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Re: new intro with a few questions

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  • jwj32542
    Congrats on getting back out into the woods! I respect that you re finding a way to do the things you love. Many people can t even find the motivation to do
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 1, 2005
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      Congrats on getting back out into the woods!

      I respect that you're finding a way to do the things you love. Many
      people can't even find the motivation to do what they like when the
      only thing stopping them is putting forth the effort...I guess you
      appreciate things more when there's an obstacle to overcome.

      Re: the HH, I think the dog would risk falling out unless you put
      him near your belly (spoon with him). Otherwise, a Speer-type would
      work great. I think Speers are more comfortable, anyway.

      If you're on a pension, check out the handful of DIY hammock sites.
      I made a hammock for $4 in material from the Walmart $1/yd bargain
      bin and some $.50/ft webbing from Ed Speer.

      Three to get you started:
      http://www.imrisk.com/
      http://www.geocities.com/jwj32542/HomemadeGear.html
      http://www.garlington.biz/Ray/HammockInsulator/Insulator.htm

      Welcome to hanging!

      Jeff

      --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:
      > Hi everybody, I just joined and thought I’d use my time to
      introduce myself
      > and ask a few q’s.
      > To start I’ll tell you a bit about me. I am a 25 female hiker
      that is
      > disabled. As a child I hiked all over with my father and got
      introduced to back
      > country hiking very young. I became disabled and stopped hiking
      for years.
      > I am now getting back into it going ultra light. I am training a
      pack goat
      > to help carry my gear (I can’t do over 20lbs) for hikes past
      day hiking. I
      > also hike with my service dog. He helps me in hard spots and
      carries all his
      > own food, water, and gear.
      > My service dog is allowed in national forests ware pets aren’t
      due to the
      > ADA and the fact that I am disabled. I will also be requesting
      a “reasonable
      > accommodation” to allow my pack goat on hikes ware goats are
      not allowed
      > under the ADA. Between my goat and dog I am able to get out in
      the woods again
      > and it is so nice!
      > I also have a 6 year old disabled son (in a wheelchair) and I am
      trying to
      > build a “saddle” that will support him on my pack goat so he
      can do day hikes
      > with me on non flat trails. My goat will be able to carry about
      60lbs wile
      > hiking. I am also trying to design a saddle for him so he can
      take my horse
      > on our hikes but that will wait, as they are QUITE expensive.
      Between the
      > goat and the horse my son will have hiking legs out in the woods.
      > I stumbled onto the camping hammocks by accident. I got a
      cheapy nylon
      > knot hammock used for free and I had been having trouble sleeping
      and decided to
      > go sleep out in the hammock that night. The rest was amazing and
      the first
      > thing that ran threw my mind was my god I bet I could sew one
      with a skeater
      > net and take it camping instead. That led me to the web and the
      realization
      > that I was a few years to late in my idea haha.
      > I am most interested in the Hennessey Expedition asym with the
      snakeskins,
      > and was wondering most of all if the bottom entrance will work
      for me. My
      > pack goat just stays outside the tent so not an issue with him but
      my service
      > dog beds down with me. The hammock here I have is a nylon knot/
      mesh type
      > (holes not solid). I easily thought him how to climb in it (top
      loading) and
      > sleep at my feet. I sleep on my side and he sleeps curled up
      behind my knees.
      > With out sleeping pattern will the Hennessey work? I am afraid
      it will be
      > to much weight on that half of the hammock and he will fall threw
      the
      > opening. We come in under the max weight load of course but will
      him sleeping what
      > I am guessing over the opening be ok?? If so any ideas how to
      fix this? I
      > am on a very tight disability pension so I am looking for low
      cost.
      > Thank you all for your time and I look forward to reading more
      about this
      > great tent alternative.
      >
      > Melissa and Tao
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jwj32542
      ... Oops...I meant this link: http://www.garlington.biz/Ray/SilkHammock/
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 1, 2005
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      • Palefrei
        Hello Melissa, I ve had my dog sleep in my Hennessy with me. I m 5 9 , 214lb, he s a Golden Retreiver/Beagle mix, about 25lb. (Like a Midget Retreiver), and he
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 2, 2005
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          Hello Melissa,
          I've had my dog sleep in my Hennessy with me. I'm 5'9",
          214lb, he's a Golden Retreiver/Beagle mix, about 25lb.
          (Like a Midget Retreiver), and he is able to hop up in with
          me. He slept at my feet and at my belly (I sleep on my side
          in the hammock.

          just make sure claws are well trimmed, or get some of the
          doggie boots that hunters use in cold weather on thier
          dogs, to avoid damage to you, your bag, hammock and gear.

