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Re: Backhand technique

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  • dnorman
    As I recall what Dick Miles said in his book, only two world class players developed effective backhand attacks...Barna and Sido...and they hit their backhands
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 1, 2010
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      As I recall what Dick Miles said in his book, only two world class players developed effective backhand attacks...Barna and Sido...and they hit their backhands completely differently. Then he said nothing about how those guys hit backhands or how anybody should try to hit a backhand. I have played a lot of not world class players who hit backhands very well. So I guess most of us should try to learn a backhand attack. I have noticed that players who rely mostly on a forehand attack and move to cover the whole table with their forehand, just block or slightly block/flip a ball on their backand and then step around quickly to hit forehands. Players with balanced attack who like to stay in the middle of the table and hit from both sides seem to make a pretty good arm swing, foreward and upward, with not so much wrist. I remember Tibor Hazi as hitting hard backhands and hardly ever stepping around to avoid a backhand. Marty Reisman and Bobby Gusikoff had very sharp backhand hits using mostly forearm rather than whole arm mostion. In fact Marty still does it.

      --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, David Kent <dwkent@...> wrote:
      >
      > The standard "backhand flick" is essentially all wrist. You snap the
      > paddle, twisting around the axis of the handle length, hitting the ball
      > with the half of the racquet (moving forward, obviously) on the thumb
      > (radial) side of the wrist as you supinate the wrist/hand. There is
      > practically no ball spin generated, just a flat hit, and the direction
      > the ball goes in is dependent on the timing of the hit, hence the
      > difficulty in achieving consistency, and the capacity for deception. In
      > the "flick", half of the racket face is going forward and half is going
      > backward, so the speed is dependent on how close to the edge of the
      > paddle face you contact the ball. Nearer the center line ( the extension
      > of the handle line) has less power. So this "flick" can have a lot of
      > power while the opponent (and frequently the hitter as well) has no clue
      > as to the direction or speed of the ball until he sees it coming.
      >
      > There is another wrist shot where the twist line axis is perpendicular
      > to the handle axis, and through the handle or base of the face, so all
      > of the paddle face is moving forward. This is a little easier, but less
      > deceptive, and more common, and this was usually not called a "flick",
      > rather a "punch" or a "slap" and usually involving more of the arm as
      > well. J-O Waldner used this a lot on the backhand in the sponge game.
      >
      > Dr Dave
      >
      > **************************
      >
      > Boneman wrote:
      > >
      > > Completely in concurrence with Jay and his sources. I find that
      > > blocks, chops and any defensive backhand strokes are more "arm"
      > > intensive. The lightning-fast wrist snap from hell.... whilst
      > > certainly involving the arm, it is the wrist that generates 75%... or
      > > even more... of the energy that's imparted on the ball.
      > >
      > > I developed that stroke naturally when I played sponge. Don't even
      > > recall putting any thought, effort or time into it, it just started to
      > > happen at one point in time. It was quite some time before I could use
      > > it effectively with the hardbat but when executed properly it's scary
      > > even from my side of the table. It usually elicits a look of utter
      > > bafflement from my opponent in most cases.
      > >
      > > Happy New Year!
      > >
      > > Larry "Boneman" Bone
      > > Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
      > > 80421
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Tandy Goldberg
      Shorter is better. Oh! Did I offend someone again? Charlatang
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 1, 2010
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        Shorter is better.

        Oh! Did I offend someone again?

