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Re: Waldner playing hardbat

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  • David
    It seems there s some considerable division in all of this. The U.S lads have a list of rubbers - so that s what happens there. As for France s view - I d say
    Message 1 of 40 , Jan 1, 2011
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      It seems there's some considerable division in all of this. The U.S lads have a list of rubbers - so that's what happens there.

      As for France's view - I'd say this would best come from Francis Leibenguth - who might like to make a comment here (AND about what the latest is regarding any proposed summer European hardbat tournament in Belgium). No good making a rather late announcement of dates for such, if people of some distance are considering attending, regardless of the other queries about 'own-bats' and rubber types.

      In the UK however, I have just discovered there are divisions within HEATT itself (the main hardbat area for Britain). These differences of opinion may have an unequal ratio - i.e. many more are said to prefer 'supplied bat' than 'use-your-own' with approved rubbers, but the differences of oppinion exist all the same. These differences led Fred Dove (tournament organiser for HEATT) to organise a hardbat tournament some time ago which was based on the 'bring-your-own' bat concept. But he says the amount of moaning and groaning from many of HEATT's competitors (about unfair advantage) was considerable, to the point he says he will never get involved in any such 'own-bat' event again.

      As a consequence, ALL HEATT hardbat tournaments will now be 'supplied bat' only. The bats used there are Dunlop Energy Alphas. These are readily available (£2.30 or so - UK price) and I have sent for a few already, out of curiosity. Fred insists they are not 'toy' rackets. Well, judgement can be reserved until the time of a look at them, though my gut feeling is that they can't be of good quality at that price. (I know the Sportcraft bats [I sent for six some time ago] are very poor. I also know that most hardbats used by clubs in the UK to play their one and only annual hardbat tournament are dire. They ARE in fact toys (no ifs and buts about it).

      So - it would appear that any hardbat tournaments held in the UK (by HEATT) will always require particpants to use the Dunlop Energy Alphas that HEATT supplies. I'm informed that not only is the case, but competitors may even be asked to swap bats with each other after each set - i.e. when ends or table are changed. I'm also told that even if a competitor turned up with his or her own Dunlop Energy Alpha (identical to the ones used at HEATT) he/she would not be allowed to use it because of concerns about the potential to use dubious glues etc. In other words, HEATT insist on ruling out the potential 'unfairness' at all times.

      Whether this sort of thing will also occur at events organised by Hardbat France and other European organisers - don't know. (Again, Francis' comments would be helpful). It seems the recent Holland tournament ran along the same lines as HEATT ones - i.e. they supplied the bat to everyone and no one's own bat was allowed. I'd suspect at this stage, this will be the definitive situation all across Europe in regard to hardbat.

      Whatever the rights and wrongs, hoos and haas are, about all of this, I'd guess that the U.S boys will be less keen to get involved in any event where they'd have to travel to Europe - especially if they end up having to use bats that turn out to be very questionable in quality. Fred does say however that attempts are being made in Europe to produce a new hardbat rubber (conforming very closely to 40s and 50s style manufacture) so maybe things will improve as and when this happens in terms of 'supplied rackets'(though everyone knows that production of same is far from straightforward and the continuity of such production is not necessarily an easy matter either. The other thing is there'd be little point in producing such a rubber (however good it turns out to be) if it's subsequently adhered to a poor quality blade. Costs of both good elements together are very considerable of course, which tempts racket suppliers to cut corners. If they're ever criticised subsequently (Fred for example - because he's mentioned this many times) they say that good players can win using a frying pan if they practice enough with it. (Meaning - a very poor bat perhaps).

      My own view is that I don't necessarily disagree with the supply of rackets at tournaments - I just oppose the use of ones that turn out to be poor of quality (if that's the case) and then being told that one has to practice more (with something that resembles a plank perhaps) and everything will be perfect. It would clearly be more perfect (pardon the contradition in the term pefect here) if a good rubber and blade were used, combined.

