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  • martyreis@aol.com
    This is just a test
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 1, 2003
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      This is just a test
    • Tandy Goldberg
      Messrs. Dan Seemiller and Norby will be giving a free coaching clinic for all USATT coaches Dec. 5-7. The clinic will be held in a hotel because his club is
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 4, 2003
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        Messrs. Dan Seemiller and Norby will be giving a free
        coaching clinic for all USATT coaches Dec. 5-7.

        The clinic will be held in a hotel because his club is
        closed. (The club will start up in January.) He has
        24 for slots open: 6 for Club Coach, 6 for Regional
        and 6 for National. The USATT will pay certified
        coaches $200 for expenses.

        The only drawback is that there will only be two
        tables for training.

        Mr. Seemiller said that the clinic will not focus on
        Hardbat.

        I am planning on going if he has the clinic. Not many
        people have signed up yet.

        It would be great for our the HB Renaissance if as
        many people as possible could attend this clinic.
        I've taken Mr. Seemiller's clinic and it is terrific.

        If you are interested in going, please call me at 310
        967 5844.

        ed
        --- martyreis@... wrote:
        > This is just a test
        >


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      • Larry Hodges
        I will be attending the coaching clinic in Indiana as a coach. I will also be giving a short 30-minute seminar on the business of coaching. The clinic,
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 4, 2003
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          I will be attending the coaching clinic in Indiana as a coach. I will also
          be giving a short 30-minute seminar on the business of coaching.

          The clinic, however, focuses on coaching the sponge game. If we want a
          hardbat clinic, then someone has to set it up. I'll help run it if someone
          sets it up at a time when I'm free. But I don't think the USATT coaching
          clinic is appropriate for hardbat coaches - they will basically be teaching
          a different game.

          I hadn't heard that the clinic was in a hotel, or that the South Bend club
          would be closed. Where did you hear this?

          There are four coaching classifications: Club, state, regional and national,
          with 6 invited from each. (The state level coaches were left out of the
          message below.)

          -Larry Hodges

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Tandy Goldberg" <theplayer007@...>
          To: <hardbat@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 9:40 PM
          Subject: [hardbat] Seemiller Coaching Clinic


          > Messrs. Dan Seemiller and Norby will be giving a free
          > coaching clinic for all USATT coaches Dec. 5-7.
          >
          > The clinic will be held in a hotel because his club is
          > closed. (The club will start up in January.) He has
          > 24 for slots open: 6 for Club Coach, 6 for Regional
          > and 6 for National. The USATT will pay certified
          > coaches $200 for expenses.
          >
          > The only drawback is that there will only be two
          > tables for training.
          >
          > Mr. Seemiller said that the clinic will not focus on
          > Hardbat.
          >
          > I am planning on going if he has the clinic. Not many
          > people have signed up yet.
          >
          > It would be great for our the HB Renaissance if as
          > many people as possible could attend this clinic.
          > I've taken Mr. Seemiller's clinic and it is terrific.
          >
          > If you are interested in going, please call me at 310
          > 967 5844.
          >
          > ed
          > --- martyreis@... wrote:
          > > This is just a test
          > >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________
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          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > hardbat-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • bjgmann1
          ... I think that the US Classic Table Tennis Association should indeed consider training and certifying hardbat coaches who can teach our different game ,
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 4, 2003
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            --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Hodges" <larry@l...> wrote: (excerpted)

            > But I don't think the USATT coaching clinic is appropriate for hardbat coaches -
            > they will basically be teaching a different game.

            I think that the US Classic Table Tennis Association should indeed consider training
            and certifying "hardbat coaches" who can teach our "different game", either pro bono,
            without pay as I've always done as a former certified Club Coach, or possibly as well
            as a coaching professional for remuneration. I hear Marty charges $75 an hour for
            lessons. Not too shabby. I, the Lunch Money Player with an U-1500 Open and U-
            1500 Nationals under my belt, should be able to charge at least $7.50 an hour with a
            Wang Hao/Marty approach to classic wannabees of all ages if I could just put that
            "Classic Table Tennis Certified Coach" sheepskin somewhere up on the wall.

            Two questions, however, arise: (1) Would or could USATT train and recognize hardbat
            coaches, or at least recognize them as USATT-USCTTA affiliated coaches who
            specialize in this particular version of table tennis? and (2) What's gonna be the
            nature of the "differnt game" hardbat coaches presumably would have to teach? The
            classic attack/defense spin-continuation loose-grip serve and sidespin scorning
            approach best exemplified by Marty himself and Miles Heir Apparent The Chimp?
            Your neoclassic loose grip serve followed by a ferocious flat rip approach with
            chopping, fishing topspin defense, and lobbing as fallback options? My hybrid Wang
            Who? smorgasbord expressionist modern reverse penhold backhand topspin-cum-
            chop oriented Barna in Hard Rubber heaven falling off his barstool in amazement
            hard rubber style police defying approach?

            What, in other words, Larry, comprises in your authoritative opinion the "different
            approach" a 21st century hard rubber coach should take, and how should either
            USATT and the USCTTA or USCTTA by itself train coaches and instructors to be
            conversant in teaching this "different approach"?

            Berndt
          • Larry Hodges
            I would think that, for now, if hardbat wants to have hardbat coaches, they should develop them on their own. If we develop a list of hardbat coaches, I can
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 5, 2003
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              I would think that, for now, if hardbat wants to have hardbat coaches, they
              should develop them on their own. If we develop a list of hardbat coaches, I
              can convince the USATT webmaster (hi there!) to put a link to this listing
              from the USATT coaches list. But we'd have to actually have some sort of
              certification process, even if it's a rather simple or informal one.

              I'm not sure what you mean by the "different approach" a hardbat coach
              should take.

              -Larry Hodges

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "bjgmann1" <bjgmann1@...>
              To: <hardbat@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 1:47 AM
              Subject: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic


