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Re: [harrypotterforseekers] Another look at Snape.

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  • Hans Andréa
    M.Clifford wrote: To start with, I think that there has long been a mainstay of our collective amity that Severus Snape: is aligned
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 24, 2005
      "M.Clifford" <Aisbelmon@...> wrote:
      To start with, I think that there has long been a mainstay of our
      collective amity that Severus Snape: is aligned neutral; is
      representative of a darker physical (fallen) side of the greater
      personality of the HP series seeker; and is destined to eventually
      make a sacrifice (of himself) to Harry's cause, which he neither looks forward to nor wants particularly, but will eventually give.

      I have pondered as deeply as I can the significance of Severus Snape's latest position in the story, and the seeker symbols that he has in the past represented, and after reading Marianna's post, I think that I may be able to describe Snape in his final wholeness in the series.

      Hans:
      Valky, I think what you have written about things from Snape's point of view is simply brilliant! There is absolutely nothing I can find fault with or in any way disagree with. As you know I agree that Snape, as the Black King in The Chymical Wedding, symbolises our sinful past and so what you say absolutely fits in with this.
       
      Let me say something now that I consider extremely important. If this were to be the only thing people accept from me after my innumerable posts I would be blissfully happy: all the gospels, all the fairy tales and legends of any deep spiritual meaning have one underlying aim: they describe spiritual processes which the seeker should PUT INTO PRACTICE in his own life TODAY! I am saying emphatically that the story of Jesus and John, the story of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, the Quest for the Holy Grail, etc, and Harry Potter, describe processes which can and should happen in our own being, our own miniature world, when we go the spiritual journey which is the true purpose of life on earth. If we read Harry Potter with an open heart, our head uncovered, and with bare feet, we can find there the instructions for the alchemical processes which can lead us to total liberation. We just have to stop taking everything literally and develop a way of interpreting the symbols so that they tell us about ourselves and what we should do.
       
      In this context Snape is our own past of occult experimentation, of self-aggrandisement, of seeking eternal life for the self, which is essentially just a temporary phenomenon. This is why Jo makes Snape a "past" Death Eater. When we go the Path of Alchemical Liberation we have this past in us as a living force, as a tendency to go down a well-worn, steep, slippery slope, and to be an individual, "aligned neutral", as Valky says. Jo tells us that this past is hostile to the New Soul, and in her post Valky has described Snape's point of view in a simply brilliant way that makes perfect sense. I can say personally that it has given me a far greater insight into Snape's point of view and the way he thinks, and I shall never see him in the same light. This is most helpful in understanding Snape as a character and what his motivations are, and this in turn can help us understand this aspect of our own self.
       
      Valky:
      And this is why, it is so very chanceworthy that Severus Snape had
      been spending his spare time concocting a plan of his own.
       
      Hans:
      Right! Be warned, when you go the Path there will be a tendency within you to act as you have always done in the past, for many incarnations: be in charge, keep everything under control, stick to your own plan. You are so intelligent, so clever, you know what's going on. You are a great wizard with enormous skills in occlumency, legilimency, potions and spells. Your head is full of learning and you have spent years studying the laws of occultism, which are just the same as the laws of liberation with only a slight difference. Skills, intelligence, learning and will-power are the ways that lead to spiritual achievement!

      Valky:
      When he finally meets Harry and Neville, he wastes no time trying to
      wheedle this majestic magic out of them. Starting with the logical
      choice he probes Harry "Tell me what you know Harry Potter. Enlighten me immediately!" But Harry can not and does not.
       
      Hans:
      Lesson 1. What is the difference between the New Soul and the old tendency to go the path of Luciferic enlightenment? The New Soul, Harry, is not special when it comes to brain-learning. That is not important in Alchemy!
       
      Valky:
      At the end of the year Harry gets lucky with the Philosopher's Stone. As far as most of the people at Hogwarts know, Dumbledore saved Harry at the last second, and he ended up in the hospital wing.
       
      Hans:
      Lesson 2: The New Soul is inherently not interested in this world. Its life and all its treasures are nothing to Harry. His interest lies in freeing himself of the arch-ruler of this world, Voldemort. The way the New Soul grows and defeats the resistances within are a mystery to the old way of thinking. This does not understand that the old values are worthless and that the New Soul conquers through selflessness, love and its ability to call on the help of beloved friends.
       
      Valky:
      The next year Snape tries from the start to make Harry go away. At the end of the year Harry rescues Ginny, with some timely luck on his side, and again the assistance of Dumbledore.
       
      Hans:
      Lesson 3: The New Soul's way is compassion, loyalty to the Healing Spirit - Dumbledore, its innocent purity and its total commitment to doing what it knows is right. Things like skill, learning, and advanced magic play no role in Harry's defeat of the basilisk and Tom Riddle. Snape doesn't even get to hear about Harry's noble deed of extreme compassion and quick thinking in liberating Dobby.
       
      Valky:
      Snape prepares for another year of Harry.. And when the moment finally arrives, of all the darn insults! Harry and his friends turn on Him! To couple it Sirius escapes, and he doesn't get credit for doing *anything* right.
       
      Hans:
      Lesson 4: Harry wins because of his Stag Patronus and his love of Hagrid, Buckbeak and Sirius. The New Soul overcomes the forces of darkness through his longing for the Original Spirit and his love of the forces of spiritual liberation. These are things Snape cannot understand. They play no role in his life and he has no conception of them. Snape and Harry live in two separate universes in this respect.
       
      Valky:
      Harry's fourth year and Snape's Dark Mark is beginning to sear. Harry is showing no signs of this power, Neville is clearly unable to get anyone's hopes up and LV has just hit town with a vengeance.. Snape knows he will soon be up to his eyeballs in the job and he still doesn't have that power, what on earth will he do...
       
      Hans:
      Lesson 5: Harry has triumphed over Voldemort in a duel and Snape doesn't even know about it! This is an important lesson, friends. When the New Soul is doing its alchemical work in us we are not fully conscious of its achievements because its ways are so different to the old ways that we have used successfully in the past. God's ways are mysterious, and different to ours.

      Valky:
      Year Five, Voldemort has returned, and Harry is back again. [brilliant writing snipped - sorry Valky!] "Phineas overheard Dumbledore telling him later in his office. It was when he thought about Sirius Black!"

      Snape's heart leaps almost out of his throat. He has it! Finally he
      has found what he is looking for. Now if only he can figure out how to get it from him.
       
      Hans: No, Severus! You'll never get it from him. The old way of thinking of the mortal personality can never understand the simplicity, the purity, the love of the New Soul. If you study Harry with all your legilimency for the rest of your life you'll still never understand what motivates Harry and what his secret is. Give it up!
       
      Lesson 6: When the New Soul is born in your heart and is growing in grace before men and God, don't try to understand its secret. Don't try to study its essence, its quintessence. That is pointless and unachievable. Just surrender to it and help it grow, like the good part of your past: Lupin. It will not be you who defeats Voldemort, but Harry, and he'll do it without a wand, without skill, without violence, without learning. He'll do it through Love.

      Valky:
      Sixth Year. [I'm snipping the whole of this.] 
       
      It is certain that only Harry can vanquish Voldemort, as it only he who shares Voldemort's blood. Snape doesn't know this, but I can't bring myself to imagine that all of Snape's effort to bring LV down himself would be in vain if he has indeed made this effort. Which I am sure he has, and I fully expect most everyone to find this Snape story I pose fully supportable if and when they reread.

      If you have read this far, you might be thinking that I took too much poetic license here, and I am too thinking that. But I am sure the Alchemy works here. The self is transformed by the new soul and shares all with it but its purity (the blood). It must die to make way for the purity. Is that right?

      I think so.
       
      Hans:
      It sounds great to me, Valky! I don't think you took too much poetic licence. What you have written is feasible and really makes sense.
       
      As I said, I now see Snape in a different way, a much clearer and more defined way. So my warmest thanks for this magnificent scenario, which, even if it turns out in book 7 not to be 100% spot on, is good enough to make us really think about Snape and his role, and hence about our own role in the process of liberation. I takes me 'at off to yuh!
       
      Conclusion: Snape, our sinful past, does not value Harry's Spiritual gifts: compassion, love, getting people to help and support him (because of his help to and support of them), and his "luck", which is actually the sum-total of his goodness.


      "If I talk too freely about whether I believe in God I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling
      -------------------------------------------
      Hans Andréa


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    • nancy aronson
      Hans: Snape is our own past of occult experimentation, of self-aggrandisement, of seeking eternal life for the self, which is essentially just a temporary
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 25, 2005
        Hans:
        Snape is our own past of occult experimentation, of
        self-aggrandisement, of seeking eternal life for the
        self, which is essentially just a temporary
        phenomenon.
        Nancy:
        A little confused here about how eternal is temporary

        This is why Jo makes Snape a "past" Death Eater. When
        we go the Path of Alchemical Liberation we have this
        past in us as a living force, as a tendency to go down
        a well-worn, steep, slippery slope, and to be an
        individual, "aligned neutral", as Valky says. Jo tells
        us that this past is hostile to the New Soul…
        Nancy:
        Now I’m confused about how neutral means hostile

        Valky:
        And this is why, it is so very chanceworthy that
        Severus Snape had been spending his spare time
        concocting a plan of his own.

        Hans:
        Right! Be warned, when you go the Path there will be a
        tendency within you to act as you have always done in
        the past, for many incarnations: be in charge, keep
        everything under control, stick to your own plan. You
        are so intelligent, so clever, you know what's going
        on. You are a great wizard with enormous skills in
        occlumency, legilimency, potions and spells. Your head
        is full of learning and you have spent years studying
        the laws of occultism, which are just the same as the
        laws of liberation with only a slight difference.
        Skills, intelligence, learning and will-power are the
        ways that lead to spiritual achievement!
        Nancy:
        And the difference is…achievement versus what? after
        reading on i'm guessing that achievement is a
        reference to the irrelevant “brain-learning” you later
        describe. ‘old’ thinking achievement v. ‘new soul’
        love?

        Valky:
        At the end of the year Harry gets lucky with the
        Philosopher's Stone. As far as most of the people at
        Hogwarts know, Dumbledore saved Harry at the last
        second, and he ended up in the hospital wing.

        Hans:
        Lesson 2: The New Soul is inherently not interested in
        this world. Its life and all its treasures are nothing
        to Harry. His interest lies in freeing himself of the
        arch-ruler of this world, Voldemort.
        Nancy:
        I’m confused by how the desire to free himself from
        Voldemort indicates a lack of interest in this world.
        Also, if he’s uninterested in this love, whence the
        passion for the House Cup? Quidditch/inter-house
        competition doesn’t strike me as entirely spiritual.
        Is it to be regarded, more importantly, as the
        ultimate alchemical agenda? And if so, how does having
        a winner and losers affect balance/integration?
        Hans:
        The way the New Soul grows and defeats the resistances
        within are a mystery to the old way of thinking. This
        this? Old way of thinking? does not understand that
        the old values are worthless and that the New Soul
        conquers through selflessness, love and its ability to
        call on the help of beloved friends.

        Valky:
        The next year Snape tries from the start to make Harry
        go away. At the end of the year Harry rescues Ginny,
        with some timely luck on his side, and again the
        assistance of Dumbledore.

