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Re: [Hammock Camping] new intro with a few questions

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  • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
    ... lot of camping and budget purchasing skills!! Hehehe budgeting is grand fun if ya do it right, i view it as an extream sport in this house haha.
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 2, 2005
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      >Way to go, Melissa! I don't have much backpacking experienc, but have a
      lot of >camping and budget purchasing skills!!
      Hehehe budgeting is grand fun if ya do it right, i view it as an "extream
      sport" in this house haha. Luckly it is just my son, my critters, and me or it
      would get even more complicated! Whats kinda funny is that i have very
      little "camping" skills. Don't think i've ever done car / base camp type
      camping. I just carry my "campsite" on my back, err well now the goats back haha.

      >I have just finished watching three of Lynne Whelen's videos ( 5 Million
      Steps, Amazing >Grace, and the one about Lightweight Backpacking - cost $65 for
      all three so that is not a >budget item!). But oh so worth it...and I will
      watch them over and over.

      >Amazing Grace is about Bill Irwin the blind man (he could "see" light but
      the vision was >white/blue/green dots) who thru-hiked the AT with his guide
      dog, and in 5 Million Steps one >of the guys had MS and hiked with crutches.
      So I reckon that I, with my arthritic aches, >pains, and limp, should be able
      to do a bit of hiking.

      Wow that sounds sooo cool! Bet the library would have copies, i'll check it
      out. I still walk but one of my problems is a joint disease. All my
      connective tissue is to loose and my body likes to fall apart at the worst possible
      times leading to great campfire stories ;) Aches, creaks, and pops make a
      hike more interesting any day haha. I have come up with lots of different
      options to help and am MORE THEN HAPPY to pass along any ideas that have helped
      me if your interested. Thow i can say by far the pack goat is the best of
      them all!!

      In my opinion a goat makes a better pack option then any other species.
      They are small enough to even bring in a car (if you potty train him) so no
      traliers even. An adverage pack goat can carry 60lbs of gear. There cross
      bucks are very light so most of your weight is in gear. You save even further
      because you don't have to normally pack in watter or feed for them. Dessert
      goats can go days without watter if nessesary so they can easally go all day
      drinking from the only avalable creek once that day. As far as feed they get
      all they nead with the ocational bite wile packing. They nead total (for my
      area) about 2 15 minite grazing periods easally done after camp is made.

      They are like deer, they have feet like deer so they don't erode the trails.
      They have poop just like deer so it does not soil the trails, in fact many
      hikers get excited to see it thinking they spotted deer poo haha. They don't
      trample vegitation like other pack animals. They also graze like deer
      taking a bite here and there never stripping an area of vegitation unless tied to
      one spot. Basically a goat is a great "leave no trace" pack alternitive.

      Well trained pck goats never nead to be tied they won't stray from camp and
      this leavesthen to spot eat to avoid dammage. Other animals can carry more
      weight but it is about the same amount of gear when you add up how much feed
      and watter you are packing for your animal. Pack goats rock ;)



      I had a Hennessy Hammock and did not like the bottom entry feature (gave it
      to a friend). I just bought the Byer's Moskito Traveller - that is $40 at
      Campmor - for $20 + S/H from www.ccoutdoorstore.com. If they have any left, I
      will be happy to donate one to you in the furtherance of your dream. (I got
      their answering machine and left a message. Please PM me at
      sandykayak@... with your info so I can place the order).

      Oh my goodness what a nice offer thank you Even if they don't have them
      thank you with the bottom of my heart!

      The netting is incorporated and has a side zipper...to use withoutthe net,
      you just flip the hammock over. 16 oz.

      Wow that's really lightweight!!! HAHA Most definatally!


      I spent some relaxing testing time with my two doggies. the 12-pounder
      likes the foot end and the 18-pounder likes to snuggle up and around my head. In
      a hammock, she will probably settle on or around my chest. Just how large
      and heavy is your dog? The hammock is "almost the size of a queen bed" and I
      think the max weight is 250 lbs.

