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Re: [Hammock Camping] new intro with a few questions

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  • Bruce W. Calkins
    ... Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the less the goat
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 3, 2005
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      > In my opinion a goat makes a better pack option then any other species.
      Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the
      trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the
      less the goat enjoys the hike. And when a goat digs in it's heels, you
      aren't going anywhere.

      > Dessert goats can go days without watter if nessesary so they can easally
      > go all day drinking from the only avalable creek once that day.
      Dessert goats, perhaps. Normal breeds WILL need water more often.
      Especially while working. You will need to keep them away from the
      water source too, they are as sloppy in their toilet as any other pack
      animal.

      > As far as feed they get all they nead with the ocational bite wile packing.
      > They nead total (for my area) about 2 15 minite
      > grazing periods easally done after camp is made.
      A working pack goat WILL need some grain/prepared feed. Browsing will
      not provide enough for the HIGH energy output of packing.

      > They are like deer, they have feet like deer so they don't erode the trails.
      Apparently you have not seen a busy game trail.

      > They don't trample vegitation like other pack animals.
      Less perhaps, still they have feet.

      > Basically a goat is a great "leave no trace" pack alternitive.
      I've tracked goats when they got out of the paddock. They do leave traces.

      > Well trained pck goats never nead to be tied they won't stray from camp
      And might attract bears and/or large cats.

      > Pack goats rock ;)
      True, as long as you stay within their limitations.

      IMHO; Taking any animal increases my work load. While I might be able
      to reduce a 20 pound weekend pack load a bit, I'm constantly picking up
      after, checking pack condition, fetching water, taking extra breaks and
      so on. And that's just with 1 dog. A pack animal would be more work
      for me than hiking without.

      Bruce W.



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    • Dick Matthews
      Bruce, Life is about choices. I applaud the choice to get into the backcountry rather than hang around on the couch. For those that need help getting into the
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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        Bruce,

        Life is about choices.

        I applaud the choice to get into the backcountry rather than hang around
        on the couch.

        For those that need help getting into the backcountry a pack goat is a
        very good choice.

        Everything you said is 100% on the mark.

        My mother was allergic to cow's milk so I grew up around goats. They
        make excellent pets and are a lot of fun. We gave our milk goats about
        a pound of sweet grain a day. Those goofy goats could be standing hock
        deep in blue grass and still climb over a fence to get to a thistle - go
        figure.

        The family of my daughter's best friend has llamas. I have been invited
        to take them out anytime I want, but I never do for exactly the reasons
        you state. They give their llamas sweet grain.

        Black bears would not be a problem, but goats would make great mountain
        lion chow.

        Dick Matthews



        Bruce W. Calkins wrote:

        >>In my opinion a goat makes a better pack option then any other species.
        >>
        >>
        >Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the
        >trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the
        >less the goat enjoys the hike. And when a goat digs in it's heels, you
        >aren't going anywhere.
        >
        >
        >
        >>Dessert goats can go days without watter if nessesary so they can easally
        >>go all day drinking from the only avalable creek once that day.
        >>
        >>
        >Dessert goats, perhaps. Normal breeds WILL need water more often.
        >Especially while working. You will need to keep them away from the
        >water source too, they are as sloppy in their toilet as any other pack
        >animal.
        >
        >
        >
        >>As far as feed they get all they nead with the ocational bite wile packing.
        >>They nead total (for my area) about 2 15 minite
        >>grazing periods easally done after camp is made.
        >>
        >>
        >A working pack goat WILL need some grain/prepared feed. Browsing will
        >not provide enough for the HIGH energy output of packing.
        >
        >
        >
        >>They are like deer, they have feet like deer so they don't erode the trails.
        >>
        >>
        >Apparently you have not seen a busy game trail.
        >
        >
        >
        >>They don't trample vegitation like other pack animals.
        >>
        >>
        >Less perhaps, still they have feet.
        >
        >
        >
        >>Basically a goat is a great "leave no trace" pack alternitive.
        >>
        >>
        >I've tracked goats when they got out of the paddock. They do leave traces.
        >
        >
        >
        >>Well trained pck goats never nead to be tied they won't stray from camp
        >>
        >>
        >And might attract bears and/or large cats.
        >
        >
        >
        >>Pack goats rock ;)
        >>
        >>
        >True, as long as you stay within their limitations.
        >
        >IMHO; Taking any animal increases my work load. While I might be able
        >to reduce a 20 pound weekend pack load a bit, I'm constantly picking up
        >after, checking pack condition, fetching water, taking extra breaks and
        >so on. And that's just with 1 dog. A pack animal would be more work
        >for me than hiking without.
        >
        >Bruce W.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
        Hi sorry for the late reply, i ve bene away from my puter. Anyways i thought i d try to better explane what i was saying about pack goats. ... Bucks are used
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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          Hi sorry for the late reply, i've bene away from my puter. Anyways i thought
          i'd try to better explane what i was saying about pack goats.