        Hans:
        Lesson 3: The New Soul's way is compassion, loyalty to
        the Healing Spirit –
        Nancy:
        Or, possibly, expressing his “saving people thing”
        Hans:
        Commitment to Dumbledore… doing what …is right. Things
        like skill, learning, and advanced magic play no role
        in Harry's defeat of the basilisk and Tom Riddle.
        Nancy:
        Interesting.
        How do you think Harry knew to insert basilisk tooth
        in diary (horcrux)? Was this an example of a more
        instinctual, less knowledge-based decision?

        Valky:
        Snape prepares for another year of Harry…And when the
        moment finally arrives, of all the darn insults! Harry
        and his friends turn on Him! To couple it Sirius
        escapes, and he doesn't get credit for doing
        *anything* right.

        Hans:
        Lesson 4: Harry wins because of his Stag Patronus and
        his love of Hagrid, Buckbeak and Sirius. The New Soul
        overcomes the forces of darkness through his longing
        for the Original Spirit and his love of the forces of
        spiritual liberation. These are things Snape cannot
        understand. They play no role in his life and he has
        no conception of them. Snape and Harry live in two
        separate universes in this respect.
        Nancy:
        The end of Book 3 is a magnificent convergence of
        examples of the extent to which old thinking affects
        the ability to think flexibly in the present.
        Snape and Harry enter the Shrieking Shack prepared to
        villify Sirius with equal intensity, if for different
        reasons. Harry’s able to access compassion which
        enables him to see the truth despite his rage. There’s
        no reasoning with Snape. Remus has been blocked by his
        past and makes the peculiar decision to refrain from
        divulging the whole animagus/secret passage thing.
        Pettigrew’s stuck in the past decision of betraying
        james and lily and joining the voldemort team keeps
        him stuck. The ministry doesn’t have the flexibility
        to call off the dementor’s kiss.

        Conclusion: Snape, our sinful past, does not value
        Harry's Spiritual gifts: compassion, love, getting
        people to help and support him (because of his help to
        and support of them), and his "luck", which is
        actually the sum-total of his goodness.

        Nancy:
        I find the conclusion helpful, esp in light of your
        early statement about the importance of
        operationalizing the lessons of the Potterverse. for
        example, you recently posted about creative
        application of the series to cope with depression.
        Depression can be a succumbing to the anvil-like
        weighty evidence of one’s past. New thinking is
        required in a big, big way.





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      • Hans Andréa
        nancy aronson wrote: Hans previously: Snape is our own past of occult experimentation, of self-aggrandisement, of seeking eternal
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 25, 2005
          nancy aronson <nancygaronson@...> wrote:
           
          Hans previously:
          Snape is our own past of occult experimentation, of self-aggrandisement, of seeking eternal life for the self, which is essentially just a temporary phenomenon.
           
          Nancy:
          A little confused here about how eternal is temporary.

          Hans now:
          I think the confusion probably arises through uncertainty about what the word "which" refers to. In "proper" English, i.e. according to the rules of grammar, the word "which" refers to the word it goes next to. In the above quote, "which" is next to "self". Hence it is the self which is temporary. I think you're interpreting the word "which" as referring to "life". That would mean I was saying eternal life is temporary, which is a self-contradiction. Unfortunately not everyone sticks to this rule and it is so often broken that people forget about its existence. Let us in this group go for the old fashioned rules of grammar and punctuation, please.
           
          Hans previously:
          This is why Jo makes Snape a "past" Death Eater. When we go the Path of Alchemical Liberation we have this past in us as a living force, as a tendency to go down a well-worn, steep, slippery slope, and to be an individual, "aligned neutral", as Valky says. Jo tells
          us that this past is hostile to the New Soul…
           
          Nancy:
          Now I’m confused about how neutral means hostile.

          Hans now:
          True, not explained properly. From Snape's perspective he is neutral. He is an individual, striving to achieve his own ends. But from Harry's perspective he is quite hostile. What I'm saying is that Snape personifies within us a force which was part of being a seeker before the new soul was born. The seeker has to have a phase in his life where he explores the meaning of life for the temporary self. This phase includes all sorts of experimentation on the horizontal plane, for example occult experiments. Jo describes Snape as studying the dark arts intensely during his youth. Eventually however, the seeker realises that the purpose of life is not to be found on the horizontal plane (by horizontal I mean on earth) and he "lifts his eyes UP to the hills, where his help comes from". The seeker realises that he can't find his treasure on earth and so he looks up. This is when James and Lily marry. James symbolises the longing for God. This is seeking on the vertical plane, arising from the realisation that the purpose of life is not here. In the world of symbolism the hills or mountains symbolise the majesty, grandeur and apparent unattainability of the divine life.
           
          In the pensieve scene James says what he doesn't like about Snape is "the fact that he exists". Snape is just minding his own business, being "neutral", when James turns him upside down. When the seeker approaches the stage that the lilybud in his heart is about to open, his old world is literally turned upside down.
           
          Then Harry is born. Valky has described Snape's point of view brilliantly. Snape doesn't hate Harry; he just has contempt for him. He just thinks Harry is "mediocre", without worthwhile qualities. By "worthwhile" of course I mean from the earthly point of view, which is Snape's. From the point of view of the seeker, who is now going the Path of becoming God, everything worthwhile to Snape is worthless to the New Soul, and vice versa. I guess it comes down to two irreconcilable voices speaking in the seeker on the Path: Snape and Harry - the old tendency to seek solutions on the horizontal plane, and the New Soul, which is the Son of God and has only spiritual goals. Every seeker on the Path of Liberation will recognise these two voices within himself. If he listens to both voices this will cause him much suffering and anguish. The only solution is to listen only to the New Soul and "kill" Snape. This is why in The Chymical Wedding the black king is decapitated.
           
          Valky:
          And this is why, it is so very chanceworthy that Severus Snape had been spending his spare time concocting a plan of his own.

          Hans before:
          Right! Be warned, when you go the Path there will be a tendency within you to act as you have always done in the past, for many incarnations: be in charge, keep everything under control, stick to your own plan. You are so intelligent, so clever, you know what's going on. You are a great wizard with enormous skills in occlumency, legilimency, potions and spells. Your head is full of learning and you have spent years studying the laws of occultism, which are just the same as the laws of liberation with only a slight difference.
          Skills, intelligence, learning and will-power are the ways that lead to spiritual achievement!
           
          Nancy:
          And the difference is…achievement versus what? After reading on I'm guessing that achievement is a reference to the irrelevant “brain-learning” you later describe. ‘old’ thinking achievement v. ‘new soul’ love?

          Hans now:
          Yes, but there's more to it, of course. In my previous paragraph I've started to explain that Snape's aims are on the horizontal plane, while Harry's are on the vertical one. This is symbolic of the aims and hence the achievements of these two conflicting forces in the seeker. This is an extremely wide topic and we could write books about this. Horizontal symbolises all the aims and achievements of the mortal, earthly personality. As you know, to achieve anything on earth you have to work hard; to learn, to develop skills, to practise will-power and determination, etc. To achieve things in Heaven (as a symbol for the vertical plane, the Divine Plane) you need none of those things. All you really need is the Stag, the Longing for God, and this will lift you vertically up out of the horizontal plane, just as Christian Rosycross was lifted out of the pit when he grabbed the liberating rope.
           
          That's all I have time for. I hope this has given you something to think about. I'll continue as soon as possible.
           
          Love to all.


          "If I talk too freely about whether I believe in God I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling
          -------------------------------------------
          Hans Andréa


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        • M.Clifford
          ... Your head is full of learning and you have spent years studying the laws of occultism, which are just the same as the laws of liberation with only a slight
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 26, 2005
            > Hans before:
            Your head is full of learning and you have spent years studying the
            laws of occultism, which are just the same as the laws of liberation
            with only a slight difference.


            Valky now:
            I needed to single out this point here, because this is what explains
            the mention I made earlier of what Snape represents s a DADA teacher.
            Snape is the Gnostic DADA teacher. His particular understanding of
            Dark Arts is pointed out to be *similar* to Harry's. Its actually a
            terrific demonstration of the perprendiculrity of their paths that
            Hans talks about. Both have a first hand regard for the Dark Arts and
            regard for it's power, its mutability, and for the assuidity,
            cogitation and meditation that is behind the wielding of it. Snapes
            regard is clearly different to Harry's though both are speaking from
            personal experience, Snape is deeply respectful of the means, Harry
            is, naturally, respecting of what the means has accomplished. Both
            have the intrinsic understanding of what makes the Dark Arts a
            formidable evil. Hence they are similarly equipped in their knowledge
            of defense against it.

            I recently described Harry's regard as healthier than Snapes, and I am
            sure most here would agree with that, however Snapes regard is yet a
            significant thing because it reflects his knowledge, wisdom, skills
            (parallel to the seekers coronation ), currency (ability to spy being
            *in* with Voldemort) and of course his experience with the way.

            This is important in that we are shown now the outline of Snape,
            however indirectly, that encapsulates the mysterious shadowy figure we
            were introduced to long ago. I was actully quite surprised to see him
            turn up as the gnostic teacher, but after contemplating the whole
            picture I wonder why I never realised it before.. (denial that DD
            would die, probably).

            Nancy:
            And the difference is…achievement versus what? After reading on I'm
            guessing that achievement is a reference to the irrelevant
            "brain-learning" you later describe. `old' thinking achievement v.
            `new soul' love?

            Valky:
            Hi Nancy, Hans gave you answer to this already I know, and I wnt to sy
            a few things in relation to it too. But first I'd like to give you my
            perpective on your question.

            The thing is it's not really a difference, but for the unexplainable.
            The unexplainable *is* love, and love is harder to explain than
            anything. This is why I have pursued the line of thought that Snape
            has been doing the same as Harry all along, the unexplainable in HP is
            the Prophecy and how it is destined to Harry and Voldemort even though
            there is every chance that both parties could just walk free of it,
            hence the difference between Snape and Harry merely is that Harry is
            the chosen. Snape is no more or less any other thing than Harry they
            have both walked metaphorically (perpendicularly) in the same
            direction, from newness to discovery, to revelation, to trial -
            finally in HBP they walk side by side keeping a pace with each other,
            and at the end it is Snape who outpaces Harry out of Hogwarts and off
            into the final adventure.

            The horizontal vs vertical directions are demonstrated well here too,
            Snape beats Harry in the footrace across the ground of Hogwarts, while
            Harry stays put to watch Dumbledore's soul soar straight up to the
            heavens. JKR says in her interview that now it's personal between
            Harry and Snape, I have begun to see that now its apparent it always was.

            I am patiently awaiting the revelation to occur at HPFGU that Snape
            has been hit with exactly the same magic that Harry inadvertantly uses
            to force Voldemort out of his body at the end of OOtP. Snape knows
            what the Dark Lord is going to feel when Harry takes him down, because
            he has felt it himself, the force of it knocked him flying across the
            room and scattered his well trained mind out into the ether. The thing
            is that Snape does not run and hide from this magic. He goes back
            without a seconds hesitation, for more and he spends his every quiet
            second the next year hoping to catch another glimpse. Clearly Snape is
            not evil or he could not bear to see or feel Harrys ;D *Sirius* Magic.
            Rather he is hungry for it very hungry.

            In any case, Harry hit Voldemort and Snape with the same thing in
            OOtP. His love for Sirius. Snape is the only person who has felt it
            other than Voldemort, and only because he has been seeking it so
            intently since the day they met, like Harry has. Between Snape and
            Harry is a very personal connection but Snape cannot weild the same
            power as Harry. Hence the real difference between them is an
            inexplicable thing that Harry has/is destined to. And that's what it
            will come down to.