      Ahh what a cute immage, Tao would crush my skull if he slept on my head
      haha! My dog is 27" (almost 28") and your adverage lab is 23" to 24". He is
      auchuly a Standard poodle and a very big one at that! right now he is only
      53lbs because he was attacked and nearly killed a few months ago by a Rotwieler
      and lost an increadable amount of weight. We come in together nicly under
      250lbs :)

      I bought from http://www.campmor.com Byer's Microrope (see previous
      discussions) for $14.99 plus S/H.

      I had originally planned to make a fly, but took the easy way out and bought
      the Hex Fly from www.hennessyhammock.com it was $59 + $10 S/H.

      I think i could easally design and sew a Tarp. My mother owns a flag sewing
      buisness so i can get free nylon from her and watter proof it and add
      gromits. I'll happily sew you one if you like?

      You would be sleeping diagonally and Tao could find a comfy spot. Since you
      are zippered in, falling out is not a concern. You unzip it, he hops out,
      and then you exit.

      HAHA that's my biggest fear i've taken a few tumbles in the little nylon
      mesh one here and it wasn't my fondest moment!


      I do hope you have or will start a webpage and we can keep track of your
      progress. Where do you live?

      I live in western washington (a hikers dream) and love it here!! I'd love
      to build a website of adventures so other people can get ideas to get back
      into the woods but i'm rather puter stupid haha. Getting on the net is about
      the max of my abilitys. Someday mabbee my friend can show me a little about
      it, they just moved back to vermont thow so it would be a good long wile.

      My big goal right now is "The Wonderland Trail". I plan to hike it year
      after next. It is a trail aroundthe entire Mt. Rainier and rated one of the
      best in the country. I am very excited about it. I plan to do it in one trip.
      Mabee after that i'll tackle a section of the Pacific Crest Trail, i could
      manage the whole thing if i did it in sections over a few years i think.

      I'll try to see if i can put a few pictures in the photo's section of the
      group. Thanks for all the help and info!!

      Melissa and Tao SD


      sandy in miami





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bruce W. Calkins
      ... Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the less the goat
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 3, 2005
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        > In my opinion a goat makes a better pack option then any other species.
        Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the
        trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the
        less the goat enjoys the hike. And when a goat digs in it's heels, you
        aren't going anywhere.

        > Dessert goats can go days without watter if nessesary so they can easally
        > go all day drinking from the only avalable creek once that day.
        Dessert goats, perhaps. Normal breeds WILL need water more often.
        Especially while working. You will need to keep them away from the
        water source too, they are as sloppy in their toilet as any other pack
        animal.

        > As far as feed they get all they nead with the ocational bite wile packing.
        > They nead total (for my area) about 2 15 minite
        > grazing periods easally done after camp is made.
        A working pack goat WILL need some grain/prepared feed. Browsing will
        not provide enough for the HIGH energy output of packing.

        > They are like deer, they have feet like deer so they don't erode the trails.
        Apparently you have not seen a busy game trail.

        > They don't trample vegitation like other pack animals.
        Less perhaps, still they have feet.

        > Basically a goat is a great "leave no trace" pack alternitive.
        I've tracked goats when they got out of the paddock. They do leave traces.

        > Well trained pck goats never nead to be tied they won't stray from camp
        And might attract bears and/or large cats.

        > Pack goats rock ;)
        True, as long as you stay within their limitations.

        IMHO; Taking any animal increases my work load. While I might be able
        to reduce a 20 pound weekend pack load a bit, I'm constantly picking up
        after, checking pack condition, fetching water, taking extra breaks and
        so on. And that's just with 1 dog. A pack animal would be more work
        for me than hiking without.

        Bruce W.



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      • Dick Matthews
        Bruce, Life is about choices. I applaud the choice to get into the backcountry rather than hang around on the couch. For those that need help getting into the
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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          Bruce,

          Life is about choices.

          I applaud the choice to get into the backcountry rather than hang around
          on the couch.

          For those that need help getting into the backcountry a pack goat is a
          very good choice.

          Everything you said is 100% on the mark.