          --- RedsTanMenagerie@... wrote:


          > (holes not solid). I easily thought him how to climb in
          > it (top loading) and
          > sleep at my feet. I sleep on my side and he sleeps
          > curled up behind my knees.
          > With out sleeping pattern will the Hennessey work? I am
          > afraid it will be
          > to much weight on that half of the hammock and he will
          > fall threw the
          > opening. We come in under the max weight load of course
          > but will him sleeping what
          > I am guessing over the opening be ok?? If so any ideas
          > how to fix this? I
          > am on a very tight disability pension so I am looking
          > for low cost.
          > Thank you all for your time and I look forward to
          > reading more about this
          > great tent alternative.
          >
          > Melissa and Tao
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • Sandy Kramer
          Way to go, Melissa! I don t have much backpacking experienc, but have a lot of camping and budget purchasing skills!! I have just finished watching three of
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 2, 2005
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            Way to go, Melissa! I don't have much backpacking experienc, but have a lot of camping and budget purchasing skills!!

            I have just finished watching three of Lynne Whelen's videos ( 5 Million Steps, Amazing Grace, and the one about Lightweight Backpacking - cost $65 for all three so that is not a budget item!). But oh so worth it...and I will watch them over and over.

            Amazing Grace is about Bill Irwin the blind man (he could "see" light but the vision was white/blue/green dots) who thru-hiked the AT with his guide dog, and in 5 Million Steps one of the guys had MS and hiked with crutches. So I reckon that I, with my arthritic aches, pains, and limp, should be able to do a bit of hiking.

            I had a Hennessy Hammock and did not like the bottom entry feature (gave it to a friend). I just bought the Byer's Moskito Traveller - that is $40 at Campmor - for $20 + S/H from www.ccoutdoorstore.com. If they have any left, I will be happy to donate one to you in the furtherance of your dream. (I got their answering machine and left a message. Please PM me at sandykayak@... with your info so I can place the order).

            The netting is incorporated and has a side zipper...to use withoutthe net, you just flip the hammock over. 16 oz.

            I spent some relaxing testing time with my two doggies. the 12-pounder likes the foot end and the 18-pounder likes to snuggle up and around my head. In a hammock, she will probably settle on or around my chest. Just how large and heavy is your dog? The hammock is "almost the size of a queen bed" and I think the max weight is 250 lbs.

            I bought from http://www.campmor.com Byer's Microrope (see previous discussions) for $14.99 plus S/H.

            I had originally planned to make a fly, but took the easy way out and bought the Hex Fly from www.hennessyhammock.com it was $59 + $10 S/H.

            You would be sleeping diagonally and Tao could find a comfy spot. Since you are zippered in, falling out is not a concern. You unzip it, he hops out, and then you exit.

            I do hope you have or will start a webpage and we can keep track of your progress. Where do you live?

            sandy in miami

            RedsTanMenagerie@... wrote:
            Hi everybody, I just joined and thought I’d use my time to introduce myself
            and ask a few q’s.
            To start I’ll tell you a bit about me. I am a 25 female hiker that is
            disabled. As a child I hiked all over with my father and got introduced to back
            country hiking very young. I became disabled and stopped hiking for years.
            I am now getting back into it going ultra light. I am training a pack goat
            to help carry my gear (I can’t do over 20lbs) for hikes past day hiking. I
            also hike with my service dog. He helps me in hard spots and carries all his
            own food, water, and gear.
            My service dog is allowed in national forests ware pets aren’t due to the
            ADA and the fact that I am disabled. I will also be requesting a “reasonable
            accommodation” to allow my pack goat on hikes ware goats are not allowed
            under the ADA. Between my goat and dog I am able to get out in the woods again
            and it is so nice!
            I also have a 6 year old disabled son (in a wheelchair) and I am trying to
            build a “saddle” that will support him on my pack goat so he can do day hikes
            with me on non flat trails. My goat will be able to carry about 60lbs wile
            hiking. I am also trying to design a saddle for him so he can take my horse
            on our hikes but that will wait, as they are QUITE expensive. Between the
            goat and the horse my son will have hiking legs out in the woods.
            I stumbled onto the camping hammocks by accident. I got a cheapy nylon
            knot hammock used for free and I had been having trouble sleeping and decided to
            go sleep out in the hammock that night. The rest was amazing and the first
            thing that ran threw my mind was my god I bet I could sew one with a skeater
            net and take it camping instead. That led me to the web and the realization
            that I was a few years to late in my idea haha.
            I am most interested in the Hennessey Expedition asym with the snakeskins,
            and was wondering most of all if the bottom entrance will work for me. My
            pack goat just stays outside the tent so not an issue with him but my service
            dog beds down with me. The hammock here I have is a nylon knot/ mesh type
            (holes not solid). I easily thought him how to climb in it (top loading) and
            sleep at my feet. I sleep on my side and he sleeps curled up behind my knees.
            With out sleeping pattern will the Hennessey work? I am afraid it will be
            to much weight on that half of the hammock and he will fall threw the
            opening. We come in under the max weight load of course but will him sleeping what
            I am guessing over the opening be ok?? If so any ideas how to fix this? I
            am on a very tight disability pension so I am looking for low cost.
            Thank you all for your time and I look forward to reading more about this
            great tent alternative.