            Hans:
            The seeker realises that he can't find his treasure on earth and so he
            looks up. This is when James and Lily marry. James symbolises the
            longing for God. This is seeking on the vertical plane, arising from
            the realisation that the purpose of life is not here. In the world of
            symbolism the hills or mountains symbolise the majesty, grandeur and
            apparent unattainability of the divine life.

            In the pensieve scene James says what he doesn't like about Snape is
            "the fact that he exists". Snape is just minding his own business,
            being "neutral", when James turns him upside down. When the seeker
            approaches the stage that the lilybud in his heart is about to open,
            his old world is literally turned upside down.


            Valky:
            I like that you have delved into this subject Hans. I m going to give
            these words some thought because I am very curious about this scene.

            Oh there's one more thing you've reminded me of that I forgot to say
            in my posts about the Astral plane. Like the Ethereal Plane, once the
            seeker is aware, the ability to function within the plane is
            facilitated. In POA the seekers mind functioning within the Ethereal
            existence is demonstrated by the Time Turner that Hermione uses. In
            GOF the new soul (Harry) having just become Astrally aware will be
            able to cogitate conjunctions again, this is symbolised in GoF by
            Harry being able to enter the pensieve. The contents of the pensieve
            is shimmery silver like a star and it contains dream-like
            full-dimensional recordings mixed yet separate, I can't think of a
            better way to symbolise the astral plane.


            Valky
          • Hans Andréa
            nancy aronson wrote: Hans previously: Lesson 2: The New Soul is inherently not interested in this world. Its life and all its
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 27, 2005
              nancy aronson <nancygaronson@...> wrote:
               
              Hans previously:
              Lesson 2: The New Soul is inherently not interested in this world. Its life and all its treasures are nothing to Harry. His interest lies in freeing himself of the arch-ruler of this world, Voldemort.
               
              Nancy:
              I’m confused by how the desire to free himself from Voldemort indicates a lack of interest in this world. Also, if he’s uninterested in this love, whence the passion for the House Cup? Quidditch/inter-house competition doesn’t strike me as entirely spiritual. Is it to be regarded, more importantly, as the ultimate alchemical agenda? And if so, how does having a winner and losers affect balance/integration?
               
              Hans now:
              Firstly I'll answer the question about Quidditch.
               
              I see Harry Potter as a completely symbolic tale, an allegory of a person who wants to undergo the process of alchemical transmutation and transfiguration from a mortal imperfect biological creature to an imperishable and perfect child of God. By the way, it is not important to me whether you believe that this is possible. The aim of my posts is to prove that the foundation of Harry Potter is this alchemical process. Quidditch is symbolic of the whole process the candidate for liberation is aiming for. I have written in detail about Quidditch in past posts, so just to sum up again: the snitch, as the top of the caduceus, symbolises the new divine consciousness that Harry will achieve in book 7. The meaning behind "seeker" is obvious. Also it is extremely significant that the match is over as soon as a seeker catches the snitch. Life in this universe marked by pairs of opposites, while God's universe is not (or so the Gnostics believe). When the Mercury Consciousness is achieved, the game of opposites ceases and the seeker (who is now a finder) enters the Realm of Absolute Good.
               
              But of course we musn't lose sight of the packaging of the story of liberation. Now you tell me, what boarding school book with adventures for children doesn't contain exciting sports matches? In this context it is also important that everybody love Harry. If he were a saint to start with would the world love him? I think what makes Harry so dear to all of us is the mistakes he makes, and the flaws he has. And yet we are thrilled when he does learn a lesson. For example I find his pride of being seen with Neville and Luna in the train in his sixth year compared to his shame of being seen with the same two people in his fifth year an extremely gut-wrenching thing. He simple says, "They're friends of mine." Wow Harry, I love you.
               
              In such a symbolic story everything simultaneously works on different levels. On the superficial or "packaging" level Harry has learns lessons like the one above. But on the deepest level, the foundation, which teaches us how to achieve liberation, Harry has innate qualities which he hasn't learned by experience. It is these qualities which Dumbledore loves about him so much, and why Harry is "Dumbledore's man" to the core. If we replace the word "Dumbledore" by "holy sanctifying spirit" you'll know what I mean.
               
              Have a look at this extract from Part 6: In spite of all the temptation you have endured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you were at the age of eleven, when you stared into a mirror that reflected your heart's desire, and it showed you only the way to thwart Lord Voldemort, and not immortality or riches. Harry, have you any idea how few wizards could have seen what you saw in that mirror? This is the point: Harry was never interested in immortality or riches. And this is my point: the New Soul, when it is born in the seeker, is not remotely interested in the physical world. I hope I've been able to explain my point of view. I would advise you to read my essay on the website and my old posts for a better understanding.
               
              Hans previously:
              Lesson 3: The New Soul's way is compassion, loyalty to the Healing Spirit –
               
              Nancy:
              Or, possibly, expressing his “saving people thing.”
              Hans now:
              That's all part of the same thing. We are talking about the inherent qualities of the New Divine Soul, the soul of the original human being who once lived in the Perfect Universe. The task of this Child of God is to carry out God's Plan. Through the Fall, which essentially was simply a deviation from the Divine Plan, this original soul "died". However this death was like Briar Rose's century long sleep. In the heart of every human being is a "lily" which contains the complete potential for the return to life of the original human being, complete with Spirit, Soul and Body.
               
              When the new soul is born it contains all the inherent qualities of the Child of God, having the same qualities of God Himself. Compassion is an aspect of Love, and we all know God is Love. Compassion could never tolerate people being left to die, as Harry thought in the lake when he tried to save the other hostages. In any case I believe the four trials in Part 4 refer to trials the Bodhisattva-in-training has to face. But that's another story.
               
              Nancy:
              How do you think Harry knew to insert basilisk tooth in diary (horcrux)? Was this an example of a more instinctual, less knowledge-based decision?
               
              Hans now:
              Yes I believe so. This is a wonderful illustration of how the New Soul will always know what to do at the right time. Hence if we as seekers have a New Soul, and we listen to it, we will always know what to do. To hammer home the point, in Part 6 Jo has written an exquisite description of what it feels like to have a new soul. This is Harry's experience when he has taken Felix Felicis. Look at this: It was as though the potion was illuminating a few steps of the path at a time. He could not see the final destination, he could not see where Slughorn came in, but he knew that he was going the right way to get that memory. This is what it feels like to have a New Soul! Do you notice how Jo is suddenly talking about a "path"? What has any of this to do with a path? In my opinion this is where Jo is nailing her flag to the mast and telling us that what it's like to go the Path of Liberation. If we have a New Soul it will illuminate a few steps of the Path at a time. We can't see the final destination, but we know, we KNOW, we'll get there.
              Nancy:
              The end of Book 3 is a magnificent convergence of examples of the extent to which old thinking affects the ability to think flexibly in the present. Snape and Harry enter the Shrieking Shack prepared to vilify Sirius with equal intensity, if for different reasons. Harry’s able to access compassion which enables him to see the truth despite his rage. There’s no reasoning with Snape.
               
              Hans now:
              Well said, Nancy! I agree with you and like your way of putting it.
               
              Nancy:
              I find the conclusion helpful, esp. in light of your early statement about the importance of operationalizing the lessons of the Potterverse. for example, you recently posted about creative
              application of the series to cope with depression. Depression can be a succumbing to the anvil-like weighty evidence of one’s past. New thinking is required in a big, big way.
               
              Hans now:
              Thanks a lot for your feedback, Nancy. I appreciate. And also very warm thanks for your recent contributions. You are really helping the group.


              "If I talk too freely about whether I believe in God I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling
              -------------------------------------------
              Hans Andréa


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            • nancy aronson
              ... Nancy: another example of harry s commitment to liberating the wizard world: there s no question about whether or not he ll forsake ginny for the magnitude
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 29, 2005
                > Hans previously:
                > Lesson 2: The New Soul is inherently not interested
                > in this world. Its life and all its treasures are
                > nothing to Harry. His interest lies in freeing
                > himself of the arch-ruler of this world, Voldemort.

                Nancy:
                another example of harry's commitment to liberating
                the wizard world: there's no question about whether or
                not he'll forsake ginny for the magnitude of his
                quest. even she expects it, that’s why she loves him,
                etc.

                i find dumbledore's instruction to have harry include
                ron and hermione interesting, and i wonder what you
                make of it.

                also, dumbledore's lessons with harry inform your
                argument. he keeps on showing harry, over and over,
                the difference between determination and freewill,
                between prophecy and choice. is this his way of
                helping harry to understand his (harry's) true nature
                is that which you describe <capable of love, worthy of
                this mission, able to focus on issues beyond himself>?

                harry is going to godric's hollow (instead of
                hogwarts) in search of the horcruxes. he is following
                the path that dumbledore has set. he is no longer
                concerned with the education that would prepare him to
                be an auror. ...one imagines that if he catches
                voldemort, he might get an honorary degree from
                hogwarts...nonetheless, worldly concerns are clearly
                obscured by Quest.

                > Hans now:
                > ...Quidditch is symbolic of the whole process the
                candidate for
                > liberation is aiming for….the snitch, as the top of
                the caduceus,
                > symbolises the new divine consciousness that Harry
                > will achieve in book 7…. The meaning behind "seeker"
                > is obvious. Also it is extremely significant that
                > the match is over as soon as a seeker catches the
                > snitch.

                nancy:
                i remember first reading about this on HPfGU and
                thinking your caduceus insight was very interesting. i
                wonder if, after book 7, jo will let us know if your
                theory is correct. Nonetheless, the meaning you’ve
                contrived for seeker, the caduceus: very cool.

                It’s interesting that as the books go on, harry's
                relationship to the sport diminishes in intensity.
                very interesting that though snape wouldn't allow him
                to play his final game, harry doesn’t seem terribly
                bent out of shape; just as long as Gryffindor wins,
                and esp if they beat ravenclaw, it doesn’t seem to
                matter who plays seeker.

                harry's priorities have clearly shifted. More than
                with the thrill of the game, he seems mildly
                preoccupied with not pissing off his house. he is a
                far cry from oliver wood. Further evidence for this
                shift: harry’s desire to trail Draco that makes him
                late for the game. Related thoughts --- Cormac, the
                most crazed Quidditch player, comes off as a bit of an
                ass --- contretemps between Ginny and Hermione about
                the ability to be truly passionate/understand the
                game.

                hans:
                > I think what makes Harry so dear to
                > all of us is the mistakes he makes… his pride of
                being seen
                > with Neville and Luna in the train in his sixth year
                > compared to his shame of being seen with the same
                > two people in his fifth

                Nancy:
                Very endearing, yes. Harry is able to see what counts.
                In keeping with this awareness, Ginny is a more
                appropriate love-object than Cho; she has more sound
                values (sticking up for Luna rather than for Marian
                Edgecombe, the little traitor). Ginny is firmly in
                line with harry’s cause; Harry is less concerned with
                how he appears; more devoted to said cause and those
                who truly support it.

                What doyou think aobut harry's talent originally being
                spotted because he's sticking up for neville (that
                saving people thing), retrieving the remembral from
                scheming draco. is this the first time that harry
                realizes that if he breaks the rules that he may be
                not only able to get away with it, but to be rewarded?
                Even mcgonagall’s sense of the rules mellows out in
                the face of a substantial sports win for her house.
                Harry certainly has had some very tricky/subtle
                lessons to learn.

                hans:
                > Have a look at this extract from Part 6: In spite of
                > all the temptation you have endured…
                nancy:
                got it

                > Hans now:
                . the New Soul will always know what to do at
                > the right time….Felix Felicis.

