.

            Perhaps, just a thought- if Fleur has too one-sided feminine
            features, she needs to connect with some "masculine" traits, and
            perhaps that's why she didn't perform so well on the tournament –
            she was the only one not to get to her hostage- which symbolizes the
            complementary side of her nature, which she needs perhaps. In HBP,
            we know she gets a job, learns English, and is quite courageous, in
            my opinion, to endure the hostile atmosphere towards her, and come
            up with a very clear assertion, after Bill got bitten... It might
            explain the "Phlegm", because although Fleur is very far from this
            trait, phlegmatic is an attribution degrading women without energy.
            (Too much Yen, without Yang).And perhaps that's Ginny's way of
            addressing something there, which needs balance. Don't know…
            I don't know what I think of this myself, my feminist views feeling
            somehow uneasy about it. But that's my associations to the Fleur-
            Gabrielle issue.


            Warm regards to you all,
            Orna
          • iris_ft
            Hi Seekers, Welcome, Carolina, and thank you for your thought- provoking message. I ve found this chapter rather frustrating from a narrative point of view. I
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 20, 2005
              Hi Seekers,

              Welcome, Carolina, and thank you for your thought- provoking
              message.

              I've found this chapter rather frustrating from a narrative point of
              view. I expected more reactions when Harry finally tells Hermione
              and Ron the truth concerning the Prophecy. But now that I've read
              Carolina's post, I wonder whether JK Rowling didn't write it that
              way intentionally. Let's see…

              Carolina wrote :
              4. Hermione and Ginny's treatment of Fleur. I thought this was
              quite funny. We can obviously see that both Hermione and Ginny
              dislike Fleur with such passion. We have known that Hermione
              dislikes Fleur since the 4th book in which she was first introduce
              as a Triwizard Champion. But Ginny has gotten a habit of calling
              Fleur Phlegm which is one of the four humours of ancient and
              medieval physiology. Phlegm is thought to cause sluggishness,
              apathy, and evenness of temper. Now that Fleur and Bill are engaged
              we will get to see how they welcome her to the family.

              6. The O.W.L results... Although the trio did quite outstanding in
              their exams we notice that Harry did not reach the required score
              for Potions. Harry received an O.W.L in everything but Divination
              and History of Magic, which is actually not a surprise seeing Harry
              didn't really care about Divination and he passed out during his
              History of Magic exam.

              There's one thing I'd like to discuss, and it's the chapter's title.
              What does JK Rowling mean when she writes "An excess of Phlegm"?
              After reading Carolina's chapter analyze, I checked several
              dictionaries in order to get the definition of "phlegm". Here's what
              I've found:

              PHLEGM

              1st definition: Thick, sticky, stringy mucus secreted by the mucous
              membrane of the respiratory tract, as during a cold or other
              respiratory infection.

              I've also read that phlegm can be the consequence of an allergic
              reaction. That's the kind of reaction Molly, Ginny and Hermione tend
              to have when they see Fleur or talk about her. In their case, it's a
              wink to the reader; moreover, the character's name means "flower" in
              French, and we know that flowers can cause allergies. Molly, Ginny
              and Hermione literally have an allergy to Fleur. Molly can't bear
              her because she's about to marry her son. Molly is a rather
              possessive mother, so she isn't ready to let Bill leave her home for
              another woman. Furthermore, Fleur spends her time criticizing the
              Burrow, Molly's home. So Molly's reaction is quite understandable.
              Fleur seems to despise her home and she's going to take her Bill.
              Molly has "lost" Percy; Charlie is working far away from her, and
              the twins leaved home too. It's a hard time for a superlative mother
              such as Molly. So, when Fleur comes, pretending to marry Bill, she
              has an allergy to her. And finally, Fleur brings up Harry's
              breakfast. She doesn't let her feed Harry, and we know how important
              it is to Mrs Weasley.
              As for Ginny and Hermione, they have an allergy to Fleur because
              they consider her as a rival. When Fleur is here, Ron seems absent
              minded. And Fleur behaves in a very familiar way towards Harry: she
              kisses him on the cheek. Before she enters the room, the two girls
              were sitting on Harry's bed. JK Rowling doesn't give that kind of
              detail without an intention. We'll discover by the en d of the book
              that Ginny never gave up on Harry, and we have here the
              foreshadowing of their future relationship. As for Hermione… Her
              attitude is more ambiguous. She looks at Harry with the eyes of a
              mother. But on the other hand, we can also wonder whether there
              isn't more than friendship in her feelings. May as it be, Fleur
              subjugates Ron and she kisses Harry (even if it's only on the
              cheek!). That's more than Hermione and Ginny can bear. Molly,
              Hermione and Ginny forget one thing: Fleur loves Bill. They dislike
              her, so they underestimate her feelings. At the end of the book,
              Fleur will teach them a nice lesson concerning love. She'll oppose
              her love to their dislike.