              > --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Hodges" <larry@l...> wrote:
              (excerpted)
              >
              > > But I don't think the USATT coaching clinic is appropriate for hardbat
              coaches -
              > > they will basically be teaching a different game.
              >
              > I think that the US Classic Table Tennis Association should indeed
              consider training
              > and certifying "hardbat coaches" who can teach our "different game",
              either pro bono,
              > without pay as I've always done as a former certified Club Coach, or
              possibly as well
              > as a coaching professional for remuneration. I hear Marty charges $75 an
              hour for
              > lessons. Not too shabby. I, the Lunch Money Player with an U-1500 Open
              and U-
              > 1500 Nationals under my belt, should be able to charge at least $7.50 an
              hour with a
              > Wang Hao/Marty approach to classic wannabees of all ages if I could just
              put that
              > "Classic Table Tennis Certified Coach" sheepskin somewhere up on the wall.
              >
              > Two questions, however, arise: (1) Would or could USATT train and
              recognize hardbat
              > coaches, or at least recognize them as USATT-USCTTA affiliated coaches who
              > specialize in this particular version of table tennis? and (2) What's
              gonna be the
              > nature of the "differnt game" hardbat coaches presumably would have to
              teach? The
              > classic attack/defense spin-continuation loose-grip serve and sidespin
              scorning
              > approach best exemplified by Marty himself and Miles Heir Apparent The
              Chimp?
              > Your neoclassic loose grip serve followed by a ferocious flat rip approach
              with
              > chopping, fishing topspin defense, and lobbing as fallback options? My
              hybrid Wang
              > Who? smorgasbord expressionist modern reverse penhold backhand
              topspin-cum-
              > chop oriented Barna in Hard Rubber heaven falling off his barstool in
              amazement
              > hard rubber style police defying approach?
              >
              > What, in other words, Larry, comprises in your authoritative opinion the
              "different
              > approach" a 21st century hard rubber coach should take, and how should
              either
              > USATT and the USCTTA or USCTTA by itself train coaches and instructors to
              be
              > conversant in teaching this "different approach"?
              >
              > Berndt
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > hardbat-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • bjgmann1
              ... This sounds sensible to me. I don t even know, Larry, whether or not there even was a coaching certification process back in the 1960s, when Dave Krizman,
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 5, 2003
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                --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Hodges" <larry@l...> wrote:
                > I would think that, for now, if hardbat wants to have hardbat coaches, they
                > should develop them on their own. If we develop a list of hardbat coaches, I
                > can convince the USATT webmaster (hi there!) to put a link to this listing
                > from the USATT coaches list. But we'd have to actually have some sort of
                > certification process, even if it's a rather simple or informal one.

                This sounds sensible to me. I don't even know, Larry, whether or not there even was
                a coaching certification process back in the 1960s, when Dave Krizman, a top junior
                player in the early 1950s and later Danny Vegh, a two-time national doubles
                champion and ranked as high and number 6 in the U.S., taught me the basic and
                advanced techniques of hard rubber play as it was played then. With their credentials
                as players and knowledge of techniques and tactics, I'd presume they'd be the
                equivalent of today's International Level coaches.

                There were no clinics that I knew of back then where either a player could go to to
                learn to play better or, such as Dan Seemiller's coaching clinic, players like Krizman
                and Vegh who were also good coaches could go to refine their coaching skills.

                But armed with what they taught me, I gave basic table tennis instruction to children
                aged about 10-15 at the Cleveland Heights, Ohio YMCA in the fall and winter of
                1964-1965. As I was taught, I taught the kids first the backhand block and forehand
                block, then the backhand and forehand pushes, the backhand and forehand chop, the
                forehand and backhand drive against chop, the basic underspin and topspin serve,
                and finally, the forehand and backhand counterdrive, along with the necessary
                footwork to get into position to be able to make these strokes.

                Without referring to it as such, I taught these kids the basics of spin continuance, that
                the basic response to topspin was underspin and vice versa, i.e., drive a chop and
                chop a drive.

                I did not go into sidespin or combinations of topspin/sidespin or underspin/sidespin
                to any great extent, as sidespin combinations were not regarded as intrinsic to
                effective hard rubber technique as they are now to modern sponge play. I showed
                them how a left to right and right to left sidespin serve behaved, and that if they were
                not sure what kind of sidespin/topspin or sidespin/underspin ball they were getting,
                a basic way to correct for this (there are of course a number of different ways in use
                now) is to use a push stroke aimed toward the middle of your opponent's side of the
                table.

                > I'm not sure what you mean by the "different approach" a hardbat coach
                > should take.

                Perhaps I didn't make myself entirely clear, Larry. You said that hardbat was a
                different game from sponge, and having played it competitively from the year you
                were born and being somewhat conversant with 21st century sponge, I couldn't agree
                with you more.

                The example I gave above, would, however, seem to be a "different approach" to
                teaching than is used by coaches now teaching modern techniques, emphasizing spin
                reversal as opposed to spin continuance and incorporating many more sidespin/
                topspin and underspin/topspin options and techniques than were used by
                hardbatters in the early 1960s.

                It's certainly possible to incorporate modern techniques into hard rubber play. You
                and Lily Yip and Jim Butler and Eric Owens and Freddie Gabriel and Alex Perez and Ty
                Hoff, just to name a few elite hard rubber as well as sponge rubber players are
                "classic" examples of that. John Tannehill is a "neoclassic" example of a classic hard
                rubber player; his strokes are classic but he also incorporates loose-grip pendulum
                serves in his attack-oriented all-round game.

                It's also possible to play hard rubber table tennis to the expert and elite level even
                against sponge using a "classic era" "classic" approach. Steve Berger has been as high
                as 2300 using classic technique a la Miles, and Marty at soon to be age 74 is still a
                2000 level player using, well what else but the full Marty.

                The Marty/Miles/Vegh approach was the one I used, as obviously it was the only one I
                knew, to teach juniors with no aspirations to Olympic or international glory the basics
                of table tennis as it was then.

                I suppose, as that type of classic game and that approach are still a part of my muscle
                and mental memory, as a Certified Classic Table Tennis Coach from a certified classic
                table tennis master such as Marty Reisman or Steve Berger (Vegh and Krizman having
                long since left the sport), I could say in the year 2004 teach folk of all ages hard
                rubber techniques and principles that are simple and elegant, and that worked quite
                well in 1964, or 1954 or 1944 or even 1934, for that matter, and still work quite well
                now.

                Or, as a Certified Classic Table Tennis Coach from a certified modern classic table
                tennis master such as yourself or Dan Seemiller, I could teach prospective hardbatters
                how to play from a loose-grip serve, spin reversal then spin continuance shakehand
                or penhold and reverse penhold approach, incorporating modern tactics and
                techniques into the hard rubber version of the sport. In short, teach folk how to play
                good hard rubber table tennis as though it were bad glockpong (here insert
                appropriate emoticon to indicate only being my usual snide self).

                To sum up, the traditional approach to teaching hard rubber table tennis which I
                learned emphasized spin continuance, deemphasized sidespin, and deemphasized
                the service except as an opening move to set up the way one wanted to play a point,
                not, if possible, the way to end a point altogether.

                This is a "different approach" from teaching hard rubber table tennis incorporating
                modern techniques emphasizing spin reversal and incorporating sidespin options,
                particularly when serving.

                Would you think, Larry, that there would be room in hard rubber table tennis for
                having USCTTA certify coaches teaching both a traditional and a modern approach to
                playing hard rubber table tennis? I'm acquainted to some extent with both
                approaches, and a hard rubber jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none, and would
                be quite willing to refine my understanding of both modern and traditional hard
                rubber table tennis in clinics given by acknowledged experts such as yourself and
                Marty and Steve, at such time as you (particularly with your 37-hour 24-hour days)
                and they could arrange them.

                Berndt Mann

                > -Larry Hodges
              • Larry Hodges
                ... tennis for having USCTTA certify coaches teaching both a traditional and a modern approach to playing hard rubber table tennis? Only if we show there is a
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 5, 2003
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                  >Would you think, Larry, that there would be room in hard rubber table
                  tennis for
                  having USCTTA certify coaches teaching both a traditional and a modern
                  approach to
                  playing hard rubber table tennis?