        Charlatang

        On Friday, January 1, 2010, dnorman <wallyswoods@...> wrote:
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        > As I recall what Dick Miles said in his book, only two world class players developed effective backhand attacks...Barna and Sido...and they hit their backhands completely differently. Then he said nothing about how those guys hit backhands or how anybody should try to hit a backhand. I have played a lot of not world class players who hit backhands very well. So I guess most of us should try to learn a backhand attack. I have noticed that players who rely mostly on a forehand attack and move to cover the whole table with their forehand, just block or slightly block/flip a ball on their backand and then step around quickly to hit forehands. Players with balanced attack who like to stay in the middle of the table and hit from both sides seem to make a pretty good arm swing, foreward and upward, with not so much wrist. I remember Tibor Hazi as hitting hard backhands and hardly ever stepping around to avoid a backhand. Marty Reisman and Bobby Gusikoff had very sharp backhand hits using mostly forearm rather than whole arm mostion. In fact Marty still does it.
        >
        > --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com <hardbat%40yahoogroups.com>, David Kent <dwkent@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> The standard "backhand flick" is essentially all wrist. You snap the
        >> paddle, twisting around the axis of the handle length, hitting the ball
        >> with the half of the racquet (moving forward, obviously) on the thumb
        >> (radial) side of the wrist as you supinate the wrist/hand. There is
        >> practically no ball spin generated, just a flat hit, and the direction
        >> the ball goes in is dependent on the timing of the hit, hence the
        >> difficulty in achieving consistency, and the capacity for deception. In
        >> the "flick", half of the racket face is going forward and half is going
        >> backward, so the speed is dependent on how close to the edge of the
        >> paddle face you contact the ball. Nearer the center line ( the extension
        >> of the handle line) has less power. So this "flick" can have a lot of
        >> power while the opponent (and frequently the hitter as well) has no clue
        >> as to the direction or speed of the ball until he sees it coming.
        >>
        >> There is another wrist shot where the twist line axis is perpendicular
        >> to the handle axis, and through the handle or base of the face, so all
        >> of the paddle face is moving forward. This is a little easier, but less
        >> deceptive, and more common, and this was usually not called a "flick",
        >> rather a "punch" or a "slap" and usually involving more of the arm as
        >> well. J-O Waldner used this a lot on the backhand in the sponge game.
        >>
        >> Dr Dave
        >>
        >> **************************
        >>
        >> Boneman wrote:
        >> >
        >> > Completely in concurrence with Jay and his sources. I find that
        >> > blocks, chops and any defensive backhand strokes are more "arm"
        >> > intensive. The lightning-fast wrist snap from hell.... whilst
        >> > certainly involving the arm, it is the wrist that generates 75%... or
        >> > even more... of the energy that's imparted on the ball.
        >> >
        >> > I developed that stroke naturally when I played sponge. Don't even
        >> > recall putting any thought, effort or time into it, it just started to
        >> > happen at one point in time. It was quite some time before I could use
        >> > it effectively with the hardbat but when executed properly it's scary
        >> > even from my side of the table. It usually elicits a look of utter
        >> > bafflement from my opponent in most cases.
        >> >
        >> > Happy New Year!
        >> >
        >> > Larry "Boneman" Bone
        >> > Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
        >> > 80421
        >> >
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      • wturber
        In The Game of Table Tennis Miles spends a few pages on the backhand counter drive and has illustrations for two types. This can be found in Chapter 7
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 1, 2010
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          In "The Game of Table Tennis" Miles spends a few pages on the backhand counter drive and has illustrations for two types. This can be found in Chapter 7 "Other Strokes."

          He closes as follows:

          "The backhand attack, as I have been stressing, is more or less the underprivileged and ignored stroke in the game. This is probably the reason that among the world-class players we find such a disparity of style in hitting this shot. The particular strokes I have illustrated above represent a composite of shots rather than the ideal stroke if, indeed, there is such a thing. Both Sido and Barna , the world champions I previously mentioned, hit what seemed to be the ideal backhand drive - yet each hit the shot quite differently.

          The implicattion is that you can afford to be less rigid in learning this shot. Study the stroke I propose here and see if it works, but be prepared to experiment with small deviations too, for it may well be that you are the player destined to develop the ideal backhand. But don't bank on it. Table tennis is a forehand game as far as attack is concerned."

          For anyone learning hardbat, Dick Miles' book is a solid resource and it is easily found. You can find it at various online used book outlets in paperback for well less than $10.