              2nd definition: One of the four humours of ancient and medieval
              physiology, thought to cause sluggishness, apathy, and evenness of
              temper.
              3rd definition: Sluggishness of temperament.

              I put the two definitions together because they are very close. "An
              excess of Phlegm" could also mean that the characters, in that
              chapter, are sluggish. Or, if you prefer, that they are too
              careless. Let's see: when Arthur comes back home and wants Molly to
              respect the security rules, she protests. She doesn't seem to
              consider that someone she trusts could turn out to be dangerous.
              Later, while the kids are talking, every time the conversation tends
              to become serious (when Hermione evocates Sirius's death, when they
              talk about Percy, when Harry tells his friends what was in the
              Prophecy), there's always something to change the topic. They don't
              talk about Sirius's death to evocate Tonks's magical problems. When
              Hermione says something as important as "Dumbledore says people find
              it far easier to forgive others for being wrong than being right"
              (it could turn out to be a key sentence in that book, IMO), Ron
              replies: "Sounds like the sort of mental thing Dumbledore would
              say". The conversation doesn't go further; the reader forgets
              quickly Dumbledore's interesting declaration. And the question of
              Harry's doom is eluded when for the benefit of OWLs. Every time
              something serious comes out of the conversation, JK Rowling quickly
              overturns it. And finally, we come to what Carolina underlines in
              her analyze: Harry doesn't care about Divination and History of
              Magic. But as we'll see later in the book, Divination and History of
              Magic will play an important part in that story: isn't Trelawney
              actually telling us what is going to happen every time we meet her?
              But as we were told Divination isn't important, we don't care about
              what she says. As for History of Magic, well, that's what
              Dumbledore's lessons are, aren't they? Voldemort's story, the
              Horcruxes; these are elements of History of Magic. That careless
              treatment of important details could explain the title.

              4th definition: Calm; self-possession; equanimity.

              Well, it could also fit the title. Is it an allusion to Dumbledore's
              attitude? Or an allusion to Ron and Hermione's reaction when Harry
              tells them the truth about the Prophecy? Or an allusion to Harry's
              own reaction? I confess that I don't have much to say concerning
              that last definition of phlegm.

              I don't know if it helps... Feel free to complete this post if it is
              relevant, or to correct it if it isn't.

              Amicalement,

              Iris
            • Hans Andréa
              Yesterday I wrote (post 1506): Just a few more thoughts about Fleur herself. Her name is Fleur Delacour. What court? The King’s court? This reminds me of The
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 21, 2005
                Yesterday I wrote (post 1506):
                Just a few more thoughts about Fleur herself. Her name is Fleur Delacour. What court? The King’s court? This reminds me of The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross where the last day takes place at the king’s court. It is here that Christian Rosycross, having participated in the resurrection of the young king and queen, spends most of his time with them. I can see a scenario where Harry accompanies Bill and Fleur on a journey from Olympus (Olympe Maxime?) to the Court (Hogwarts?) where great celebrations are held. I’ve got that shivery feeling of being on the edge of a great discovery but not quite getting there.
                 
                Hans today:
                Those of you who have been members for quite a while will remember that I often sit in the bath for a long time, listening to tapes of Harry Potter. Sometimes I get inspiration that way. Well, tonight I was listening to the first Divination lesson in Part 3. Prof. Trelawney sees the Grim in Harry's teacup and screams. This thought of death suddenly brought to mind my post quoted above. Christian Rosycross accompanies the young king and queen on their trip from the Tower of Olympus to the castle where celebrations are held. But that is after the resurrection of the young king and queen, after their death, together with the black king, the grey king and their wives. So suddenly it occurred to me: are Bill and Fleur the young king and queen to die, together with Lupin (the grey king) and Tonks (his young wife) and Snape (the black king) and his very old wife? That would have tremendous implications. I'm not saying Harry isn't going to go through the Gate of Saturn; I'm not saying Ron isn't going to make a tremendous sacrifice, and obviously a great number of frightening and wonderful things are going to happen as well. But I have this incredible premonition that Bill and Fleur are the young king and queen who will be the central figures of the Alchemical Wedding of Harry Potter. I feel quite excited. As I said yesterday, It’s slowly beginning to dawn on me that this wedding we’re going to attend in Part 7 is going to be THE Alchemical Wedding where it all happens. So if this is going to be THE Alchemical Wedding, and Fleur and Bill are the king and queen, they're going to die and resurge! All the elements are there: Madame Olympe, the grey and black kings, the young couple, the gatekeeper (Hagrid) - everything is nearly in place.
                 