          My mother was allergic to cow's milk so I grew up around goats. They
          make excellent pets and are a lot of fun. We gave our milk goats about
          a pound of sweet grain a day. Those goofy goats could be standing hock
          deep in blue grass and still climb over a fence to get to a thistle - go
          figure.

          The family of my daughter's best friend has llamas. I have been invited
          to take them out anytime I want, but I never do for exactly the reasons
          you state. They give their llamas sweet grain.

          Black bears would not be a problem, but goats would make great mountain
          lion chow.

          Dick Matthews



          Bruce W. Calkins wrote:

          >>In my opinion a goat makes a better pack option then any other species.
          >>
          >>
          >Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the
          >trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the
          >less the goat enjoys the hike. And when a goat digs in it's heels, you
          >aren't going anywhere.
          >
          >
          >
          >>Dessert goats can go days without watter if nessesary so they can easally
          >>go all day drinking from the only avalable creek once that day.
          >>
          >>
          >Dessert goats, perhaps. Normal breeds WILL need water more often.
          >Especially while working. You will need to keep them away from the
          >water source too, they are as sloppy in their toilet as any other pack
          >animal.
          >
          >
          >
          >>As far as feed they get all they nead with the ocational bite wile packing.
          >>They nead total (for my area) about 2 15 minite
          >>grazing periods easally done after camp is made.
          >>
          >>
          >A working pack goat WILL need some grain/prepared feed. Browsing will
          >not provide enough for the HIGH energy output of packing.
          >
          >
          >
          >>They are like deer, they have feet like deer so they don't erode the trails.
          >>
          >>
          >Apparently you have not seen a busy game trail.
          >
          >
          >
          >>They don't trample vegitation like other pack animals.
          >>
          >>
          >Less perhaps, still they have feet.
          >
          >
          >
          >>Basically a goat is a great "leave no trace" pack alternitive.
          >>
          >>
          >I've tracked goats when they got out of the paddock. They do leave traces.
          >
          >
          >
          >>Well trained pck goats never nead to be tied they won't stray from camp
          >>
          >>
          >And might attract bears and/or large cats.
          >
          >
          >
          >>Pack goats rock ;)
          >>
          >>
          >True, as long as you stay within their limitations.
          >
          >IMHO; Taking any animal increases my work load. While I might be able
          >to reduce a 20 pound weekend pack load a bit, I'm constantly picking up
          >after, checking pack condition, fetching water, taking extra breaks and
          >so on. And that's just with 1 dog. A pack animal would be more work
          >for me than hiking without.
          >
          >Bruce W.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
          Hi sorry for the late reply, i ve bene away from my puter. Anyways i thought i d try to better explane what i was saying about pack goats. ... Bucks are used
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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            Hi sorry for the late reply, i've bene away from my puter. Anyways i thought
            i'd try to better explane what i was saying about pack goats.


            >Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the
            >trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the
            >less the goat enjoys the hike. And when a goat digs in it's heels, you
            >aren't going anywhere.
            Bucks are used 99% of the time for packing and they adverage 280lbs or more.
            60lbs of gear is roughly a 20% body weight ratio. 20% weight is a
            perfectally managable load for a goat even on hard trails. They of course DO nead
            breaks like any other animal. They are 4wheel drive vehickles not race cars.

            As far as "digging in heels" a well trained pack goat won't. They even
            cross watter and goats HATE watter most of the time haha. Just like a well
            trained pack horse. Balking comes from pain or ill trained animals. They are FAR
            less stubern then llamas.

            Pack goats aren't just any goat off the farm. There bred for a paticlure
            body size and shape. There temperments are carefully selected and they are
            hand raised and training starts at birth. There not your tipical goat.


            >Dessert goats, perhaps. Normal breeds WILL need water more often.
            >Especially while working. You will need to keep them away from the
            >water source too, they are as sloppy in their toilet as any other pack
            >animal.


            Dessert goats are better at it but nearly any goat has the functional
            abilitys to manage this. Goats are amazingly versital and adapt to there
            enviroment. Again these are bred packgoats, i'm not taking a goat out of the dairy
            and tossing a pack on it.