                Nancy:
                Hans, what do you think of harry’s overwhelm in the
                cave? Although DD had given him the solution to
                dealing with inferi (fire), harry freaked and forgot.
                DD mentioned that the inferi are about fear of the
                unknown. Is this an example of Harry’s dependency
                getting in the way of thinking clearly? He did come
                through for DD in the most important way by getting
                him to drink the killer potion. Do you think DD knew
                that the horcrux was a ruse?

                Hans, about felix felicis:
                > In my opinion this is where Jo is
                > nailing her flag to the mast and telling us that
                > what it's like to go the Path of Liberation. If we
                > have a New Soul it will illuminate a few steps of
                > the Path at a time. We can't see the final
                > destination, but we know, we KNOW, we'll get there.

                Nancy:
                I thought it was interesting when slughorn referred to
                his two perfect days. It was almost like jkr was
                saying to her audience that it’s ok to drop acid a
                couple of times, but anymore and you start displaying
                some goofy symptoms….i liked when slughorn praised
                harry about his euphoria potion, something about mint
                offsetting other possible goofiness.

                What do you make of harry’s decision to exploit HBP’s
                potions advice? Perhaps according to your theory it
                was to show that that sort of knowledge is
                unimportant. I found myself thinking back to classes
                where I found it really frustrating that I wasn’t
                talented. Maybe with hard work I could do B+ work, but
                I simply didn’t have what it took to generate A
                material. I remember working with faulty textbooks,
                too! It was interesting to see Hermione’s reaction to
                harry’s slippery ethics.

                perhaps such passages merely illustrate jkr's abiity
                to evoke schoolroom memories.
                >
                >
                > Nancy:
                > The end of Book 3 is a magnificent convergence …
                > Hans now:
                > Well said, Nancy!
                Nancy:
                Thanks, Hans.

                > Hans now:
                > Thanks a lot for your feedback, Nancy. I appreciate.
                > And also very warm thanks for your recent
                > contributions. You are really helping the group.
                Nancy:
                Well, it’s remarkable that you have put so much into
                nurturing this group. And I so appreciate that you
                have taken time to respond to my posts. I have a few
                to get to, but must restrain myself for now.

                About your request for articles: occasionally I root
                around for is some sort of Jewish commentary on the
                Potterverse. Most of what I’ve found is pretty
                superficial, nothing near hans-marianna-valky-saraquel
                level. I’m saying this without having looked through
                your links. I believe that a while ago, perhaps when
                you first introduced the list, ou made a general
                request for a number of perspectives including
                Kabbalah parallels, and so far I haven’t seen much
                that I can recall. My very basic knowledge of kabbalah
                is that it involves finding the balance between
                judgment and compassion. In general, my understanding
                of Jewish theology is that it’s more rule-based, less
                love-based, than Christian thought. More McGonagall,
                less Dumbledore, perhaps. Also study is really, really
                important. Anyway, if I find anything good, you’ll be
                the first to know. Now I'll briefly check your site.

                Thanks again, Hans~

                n g a


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              • Hans Andréa
                Thanks for your wonderful post, Nancy. Although there is a pile of old posts to read through and comment on I ll do yours first because you ve addressed it to
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 29, 2005
                  Thanks for your wonderful post, Nancy. Although there is a pile of old posts to read through and comment on I'll do yours first because you've addressed it to me personally. Any other member is free to join in, of course.

                  nancy aronson <nancygaronson@...> wrote:
                  I find Dumbledore's instruction to have Harry include Ron and Hermione interesting, and I wonder what you make of it.

                  Hans:
                  My personal view of this is that the trio is the essence of the alchemist. Harry is the heart-sanctuary, Hermione the head-sanctuary and Ron the pelvic sanctuary. When they are united they form the complete personality of the alchemist, who cannot achieve liberation without these three parts of himself being in complete balance and harmony. Dumbledore as the healing holy Spirit knows this.
                   
                  Nancy:
                  Also, Dumbledore's lessons with Harry inform your argument. He keeps on showing Harry, over and over, the difference between determination and free will, between prophecy and choice. Is this his way of helping Harry to understand his (Harry's) true nature is that which you describe <capable of love, worthy of this mission, able to focus on issues beyond himself>?
                   
                  Hans:
                  I think Dumbledore's words are more directed at the reader than Harry. But basically I think you're right.

                  Nancy:
                  Harry is going to Godric's Hollow (instead of Hogwarts) in search of the horcruxes.
                   
                  Hans:
                  Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't think Harry's expecting to find any Horcruxes there. He's just making it the beginning of his journey as this is where it all started for him. He's probably hoping for clues there.

                  Nancy:
                  I wonder if, after book 7, Jo will let us know if your theory is correct.
                   
                  Hans:
                  So do I. I suspect though that Jo will say, when asked the big question, "Well, isn't it obvious?"

                  Nancy:
                  What do you think about Harry's talent originally being spotted because he's sticking up for Neville (that saving people thing), retrieving the remembral from scheming Draco. is this the first time that harry realizes that if he breaks the rules that he may be
                  not only able to get away with it, but to be rewarded? Even    McGonagall’s sense of the rules mellows out in the face of a substantial sports win for her house. Harry certainly has had some very tricky/subtle lessons to learn.
                   
                  Hans:
                  I'm not saying your conclusions are wrong here, but I think there is a deeper foundation beneath all this. I did some posts about Neville Longbottom a while back. See Neville's explanation on the website. This may sound crazy to some people, but liberating Alchemy teaches that many of the organs of the body play a vital role in the alchemical processes. One of these is the medulla oblongata. If you write Neville Longbottom underneath that you will see just how close the two phrases are. You need only shift and change a few letters to get one from the other. As I said in my posts then the idea of Neville being one day older than Harry symbolises their close connection. Just to repeat briefly: God knocks on the medulla oblongata, as the door to the heart sanctuary, three times. The first time he knocks as the Father, making the person concerned a seeker. Valky pointed out that it is Neville who dropped the remembrall, setting in motion the actions that led to Harry being made Seeker by McGonagall. The second time God knocks he knocks as the Son. This is the birth of the New Soul. This is obviously just after the medulla has let the Son in, symbolised by the birth of Neville. The third time God knocks as the Holy Spirit. This is the supreme moment when the Alchemist has made gold. This is the enlightenment, the descent of the Holy Spirit, the birth of the New Consciousness, the Alchemical Wedding of Spirit, Soul and bodily system. Hence I agree with many people that Neville will play an absolutely vital role in book 7. It will be he who will symbolically make possible the resurrection of the eternal, immortal and perfect Son of God.
                   
                  Just to get back to the Seeker scene in book 1: Draco  symbolises the spinal cord with its old mortal serpent fire, and so seen anatomically he is actually underneath Neville, while Harry is the new Serpent-Fire which will one day replace Draco. This whole scene is a foreshadowing of future events.
                   
                  Nevertheless I think what you're saying is also valid. This marvellous book contains layer upon layer upon layer.

                  Nancy:
                  Hans, what do you think of harry’s overwhelm in the cave? Although DD had given him the solution to dealing with inferi (fire), harry freaked and forgot. DD mentioned that the inferi are about fear of the unknown. Is this an example of Harry’s dependency getting in the way of thinking clearly? He did come through for DD in the most important way by getting him to drink the killer potion. Do you think DD knew that the horcrux was a ruse?
                   
                  Hans:
                  I just listened to Jim Dale reading this scene and I feel that it is deeply symbolic and intensely spiritual. As the books go on Jo is making use of the symbols of the Mystery Schools, with which I am not familiar. In this particular case, as is the case with the climax of each of the seven parts, it is important to read behind the superficial events.
                   
                  Just to diverge I must tell you about a thought I had while sitting in the bath listening to this. I had this overpowering feeling that Harry Potter as a whole radiates an intense goodness that can't nailed down by specific quotes. The whole story just seems saturated with an ineffable goodness; it has an atmosphere of love, rectitude, purity and compassion. Unconsciously millions of people pick this up, and this is its bewitching power. Shame, I say, on those people who are not sensitive to this and do not intuitively perceive the story's powerful, radiant goodness. I'm thinking of the fundamentalists and people who write books and articles condemning Harry Potter as inciting Satanism etc. In my opinion they are admitting their souls are closed off to the heavenly fragrance of goodness that emanates from Harry Potter. They are in fact judging themselves.
                   
                  To resume my answer: I feel the cave symbolises the heart. The cave is often used to symbolise the heart in myths and legends, for example some stories say Jesus was born in a cave, and the Buddha also spent time in a cave, cleansing it of evil spirits.
                   
                  The locket, as I explained previously, symbolises the emotional ego. This is equivalent to the sixth level of the Tower of Olympus. By this time the alchemist has become very advanced indeed. He has already overcome his fears, emotions and desires. However these are not totally gone but lie buried as "corpses" in the heart. I therefore see the inferi as the "dead" emotions that stay dead as long as the alchemist follows the instructions of the Spirit that is leading him to the goal. Jo is giving us a warning that, although dead, our old fears, phobias etc can come back and overwhelm us if we do not stick to the "path". There is a similar warning in The Voice of the Silence which I believe Jo transcribed in a previous incarnation. Harry's motives are extremely noble when he breaks the surface of the lake; he is trying to give succour to Dumbledore, whom he believes to be dying. I think (but I'm not sure) that the whole thing is a warning without throwing any aspersions on Harry. Dumbledore wakes up in time to create the fire-circle which saves them. The fire-circle is an extremely exalted and holy symbol in the teachings of liberation. At this moment I can't tell you about it. Suffice to say that if the alchemist follows the instructions which are given to him by own spiritual intuition, the fire-circle will protect him and stop the old dead emotions coming back to life.
                   
                  I do not think Dumbledore suspected the locket was a false one. On two occasions he told Harry he believed the horcrux was in the cave and I don't think he would ever lie to Harry. Keep knowledge from him, yes, but not expressly lie to him.
                   
                  OK I will leave it for now and finish my reply later.
                   
                  I feel my last answer is a bit clumsy, but please realise that it always takes me a long time to figure things out. It took me at least a year to make sense of part 5, and I've only read part 6 about three times. It's a matter of listening to my intuition and thinking deeply.


                  "If I talk too freely about whether I believe in God I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling
                  -------------------------------------------
                  Hans Andréa


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                • M.Clifford
                  ... DD had given him the solution to dealing with inferi (fire), harry freaked and forgot. DD mentioned that the inferi are about fear of the unknown. Is this
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 29, 2005
                    > Nancy:
                    > Hans, what do you think of harry's overwhelm in the cave? Although
                    DD had given him the solution to dealing with inferi (fire), harry
                    freaked and forgot. DD mentioned that the inferi are about fear of the
                    unknown. Is this an example of Harry's dependency getting in the way
                    of thinking clearly? He did come through for DD in the most important
                    way by getting him to drink the killer potion. Do you think DD knew
                    that the horcrux was a ruse?
                    >
                    > Hans:

                    > To resume my answer: I feel the cave symbolises the heart. The cave
                    is often used to symbolise the heart in myths and legends, for example
                    some stories say Jesus was born in a cave, and the Buddha also spent
                    time in a cave, cleansing it of evil spirits.
                    >
                    > The locket, as I explained previously, symbolises the emotional ego.
                    This is equivalent to the sixth level of the Tower of Olympus. By this
                    time the alchemist has become very advanced indeed. He has already
                    overcome his fears, emotions and desires. However these are not
                    totally gone but lie buried as "corpses" in the heart. I therefore see
                    the inferi as the "dead" emotions that stay dead as long as the
                    alchemist follows the instructions of the Spirit that is leading him
                    to the goal. Jo is giving us a warning that, although dead, our old
                    fears, phobias etc can come back and overwhelm us if we do not stick
                    to the "path".