                As I've said previously, an alchemical death isn't a real death but a total purification of all that is earthly, and formed or created outside of the Divine Plan. If Bill and Fleur anatomically symbolise the crown chakra with its two parts, then this death makes sense. As it says on the website about the Weasleys, all the 7 chakras have to slow down their rotation, stop, and finally rotate anticlockwise. In Part 2 this was symbolised by the root chakra (Ginny) losing consciousness and then being revived by Harry's action of destroying the diary (subconscious mind). So maybe the death of Bill and Fleur will symbolise the cessation of the rotation of the crown chakra, followed by their resurrection, symbolising the new, anticlockwise rotation. This results in the descent of the Divine Spirit and the enlightenment. It all makes sense. I'm not making a prediction about this, but I do see it as a very exciting and probable possibility.
                 
                whaddayall think? Let me know if there are any flaws in my thinking here.
                 
                By the way, if any of you haven't read the Alchemical Wedding yet, I would recommend that you do so. It's on the website with gorgeous drawings. http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com/articles/wedding1.php Also Van Rijckenborgh's commentary on it is desert island reading.
                 
                I've only just had this thought, and now I'm going to think about its implications. I can imagine Valky getting excited about this too!
                 
                Warmest regards and cyberhugs to you all!!
                Hans


                "If I talk too freely about whether I believe in God I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling
                -------------------------------------------


                To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre.
              • Marianna Marinda
                Stepping out of lurkdom for a spell- I wanted to say to everyone how *much* I have enjoyed your insights! I am constantly amazed and inspired. :) Here are a
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 8, 2005
                  Stepping out of lurkdom for a spell- I wanted to say to everyone how *much* I have enjoyed your insights!  I am constantly amazed and inspired.  :)  Here are a few of mine...

                  Misc topic-related comments written up in an unfinished e-mail to the group months ago that I don't think I ever sent:
                  About Quidditch:  the name 'Quidditch' has always sounded a lot like 'quit it', an association that I find fits it well.  The quidditch pitch might well be compared to a 'quit it' ditch (not so unlike the pit of CR's dream), wherein everyone annoyingly chases and beats each other up over an object (the quaffle, or quarrel) that isn't even the real prize.  'Quit it!; keep it; beat it; chase it...catch that dirty rotten snitch'  Perhaps this has become so much a game to wizardkind that they don't realize how much their lives have come to be like it also.  Are the struggles of life just a game to wizards?  No wonder they set themselves 'above' muggles, collectively not concerning themselves with raising their condition and relieving the pain that is inherent in it.  (There are exceptions, however; the Order of the Phoenix is full of these!) 
                   
                  In light of the above, has anyone noticed the similar nature of the 4 champions of the Triwizard tournament?  The Goblet of Fire has, I'm sure, already been observed to be a representation of the holy grail- the cup of Christ... and so, the most worthy contenders are judged by the light of this ideal.  Among the Hogwarts contenders, Angelina (a chaser) and Warrington (a beater) are surpassed by Cedric (the seeker contender), and all of the champions who have a Quidditch connection, are *seekers*.  Incidentally, Fleur has comparable qualities, being that she is part Veela:  Veela have characteristics that suggest Sirens, who are related to/a form of Mermaids, which are classically known for their inherent wisdom and love.  (This touches onto a subject I have much more to say about, but in another context, eventually.)  In any case, she rates comparably.  So, there are brought together (from the 4 four cores [corners] of the wand [world]), the champions of Christ, whose singular objective is to 'win the cup'.


                  Hans wrote:
                  >Also
                  what was Fleur doing in Part 4? This part is the most difficult part for me as far as symbolism goes. All I know is that it shows a training ground for future Bodhisattvas. In earlier posts we’ve discussed the four elements: fire (the Goblet), water (the lake), air (flying through the air to fight the dragon) and earth (the maze). There are four trials, which Harry passes well. But why was Fleur there? And why doesn’t she do as well at the trials? It’s all incredibly intriguing.<


                  In part 4, I see foremost the 4 elements symbolized by the champions themselves... they are each a champion/representative for their element, and as such, bring to the foreground (of our awareness) the most Christlike attributes (suggested by their being chosen by the goblet of fire) that members of that element possess/nurture.  There had to be 4 champions, and yet they were from only 3 schools... in a way representing the clash between Good/White (1 school) and Evil/Black (2nd school
                  ), and the 3rd school representing the grays of in-between.  (FYI, I observe the schools to fit this way:  1:Beaubatons, 2:Durmstrang, 3:Hogwarts... which is why Hogwarts had 2 champions (the grays had to balance)). 