          Jay Turberville
          www.jayandwanda.com
        • dnorman
          Jay, Yes, that is the bit I remember from Mile s book. I recall two players from the classic era who hit good backhand drives that were basically defensive
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 2, 2010
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            Jay,

            Yes, that is the bit I remember from Mile's book. I recall two players from the classic era who hit good backhand drives that were basically defensive chopper players. They didn't attempt to take control of the game by attacking, but invited the opponent to attack and they would chop every ball and try to win by waiting for the other guy to miss. But when the opponent was also a defensive chopper, the game was likely to be played under the expedite rule to stop a dull pushing marathon. Under expedite the serving player had to win the point after 12 hits or the point went to the other guy. Wayne Losh from Des Moines, Iowa, and Norbert Van Der Walle from Chicago each had explosive full body forehand and backhand topspin drives that they would unleash after several pushes. It was a win or lose shot, not likely to be returned if it hit the table. Especially since the opponent was close to the table and probably expecting another soft push. Wayne or Norbert were short guys who were pushing from a crouch position. Suddenly they would drop the paddle low, and uncoil with a big arm swing and body twist. There was upper arm, foreharm and wrist and a long follow through. Wayne won an expedite match against a chopping chizzler, and Norbert did the same against his Chicago practice partner Marvin Prager. In both cases the other guy had smooth topspin attacking shots, but no hard put away shots to win a point. Wayne and Norbert might win less than half the points when they attacked, but the other guys won almost no points when they attacked. Norbert also won a match against Marcel Monasterial who was using the thick white sponge before there were any bat rules. That sponge made such a fast block against a medium speed drive that the attacker would be making his follow through and see the block shot whiz past him. But Norbert's one shot explosion could avoid being blocked most of the time. Hardly anybody plays a hardbat chopping game that can force a hitter to push anymore, so this type of shot may not be useful these days. But it was beautiful to watch in the classic era.

            --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "wturber" <jay@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > In "The Game of Table Tennis" Miles spends a few pages on the backhand counter drive and has illustrations for two types. This can be found in Chapter 7 "Other Strokes."
            >
            > He closes as follows:
            >
            > "The backhand attack, as I have been stressing, is more or less the underprivileged and ignored stroke in the game. This is probably the reason that among the world-class players we find such a disparity of style in hitting this shot. The particular strokes I have illustrated above represent a composite of shots rather than the ideal stroke if, indeed, there is such a thing. Both Sido and Barna , the world champions I previously mentioned, hit what seemed to be the ideal backhand drive - yet each hit the shot quite differently.
            >
            > The implicattion is that you can afford to be less rigid in learning this shot. Study the stroke I propose here and see if it works, but be prepared to experiment with small deviations too, for it may well be that you are the player destined to develop the ideal backhand. But don't bank on it. Table tennis is a forehand game as far as attack is concerned."
            >
            > For anyone learning hardbat, Dick Miles' book is a solid resource and it is easily found. You can find it at various online used book outlets in paperback for well less than $10.
            >
            > Jay Turberville
            > www.jayandwanda.com
            >
          • H Bbb
            Ed, Chill!!!! Happy New Year Dude! Howard B. ________________________________ From: Tandy Goldberg To: hardbat@yahoogroups.com Sent:
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 2, 2010
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              Ed, Chill!!!!

              Happy New Year Dude!

              Howard B.


              From: Tandy Goldberg <gusikoff1959@...>
              To: hardbat@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, January 1, 2010 11:14:16 AM
              Subject: Re: [hardbat] Re: Backhand technique

              Shorter is better.

              Oh! Did I offend someone again?