                    Valky:
                    In the cave Dumbledore says to Harry - I think we must resign
                    ourselves that at some point they will realise we are not Lord
                    Voldemort.
                    Dumbledore is referring to the Inferi here. The corpses of fears
                    emotions and desires that the seeker has overcome. Dumbledore implies
                    that they will remain dormant as long as they are not aware that the
                    visitors are not Voldemort. Doesn't his in fact imply that the corpse
                    will not remain dormant if the path is followed. Dumbledore seems
                    certain that only time stands between them and the Inferi rising.
                    But moreover, I wonder what mystery could be hidden in those words -
                    we are *not* Lord Voldemort.

                    If Voldemort is the fallen Microcosm, and Harry is liberating the
                    emotional ego of the fallen Microcosm and the corpses that guard the
                    fallen Microcosms emotional ego would be past dead desires and fears,
                    then it first occurs to me that the Inferi are incarnations of the
                    fallen microcosm. Voldemort placed them there, which implies that they
                    are incarnations that have been shackled by the fallen world, to the
                    wheel of reincarnation.

                    When Harry Accio's the Locket in the first intance he sees these
                    soulless shadows jump up from their icy water. Does this then suggest
                    that if the seeker tries to liberate the ego from outside the depths
                    of the heart, from its edge, that it will bring to the surface the
                    living death of reincarnation?

                    The seeker then goes to the inner heart, where his faith is indeed
                    tested. Harry feeds Dumbledore the green potion which creates violent
                    images in Dumbledores head apparently. I am inclined to believe that
                    they are the memories of someone who has gone before into the inner
                    heart the memories of his incarnation of being shackled by Voldemort.
                    Dumbledore drinks the potion and the Voldemort has made it such that
                    there is only on course left for the drinker if they complete the
                    potion, they must delve into the still waters of the fallen worlds
                    eons of icy hell away from the warmth of the hearth of the original
                    spirit. Harry does this. And before he has removed his hand from the
                    icy water his own warmth has alerted the Inferi to the source that
                    they are starved of. The Inferi do realise that Harry is not Lord
                    Voldemort. He is too warm. These past incarnations try to take hold of
                    the seeker. Harry would be overwhelmed by this because it is his small
                    spark of warmth fighting to stay alive against eons of cold *sin*.
                    Dumbledore rises to encircle Harry in fire, protecting his inner spark
                    from being doused by the enthusiasm of the eons without a spark. I
                    think that the whole attack of the inferi is symbolic of the thirst of
                    the fallen world for the warm blood of compassion. A thirst so eager
                    and desperate that it would smother the new soul extinguishing it's
                    spark in its eagerness to be near it. Inferi are definitely
                    characterised as a creature that smothers its victim. As Dumbledore
                    says afterwards, it is quite understandable.

                    Why does Harry use the Jinxes and Curse he has learned against the
                    Inferi, rather than the circle of fire that Dumbledore told him to
                    use. Well first I think it's in character for Harry to be a
                    visual-kinetic learner, he's not exactly the *best* listener, so
                    there's that. And also there is that he has liberated his mental ego
                    in his past step, he has not yet liberated the emotional ego. Harry
                    hasn't taken the Locket out of the basin, Dumbledore takes it out not
                    Harry. Harry has only just begun his process, he is nowhere near
                    finished.
                    The HBP textbook throughout the HBP story is the object representing
                    Harrys being able to work with a liberated mental ego. THe HBP is an
                    innovative outside the box thinker, a liberated mental ego. Harry
                    absorbs the Princes words easily and naturally. He feels affinity with
                    the liberated mental ego. Where Hermione feels uncomfortable and Ron
                    cannot even read the Handwriting. The Sectumsempra curse is Harrys
                    effort to use his liberated mental ego to overcome the eons of
                    sadness. This is a sign of his faith, not his lack of it. It awakens
                    the Holy Spirit Dumbledore who protects Harrys spark with fire,
                    Dumbledore liberates the emotional ego of the fallen world, and it is
                    Harry's faith that calls him to do it.

                    On the way out of the cave, Harry gives payment of *his* blood. This
                    symbolises the sealing of his liberation into this plane, I think. He
                    has, in the end, promised/bequeathed his spark to the thirsty eons.
                    And it has made him stronger and liberated his emotional ego. He is no
                    longer overwhelmed, The Holy Spirit Dumbledore is glad to be with him.

                    Does this sound anywhere near right to you seekers?

                    Valky
                  • nancy aronson
                    H: Thanks for your wonderful post, Nancy. Although there is a pile of old posts to read through and comment on I ll do yours first because you ve addressed it
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 29, 2005
                      H:
                      Thanks for your wonderful post, Nancy. Although there
                      is a pile of old posts to read through and comment on
                      I'll do yours first because you've addressed it to me
                      personally. Any other member is free to join in, of
                      course.
                      N:
                      Hola, Hans!
                      Yes, everybody please feel free to join in.
                      Hans, I’m thinking now about the end of your post: “It
                      took me at least a year to make sense of part 5, and
                      I've only read part 6 about three times. It's a matter
                      of listening to my intuition and thinking deeply.” I’m
                      wondering what variables affect my info processing
                      speed. When I don’t get something, or have an
                      objection here or there, am I being pedantic? Do I
                      lack vision? I dunno. Hope not!
                      Had dinner with brother and nephew tonight. As
                      average-smart readers they were in Such a Different
                      Place from us potter obsessives and devotees. Provided
                      a bit of perspective.
                      So, I’m going to try to respond with care to your
                      comments, and, again, invite others to the table.

                      nancy aronson <nancygaronson@...> wrote:
                      I find Dumbledore's instruction to have Harry include
                      Ron and Hermione interesting, and I wonder what you
                      make of it.

                      Hans:
                      My personal view of this is that the trio is the
                      essence of the alchemist. Harry is the
                      heart-sanctuary, Hermione the head-sanctuary and Ron
                      the pelvic sanctuary. When they are united they form
                      the complete personality of the alchemist, who cannot
                      achieve liberation without these three parts of
                      himself being in complete balance and harmony.
                      Dumbledore as the healing holy Spirit knows this.
                      Nancy:
                      Granger articulates the alchemy of the trio in the
                      following: (link from the Seeker site)
                      Hermione Granger’s name has an especially obvious
                      alchemical reference in it, as do several of the names
                      in the books. “Hermione” is the feminine form of
                      “Hermes,” who, besides being the Greek messenger god
                      (Mercury), was also the name of the great alchemist
                      Hermes Trismegistos, in whose name countless
                      alchemical works were written through the centuries.
                      The alchemical work purifies a base metal by
                      dissolving and recongealing the metal using two
                      principal reagents or catalysts. These reagents
                      reflect the masculine and feminine polarities of
                      existence. “Alchemical sulfur” represents the
                      masculine, impulsive, and red pole, while
                      “quicksilver” or “alchemical mercury” represents the
                      feminine and cool complement. Together and separately
                      these reagents advance the base metal to gold.
                      Harry’s two closest friends are Ron Weasley, the
                      redheaded, passionate boy, and Hermione Granger, the
                      brilliant, cool young woman. They are also living
                      symbols of alchemical sulfur (Ron) and mercury
                      (Hermione). Together, and more obviously, in their
                      disagreements and separation, Harry’s friendships with
                      Ron and Hermione transform him from lead to gold.
                      Sulfur and quicksilver are frequently called “the
                      quarreling couple,” an apt name for Ron and Hermione.
                      When I read the above I was sold. It was just right.

                      Nancy from last post:
                      Also, Dumbledore's lessons with Harry inform your
                      argument. He keeps on showing Harry, over and over,
                      the difference between determination and free will,
                      between prophecy and choice. Is this his way of
                      helping Harry to understand his (Harry's) true nature
                      is that which you describe <capable of love, worthy of
                      this mission, able to focus on issues beyond himself>?

                      Hans:
                      I think Dumbledore's words are more directed at the
                      reader than Harry.
                      Nancy:
                      Why?

                      Nancy:
                      Harry is going to Godric's Hollow (instead of
                      Hogwarts) in search of the horcruxes.
                      Hans:
                      Sorry to be pedantic, but I don't think Harry's
                      expecting to find any Horcruxes there. He's just
                      making it the beginning of his journey as this is
                      where it all started for him. He's probably hoping for
                      clues there.
                      Nancy:
                      No need to apologize. I invite pedantic comments and
                      certainly make enough of them myself. I admire how
                      closely you’ve read/listened to the books.
                      I do find it interesting that horcruxes are associated
                      with murder, Voldemort was marking this opponent as
                      his enemy --- I can see how people would regard
                      godric’s hollow as a perfect opportunity to whip up a
                      horcrux. Perhaps that would reduce the number to 6,
                      given that V didn’t anticipate being blown away by the
                      boy.

                      Hans:
                      I'm not saying your conclusions are wrong here, but I
                      think there is a deeper foundation beneath all this. I
                      did some posts about Neville Longbottom a while back.
                      See Neville's explanation on the website. This may
                      sound crazy to some people, but liberating Alchemy
                      teaches that many of the organs of the body play a
                      vital role in the alchemical processes.… God knocks on
                      the medulla oblongata, as the door to the heart
                      sanctuary, three times. The first time he knocks as
                      the Father, making the person concerned a seeker.
                      Valky pointed out that it is Neville who dropped the
                      remembrall, setting in motion the actions that led to
                      Harry being made Seeker by McGonagall.
                      N:
                      Oh, so harry receives the Fatherly knock due to
                      Neville’s vulnerability and overall ineptitude. Toad,
                      ball, whatever: N has great difficulty keeping it
                      together.
                      H:
                      The second time God knocks he knocks as the Son. This
                      is the birth of the New Soul. This is obviously just
                      after the medulla has let the Son in, symbolised by
                      the birth of Neville.
                      N:
                      Are you implying Father knock: when Harry’s 11; Son
                      knock: when Harry’s minus a day old; third time: when
                      Harry is born


                      i don't have time for the rest, for now. thanks, hans!

                      sleepy,
                      nga

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                    • saraquel_omphale
                      Saraquel: Thank you Hans for your warm welcome post. I m afraid it has taken about 4 days to put together these two posts, so the conversation has moved on
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 29, 2005
                        Saraquel:

                        Thank you Hans for your warm welcome post. I'm afraid it has taken
                        about 4 days to put together these two posts, so the conversation
                        has moved on since Valky's first post in this thread, but hopefully
                        this will be relevant still.