                  In coordination with the stated elemental assignments of the Potterverse, that would put Harry=fire, Fleur=Air, Cedric=Earth, and Krum=Water. 
                  (I actually notice them opposite of this, which highlights to me the amazing phenomenon/wisdom of Perspective.)  Anyway- Fleur, as the most Christly representative from the school of Air (think Ravenclaw!), has a lot of true knowledge- and rightful confidence in her knowledge.  As such, she can easily be in a position to be impatient with those who appear to have less.  (Compare with Krum having a lot of ability, Cedric being education & service, Harry having inspiration and innocence)  Still, knowledge (bordering on inspiration and education) without ability (her opposite), is ultimately ineffective (in any element!)... and so she is subject to failure.  In the water, of course, she was most out of her element, and so she fared worst.

                  Fleur is a very important aspect of the whole, and I find her role quite interesting.  :)


                  Orna wrote:
                  >I don't think I know any girl called just Gabriel. I think, it is
                  actually the most masculine name, you can imagine.<
                  > It's funny, because it seems, Fleur symbolizes the ultimate
                  femininity, in a way.<
                  >Where does all this point? I can't imagine right now. <
                  >In reference to the chapter in discussion, I just wanted to add,
                  that it seems interesting, that until Bill is disfigured by the
                  werewolf, Fleur's love for him is not believed, especially not by
                  the feminine side. As a matter of fact, no virtue of her is
                  remembered. When Harry reminds them, that the goblet chose her, so
                  she must be smart, Hermione gets angry with him. Quite natural,
                  psychologically speaking, but gives some thought about the ability
                  of major figures in the story to detect real love. Harry is
                  different, in keeping a friendly attitude towards her, without
                  seeming to be entirely confused, like Ron. And Fleur's mentioning
                  Gabrielle to him sounds like they are able to have a conversation,
                  not too contaminated by "veela" force. <


                  These are some excellent observations!  Fleur knows how to identify real love... and as personifying the ultimate feminine, what is most dear to her is the ultimate masculine.  In a way, that is like saying what is most dear to humanity is the Christ child  (if humanity was aware, of course, like Fleur is aware... it would be).  That would also explain why she softens to Harry when he shows a brotherly love for that which is most dear to her- she recognizes him as an equal in that respect, and suddenly treats him as a friend.

                  Fleur's haughtiness tends to conceal the fact that she knows what love is, and when she feels it for someone.  She knows she loves Bill, and doesn't have to prove it to anyone else; it ends up not being very evident to them until tragedy happens, however- kind of like you don't realize the depth of the sky (air reference!) during the day (because the light is so plentiful), but it becomes oh-so-evident when looking up into the distant stars at night (when it is not).  It wasn't the depth of her love that changed- only the observer's view of it.  Here again, the concept of perspective comes in to play... it seems to be her bane in the world, as much as it is also her greatest asset.


                  Iris wrote:
                  PHLEGM... 4th definition: Calm; self-possession; equanimity.

                  Well, it could also fit the title. Is it an allusion to Dumbledore's
                  attitude? Or an allusion to Ron and Hermione's reaction when Harry
                  tells them the truth about the Prophecy? Or an allusion to Harry's
                  own reaction? I confess that I don't have much to say concerning
                  that last definition of phlegm.


                  This definition is quite interesting to me as well.  The way I look at it, in relation to Fleur, has to do with her understanding of Love.  The unconditional expression of real love is not a simple thing to communicate in a divided world, and it makes sense to me that one who would present it to another would also appear guarded and/or indifferent.  Those appearances can be characteristic of the perfected unweilding
                  thought structure and/or complete emotional balance which allows one to be comfortable/deal with anything their loved one will dish out.  One who knows such an expression is based in Love (Bill) will feel the unconditional aspect of it; others won't recognize it for what it is.  In any case, the outer expression, when based in real Love, signifies the inner calmness/self-possession/equanimity that must exist to successfully present it. 

                  In this way I think Phlegm correctly characterizes Fleur- in a grand-complimentary way, no less- even though the term has been assigned in an uncomplimentary fashion.

                  Greetings from New Jersey, everyone!
                  :)
                  Marianna
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.