                  Only if we show there is a reasonable demand.

                  Regarding the different approaches to coaching sponge vs. hardbat, for
                  hardbat, you simply coach hardbat techniques. A good "hardbat coach" has to
                  be able to judge the best mix of the classical approach and the modern game.

                  -Larry Hodges

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "bjgmann1" <bjgmann1@...>
                  To: <hardbat@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:31 PM
                  Subject: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic


                  > --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Hodges" <larry@l...> wrote:
                  > > I would think that, for now, if hardbat wants to have hardbat coaches,
                  they
                  > > should develop them on their own. If we develop a list of hardbat
                  coaches, I
                  > > can convince the USATT webmaster (hi there!) to put a link to this
                  listing
                  > > from the USATT coaches list. But we'd have to actually have some sort of
                  > > certification process, even if it's a rather simple or informal one.
                  >
                  > This sounds sensible to me. I don't even know, Larry, whether or not
                  there even was
                  > a coaching certification process back in the 1960s, when Dave Krizman, a
                  top junior
                  > player in the early 1950s and later Danny Vegh, a two-time national
                  doubles
                  > champion and ranked as high and number 6 in the U.S., taught me the basic
                  and
                  > advanced techniques of hard rubber play as it was played then. With their
                  credentials
                  > as players and knowledge of techniques and tactics, I'd presume they'd be
                  the
                  > equivalent of today's International Level coaches.
                  >
                  > There were no clinics that I knew of back then where either a player could
                  go to to
                  > learn to play better or, such as Dan Seemiller's coaching clinic, players
                  like Krizman
                  > and Vegh who were also good coaches could go to refine their coaching
                  skills.
                  >
                  > But armed with what they taught me, I gave basic table tennis instruction
                  to children
                  > aged about 10-15 at the Cleveland Heights, Ohio YMCA in the fall and
                  winter of
                  > 1964-1965. As I was taught, I taught the kids first the backhand block
                  and forehand
                  > block, then the backhand and forehand pushes, the backhand and forehand
                  chop, the
                  > forehand and backhand drive against chop, the basic underspin and topspin
                  serve,
                  > and finally, the forehand and backhand counterdrive, along with the
                  necessary
                  > footwork to get into position to be able to make these strokes.
                  >
                  > Without referring to it as such, I taught these kids the basics of spin
                  continuance, that
                  > the basic response to topspin was underspin and vice versa, i.e., drive a
                  chop and
                  > chop a drive.
                  >
                  > I did not go into sidespin or combinations of topspin/sidespin or
                  underspin/sidespin
                  > to any great extent, as sidespin combinations were not regarded as
                  intrinsic to
                  > effective hard rubber technique as they are now to modern sponge play. I
                  showed
                  > them how a left to right and right to left sidespin serve behaved, and
                  that if they were
                  > not sure what kind of sidespin/topspin or sidespin/underspin ball they
                  were getting,
                  > a basic way to correct for this (there are of course a number of different
                  ways in use
                  > now) is to use a push stroke aimed toward the middle of your opponent's
                  side of the
                  > table.
                  >
                  > > I'm not sure what you mean by the "different approach" a hardbat coach
                  > > should take.
                  >
                  > Perhaps I didn't make myself entirely clear, Larry. You said that hardbat
                  was a
                  > different game from sponge, and having played it competitively from the
                  year you
                  > were born and being somewhat conversant with 21st century sponge, I
                  couldn't agree
                  > with you more.
                  >
                  > The example I gave above, would, however, seem to be a "different
                  approach" to
                  > teaching than is used by coaches now teaching modern techniques,
                  emphasizing spin
                  > reversal as opposed to spin continuance and incorporating many more
                  sidespin/
                  > topspin and underspin/topspin options and techniques than were used by
                  > hardbatters in the early 1960s.
                  >
                  > It's certainly possible to incorporate modern techniques into hard rubber
                  play. You
                  > and Lily Yip and Jim Butler and Eric Owens and Freddie Gabriel and Alex
                  Perez and Ty
                  > Hoff, just to name a few elite hard rubber as well as sponge rubber
                  players are
                  > "classic" examples of that. John Tannehill is a "neoclassic" example of a
                  classic hard
                  > rubber player; his strokes are classic but he also incorporates loose-grip
                  pendulum
                  > serves in his attack-oriented all-round game.
                  >
                  > It's also possible to play hard rubber table tennis to the expert and
                  elite level even
                  > against sponge using a "classic era" "classic" approach. Steve Berger has
                  been as high
                  > as 2300 using classic technique a la Miles, and Marty at soon to be age 74
                  is still a
                  > 2000 level player using, well what else but the full Marty.
                  >
                  > The Marty/Miles/Vegh approach was the one I used, as obviously it was the
                  only one I
                  > knew, to teach juniors with no aspirations to Olympic or international
                  glory the basics
                  > of table tennis as it was then.
                  >
                  > I suppose, as that type of classic game and that approach are still a part
                  of my muscle
                  > and mental memory, as a Certified Classic Table Tennis Coach from a
                  certified classic
                  > table tennis master such as Marty Reisman or Steve Berger (Vegh and
                  Krizman having
                  > long since left the sport), I could say in the year 2004 teach folk of all
                  ages hard
                  > rubber techniques and principles that are simple and elegant, and that
                  worked quite
                  > well in 1964, or 1954 or 1944 or even 1934, for that matter, and still
                  work quite well
                  > now.
                  >
                  > Or, as a Certified Classic Table Tennis Coach from a certified modern
                  classic table
                  > tennis master such as yourself or Dan Seemiller, I could teach prospective
                  hardbatters
                  > how to play from a loose-grip serve, spin reversal then spin continuance
                  shakehand
                  > or penhold and reverse penhold approach, incorporating modern tactics and
                  > techniques into the hard rubber version of the sport. In short, teach
                  folk how to play
                  > good hard rubber table tennis as though it were bad glockpong (here insert
                  > appropriate emoticon to indicate only being my usual snide self).
                  >
                  > To sum up, the traditional approach to teaching hard rubber table tennis
                  which I
                  > learned emphasized spin continuance, deemphasized sidespin, and
                  deemphasized
                  > the service except as an opening move to set up the way one wanted to play
                  a point,
                  > not, if possible, the way to end a point altogether.
                  >
                  > This is a "different approach" from teaching hard rubber table tennis
                  incorporating
                  > modern techniques emphasizing spin reversal and incorporating sidespin
                  options,
                  > particularly when serving.
                  >
                  > Would you think, Larry, that there would be room in hard rubber table
                  tennis for
                  > having USCTTA certify coaches teaching both a traditional and a modern
                  approach to
                  > playing hard rubber table tennis? I'm acquainted to some extent with both
                  > approaches, and a hard rubber jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none, and
                  would
                  > be quite willing to refine my understanding of both modern and traditional
                  hard
                  > rubber table tennis in clinics given by acknowledged experts such as
                  yourself and
                  > Marty and Steve, at such time as you (particularly with your 37-hour
                  24-hour days)
                  > and they could arrange them.
                  >
                  > Berndt Mann
                  >
                  > > -Larry Hodges
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > hardbat-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • David Kent
                  Hi guys, I m a club-level certified coach, and I focus on the modern squishy-bat game. I also teach a table tennis class at Sonoma State University. But our
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 5, 2003
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                    Hi guys, I'm a club-level certified coach, and I focus
                    on the modern squishy-bat game. I also teach a table
                    tennis class at Sonoma State University. But our team
                    (Arnie and the Pips - Scott Gordon, Jim Bjornsson, Arnie Schwartz and
                    myself) won the last (3 month) hardbat
                    league for Northern California, and I teach those who prefer to play hardbat
                    as well. One of my coaches in the 1960's was Manny Moskowitz, who especially
                    taught me the value of consistancy.
                    Us older coaches probably can do a good job with either.
                    -- Doctor Dave
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "bjgmann1" <bjgmann1@...>
                    To: <hardbat@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:31 PM
                    Subject: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic


                    > --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Hodges" <larry@l...> wrote:
                    > > I would think that, for now, if hardbat wants to have hardbat coaches,
                    they
                    > > should develop them on their own. If we develop a list of hardbat
                    coaches, I
                    > > can convince the USATT webmaster (hi there!) to put a link to this
                    listing
                    > > from the USATT coaches list. But we'd have to actually have some sort of
                    > > certification process, even if it's a rather simple or informal one.
                    >
                    > This sounds sensible to me. I don't even know, Larry, whether or not
                    there even was
                    > a coaching certification process back in the 1960s, when Dave Krizman, a
                    top junior
                    > player in the early 1950s and later Danny Vegh, a two-time national
                    doubles
                    > champion and ranked as high and number 6 in the U.S., taught me the basic
                    and
                    > advanced techniques of hard rubber play as it was played then. With their
                    credentials
                    > as players and knowledge of techniques and tactics, I'd presume they'd be
                    the
                    > equivalent of today's International Level coaches.
                    >
                    > There were no clinics that I knew of back then where either a player could
                    go to to
                    > learn to play better or, such as Dan Seemiller's coaching clinic, players
                    like Krizman
                    > and Vegh who were also good coaches could go to refine their coaching
                    skills.
                    >
                    > But armed with what they taught me, I gave basic table tennis instruction
                    to children
                    > aged about 10-15 at the Cleveland Heights, Ohio YMCA in the fall and
                    winter of
                    > 1964-1965. As I was taught, I taught the kids first the backhand block
                    and forehand
                    > block, then the backhand and forehand pushes, the backhand and forehand
                    chop, the
                    > forehand and backhand drive against chop, the basic underspin and topspin
                    serve,
                    > and finally, the forehand and backhand counterdrive, along with the
                    necessary
                    > footwork to get into position to be able to make these strokes.
                    >
                    > Without referring to it as such, I taught these kids the basics of spin
                    continuance, that
                    > the basic response to topspin was underspin and vice versa, i.e., drive a
                    chop and
                    > chop a drive.
                    >
                    > I did not go into sidespin or combinations of topspin/sidespin or
                    underspin/sidespin
                    > to any great extent, as sidespin combinations were not regarded as
                    intrinsic to
                    > effective hard rubber technique as they are now to modern sponge play. I
                    showed
                    > them how a left to right and right to left sidespin serve behaved, and
                    that if they were
                    > not sure what kind of sidespin/topspin or sidespin/underspin ball they
                    were getting,
                    > a basic way to correct for this (there are of course a number of different
                    ways in use
                    > now) is to use a push stroke aimed toward the middle of your opponent's
                    side of the
                    > table.
                    >
                    > > I'm not sure what you mean by the "different approach" a hardbat coach
                    > > should take.
                    >
                    > Perhaps I didn't make myself entirely clear, Larry. You said that hardbat
                    was a
                    > different game from sponge, and having played it competitively from the
                    year you
                    > were born and being somewhat conversant with 21st century sponge, I
                    couldn't agree
                    > with you more.
                    >
                    > The example I gave above, would, however, seem to be a "different
                    approach" to
                    > teaching than is used by coaches now teaching modern techniques,
                    emphasizing spin
                    > reversal as opposed to spin continuance and incorporating many more
                    sidespin/
                    > topspin and underspin/topspin options and techniques than were used by
                    > hardbatters in the early 1960s.
                    >
                    > It's certainly possible to incorporate modern techniques into hard rubber
                    play. You
                    > and Lily Yip and Jim Butler and Eric Owens and Freddie Gabriel and Alex
                    Perez and Ty
                    > Hoff, just to name a few elite hard rubber as well as sponge rubber
                    players are
                    > "classic" examples of that. John Tannehill is a "neoclassic" example of a
                    classic hard
                    > rubber player; his strokes are classic but he also incorporates loose-grip
                    pendulum
                    > serves in his attack-oriented all-round game.
                    >
                    > It's also possible to play hard rubber table tennis to the expert and
                    elite level even
                    > against sponge using a "classic era" "classic" approach. Steve Berger has
                    been as high
                    > as 2300 using classic technique a la Miles, and Marty at soon to be age 74
                    is still a
                    > 2000 level player using, well what else but the full Marty.
                    >
                    > The Marty/Miles/Vegh approach was the one I used, as obviously it was the
                    only one I
                    > knew, to teach juniors with no aspirations to Olympic or international
                    glory the basics
                    > of table tennis as it was then.
                    >
                    > I suppose, as that type of classic game and that approach are still a part
                    of my muscle
                    > and mental memory, as a Certified Classic Table Tennis Coach from a
                    certified classic
                    > table tennis master such as Marty Reisman or Steve Berger (Vegh and
                    Krizman having
                    > long since left the sport), I could say in the year 2004 teach folk of all
                    ages hard
                    > rubber techniques and principles that are simple and elegant, and that
                    worked quite
                    > well in 1964, or 1954 or 1944 or even 1934, for that matter, and still
                    work quite well
                    > now.
                    >
                    > Or, as a Certified Classic Table Tennis Coach from a certified modern
                    classic table
                    > tennis master such as yourself or Dan Seemiller, I could teach prospective
                    hardbatters
                    > how to play from a loose-grip serve, spin reversal then spin continuance
                    shakehand
                    > or penhold and reverse penhold approach, incorporating modern tactics and
                    > techniques into the hard rubber version of the sport. In short, teach
                    folk how to play
                    > good hard rubber table tennis as though it were bad glockpong (here insert
                    > appropriate emoticon to indicate only being my usual snide self).
                    >
                    > To sum up, the traditional approach to teaching hard rubber table tennis
                    which I
                    > learned emphasized spin continuance, deemphasized sidespin, and
                    deemphasized
                    > the service except as an opening move to set up the way one wanted to play
                    a point,
                    > not, if possible, the way to end a point altogether.
                    >
                    > This is a "different approach" from teaching hard rubber table tennis
                    incorporating
                    > modern techniques emphasizing spin reversal and incorporating sidespin
                    options,
                    > particularly when serving.
                    >
                    > Would you think, Larry, that there would be room in hard rubber table
                    tennis for
                    > having USCTTA certify coaches teaching both a traditional and a modern
                    approach to
                    > playing hard rubber table tennis? I'm acquainted to some extent with both
                    > approaches, and a hard rubber jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none, and
                    would
                    > be quite willing to refine my understanding of both modern and traditional
                    hard
                    > rubber table tennis in clinics given by acknowledged experts such as
                    yourself and
                    > Marty and Steve, at such time as you (particularly with your 37-hour
                    24-hour days)
                    > and they could arrange them.
                    >
                    > Berndt Mann
                    >
                    > > -Larry Hodges
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > hardbat-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Howard Blum
                    Yo David, Are you coming to this Sunday¹s Hardbat Fest II in Novato? Scott is coming in from Sacramento and bringing in his friend Jerry. Jim Bjornsson said
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 5, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Re: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic Yo David,