          >Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the
          >trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the
          >less the goat enjoys the hike. And when a goat digs in it's heels, you
          >aren't going anywhere.
          Bucks are used 99% of the time for packing and they adverage 280lbs or more.
          60lbs of gear is roughly a 20% body weight ratio. 20% weight is a
          perfectally managable load for a goat even on hard trails. They of course DO nead
          breaks like any other animal. They are 4wheel drive vehickles not race cars.

          As far as "digging in heels" a well trained pack goat won't. They even
          cross watter and goats HATE watter most of the time haha. Just like a well
          trained pack horse. Balking comes from pain or ill trained animals. They are FAR
          less stubern then llamas.

          Pack goats aren't just any goat off the farm. There bred for a paticlure
          body size and shape. There temperments are carefully selected and they are
          hand raised and training starts at birth. There not your tipical goat.


          >Dessert goats, perhaps. Normal breeds WILL need water more often.
          >Especially while working. You will need to keep them away from the
          >water source too, they are as sloppy in their toilet as any other pack
          >animal.


          Dessert goats are better at it but nearly any goat has the functional
          abilitys to manage this. Goats are amazingly versital and adapt to there
          enviroment. Again these are bred packgoats, i'm not taking a goat out of the dairy
          and tossing a pack on it.


          >A working pack goat WILL need some grain/prepared feed. Browsing will
          >not provide enough for the HIGH energy output of packing.

          Auchuly here i disagree and ANY pack goater will tell you. In sertion
          enviroments yes it is true but especially here in the NW there is NO nead to pack
          feeds for a buck. They are the only pack animal that can do this. Now if
          you bring a doe along also for milk and a light load then you have to pack
          grain for her. Does carry much lighter loads but provide milk on the trail
          (great protin sorse for hikers on the trails) and it is easy to make "camp
          yogert" in the morning for a tasty breakfast. How else can you get fresh milk and
          yogert in the back country. Anyways a doe in milk would nead grains but not
          the bucks.

          >Apparently you have not seen a busy game trail.

          HEHEHE i agree, but then again i'm not taking a herd of goats out daily on
          the same trail, i have 1 goat with me and control his behavior.

          >Less perhaps, still they have feet.

          Yes i agree here also, i did not meen to imply they leave NO dammage as they
          don't levitate. They do leave far less dammage then any other pack animal,
          or human for that matter.

          I've tracked goats when they got out of the paddock. They do leave traces.

          Yup especially when left to there own devices, just ask my fruit trees! The
          point i was tryingto make is that they are the most enviromentally friendly
          pack animal choice a hiker can make. As long as you do it properly they
          leave less dammage then a human.

          >And might attract bears and/or large cats.

          They can attract cats but bear i've never heard of. I don't worry much as
          i also hike with my service dog and have him walk the perimiter when i make
          camp (even if camping without goats) His smell makes the cats think twice but
          i know that many many goat packers hike the back country in couger areas and
          never have issues.

          >True, as long as you stay within their limitations.

          Agreed, goats do have there limits just like any other pack animal. But
          then again i was suggesting it for disabled or limited hikers so really my
          limits take there toll far sooner then my goats hit there limits so we are a great
          match.

          >IMHO; Taking any animal increases my work load. While I might be able
          >to reduce a 20 pound weekend pack load a bit, I'm constantly picking up
          >after, checking pack condition, fetching water, taking extra breaks and
          >so on. And that's just with 1 dog. A pack animal would be more work
          >for me than hiking without.


          I traval EVERYWARE with a service dog and almost everyware with a disabled
          child so i don't even bat an eye at such things hahaha. For long hikes i
          simply bury my dog's fecies with mine unless i'm packing out mine and then i
          packout my dog's. My dog pottys on command so he just goes when i do ;) Only a
          two second difrance in time as i just put his in my hole. The goat i make
          sure it is off trail but i leave it. My goats are tested so i'm not leaving
          possible disease.

          My goat is potty trained so i have no worry of him deficating in streams but
          i still watter him off watter but i don't have to haul the 200' that i would
          for washing and cleaning. Both my dog and goat are cocsi and gardia free.
          I wouldn't risk contaminating the enviroment.

          I take more breaks then my animals do so not an issue there ether. Pack
          checks are easy and normal for me, i constintally check my SD for gear when out
          in public so it is second nature for me.