                        First, as always, Valky, I do love your Snape posts! I usually find
                        the irresistible force meets immovable object debates over Snape
                        quite daunting. I have been like the proverbial bouncing ferret,
                        finding the arguments for both sides so convincing. I think it's
                        been appealing to my Libran rising sign - wonderful idea, but on the
                        other hand … Until finally, I thought that I really must make the
                        effort to get off the fence as regards Snape, so I've been doing
                        some thinking too and although I am as virtually 100% sure as one
                        can be (forgive the grammar, you get the gist), that our thoughts on
                        Redeemed!Snape will coincide in a big bang in book 7, although, how
                        we get there may differ slightly. What follows is me trying to work
                        through a Snape scenario, it may well have glaring holes – please
                        feel free to pick at them:-)

                        This is going to be a loooong post, but I hope you will bear with
                        me, because having set the groundwork in this post, I'm going to
                        discuss how the scene has been set for some "kick-ass redemption" in
                        my next post. (Valky asked me to expand on this phrase, so blame
                        her :-) )

                        First, a little character analysis, which focuses on an area that I
                        haven't seen highlighted for its own sake: the world that Snape
                        wants to live in, policitcally, in order to fulfil his dream.
                        Contrary to some people, I do not think Snape wants to become the
                        Ruler of the World, I think he likes the solitary life too much –
                        his books (When I read the chapter that described his house, I just
                        thought, how many houses have I been in like that, friends not into
                        money, but loving knowledge) his study and his creative
                        inventiveness. Witness his first speeches to Harry's class about
                        both potions and DADA. This is an academic, a man appreciative of
                        and in love with knowledge. In my mind he is a research wizard, and
                        perhaps before becoming a teacher, he worked in the Department of
                        Mysteries – I think the Room of Brains would have been his bag, he
                        likes things pickled in jars, and he is fascinated by the power of
                        logical and reasoned thought (The potions puzzle in PS.).

                        Further to that idea, what Snape loves is the Power of Knowledge. I
                        think that he is a morally ambivalent man. Like Voldemort, it is
                        not good and bad that is important to him, but power. The power
                        that lies behind actions, just as electricity lies behind so much of
                        our world. To me, Snape is interested in which side can wield the
                        most power. Is power harnessed to good a victor over power harnessed
                        to evil? I think, probably up until PoA, he has an almost detached
                        interest in (I don't mean he is emotionally detached), and academic
                        view of the contest.

                        But he has practical experience of living on both sides, and he has
                        come to appreciate the advantages of being under DD's wing. His
                        life has been one of better quality and freedom than it was with the
                        DEs. As a young man, he perceived the apparent power of evil over
                        good, but now he is watching, to learn the power of good over evil.

                        In his past he has appreciated the power and beauty of the dark arts
                        (that may seem an odd word, but the subtley of the dark arts also
                        have their own dark beauty, and Snape can appreciate that.) He
                        needs that past in order, in the future, to be able to choose. The
                        more powerful and seductive the `evil' past is, the more powerful
                        the choice for `good' in the present.

                        What is Snape's dream? To research both the DA and DADA. This to me
                        is his raison d'etre in life – to investigate the Power of Truth as
                        it manifests in knowledge and to learn to be at one with it, to use
                        it. I think, as an academic, Snape knows that this power is greater
                        than him – IMO he does not seek to master it, as Voldemort does, but
                        to serve it. What is his boggart – I think something along the lines
                        of finding out that he has chosen the "wrong side". I don't just
                        mean that literally, in terms of Voldemort vs DD, but that he has
                        not understood deeply enough and is backing the wrong theory. He is
                        not afraid because of anything that might happen to him, Snape, as
                        he points out to Harry, is not a coward, but because he desperately
                        needs to Know the Truth. Imagine the devastation of an academic who
                        has spent his whole life researching and believing something which
                        is subsequently proven false. I don't know if I've made this clear,
                        I hope so.

                        Valky wrote:
                        >Snape knows what the Dark Lord is going to feel when Harry takes
                        >him down, because he has felt it himself, the force of it knocked
                        >him flying across the room and scattered his well trained mind out
                        >into the ether. The thing is that Snape does not run and hide from
                        >this magic. He goes back without a seconds hesitation, for more and
                        >he spends his every quiet second the next year hoping to catch
                        >another glimpse. Clearly Snape is not evil or he could not bear to
                        >see or feel Harrys ;D *Sirius* Magic. Rather he is hungry for it
                        >very hungry.

                        Absolutely agree Valky - This is where Voldemort and Snape differ.
                        Snape does not think he has the world taped, like Voldemort. Snape
                        glories in the mystery of the world and its unravelling. Voldemort
                        is trapped by his viewpoint and insistence on maintaining his world
                        view at all costs. Snape has a mind which is always open, and that
                        is one reason why he's so going to get redeemed. (If JKR doesn't
                        redeem him, I'm so going to throw a wobbly and spit the dummy,
                        before I marvel at how she has finished her story.)

                        So, to sumarise, IMO, what Snape wanted/probably still wants, most
                        of all, is a world where he can be as inventive and creative as he
                        wants in both the dark arts and Defence against the dark arts and
                        GET RESPECT for it. Who he sides with, depends on who can give him
                        this most effectively.

                        There is a big chunk of Snape story missing between the discovery of
                        the prophecy and Godric's Hollow. Was he involved in the cave? (In
                        my reckoning he's the only character (maybe Lily or James) who had
                        the ability to overcome the obstacles in the cave, I don't believe
                        RAB did it alone and I'm not convinced about Kreacher. I think he's
                        a strong contender, but I'm not fixed on that.) What exactly was his
                        reason for going to DD? Was it real remorse? Was it just an act to
                        get him in as a spy?

                        For whatever unfathomed reason in my intuition, I don't think Snape
                        is either, a willingly reformed character or still a secret DE. I
                        think he is for the first 5 books, unwillingly with DD. If DD would
                        let him research DA and DADA, he would be happy, but that dearest of
                        dreams is denied him. I think that something in the story forced
                        him into DDs arms, and that was not LVs order to spy, but I'm not at
                        all convinced that, given a chance for a dark arts world, he
                        wouldn't jump at it (sorry double negative there).

                        Essentially, to me, Snape is torn between his preference for
                        DDs `democratic' (for want of a better word) world over LVs
                        autocracy and his desire for the mysteries of the dark arts. He has
                        no allegiance to Voldemort (though the exact reason why IMO still
                        remains a mystery).

                        I was really interested, Valky, in your year by year analysis, as
                        I'd been doing something very similar myself, so here's my slightly
                        different version.

                        Valky wrote:
                        >If there is a power to defeat Voldemort, then that he will learn
                        >that power too. Without knowing any more of the prophecy, he cannot
                        >logically conclude that Harry (or Neville) will ever be able to
                        >wield this power. So he applies the next rational choice. Ensure
                        >for himself that He can use it. Then what does it matter if Harry
                        >or Neville are incompetent boobs, waste not want not..

                        Saraquel:

                        Year 1:
                        Absolutely agree with you here about his desire to learn about the
                        power, but as I hope you've picked up, I differ a little on the
                        motives. I think it perfectly possible that Snape is not sure about
                        Voldemort's death. He may at this point still think that the
                        prophecy has been fulfilled, in which case his immediate interest is
                        in the power that did it. However, the break-in at Gringott's has
                        put everyone on their guard.

                        Bearing this in mind, he is waiting for Potter to arrive at school,
                        because, as he said in Spinners End, he wonders if Potter will be
                        the one to take up Voldemort's baton and provide him with the world
                        he wants and the job he wants, or alternatively/or as well as fulfil
                        the terms of the prophecy. Remember, DD has offered him a lot, but
                        he has denied him his dream of researching DA and DADA. If it turns
                        out to be true that Harry Potter is a Voldemort in waiting, he's
                        struck gold. He is his teacher and has a chance to mould and
                        influence him. Then he would be in the position of a Machiavelli to
                        Medici, something he knows very well how to do and I think, Snape
                        would prefer to be Machiavelli rather than Medici.

                        Now let's get Harry to school and the all important Sorting. Harry
                        is sorted into Gryffindor - almost definitive proof for Snape, that
                        Harry is not going to be what Snape had hoped. Harry is in his
                        father's house, looks like his father and will almost certainly be
                        like his father. Snape's heart is in his boots. Because of his life
                        debt to James, he is now probably bound to protect his `enemy'. At
                        this point, he starts to hate Harry for being his burden and not his
                        liberator. No wonder, that during the feast that follows this
                        happens.

                        UK ed PS p94 "The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell's turban
                        straight into Harry's eyes – and a sharp, hot pain shot across the
                        scar on Harry's forehead. <snip> The pain had gone as quickly as it
                        had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had got from
                        the teacher's look – a feeling that he didn't like Harry at all."

                        The pain in his scar was Quirrellmort, but the look straight into
                        his eyes was IMO, legilimens Snape, trying to establish just what
                        was in Harry's head and why he was sorted into Gryffindor. Snape
                        grills Harry in their first potions lesson, and finds, to his
                        twisted satisfaction, that Harry doesn't have a clue. Definitely
                        not a promising start for Snape's hopes, they are now in all
                        probability dashed forever. As you said Valky, "The Potter boy is as
                        mediocre a wizard as ever his father was, he cannot even defend
                        against Quirrel's chanted curse."

                        So Snape, is still secretly holding out for a dark side victory as
                        his only chance. But I think he is pulled in two directions, if he
                        can get what he wants from DD, he'll take it, otherwise, Voldemort
                        could still be a possibility. He is playing a delicately balanced
                        game. If Voldemort is in the mix somewhere, as the attempt on the
                        PS might imply, if his powers were damaged by the Godric's Hollow
                        incident, is there still a chance that his old followers could
                        govern in his name.

                        If so, in Snape's opinion, Quirrel would not be the one to do it,
                        yes Snape would see Quirrel as unworthy, as he tells Bella and
                        Cissi. But Lucius Malfoy might just swing it. Now this is the
                        perfect ending for Snape – it will give him the world he wants. A
                        weakened Voldemort, who is unable to personally enforce his cruelty
                        (which he is quite happy to do on his followers as well as his
                        enemies), but whose name still brings people to their knees and from
                        whom Snape can still learn about the dark arts. With the real power
                        in the hands of the man who Snape has been b…nosing for quite some
                        time, and who will give him anything he wants – Lucius Malfoy. Yes,
                        Snape will be back in the Department of Mysteries at the snap of
                        Malfoy's fingers. Back with the big boys, head of his own little
                        new department of research into the Dark Arts, on the cutting edge
                        of knowledge and away from the tedium of incompetent and
                        dunderheaded young minds.

                        Now onto CoS.
                        Valky wrote: "The next year Snape tries from the start to make Harry
                        go away."
                        As I see it, he wants to prevent Harry from getting an education
                        which would prepare him to defeat Voldemort. In a weakened state,
                        as I'm sure Snape thinks Voldemort is, Snape thinks there is a
                        possibility that Voldemort would be unable to defeat Harry. So by
                        stopping Harry from being able to defeat Voldemort, Snape still has
                        a chance of getting what he wants and keeping the prophecy
                        unfulfilled.

                        That Lucius and Snape had a relationship this early – it is only
                        confirmed in OotP – is unknown, but I think a case to say that they
                        did is fairly easy to put together. I won't go into detail, but the
                        fact that Snape starts off with a noted preference for Malfoy is a
                        good indicator.

                        According to DD, Lucius did not know the diary was a Horcrux, but
                        knew that it had the power to open the Chamber of Secrets, then if
                        Snape knew anything about it, that is what he would know. If Snape
                        was in on the plot, which I think highly likely, then Lucius would
                        have told him who had the diary, and a truly reformed Snape would
                        have arranged for it to have been "regrettably" found. Regrettably,
                        because with Voldemort known to be still on the loose, DD would want
                        Snape in a position to spy if he ever came back.