            >A working pack goat WILL need some grain/prepared feed. Browsing will
            >not provide enough for the HIGH energy output of packing.

            Auchuly here i disagree and ANY pack goater will tell you. In sertion
            enviroments yes it is true but especially here in the NW there is NO nead to pack
            feeds for a buck. They are the only pack animal that can do this. Now if
            you bring a doe along also for milk and a light load then you have to pack
            grain for her. Does carry much lighter loads but provide milk on the trail
            (great protin sorse for hikers on the trails) and it is easy to make "camp
            yogert" in the morning for a tasty breakfast. How else can you get fresh milk and
            yogert in the back country. Anyways a doe in milk would nead grains but not
            the bucks.

            >Apparently you have not seen a busy game trail.

            HEHEHE i agree, but then again i'm not taking a herd of goats out daily on
            the same trail, i have 1 goat with me and control his behavior.

            >Less perhaps, still they have feet.

            Yes i agree here also, i did not meen to imply they leave NO dammage as they
            don't levitate. They do leave far less dammage then any other pack animal,
            or human for that matter.

            I've tracked goats when they got out of the paddock. They do leave traces.

            Yup especially when left to there own devices, just ask my fruit trees! The
            point i was tryingto make is that they are the most enviromentally friendly
            pack animal choice a hiker can make. As long as you do it properly they
            leave less dammage then a human.

            >And might attract bears and/or large cats.

            They can attract cats but bear i've never heard of. I don't worry much as
            i also hike with my service dog and have him walk the perimiter when i make
            camp (even if camping without goats) His smell makes the cats think twice but
            i know that many many goat packers hike the back country in couger areas and
            never have issues.

            >True, as long as you stay within their limitations.

            Agreed, goats do have there limits just like any other pack animal. But
            then again i was suggesting it for disabled or limited hikers so really my
            limits take there toll far sooner then my goats hit there limits so we are a great
            match.

            >IMHO; Taking any animal increases my work load. While I might be able
            >to reduce a 20 pound weekend pack load a bit, I'm constantly picking up
            >after, checking pack condition, fetching water, taking extra breaks and
            >so on. And that's just with 1 dog. A pack animal would be more work
            >for me than hiking without.


            I traval EVERYWARE with a service dog and almost everyware with a disabled
            child so i don't even bat an eye at such things hahaha. For long hikes i
            simply bury my dog's fecies with mine unless i'm packing out mine and then i
            packout my dog's. My dog pottys on command so he just goes when i do ;) Only a
            two second difrance in time as i just put his in my hole. The goat i make
            sure it is off trail but i leave it. My goats are tested so i'm not leaving
            possible disease.

            My goat is potty trained so i have no worry of him deficating in streams but
            i still watter him off watter but i don't have to haul the 200' that i would
            for washing and cleaning. Both my dog and goat are cocsi and gardia free.
            I wouldn't risk contaminating the enviroment.

            I take more breaks then my animals do so not an issue there ether. Pack
            checks are easy and normal for me, i constintally check my SD for gear when out
            in public so it is second nature for me.

            I can't carry over 20lbs but to be pain free (err pain less) i tipically
            don't go over a 10lb pack. I mostly use a 1,200 sq ft day pack for hiking and
            the animals deal with the rest. I also do longer then simple weekend hikes
            so 20lbs total weight is often not possible thus the animal help. The
            "burdon" of packing with animals is definatally outweighted by the help and simple
            creature companionship. And with goats you'll spot more deer and wild goats
            and sheep. They seem genuinally interested in these weard domestic goats
            haha.

            There definatally not for everyone but they are a godsend for the disabled!

            Melissa and Tao






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jwj32542
            ... Holy Goat Milk that s a HUGE pack! I ve lived in two bedroom apartments smaller than that! Talk about luxury camping... Hehe...I think you meant cubic
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:
              >I mostly use a 1,200 sq ft day pack for hiking

              Holy Goat Milk that's a HUGE pack! I've lived in two bedroom
              apartments smaller than that! Talk about luxury camping...