              Charlatang

              On Friday, January 1, 2010, dnorman <wallyswoods@...> wrote:
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              >      As I recall what Dick Miles said in his book, only two world class players developed effective backhand attacks...Barna and Sido...and they hit their backhands completely differently.  Then he said nothing about how those guys hit backhands or how anybody should try to hit a backhand.  I have played a lot of not world class players who hit backhands very well.  So I guess most of us should try to learn a backhand attack.  I have noticed that players who rely mostly on a forehand attack and move to cover the whole table with their forehand, just block or slightly block/flip a ball on their backand and then step around quickly to hit forehands. Players with balanced attack who like to stay in the middle of the table and hit from both sides seem to make a pretty good arm swing, foreward and upward, with not so much wrist.  I remember Tibor Hazi as hitting hard backhands and hardly ever stepping around to avoid a backhand.  Marty Reisman and Bobby Gusikoff had very sharp backhand hits using mostly forearm rather than whole arm mostion.  In fact Marty still does it.
              >
              > --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com <hardbat%40yahoogroups.com>, David Kent <dwkent@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> The standard "backhand flick" is essentially all wrist. You snap the
              >> paddle, twisting around the axis of the handle length, hitting the ball
              >> with the half of the racquet (moving forward, obviously) on the thumb
              >> (radial) side of the wrist as you supinate the wrist/hand. There is
              >> practically no ball spin generated, just a flat hit, and the direction
              >> the ball goes in is dependent on the timing of the hit, hence the
              >> difficulty in achieving consistency, and the capacity for deception. In
              >> the "flick", half of the racket face is going forward and half is going
              >> backward, so the speed is dependent on how close to the edge of the
              >> paddle face you contact the ball. Nearer the center line ( the extension
              >> of the handle line) has less power. So this "flick" can have a lot of
              >> power while the opponent (and frequently the hitter as well) has no clue
              >> as to the direction or speed of the ball until he sees it coming.
              >>
              >> There is another wrist shot where the twist line axis is perpendicular
              >> to the handle axis, and through the handle or base of the face, so all
              >> of the paddle face is moving forward. This is a little easier, but less
              >> deceptive, and more common, and this was usually not called a "flick",
              >> rather a "punch" or a "slap" and usually involving more of the arm as
              >> well. J-O Waldner used this a lot on the backhand in the sponge game.
              >>
              >> Dr Dave
              >>
              >> **************************
              >>
              >> Boneman wrote:
              >> >
              >> > Completely in concurrence with Jay and his sources. I find that
              >> > blocks, chops and any defensive backhand strokes are more "arm"
              >> > intensive. The lightning-fast wrist snap from hell.... whilst
              >> > certainly involving the arm, it is the wrist that generates 75%... or
              >> > even more... of the energy that's imparted on the ball.
              >> >
              >> > I developed that stroke naturally when I played sponge. Don't even
              >> > recall putting any thought, effort or time into it, it just started to
              >> > happen at one point in time. It was quite some time before I could use
              >> > it effectively with the hardbat but when executed properly it's scary
              >> > even from my side of the table. It usually elicits a look of utter
              >> > bafflement from my opponent in most cases.
              >> >
              >> > Happy New Year!
              >> >
              >> > Larry "Boneman" Bone
              >> > Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
              >> > 80421
              >> >
              >> >
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            • kusangloob
              guys, talking about nice looking backhand ---- heres a stunning fact: even in using our sliperry liha racket here has surprising backhand it resembles
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 3, 2010
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                guys,


                talking about nice looking backhand ---- heres a stunning fact:

                even in using our "sliperry " liha racket here has surprising backhand
                it resembles the backhand of famous european "kreanga" and "primorac" counter backhand deadly drive and flick

                im not kidding. i myself was completely blown away when i saw this
                lately long practice by southern part of the philippines.