                        What is the purpose of the diary for Snape – not to rid the school
                        of `mudbloods', but to rid it of DD and give Snape an opportunity to
                        get to where he wants to be, at the moment – DADA teacher.

                        Admittedly there is the problem of the curse and whether Sanpe knew
                        about it. I'm not taking that one into account here and it could be
                        the downfall of my thinking!

                        Valky wrote:
                        >He sends a Snake at Harry in the duelling club, but to his dismay
                        >all Harry can muster is a bit of Parseltongue. The students, easily
                        >impressed as they are, get a kick out of it. But Snape is far from
                        >overwhelmed, what can Parseltongue do to Voldemort ?

                        Saraquel:
                        Now I disagree with you there Valky. I think Harry's ability to
                        speak parseltongue was of great interest to Snape.

                        CoS p146 "Snape stepped forward, waved is wand and the snake
                        vanished in a small puff of black smoke. Snape, too, was looking at
                        Harry in an unexpected way: it was a shrewd and calculating look,
                        and Harry didn't like it."

                        Well now that's very interesting, thinks Snape, maybe all hope is
                        not lost. Maybe this boy does have possibilities after all.

                        Interestingly, Snape is not present at the denouement of CoS and
                        therefore cannot make the connections that DD makes about the
                        difference between a memory and a horcrux.

                        I've nothing really to say about Snape in the third book, it is more
                        concerned with unveiling his connections to the Marauders.

                        However, in book 4 things really begin to hot up for Snape. He
                        knows Voldemort's power is returning. This is not a scenario he
                        wants, but as the year progresses, Voldemort's ownership of him
                        becomes increasingly visible.

                        For the first time, Snape is facing choices between sides here. The
                        dark mark is steadily revealing increasing power, Voldemort is not
                        the weakened object he had been hoping for. Having spent a long time
                        with Voldemort, I think Snape knows he cannot defeat a fully
                        functional, re-empowered Dark Lord. He's good, but he's not that
                        good. DD approaches him to discuss whether he would be willing to be
                        a spy in the event of Voldemort returning to full power. Snape is
                        faced with having to work out how to stay alive here. If he doesn't
                        go back to Voldemort, he's dead for sure – hunted down as a
                        deserter.

                        When pestered by Karkaroff, he doesn't want to discuss it.
                        Karkaroff is all for deserting, Snape can't let him know what he is
                        thinking, because of the danger of Karkaroff being captured and
                        tortured. For the first time Snape has a taste of what being a
                        double agent is really going to mean, and he is distressed. Everyone
                        wants to know where he stands, DD, Crouch!Moody, Karkaroff – the
                        pressure is on. Pulled and pushed by all around him, Snape decides
                        to try and fulfil all possibilities. As an out for himself Snape,
                        with a foot in both camps, keeping both sides sweet. It's
                        frightening and distressing, but by the time DD sends him back to
                        Voldemort, Snape has come to terms and prepared his story, like a
                        good academic that he is, he has made his `theory' as watertight as
                        he can before publication.

                        OotP
                        In Snape terms, I agree Valky, this is a turning point. The book
                        opens with Snape re-established in Voldemort's camp, glorying in the
                        attention from the Order, but careful not to mix too much – he never
                        hangs around or stays for dinner – and I don't think this is just to
                        protect his cover with Voldemort. He is also, still well in with
                        Lucius Malfoy.

                        Then DD gives him the task of giving Harry occlumency lessons, and
                        the incident which you have so expertly pinpointed, Valky, arises. I
                        needn't say much to add to your wonderful insight, just that, for
                        the first time Snape really sees that there is something very
                        powerful going on in Harry, and it's not dark. It's powerful enough
                        to conquer the dark art of legilimency – one of Voldemort's most
                        special powers. Maybe there is something to the prophecy after all,
                        maybe this kid Harry does have real power, maybe there is a chance
                        that he could conquer Voldemort. Oh yes, I agree, he's very
                        interested, and he wants to learn more. He wants to know just how
                        much power there is in this sort of magic – is there enough?
                        Perhaps for the first time his interest in the side of good is not
                        just about personal freedoms, it's about his most treasured thing –
                        Knowledge.

                        From this point on, Snape is being pulled very strongly over to the
                        good side. If it has real power, and something to offer in terms of
                        knowledge, then it will be worth being in that world. But there is
                        still the deep imprint of his past. As Hans has pointed out with
                        insight,

                        Hans wrote:
                        >In this context Snape is our own past of occult experimentation, of
                        >self-aggrandisement, of seeking eternal life for the self, which is
                        >essentially just a temporary phenomenon. This is why Jo makes Snape
                        >a "past" Death Eater. When we go the Path of Alchemical Liberation
                        >we have this past in us as a living force, as a tendency to go down
                        >a well-worn, steep, slippery slope, and to be an
                        >individual, "aligned neutral", as Valky says.

                        So the final battle for Snape's soul begins.

                        HBP
                        Snape is still not convinced. He needs to keep proving himself with
                        Voldemort until he can be sure he is making the right choice. He
                        gives Voldemort, Emeline Vance. Then DD comes to him with his hand
                        after destroying the Horcrux!Ring. (There's a whole diversion I
                        could go on here, about how much Snape knows about Horcurxes but
                        that's not for this post.) Suffice to say, I think Snape knows that
                        Voldemort had made a Horcrux, and guesses that DD has destroyed
                        one. Here is more proof of the ability of DD's side to triumph over
                        Voldemort's. Snape is beginning to be convinced. Then just when
                        he's being won over, bang, he falls for Narcissa's vow. He doesn't
                        tell DD about the last part.

                        OK, Not to make this too long <g> as the year goes on Snape makes
                        his decision. This is extremely important for him. He is
                        desperate, caught in a web of his own making, and he is going to
                        come down on DDs side. He wants out of the danger now, and goes to
                        DD and asks to be extricated from Voldemort's camp, it is no longer
                        beneficial for him personally to be with the other side. But when he
                        asks, DD says no and they have a row. DD wants Snape to find out a
                        lot more about Nagini for him. The investigation in his own house
                        is not Slytherin, but Spinners End, where Pettigrew is currently in
                        residence.

                        Snape is angry and resentful and frightened, just when he has
                        decided to go for the good side, DD has let him down, big time. Now
                        he needs to know more about Harry's power and how to use it. Then
                        Harry hands him a gift – he uses dark magic again on Malfoy, and
                        Snape now has the golden opportunity to investigate further. No
                        expulsion this time – Harry is valuable. (Thank you Valky)

                        To cut to the end – when Snape arrives on the tower, he sees his
                        hopes in ruins. DD is going to die, whether he kills him or not.
                        With DDs death, Snape sees the collapse of the good side. Whatever
                        power Harry has it is not enough in Snape's eyes to carry the day.
                        He feels almost betrayed by DD, for letting himself be caught like
                        this. Snape knows the consequence of his vow and knows that he is
                        going to have to kill DD. He does it with hatred, because he had
                        finally decided to back DD and then DD `betrayed' the faith Snape
                        had in him. Now, his decision has been made for him, and he is
                        going back to Voldemort. He does it with revulsion, because it is
                        not what he actually wants to do at that moment but he knows that
                        now he must embrace his dark side again, sitting ready and waiting
                        inside him.

                        OK, so there you have it, I think that the last part of the scenario
                        needs more thought on my side and I might change my mind here, I
                        would be really interested to see what everyone makes of it.

                        In my next post I'm going to discuss how this impacts on thoughts
                        about redemption and Snape. Sorry this is sooooo loooong!
                        Saraquel
                      • saraquel_omphale
                        The reason why I have set up the interpretation that I have, about Snape in my previous post, is because I believe that Redemption is central to Christian
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 29, 2005
                          The reason why I have set up the interpretation that I have, about
                          Snape in my previous post, is because I believe that Redemption is
                          central to Christian faith. The concept that there is a possibility
                          of redemption for everyone, *regardless* of what their previous
                          actions have been. If JKR wants redemption to have kick-ass power,
                          she needs to have a character who really **needs**
                          redemption/salvation. It seems to me that Snape has been set up to
                          be that character. He is truly nasty, and has performed many
                          unforgivable actions, not only in the past, but now in front of us
                          in HBP.

                          Ok let's think about the Christian theme of redemption and what is
                          required in someone to accept it. I assume when I'm posting that not
                          everyone is aware of Christian theology, so I do tend to explain
                          things quite thoroughly. However, I'm aware that I'm posting to a
                          group knowledgeable in things spiritual and I have no desire to
                          patronise, so if this sort of explanation is unnecessary *please*
                          someone tell me!

                          Central to Christian faith is the idea that because of the fall of
                          Adam Eve which introduced original sin, we are all in need of
                          redemption and salvation. One of the effects of original sin was to
                          introduce death into the world, as well as pain, toil and life
                          pretty much as we find it now :-) But God is merciful, and through
                          his son, Jesus Christ, he has offered a road to salvation. If you
                          accept this and truly follow it with your heart, God will have mercy
                          and forgiveness and save you from not only original sin, but also
                          any sins which you have performed in your life, *whatever* they are.
                          This includes heinous crimes.

                          The reward for this, is everlasting life and closeness to God.
                          Damnation is eternal separation from God, which means everlasting
                          despair and pain, in the fires of hell. The prerequisite for
                          redemption is acknowledgement of your sin, repentance and atonement.

                          As I write this, it is becoming clearer to me that there are steps
                          to salvation, and redemption is one of them – in itself it is not
                          salvation. You can in some way, redeem *yourself*, but you cannot
                          save *yourself*, only forgiveness and acceptance by God can save you.

                          Redemption is payback time. It requires that you have realisation of
                          the significance of your evil actions, and that you deeply
                          understand and acknowledge them to be *wrong* and realise why they
                          are wrong. This is repentance. Once you have realised this, you need
                          to perform right action from that point on. This is atonement. I
                          would say that repentance and atonement together give you redemption
                          in the eyes of others and in the eyes of yourself. However, there
                          is no redeeming oneself from original sin. No actions on our part
                          can ever overcome that, nothing we do can ever give us eternal life,
                          that is the gift of God as the redeemer of original sin on our
                          behalf through Jesus.

                          Hence, looked at from the Christian standpoint, this is why
                          Voldemort's search for immortality is so evil.

                          The fact that God has given you the instruction manual, in the form
                          of Jesus' life, is a sign of his blessing, mercy and forgiveness.
                          If you can follow this in practice, then God has promised to give
                          you the prize of salvation and eternal life.

                          The other side of redemption is forgiveness of yourself and from
                          others, for past actions. Now, to me, the love involved in
                          forgiveness is not a soft love, it is part of Last Judgement Love.
                          It is also a love very tied to understanding and the intellect.

                          Real forgiveness IMO is *not* patting someone's head and saying,
                          there there, it's all right now, let's pretend that never happened,
                          shall we? This does not strike me as an appropriate response to say,
                          an act of murder. Sins, are called sins because they are actions
                          which cause *real* damage, not just to the self, but to others. One
                          cannot just *pretend* they never happened and wipe the slate clean.

                          Christianity asks that its followers forgive and forget. Anyone who
                          has had a traumatic experience imposed on them by someone else knows
                          that it is impossible to forget that thing. It happened, it changed
                          you and the results of those changes stay with you. So I don't
                          think that we can take this is the ordinary sense of the words. I
                          think that what it involves is a letting go of blame. A lifting of
                          oneself out of victimhood.