                      Are you coming to this Sunday’s Hardbat Fest II in Novato? Scott is coming in from Sacramento and bringing in his friend Jerry. Jim Bjornsson said last night he is likely coming also.

                      HB
                      415-898-4130 anytime


                      From: "David Kent" <dwkent@...>
                      Reply-To: hardbat@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:04:43 -0800
                      To: <hardbat@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic


                      Hi guys,  I'm a club-level certified coach, and I focus
                      on the modern squishy-bat game. I also teach a table
                      tennis class at Sonoma State University. But our team
                      (Arnie and the Pips - Scott Gordon, Jim Bjornsson, Arnie Schwartz and
                      myself) won the last (3 month) hardbat
                      league for Northern California, and I teach those who prefer to play hardbat
                      as well. One of my coaches in the 1960's was Manny Moskowitz, who especially
                      taught me the value of consistancy.
                      Us older coaches probably can do a good job with either.
                      --  Doctor Dave
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "bjgmann1" <bjgmann1@...>
                      To: <hardbat@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:31 PM
                      Subject: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic


                      > --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Hodges" <larry@l...> wrote:
                      > > I would think that, for now, if hardbat wants to have hardbat coaches,
                      they
                      > > should develop them on their own. If we develop a list of hardbat
                      coaches, I
                      > > can convince the USATT webmaster (hi there!) to put a link to this
                      listing
                      > > from the USATT coaches list. But we'd have to actually have some sort of
                      > > certification process, even if it's a rather simple or informal one.
                      >
                      > This sounds sensible to me.  I don't even know, Larry, whether or not
                      there even was
                      > a coaching certification process back in the 1960s, when Dave Krizman, a
                      top junior
                      > player in the early 1950s and later Danny Vegh, a two-time national
                      doubles
                      > champion and ranked as high and number 6 in the U.S., taught me the basic
                      and
                      > advanced techniques of hard rubber play as it was played then.  With their
                      credentials
                      > as players and knowledge of techniques and tactics, I'd presume they'd be
                      the
                      > equivalent of today's International Level coaches.
                      >
                      > There were no clinics that I knew of back then where either a player could
                      go to to
                      > learn to play better or, such as Dan Seemiller's coaching clinic, players
                      like Krizman
                      > and Vegh who were also good coaches could go to refine their coaching
                      skills.
                      >
                      > But armed with what they taught me, I gave basic table tennis instruction
                      to children
                      > aged about 10-15 at the Cleveland Heights, Ohio YMCA in the fall and
                      winter of
                      > 1964-1965.  As I was taught, I taught the kids first the backhand block
                      and forehand
                      > block, then the backhand and forehand pushes, the backhand and forehand
                      chop, the
                      > forehand and backhand drive against chop, the basic underspin and topspin
                      serve,
                      > and finally, the forehand and backhand counterdrive, along with the
                      necessary
                      > footwork to get into position to be able to make these strokes.
                      >
                      > Without referring to it as such, I taught these kids the basics of spin
                      continuance, that
                      > the basic response to topspin was underspin and vice versa, i.e., drive a
                      chop and
                      > chop a drive.
                      >
                      > I did not go into sidespin or combinations of topspin/sidespin or
                      underspin/sidespin
                      > to any great extent, as sidespin combinations were not regarded as
                      intrinsic to
                      > effective hard rubber technique as they are now to modern sponge play.  I
                      showed
                      > them how a left to right and right to left sidespin serve behaved, and
                      that if they were
                      > not sure what kind of sidespin/topspin or sidespin/underspin ball they
                      were getting,
                      > a basic way to correct for this (there are of course a number of different
                      ways in use
                      > now) is to use a push stroke aimed toward the middle of your opponent's
                      side of the
                      > table.
                      >
                      > > I'm not sure what you mean by the "different approach" a hardbat coach
                      > > should take.
                      >
                      > Perhaps I didn't make myself entirely clear, Larry.  You said that hardbat
                      was a
                      > different game from sponge, and having played it competitively from the
                      year you
                      > were born and being somewhat conversant with 21st century sponge, I
                      couldn't agree
                      > with you more.
                      >
                      > The example I gave above, would, however, seem to be a "different
                      approach" to
                      > teaching than is used by coaches now teaching modern techniques,
                      emphasizing spin
                      > reversal as opposed to spin continuance and incorporating many more
                      sidespin/
                      > topspin and underspin/topspin options and techniques than were used by
                      > hardbatters in the early 1960s.
                      >
                      > It's certainly possible to incorporate modern techniques into hard rubber
                      play.  You
                      > and Lily Yip and Jim Butler and Eric Owens and Freddie Gabriel and Alex
                      Perez and Ty
                      > Hoff, just to name a few elite hard rubber as well as sponge rubber
                      players are
                      > "classic" examples of that.  John Tannehill is a "neoclassic" example of a
                      classic hard
                      > rubber player; his strokes are classic but he also incorporates loose-grip
                      pendulum
                      > serves in his attack-oriented all-round game.
                      >
                      > It's also possible to play hard rubber table tennis to the expert and
                      elite level even
                      > against sponge using a "classic era" "classic" approach.  Steve Berger has
                      been as high
                      > as 2300 using classic technique a la Miles, and Marty at soon to be age 74
                      is still a
                      > 2000 level player using, well what else but the full Marty.
                      >
                      > The Marty/Miles/Vegh approach was the one I used, as obviously it was the
                      only one I
                      > knew, to teach juniors with no aspirations to Olympic or international
                      glory the basics
                      > of table tennis as it was then.
                      >
                      > I suppose, as that type of classic game and that approach are still a part
                      of my muscle
                      > and mental memory, as a Certified Classic Table Tennis Coach from a
                      certified classic
                      > table tennis master such as Marty Reisman or Steve Berger (Vegh and
                      Krizman having
                      > long since left the sport), I could say in the year 2004 teach folk of all
                      ages hard
                      > rubber techniques and principles that are simple and elegant, and that
                      worked quite
                      > well in 1964, or 1954 or 1944 or even 1934, for that matter, and still
                      work quite well
                      > now.
                      >
                      > Or, as a Certified Classic Table Tennis Coach from a certified modern
                      classic table
                      > tennis master such as yourself or Dan Seemiller, I could teach prospective
                      hardbatters
                      > how to play from a loose-grip serve, spin reversal then spin continuance
                      shakehand
                      > or penhold and reverse penhold approach, incorporating modern tactics and
                      > techniques into the hard rubber version of the sport.  In short, teach
                      folk how to play
                      > good hard rubber table tennis as though it were bad glockpong (here insert
                      > appropriate emoticon to indicate only being my usual snide self).
                      >
                      > To sum up, the traditional approach to teaching hard rubber table tennis
                      which I
                      > learned emphasized spin continuance, deemphasized sidespin, and
                      deemphasized
                      > the service except as an opening move to set up the way one wanted to play
                      a point,
                      > not, if possible, the way to end a point altogether.
                      >
                      > This is a "different approach" from teaching hard rubber table tennis
                      incorporating
                      > modern techniques emphasizing spin reversal and incorporating sidespin
                      options,
                      > particularly when serving.
                      >
                      > Would you think, Larry, that there would be room in hard rubber table
                      tennis for
                      > having USCTTA certify coaches teaching both a traditional and a modern
                      approach to
                      > playing hard rubber table tennis?  I'm acquainted to some extent with both
                      > approaches, and a hard rubber jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none, and
                      would
                      > be quite willing to refine my understanding of both modern and traditional
                      hard
                      > rubber table tennis in clinics given by acknowledged experts such as
                      yourself and
                      > Marty and Steve, at such time as you (particularly with your 37-hour
                      24-hour days)
                      > and they could arrange them.
                      >
                      > Berndt Mann
                      >
                      > > -Larry Hodges
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > hardbat-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >


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                    • Al Papp
                      ... Berndt, are you willing to try and organize a USCTTA coach certification examination, consisting of a number of apropos questions designed to elicit the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 5, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 12:31 PM, bjgmann1 wrote:

                        > Would you think, Larry, that there would be room in hard rubber table
                        > tennis for
                        > having USCTTA certify coaches teaching both a traditional and a modern
                        > approach to
                        > playing hard rubber table tennis?  I'm acquainted to some extent with
                        > both
                        > approaches, and a hard rubber jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none,
                        > and would
                        > be quite willing to refine my understanding of both modern and
                        > traditional hard
                        > rubber table tennis in clinics given by acknowledged experts such as
                        > yourself and
                        > Marty and Steve, at such time as you (particularly with your 37-hour
                        > 24-hour days)
                        > and they could arrange them.   
                        >
                        > Berndt Mann

                        Berndt, are you willing to try and organize a USCTTA coach
                        certification examination, consisting of a number of apropos questions
                        designed to elicit the knowledge of the test-taker in hardbat vs.
                        hardbat technique? Given the existence of such an examination, would
                        you be willing to be in charge of the very simple administration
                        responsibilities of such a certification program? Will you volunteer
                        to be the first ever USCTTA Coaching Program Czar?

                        Al
                      • Larry Hodges
                        Hi Berndt, Thanks for the praise. Right now, I don t have time for any more activities. I ve given up eating and sleeping, and if I take on anything else ...
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 5, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Berndt,

                          Thanks for the praise. Right now, I don't have time for any more activities.
                          I've given up eating and sleeping, and if I take on anything else ... I'd
                          have to give up watching West Wing!!! :)

                          But I will assist others if they take the initiative and don't do it between
                          9 and 10 PM on Wednesdays.

                          -Larry Hodges

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "bjgmann1" <bjgmann1@...>
                          To: <hardbat@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 11:41 PM
                          Subject: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic


                          --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, Al Papp <al@m...> wrote:
                          > On Wednesday, November 5, 2003, at 12:31 PM, bjgmann1 wrote:
                          >
                          > > Would you think, Larry, that there would be room in hard rubber table
                          > > tennis for
                          > > having USCTTA certify coaches teaching both a traditional and a modern =

                          > > approach to
                          > > playing hard rubber table tennis? I'm acquainted to some extent with
                          > > both
                          > > approaches, and a hard rubber jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none,
                          > > and would
                          > > be quite willing to refine my understanding of both modern and
                          > > traditional hard
                          > > rubber table tennis in clinics given by acknowledged experts such as
                          > > yourself and
                          > > Marty and Steve, at such time as you (particularly with your 37-hour
                          > > 24-hour days)
                          > > and they could arrange them.
                          > >
                          > > Berndt Mann
                          >
                          > Berndt, are you willing to try and organize a USCTTA coach
                          > certification examination, consisting of a number of apropos questions
                          > designed to elicit the knowledge of the test-taker in hardbat vs.
                          > hardbat technique? Given the existence of such an examination, would
                          > you be willing to be in charge of the very simple administration
                          > responsibilities of such a certification program? Will you volunteer
                          > to be the first ever USCTTA Coaching Program Czar?
                          >
                          > Al

                          In a word, Al, no.

                          I've poured thousands of dollars into hard rubber table tennis, in both pri=
                          ze monies
                          for hard rubber events at the U.S. Open and National Championships, the St.=
                          Joseph's
                          Open, the Buckeye Open, and Ohio Closed tournaments. Although now in a sta=
                          te of
                          suspended animation, due to Don Varian's full-time job requiring him to be =
                          out of
                          state for an unpredictable number of days at a time, a situation distressin=
                          g to both
                          Don and Hock Table Tennis, i've also put an ungodly amount of money into Ho=
                          ck to
                          try to preserve it for posterity. Since I live about a hundred miles from =
                          where Don
                          lives, in Wooster, Ohio and since I don't know how to assemble Hock rackets=
                          myself,
                          this is pretty much why Hock isn't doing any business to speak of lately.

                          I am interested in the possibility of using my 43 years experience in table=
                          tennis and
                          knoweldge of in particular its hard rubber version to derive for myself at =
                          least a
                          supplemental income by either teaching and coaching it, or teaching and coa=
                          ching
                          both it and modern table tennis, which I've already done for free as a form=
                          er Certified
                          Club Coach. To do this I will probably need some sort of certification, wh=
                          ether once
                          again through USATT or possibly eventually through USCTTA, or both.

                          I'm considering the possibility of reenrolling at Ohio State to pursue a de=
                          gree in Sport
                          and Leisure Studies, while possibly working part-time as well, if I have to=
                          .