                i'll put this in youtube soon. seen in the latest nationwide liha tourney we just happen to finish here . these plays and strokes are all full of "charm"

                pete



                --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, H Bbb <spam.bad50@...> wrote:
                >
                > Ed, Chill!!!!
                >
                > Happy New Year Dude!
                >
                > Howard B.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Tandy Goldberg <gusikoff1959@...>
                > To: hardbat@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Fri, January 1, 2010 11:14:16 AM
                > Subject: Re: [hardbat] Re: Backhand technique
                >
                > Shorter is better.
                >
                > Oh! Did I offend someone again?
                >
                > Charlatang
                >
                > On Friday, January 1, 2010, dnorman <wallyswoods@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
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                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > As I recall what Dick Miles said in his book, only two world class players developed effective backhand attacks...Barna and Sido...and they hit their backhands completely differently. Then he said nothing about how those guys hit backhands or how anybody should try to hit a backhand. I have played a lot of not world class players who hit backhands very well. So I guess most of us should try to learn a backhand attack. I have noticed that players who rely mostly on a forehand attack and move to cover the whole table with their forehand, just block or slightly block/flip a ball on their backand and then step around quickly to hit forehands. Players with balanced attack who like to stay in the middle of the table and hit from both sides seem to make a pretty good arm swing, foreward and upward, with not so much wrist. I remember Tibor Hazi as hitting hard backhands and hardly ever stepping around to avoid a backhand. Marty Reisman and Bobby
                > Gusikoff had very sharp backhand hits using mostly forearm rather than whole arm mostion. In fact Marty still does it.
                > >
                > > --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com <hardbat%40yahoogroups.com>, David Kent <dwkent@> wrote:
                > >>
                > >> The standard "backhand flick" is essentially all wrist. You snap the
                > >> paddle, twisting around the axis of the handle length, hitting the ball
                > >> with the half of the racquet (moving forward, obviously) on the thumb
                > >> (radial) side of the wrist as you supinate the wrist/hand. There is
                > >> practically no ball spin generated, just a flat hit, and the direction
                > >> the ball goes in is dependent on the timing of the hit, hence the
                > >> difficulty in achieving consistency, and the capacity for deception. In
                > >> the "flick", half of the racket face is going forward and half is going
                > >> backward, so the speed is dependent on how close to the edge of the
                > >> paddle face you contact the ball. Nearer the center line ( the extension
                > >> of the handle line) has less power. So this "flick" can have a lot of
                > >> power while the opponent (and frequently the hitter as well) has no clue
                > >> as to the direction or speed of the ball until he sees it coming.
                > >>
                > >> There is another wrist shot where the twist line axis is perpendicular
                > >> to the handle axis, and through the handle or base of the face, so all
                > >> of the paddle face is moving forward. This is a little easier, but less
                > >> deceptive, and more common, and this was usually not called a "flick",
                > >> rather a "punch" or a "slap" and usually involving more of the arm as
                > >> well. J-O Waldner used this a lot on the backhand in the sponge game.
                > >>
                > >> Dr Dave
                > >>
                > >> **************************
                > >>
                > >> Boneman wrote:
                > >> >
                > >> > Completely in concurrence with Jay and his sources. I find that
                > >> > blocks, chops and any defensive backhand strokes are more "arm"
                > >> > intensive. The lightning-fast wrist snap from hell.... whilst
                > >> > certainly involving the arm, it is the wrist that generates 75%... or
                > >> > even more... of the energy that's imparted on the ball.
                > >> >
                > >> > I developed that stroke naturally when I played sponge. Don't even
                > >> > recall putting any thought, effort or time into it, it just started to
                > >> > happen at one point in time. It was quite some time before I could use
                > >> > it effectively with the hardbat but when executed properly it's scary
                > >> > even from my side of the table. It usually elicits a look of utter
                > >> > bafflement from my opponent in most cases.
                > >> >
                > >> > Happy New Year!
                > >> >
                > >> > Larry "Boneman" Bone
                > >> > Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
                > >> > 80421
                > >> >
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                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
              • joseph.sabella
                I have been trying these ideas and what seems to work the best for most backhand shots is a combination of wrist and forearm. The hard wrist flick is the most
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 9, 2010
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                  I have been trying these ideas and what seems to work the best for most backhand shots is a combination of wrist and forearm. The hard wrist flick is the most effective shot but more easily missed and I really miss it allot when the ball is below the net. When I use both the forearm and the wrist it seems to be a more controlled shot, but I still have the ability to really crank up the speed when I get a ball that is much above the net!
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