                          If there is a desire for vengeance, or a feeling of blame, then this
                          forms a bond between the victim and the abusing individual and ties
                          them to each other. Free will is sacrificed and both are tied to
                          the past forever. This works for both sides. The abuser often
                          blames the abused for `making them do it' or `asking for it'. The
                          important thing as Hans and Valky have been saying, is to take
                          responsibility for yourself and act correctly in the present.

                          In other words, wherever you are is OK, however damaged, and however
                          enmeshed in evil, just engage your free will and act correctly in
                          the present. To free your will from the influence of the past and
                          break the bond between you and whoever has shown you past wrongs, is
                          in my opinion, what it means to forgive. In doing this, you also
                          free the other person from their debt/enmeshment to you, they can no
                          longer hold you responsible for their actions or their pain. To
                          forget, is what happens when your actions are no longer based on the
                          past – the past is no longer relevant to how you behave.

                          I think the role of love in this, is that it cannot be done without
                          it. To break free means to change negative feelings to positive, to
                          have love for the self, and dissolve the negative emotions – shame,
                          anger etc etc and set yourself free. To set someone else free, is
                          to have mercy on them, which is a form of love. When there are no
                          longer bonds tying you together, you can be free to feel whatever
                          you wish towards that other person. Divine love can act as a mirror,
                          in which one sees oneself in the light of Truth, and has blinding
                          realisation. This love both burns away pain but also provides
                          hope/joy and illuminates freedom. Valky's post, where she describes
                          watching a film of all your sins, I thought was a brilliant
                          analogy. To me relisation is watching that whole film in one second
                          (no time to get up and walk out half sway through :-) )

                          I've always felt deeply moved by Jesus' saying on the cross "Father,
                          forgive them, for they know not what they do." It just highlights
                          so poignantly, that ignorance binds us to pain and suffering, in so
                          many ways. The path to redemption and salvation, has to begin with a
                          drawing back of the curtain so that the individual can see
                          themselves and the results of their actions – in other words,
                          realisation.

                          Both Harry and Snape are in need of some realisation. Harry's
                          thirst for vengeance is tying him to the past, and his anger is
                          leading in dangerous directions – he has tried to use the crucio
                          curse 3 times now, once on Bellatrix and twice on Snape. If he is
                          going to be able to choose the all important right action over the
                          easy action he is going to have to deal with this – I wrote about
                          this in my choices post.

                          Harry has to learn big time, to have faith in love and I think that
                          he will learn about the events at Godric's Hollow, and see for
                          himself the power of love demonstrated by his mother. He may also
                          find out something about Snape which will help him – I don't know,
                          but Snape's greasy nose seems to get into everything. When he next
                          meets Snape he is going to be absolutely torn between hatred and
                          understanding, and IMO, it is this meeting which will enable him to
                          prepare himself for his meeting with Voldemort.

                          Now for Snape. I think JKR deliberately showed us a Snape capable
                          of killing DD in cold blood, and I wonder if we are actually going
                          to find any mitigating circumstances for that. In Valky's version
                          of Snape, we see an already redeemed Snape to some extent. His
                          remorse was real and he has been on DDs side for a long time. In my
                          version, we see an absolutely unredeemed Snape, but, someone who is
                          open to redemption. Someone who is able to be open to the power of
                          love.

                          At that moment, when Last Judgement Love hits you, you have a
                          choice. Go with it, abandon yourself to it and allow it to change
                          you, like an alchemical process, and emerge purified. Or, resist
                          it, hold onto your limited beliefs, and perish with them. I don't
                          that there is a third option. I hope that I have argued well enough
                          for you to accept that Snape could belong to the former category,
                          whereas Voldemort, is absolutely in the latter category. This why
                          IMO Vldemort is for eternal damnation and Snape is for redemption.

                          To me, if Snape is already redeemed, but was forced by some
                          agreement with Dumbledore to kill him, then all that is involved in
                          Harry and Snape's next meeting is a plot twist. JKR, just has to
                          manufacture an opportunity for them to converse and for Snape to
                          explain. If Harry is convinced, all we have seen is that Harry got
                          it wrong again.

                          However, if Snape is at the moment, unredeemed, then something more
                          substantial is going to have to happen at their next meeting. This
                          would give JKR the opportunity to have Harry choose love over
                          vengeance and for Snape to choose redemption. This would provide a
                          bigger bang factor – but hey, I don't know what JKR has in mind
                          here :-)

                          So, if I'm right, it seems to me that the plot of the book has been
                          set up for Snape to have realisation and repentance at the same time
                          that Harry has realisation and forgiveness. I am wondering if in
                          fact Harry saves Snape from something – yes I did mean it that way
                          round, I think the return favour will come later.

                          It occurs to me that Harry is going to discover something at
                          Godric's Hollow that gives him some insight on Snape and the power
                          of love, as shown through Lily's sacrifice. And he will realise
                          what is the right choice over the easy choice. His attitude to
                          Snape will change, but he will then be isolated from the other
                          members of the Order, who now distrust Snape. So our hero will be
                          alone in this action.

                          Through Harry's action of saving Snape, Snape will realise the power
                          of love that DD was talking about, but Snape never saw for himself.
                          When he sees it, he will realise why Harry is special and go through
                          his own process of realisation, which will probably result in his
                          sacrificing himself in some way.

                          So what do you think? Now that I've got all that down, I feel
                          somewhat relieved of a burden. I think a few less wordy posts might
                          be in order.

                          Saraquel
                          Who ponders what JKR has in mind when Harry reminds us in HBP, that
                          somewhere DD had said to him evil is never really destroyed, the
                          battle goes on and you have to keep on fighting it. Anyone know the
                          cannon reference – I'll have to go and look for it again, myself.
                        • M.Clifford
                          ... Valky again adding a thought to this post: This all has reminded me of the baptism of Jesus in the Gospels. When Jesus approaches John and asks for a
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 30, 2005
                            --- In harrypotterforseekers@yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford"
                            <Aisbelmon@h...> wrote:

                            > Why does Harry use the Jinxes and Curse he has learned against the
                            > Inferi, rather than the circle of fire that Dumbledore told him to
                            > use. Well first I think it's in character for Harry to be a
                            > visual-kinetic learner, he's not exactly the *best* listener, so
                            > there's that. And also there is that he has liberated his mental ego
                            > in his past step, he has not yet liberated the emotional ego. ..edit...
                            > The HBP textbook throughout the HBP story is the object representing
                            > Harrys being able to work with a liberated mental ego. THe HBP is an
                            > innovative outside the box thinker, a liberated mental ego. Harry
                            > absorbs the Princes words easily and naturally. He feels affinity
                            ...edit....
                            > The Sectumsempra curse is Harrys
                            > effort to use his liberated mental ego to overcome the eons of
                            > sadness. This is a sign of his faith, not his lack of it. It awakens
                            > the Holy Spirit Dumbledore who protects Harrys spark with fire,
                            > Dumbledore liberates the emotional ego of the fallen world, and it
                            > is Harry's faith that calls him to do it.


                            Valky again adding a thought to this post:

                            This all has reminded me of the baptism of Jesus in the Gospels.
                            When Jesus approaches John and asks for a baptism, John is confused -
                            he asks why should *I* baptise *you*, you are greater than me. This is
                            like the confusion we feel when Harry uses the Sectumsempra curse - we
                            ask why is Harry using that curse? Isn't he above it? He *knows* about
                            the fire. John believed Jesus would bring the baptism of fire, which
                            was greater than his baptism of water, so this parrallel is uncanny.

                            Why the, does Jesus ask for a baptism by water? The question of why
                            this should happen, why does Jesus use the lesser tool of faith, is
                            somewhat parrallel to Harry using his lesser tool.
                            And like the Holy Spirit comes down to Jesus at the lake, Dumbledore
                            comes down and says that he is well pleased with Harry.

                            Hence I figure I have found the baptism that I was so certain I had
                            gotten a sense of in HBP Saraquel! Happy for me? ;D

                            And I also think that Harry's story has drawn a unique parallel
                            between the Gospel baptism of Jesus and the Liberation of the mental
                            and emotional egos.

                            Valky
                          • nancy aronson
                            ... Just to let you know, I am glad that you are writing in such detail, not only because I don t know much about Christian theology (or Jewish theology, for
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 30, 2005
                              --- saraquel_omphale <saraquel_omphale@...>
                              wrote:

                              > I assume when I'm
                              > posting that not
                              > everyone is aware of Christian theology, so I do
                              > tend to explain
                              > things quite thoroughly. However, I'm aware that
                              > I'm posting to a
                              > group knowledgeable in things spiritual and I have
                              > no desire to
                              > patronise, so if this sort of explanation is
                              > unnecessary *please*
                              > someone tell me!
                              >
                              Just to let you know, I am glad that you are writing
                              in such detail, not only because I don't know much
                              about Christian theology (or Jewish theology, for that
                              matter), but because you're writing clearly about a
                              subject of interest.

                              I have always found difficult to relate to people who
                              apologize for this sort of thing, or routinely claim
                              that they aren't making any sense. It's a form of
                              humility, a mode of bonding, that confuses me. I guess
                              HPfGU is so heavily populated that one might make the
                              case that to post in great detail might tax the
                              bandwidth. And I always have the perspective that if
                              we are gathered to discuss something and someone is
                              enthusiastic (and, hopefully, comprehensible) all the
                              better. even if incomprehensible to me, generally
                              others are connecting to the poster's ideas, and maybe
                              some day I'll catch up, seed has been planted, etc,
                              etc

                              You have contributed a lot to this group. I appreciate
                              your passion! Some posts are easier for me to
                              understand than others, but that's ok by me. In fact
                              it's a good thing. And hopefully the group has been
                              helpful as a place for you to gather and compose your
                              thoughts.

                              Thought you might be interested in this link:
                              www.seroquel.com

                              a little free association there,
                              nancy




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                            • Hans Andréa
                              Just to finish off my reply to Nancy s post. nancy aronson wrote: What do you make of harry’s decision to exploit HBP’s potions
                              Message 14 of 15 , Aug 30, 2005
                                Just to finish off my reply to Nancy's post.

                                nancy aronson <nancygaronson@...> wrote:
                                What do you make of harry’s decision to exploit HBP’s potions advice? Perhaps according to your theory it was to show that that sort of knowledge is unimportant.
                                 
                                Hans:
                                I'm afraid I haven't really got a theory about it yet. I guess it tells us that the New Soul, or in this case the seeker with a New Soul, should exercise extreme discrimination in what knowledge he should pay attention to. On the one hand the bezoar did save Ron's life, but on the other Harry made a big mistake in trying out the sectumsempra on Draco. I'm quite sure that if Harry had known it was Snape's book he wouldn't have used it. Later I may find a deeper meaning, but for now I'm satisfied to think that we are being warned to be discriminating. I think Harry will have learned a valuable lesson from the sectumsempra episode.
                                 
                                Nancy:
                                About your request for articles: occasionally I root around for is some sort of Jewish commentary on the Potterverse. Anyway, if I find anything good, you’ll be the first to know.
                                 
                                Hans:
                                Thanks, Nancy. I'm really interested in the Kabbalah and would love to see an article about Harry Potter and the Kabbalah. I do believe this book teaches the Path of Liberation, like all the great spiritual treasures of humanity.


                                "If I talk too freely about whether I believe in God I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling
                                -------------------------------------------
                                Hans Andréa


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