      David Hughes

      --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "peter" <kusangloob@...> wrote:
      >
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      > questions in regards to European tournament
      >
      >
      > sorry,
      >
      > im a bit confuse do they inform European players what kind of brand the hardbat rackets will be before the tournament?
      >
      > pete
      >
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      > --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "peter" <kusangloob@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > okay thanks jay for explaining a so called :
      > >
      > > LEVEL PLAYING FIELD !
      > >
      > > the bottoline for me is this." variants " ideas of playing table tennis is coming in, the concept. - and that is exactly my point !!!
      > >
      > > are we now becoming succesful in breaking the "mindset" of people , the public more so --- the sponger ??
      > >
      > > peter
      > >
      > > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "wturber" <jay@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > you mean jay
      > > > > that europe tournament provide players with rackets of the same type ?
      > > > > not about owning your own kind of hardbat jump to the tournament and after the tournament bring it back home with you?
      > > > >
      > > > > in america, you bring your own hardbat just as long as it conforms to the 11 kind of rubbers approved.
      > > > >
      > > > > pete
      > > >
      > > > I mean that there are multiple approaches. One of them is the so-called "level playing field" approach where everybody must use the same racket. I understand some events even have you turn in your racket after your match and you may get a different racket in your next match.
      > > >
      > > > Jay
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Neven Duzevic
      Yes! its thrue! ________________________________ From: gnopgnipster To: hardbat@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, January 2, 2011 11:30:34 AM
      Message 40 of 40 , Jan 3, 2011
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        Yes! its thrue!



        From: gnopgnipster <gnopgnipster@...>
        To: hardbat@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sun, January 2, 2011 11:30:34 AM
        Subject: [hardbat] Re: Waldner playing hardbat

         

        By "levelling the playing field" I was referring to the everyone plays with the same paddle principle.

        The reason there are fewer choppers today is not many are willing to put the time and training to become one, given that by 27 years of age you are washed up professionally (as far as competing for a world title). ITTF's attempts to level the playing field are all directed at China's state sponsor system and their (China) strangle-hold on table tennis as a result. At the 2003 World's the Chinese men were eliminated early (luck of the draw) and a chopper almost won (he should have except he lacked experience playing Europeans) finishing second. If you take China's state sponsor system out of international table tennis then you would see virtually every style flourish in international sponge competition.

        Longer rallies and diverse styles are possible in hardbat. However, to be a 2600 level chopper in hardbat today is almost impossible. Not because of the attackers using the rubbers in the USATT approved list, or modern attacking techniques. There were several different brands of rubber pre-1952 which included different size pips. Even Leyland had more than one type of rubber. When is the last time you saw someone train and play like Richard Bergmann? Probably never because the money is not there to support such a player. Bergmann was a modern chopper by today's sponge definition of a modern defender. He dominated table tennis against the best attackers in history, including you know who, until Bergmann became 28 years of age. At that point he started going down hill. Not because of training or the advent of sponge, but because of age.

        Now I know Ty is going to say that sandpaper is the solution. You can attack and chop until you drop. Well... Chopping is an art dependent on spin and spin variation. The lack of has historically resulted in the disappearance of that form of chopping. Take anti-spin chopping defence. When the two color rule came about it disappeared because when strong players saw the chops from the anti were high and had no spin they could easily flat kill them or drop them over the net for winners. In sandpaper I believe that chopping has no future in high level play. A strong attacker can easily drive back (away from the table) a strong chopper and either flat kill any high chop or just simply drop them over the net for a winner. Spin reduces those two possibilitites from happening in hardbat, thus in theory producing longer rallies.

        All of the above is premised on strong world class players. Not one strong and one with a beer-belly trying to chop.

        CHEERS!


        --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Lobo" <sgordon@...> wrote:
        >
        > "gnopgnipster" wrote:
        > > Correct me if I am wrong but the point of this
        > > "leveling of the playing field" is just an attempt
        > > to punish those who practice or play a lot, and
        > > bring them to the same level as those who don't.
        >
        > Absolutely not. By "leveling the playing field",
        > I'd like to think that we mean creating a game that
        > equally rewards offensive and defensive styles.
        > The current ITTF standards are not a level playing
        > field because the regulations heavily favor
        > attacking players.
        >


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