                          I'm sorry to sound arch about this, as our organization is presently depend=
                          ent on,
                          and for the forseeable future will be dependent on, loyal and dedicated vol=
                          unteers.
                          I'm happy to serve on the Rules and Equipment Committee, and I will be happ=
                          y to give
                          and share my views as to, among other things, what should we do if anything=
                          about
                          further regulating pips and the Yahoo hb committee site before we get toget=
                          her at
                          the Nationals, but I'm not interested in administering anything at the mome=
                          nt, and
                          probably for a good long time after the moment. Having a USCTTA Coaching
                          Program Czar may indeed be a potentially good idea, but I'm not the person =
                          to be it.
                          I'm more interested in and better inclined to teach and instruct people tha=
                          n I am to
                          administer anything.

                          Having said that, however, were the US Classic Table Tennis Association a t=
                          ruly
                          financially solvent organization, and were they to send out a classified ad=
                          on this
                          forum for a USCTTA Coaching Progam Czar that offered a minimally decent sal=
                          ary and
                          I wouldn't have to pay an additional arm and leg for health benefits, I wou=
                          ld be there,
                          dude. For money, I'm not all that bad an administrator. I've worked as th=
                          e
                          administrative assistant to the Executive Director of a drug center, and du=
                          ring my six
                          years in the U.S. Postal Serivce I assisted union stewards in preparing and=
                          filing
                          grievances and interpreting both the Postal Service's national contract and=
                          local
                          Memorandum of Understanding.

                          But, for the short and long term, I'm interested in coaching and teaching p=
                          eople who
                          are not potential Olympic material to play table tennis to at least the lev=
                          el that they
                          can enjoy it and also be somewhat competitive; in other words be a table te=
                          nnis pro
                          analogous to a golf pro who can take a 30-handicapper down to a 20-handicap=
                          with
                          a bit of helpful and sound instruction or a tennis pro who can take a 2.0 p=
                          layer to the
                          3.0 level. IMHO, one doesn't need to necessarily have, although it certain=
                          ly couldn't
                          and doesn't hurt, knowledge of all the different kinds of rubbers and their=
                          properties
                          and loose-grip serves and sidespin pushes and inside-out loops and whatever=
                          else is
                          idiomatic to the modern game to teach someone of any age to teach for pay s=
                          omeone
                          ordinarily coordinated and intelligent to play table tennis minimally compe=
                          tently, and
                          enjoy him/herself at least among peers.

                          Modern table tennis instruction in general seems to me to be geared toward =

                          producing first and foremost a pool of talented juniors, with everyone else=
                          who
                          doesn't fall into this category having to adopt somehow to the kind of tabl=
                          e tennis
                          that is being taught them. I'm not sure that this is the best way to popul=
                          arize the
                          sport or keep people who aren't talented juniors in it long enough to want =
                          to continue
                          to play it.

                          What American table tennis needs, before juniors who would hopefully become=

                          international stars, is a simple broad base of players of all ages and abil=
                          ities who
                          would want somehow to become affiliated with USATT, as a simple member play=
                          ing at
                          a club, as a tournament competitor, or as someone who plays in a USATT-spon=
                          sored
                          league. USATT can't presently do a proper job, no matter who the President=
                          and the
                          Board of Directors are, without a broad base of members to bring in enough =
                          revenue
                          so that it wouldn't be dependent on a small and underpaid staff and volunte=
                          ers, no
                          matter how initially committed and energetic, subject to burnout, to simply=
                          keep the
                          sport of table tennis going.

                          Larry Hodges is one of the most capable, energetic and dedicated people I'v=
                          e ever
                          come across in any endeavor. And, despite having a healthy passion for and=

                          dangerous reputation in debate, he seems to be on a remarkably even keel de=
                          spite
                          putting in that 37-hour 24-hour day.

                          But Larry, though grossly underpaid for everything he does, is still a prof=
                          essional.
                          Larry Hodges could not and would not do everything he does in table tennis =
                          for free.
                          Larry Hodges would most likely not be USATT Magazine Editor for free. Larr=
                          y Hodges
                          would not have taken the time and effort to become an International Level C=
                          oach to
                          coach aspiring elites for free. If he were not a table tennis professional=
                          , Larry Hodges
                          might or might not administer the USATT League for free. If he were not a =
                          table
                          tennis professional, Larry Hodges might or might not consent to become the =
                          first ever
                          USCTTA Coaching Program Czar for free. FWIW, I would not ask Larry to beco=
                          me the
                          first ever USCTTA Coaching Program Czar, though he'd probably be Peter the =
                          Great at
                          it, inasmuch as he's already Hardbat Hall of Fame timber for what he's done=
                          for
                          hardbat and additionally has all he can handle and more in USTTA related st=
                          uff.

                          Obviously, USCTTA can't right now, and may never be able to, afford to pay =
                          anybody
                          for anything, so we do have to depend on good people we should be damn grat=
                          eful to
                          to advance our aims. And volunteers are going to be pretty much it till we=
                          get to the
                          near side of Back of Beyond.

                          Having said all this, here's what I would be willing to do. I'd be willing=
                          to attend, at
                          my own expense, if I've the free time to do so unfettered by any future job=
                          or college
                          class constraints, a clinic in hard rubber table tennis techniques and coac=
                          hing
                          techniques given by any acknowledged expert, whether classic, such as Marty=

                          Reisman or Steve Berger, or modern, such as Larry Hodges. I'd be willing t=
                          o become a
                          USCTTA Certified Coach, with the aim of advancing hard rubber table tennis =
                          by being
                          a paid instructor at it, similar to a basic tennis or golf pro. Not on my =
                          own, but with
                          assistance from either these or any other acknowledged hard rubber expert, =
                          I'd be
                          willing to help with and type out and proofread and edit, a prospective USC=
                          TTA coach
                          certification examination. As I've said, however, I don't want to administ=
                          rate coaching
                          certification, and I don't want to be a Hard Rubber Coaching Program Czar. =


                          I'm a willing and capable NCO as far as my worth to both classic table tenn=
                          is and
                          USATT is concerned; I've no desire to be an officer.

                          Berndt Mann










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                        • David Kent
                          Re: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching ClinicHoward, I should be there. -- Doctor Dave ... From: Howard Blum To: hardbat@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday,
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 6, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Re: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic
                            Howard,  I should be there. -- Doctor Dave
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 4:14 PM
                            Subject: Re: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic

                            Yo David,

                            Are you coming to this Sunday’s Hardbat Fest II in Novato? Scott is coming in from Sacramento and bringing in his friend Jerry. Jim Bjornsson said last night he is likely coming also.