              Hehe...I think you meant cubic inches :P

              Jeff
            • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
              Oh my goodness yes! HAHAHAHA woops my brain was elseware for sure!!!! Haha didn t i tell ya all i hike with a camper tralier (big one) on my back ;) No
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                Oh my goodness yes! HAHAHAHA woops my brain was elseware for sure!!!! Haha
                didn't i tell ya all i hike with a camper tralier (big one) on my back ;)
                No wonder i have back problems!

                Melissa and Tao (no way i'm hauling that thing for you)

                Holy Goat Milk that's a HUGE pack! I've lived in two bedroom
                apartments smaller than that! Talk about luxury camping...

                Hehe...I think you meant cubic inches :P






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • dclark52001
                ... So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:

                  > >Dessert goats, perhaps.

                  So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?

                  :0)
                • Palefrei
                  Dessert Goats. Yessiree! I think they offer them on www.ediblegear.com
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                    Dessert Goats. Yessiree!

                    I think they offer them on www.ediblegear.com


                    --- dclark52001 <dclark@...> wrote:

                    > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com,
                    > RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:
                    >
                    > > >Dessert goats, perhaps.
                    >
                    > So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?
                    >
                    > :0)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
                    HAHAHA the cream comes from the underside, so long as it s a feminine sort ;) Hmm come to think of it they make a nice main course for those that eat goat
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                      HAHAHA the cream comes from the underside, so long as it's a feminine sort
                      ;) Hmm come to think of it they make a nice main course for those that eat
                      goat meat too. Did i ever mention i'm the worlds WORST speller :D


                      So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sandy Kramer
                      Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she TOLD us she can t spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook.
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                        Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do any math!)

                        sandy

                        dclark52001 <dclark@...> wrote:
                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:

                        > >Dessert goats, perhaps.

                        So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?

                        :0)




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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • dclark52001
                        ... TOLD us she can t spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don t ask me to do any math!) ... Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                          > Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she
                          TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do
                          any math!)
                          >
                          > sandy

                          Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)

                          Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you thought
                          otherwise Melissa.

                          Derek
                        • Dick Matthews
                          Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that frist and lsat
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                            Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
                            waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that
                            frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
                            mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do
                            not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.

                            Dick Matthews

                            dclark52001 wrote:

                            >--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >>Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she
                            >>
                            >>
                            >TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do
                            >any math!)
                            >
                            >
                            >>
                            >>sandy
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)
                            >
                            >Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you thought
                            >otherwise Melissa.
                            >
                            >Derek
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Sandy Kramer
                            London, 1963...sitting in the tube wondering how I was going to tell my dad (in Venezuela) that I had walked out of the secretarial college cos I refused to
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                              London, 1963...sitting in the tube wondering how I was going to tell my dad (in Venezuela) that I had walked out of the secretarial college cos I refused to learn Pitman shorthand. I saw a sign that said:

                              gt a gd jb w mo pa

                              "Dad, guess what? I'm going to learn Speedwriting."

                              Dick Matthews <dick@...> wrote:

                              Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
                              waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that
                              frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
                              mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do
                              not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.

                              Dick Matthews

                              dclark52001 wrote:

                              >--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >>Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she
                              >>
                              >>
                              >TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do
                              >any math!)
                              >
                              >
                              >>
                              >>sandy
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)
                              >
                              >Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you thought
                              >otherwise Melissa.
                              >
                              >Derek
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                              Sandy Kramer
                              work # 305-471-1913

                              ---------------------------------
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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • dclark52001
                              Unless you re having trouble learning to read and then word shape becomes important. ... she ... to do ... thought
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Unless you're having trouble learning to read and then word shape becomes important.

                                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Dick Matthews <dick@c...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
                                > waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that
                                > frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
                                > mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do
                                > not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
                                >
                                > Dick Matthews
                                >
                                > dclark52001 wrote:
                                >
                                > >--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >>Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However,
                                she
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me
                                to do
                                > >any math!)
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >>
                                > >>sandy
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)
                                > >
                                > >Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you
                                thought
                                > >otherwise Melissa.
                                > >
                                > >Derek
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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