          I can't carry over 20lbs but to be pain free (err pain less) i tipically
          don't go over a 10lb pack. I mostly use a 1,200 sq ft day pack for hiking and
          the animals deal with the rest. I also do longer then simple weekend hikes
          so 20lbs total weight is often not possible thus the animal help. The
          "burdon" of packing with animals is definatally outweighted by the help and simple
          creature companionship. And with goats you'll spot more deer and wild goats
          and sheep. They seem genuinally interested in these weard domestic goats
          haha.

          There definatally not for everyone but they are a godsend for the disabled!

          Melissa and Tao






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jwj32542
          ... Holy Goat Milk that s a HUGE pack! I ve lived in two bedroom apartments smaller than that! Talk about luxury camping... Hehe...I think you meant cubic
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:
            >I mostly use a 1,200 sq ft day pack for hiking

            Holy Goat Milk that's a HUGE pack! I've lived in two bedroom
            apartments smaller than that! Talk about luxury camping...

            Hehe...I think you meant cubic inches :P

            Jeff
          • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
            Oh my goodness yes! HAHAHAHA woops my brain was elseware for sure!!!! Haha didn t i tell ya all i hike with a camper tralier (big one) on my back ;) No
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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              Oh my goodness yes! HAHAHAHA woops my brain was elseware for sure!!!! Haha
              didn't i tell ya all i hike with a camper tralier (big one) on my back ;)
              No wonder i have back problems!

              Melissa and Tao (no way i'm hauling that thing for you)

              Holy Goat Milk that's a HUGE pack! I've lived in two bedroom
              apartments smaller than that! Talk about luxury camping...

              Hehe...I think you meant cubic inches :P






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • dclark52001
              ... So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:

                > >Dessert goats, perhaps.

                So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?

                :0)
              • Palefrei
                Dessert Goats. Yessiree! I think they offer them on www.ediblegear.com
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                  Dessert Goats. Yessiree!

                  I think they offer them on www.ediblegear.com


                  --- dclark52001 <dclark@...> wrote:

                  > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com,
                  > RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:
                  >
                  > > >Dessert goats, perhaps.
                  >
                  > So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?
                  >
                  > :0)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
                  HAHAHA the cream comes from the underside, so long as it s a feminine sort ;) Hmm come to think of it they make a nice main course for those that eat goat
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                    HAHAHA the cream comes from the underside, so long as it's a feminine sort
                    ;) Hmm come to think of it they make a nice main course for those that eat
                    goat meat too. Did i ever mention i'm the worlds WORST speller :D


                    So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sandy Kramer
                    Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she TOLD us she can t spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                      Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do any math!)

                      sandy

                      dclark52001 <dclark@...> wrote:
                      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:

                      > >Dessert goats, perhaps.

                      So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?

                      :0)




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                    • dclark52001
                      ... TOLD us she can t spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don t ask me to do any math!) ... Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                        > Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she
                        TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do
                        any math!)
                        >
                        > sandy

                        Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)

                        Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you thought
                        otherwise Melissa.

                        Derek
                      • Dick Matthews
                        Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that frist and lsat
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                          Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
                          waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that
                          frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
                          mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do
                          not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.

                          Dick Matthews

                          dclark52001 wrote:

                          >--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >>Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she
                          >>
                          >>
                          >TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do
                          >any math!)
                          >
                          >
                          >>
                          >>sandy
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)
                          >
                          >Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you thought
                          >otherwise Melissa.
                          >
                          >Derek
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Sandy Kramer
                          London, 1963...sitting in the tube wondering how I was going to tell my dad (in Venezuela) that I had walked out of the secretarial college cos I refused to
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                            London, 1963...sitting in the tube wondering how I was going to tell my dad (in Venezuela) that I had walked out of the secretarial college cos I refused to learn Pitman shorthand. I saw a sign that said:

                            gt a gd jb w mo pa

                            "Dad, guess what? I'm going to learn Speedwriting."

                            Dick Matthews <dick@...> wrote:

                            Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
                            waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that
                            frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
                            mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do
                            not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.

                            Dick Matthews

                            dclark52001 wrote:

                            >--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >>Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she
                            >>
                            >>
                            >TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do
                            >any math!)
                            >
                            >
                            >>
                            >>sandy
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)
                            >
                            >Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you thought
                            >otherwise Melissa.
                            >
                            >Derek
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                            Sandy Kramer
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • dclark52001
                            Unless you re having trouble learning to read and then word shape becomes important. ... she ... to do ... thought
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                              Unless you're having trouble learning to read and then word shape becomes important.

                              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Dick Matthews <dick@c...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
                              > waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that
                              > frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
                              > mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do
                              > not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
                              >
                              > Dick Matthews
                              >
                              > dclark52001 wrote:
                              >
                              > >--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However,
                              she
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me
                              to do
                              > >any math!)
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>
                              > >>sandy
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)
                              > >
                              > >Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you
                              thought
                              > >otherwise Melissa.
                              > >
                              > >Derek
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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