                            HB
                            415-898-4130 anytime


                            From: "David Kent" <dwkent@...>
                            Reply-To: hardbat@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:04:43 -0800
                            To: <hardbat@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: Re: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic


                            Hi guys,  I'm a club-level certified coach, and I focus
                            on the modern squishy-bat game. I also teach a table
                            tennis class at Sonoma State University. But our team
                            (Arnie and the Pips - Scott Gordon, Jim Bjornsson, Arnie Schwartz and
                            myself) won the last (3 month) hardbat
                            league for Northern California, and I teach those who prefer to play hardbat
                            as well. One of my coaches in the 1960's was Manny Moskowitz, who especially
                            taught me the value of consistancy.
                            Us older coaches probably can do a good job with either.
                            --  Doctor Dave
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "bjgmann1" <bjgmann1@...>
                            To: <hardbat@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:31 PM
                            Subject: [hardbat] Re: Seemiller Coaching Clinic


                            > --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Hodges" <larry@l...> wrote:
                            > > I would think that, for now, if hardbat wants to have hardbat coaches,
                            they
                            > > should develop them on their own. If we develop a list of hardbat
                            coaches, I
                            > > can convince the USATT webmaster (hi there!) to put a link to this
                            listing
                            > > from the USATT coaches list. But we'd have to actually have some sort of
                            > > certification process, even if it's a rather simple or informal one.
                            >
                            > This sounds sensible to me.  I don't even know, Larry, whether or not
                            there even was
                            > a coaching certification process back in the 1960s, when Dave Krizman, a
                            top junior
                            > player in the early 1950s and later Danny Vegh, a two-time national
                            doubles
                            > champion and ranked as high and number 6 in the U.S., taught me the basic
                            and
                            > advanced techniques of hard rubber play as it was played then.  With their
                            credentials
                            > as players and knowledge of techniques and tactics, I'd presume they'd be
                            the
                            > equivalent of today's International Level coaches.
                            >
                            > There were no clinics that I knew of back then where either a player could
                            go to to
                            > learn to play better or, such as Dan Seemiller's coaching clinic, players
                            like Krizman
                            > and Vegh who were also good coaches could go to refine their coaching
                            skills.
                            >
                            > But armed with what they taught me, I gave basic table tennis instruction
                            to children
                            > aged about 10-15 at the Cleveland Heights, Ohio YMCA in the fall and
                            winter of
                            > 1964-1965.  As I was taught, I taught the kids first the backhand block
                            and forehand
                            > block, then the backhand and forehand pushes, the backhand and forehand
                            chop, the
                            > forehand and backhand drive against chop, the basic underspin and topspin
                            serve,
                            > and finally, the forehand and backhand counterdrive, along with the
                            necessary
                            > footwork to get into position to be able to make these strokes.
                            >
                            > Without referring to it as such, I taught these kids the basics of spin
                            continuance, that
                            > the basic response to topspin was underspin and vice versa, i.e., drive a
                            chop and
                            > chop a drive.
                            >
                            > I did not go into sidespin or combinations of topspin/sidespin or
                            underspin/sidespin
                            > to any great extent, as sidespin combinations were not regarded as
                            intrinsic to
                            > effective hard rubber technique as they are now to modern sponge play.  I
                            showed
                            > them how a left to right and right to left sidespin serve behaved, and
                            that if they were
                            > not sure what kind of sidespin/topspin or sidespin/underspin ball they
                            were getting,
                            > a basic way to correct for this (there are of course a number of different
                            ways in use
                            > now) is to use a push stroke aimed toward the middle of your opponent's
                            side of the
                            > table.
                            >
                            > > I'm not sure what you mean by the "different approach" a hardbat coach
                            > > should take.
                            >
                            > Perhaps I didn't make myself entirely clear, Larry.  You said that hardbat
                            was a
                            > different game from sponge, and having played it competitively from the
                            year you
                            > were born and being somewhat conversant with 21st century sponge, I
                            couldn't agree
                            > with you more.
                            >
                            > The example I gave above, would, however, seem to be a "different
                            approach" to
                            > teaching than is used by coaches now teaching modern techniques,
                            emphasizing spin
                            > reversal as opposed to spin continuance and incorporating many more
                            sidespin/
                            > topspin and underspin/topspin options and techniques than were used by
                            > hardbatters in the early 1960s.
                            >
                            > It's certainly possible to incorporate modern techniques into hard rubber
                            play.  You
                            > and Lily Yip and Jim Butler and Eric Owens and Freddie Gabriel and Alex
                            Perez and Ty
                            > Hoff, just to name a few elite hard rubber as well as sponge rubber
                            players are
                            > "classic" examples of that.  John Tannehill is a "neoclassic" example of a
                            classic hard
                            > rubber player; his strokes are classic but he also incorporates loose-grip
                            pendulum
                            > serves in his attack-oriented all-round game.
                            >
                            > It's also possible to play hard rubber table tennis to the expert and
                            elite level even
                            > against sponge using a "classic era" "classic" approach.  Steve Berger has
                            been as high
                            > as 2300 using classic technique a la Miles, and Marty at soon to be age 74
                            is still a
                            > 2000 level player using, well what else but the full Marty.
                            >
                            > The Marty/Miles/Vegh approach was the one I used, as obviously it was the
                            only one I
                            > knew, to teach juniors with no aspirations to Olympic or international
                            glory the basics
                            > of table tennis as it was then.
                            >
                            > I suppose, as that type of classic game and that approach are still a part
                            of my muscle
                            > and mental memory, as a Certified Classic Table Tennis Coach from a
                            certified classic
                            > table tennis master such as Marty Reisman or Steve Berger (Vegh and
                            Krizman having
                            > long since left the sport), I could say in the year 2004 teach folk of all
                            ages hard
                            > rubber techniques and principles that are simple and elegant, and that
                            worked quite
                            > well in 1964, or 1954 or 1944 or even 1934, for that matter, and still
                            work quite well
                            > now.
                            >
                            > Or, as a Certified Classic Table Tennis Coach from a certified modern
                            classic table
                            > tennis master such as yourself or Dan Seemiller, I could teach prospective
                            hardbatters
                            > how to play from a loose-grip serve, spin reversal then spin continuance
                            shakehand
                            > or penhold and reverse penhold approach, incorporating modern tactics and
                            > techniques into the hard rubber version of the sport.  In short, teach
                            folk how to play
                            > good hard rubber table tennis as though it were bad glockpong (here insert
                            > appropriate emoticon to indicate only being my usual snide self).
                            >
                            > To sum up, the traditional approach to teaching hard rubber table tennis
                            which I
                            > learned emphasized spin continuance, deemphasized sidespin, and
                            deemphasized
                            > the service except as an opening move to set up the way one wanted to play
                            a point,
                            > not, if possible, the way to end a point altogether.
                            >
                            > This is a "different approach" from teaching hard rubber table tennis
                            incorporating
                            > modern techniques emphasizing spin reversal and incorporating sidespin
                            options,
                            > particularly when serving.
                            >
                            > Would you think, Larry, that there would be room in hard rubber table
                            tennis for
                            > having USCTTA certify coaches teaching both a traditional and a modern
                            approach to
                            > playing hard rubber table tennis?  I'm acquainted to some extent with both
                            > approaches, and a hard rubber jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none, and
                            would
                            > be quite willing to refine my understanding of both modern and traditional
                            hard
                            > rubber table tennis in clinics given by acknowledged experts such as
                            yourself and
                            > Marty and Steve, at such time as you (particularly with your 37-hour
                            24-hour days)
                            > and they could arrange them.
                            >
                            > Berndt Mann
                            >
                            > > -Larry Hodges
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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