            Melissa and Tao


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
            ... Your pooch must be adorable! I am worried that my service dog is a wee bit bigger haha. He is 27 (nearly 28 ) at the withers (adverage lab is 23 to
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 2, 2005
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              >Hello Melissa,
              >I've had my dog sleep in my Hennessy with me. I'm 5'9",
              >214lb, he's a Golden Retreiver/Beagle mix, about 25lb.
              >(Like a Midget Retreiver), and he is able to hop up in with
              >me. He slept at my feet and at my belly (I sleep on my side
              >in the hammock.



              Your pooch must be adorable! I am worried that my service dog is a wee bit
              bigger haha. He is 27" (nearly 28") at the withers (adverage lab is 23" to
              24"). He is a big boy and althow very lightweight for his size is still much
              bigger then 25lbs haha. He hates sleaping at my belly in the hammock as it
              squooshes him quite tightly but enjoys sleaping at my feet because i sleap
              in a modified fetal position.

              >just make sure claws are well trimmed, or get some of the
              >doggie boots that hunters use in cold weather on thier
              >dogs, to avoid damage to you, your bag, hammock and gear.



              Oh yes by all meens, doggy claws can be evil!!! If we hike on wet, muddy,
              snowy areas he wears "muttlucks" (best dog boots ever and trust me i test um
              hard!) and he has a pair of polar fleace "bed booties" i made for him for when
              he has tent time or now hammack time i guess. Keaps my gear clean and free
              of holes. I know ware those paws have bene all day, i want him wearing socks
              to bed hehe! Thanks for your time and info!

              Melissa and Tao SD




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
              ... lot of camping and budget purchasing skills!! Hehehe budgeting is grand fun if ya do it right, i view it as an extream sport in this house haha.
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 2, 2005
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                >Way to go, Melissa! I don't have much backpacking experienc, but have a
                lot of >camping and budget purchasing skills!!
                Hehehe budgeting is grand fun if ya do it right, i view it as an "extream
                sport" in this house haha. Luckly it is just my son, my critters, and me or it
                would get even more complicated! Whats kinda funny is that i have very
                little "camping" skills. Don't think i've ever done car / base camp type
                camping. I just carry my "campsite" on my back, err well now the goats back haha.

                >I have just finished watching three of Lynne Whelen's videos ( 5 Million
                Steps, Amazing >Grace, and the one about Lightweight Backpacking - cost $65 for
                all three so that is not a >budget item!). But oh so worth it...and I will
                watch them over and over.

                >Amazing Grace is about Bill Irwin the blind man (he could "see" light but
                the vision was >white/blue/green dots) who thru-hiked the AT with his guide
                dog, and in 5 Million Steps one >of the guys had MS and hiked with crutches.
                So I reckon that I, with my arthritic aches, >pains, and limp, should be able
                to do a bit of hiking.

                Wow that sounds sooo cool! Bet the library would have copies, i'll check it
                out. I still walk but one of my problems is a joint disease. All my
                connective tissue is to loose and my body likes to fall apart at the worst possible
                times leading to great campfire stories ;) Aches, creaks, and pops make a
                hike more interesting any day haha. I have come up with lots of different
                options to help and am MORE THEN HAPPY to pass along any ideas that have helped
                me if your interested. Thow i can say by far the pack goat is the best of
                them all!!

                In my opinion a goat makes a better pack option then any other species.
                They are small enough to even bring in a car (if you potty train him) so no
                traliers even. An adverage pack goat can carry 60lbs of gear. There cross
                bucks are very light so most of your weight is in gear. You save even further
                because you don't have to normally pack in watter or feed for them. Dessert
                goats can go days without watter if nessesary so they can easally go all day
                drinking from the only avalable creek once that day. As far as feed they get
                all they nead with the ocational bite wile packing. They nead total (for my
                area) about 2 15 minite grazing periods easally done after camp is made.

                They are like deer, they have feet like deer so they don't erode the trails.
                They have poop just like deer so it does not soil the trails, in fact many
                hikers get excited to see it thinking they spotted deer poo haha. They don't
                trample vegitation like other pack animals. They also graze like deer
                taking a bite here and there never stripping an area of vegitation unless tied to
                one spot. Basically a goat is a great "leave no trace" pack alternitive.

                Well trained pck goats never nead to be tied they won't stray from camp and
                this leavesthen to spot eat to avoid dammage. Other animals can carry more
                weight but it is about the same amount of gear when you add up how much feed
                and watter you are packing for your animal. Pack goats rock ;)



                I had a Hennessy Hammock and did not like the bottom entry feature (gave it
                to a friend). I just bought the Byer's Moskito Traveller - that is $40 at
                Campmor - for $20 + S/H from www.ccoutdoorstore.com. If they have any left, I
                will be happy to donate one to you in the furtherance of your dream. (I got
                their answering machine and left a message. Please PM me at
                sandykayak@... with your info so I can place the order).

                Oh my goodness what a nice offer thank you Even if they don't have them
                thank you with the bottom of my heart!

                The netting is incorporated and has a side zipper...to use withoutthe net,
                you just flip the hammock over. 16 oz.

                Wow that's really lightweight!!! HAHA Most definatally!


                I spent some relaxing testing time with my two doggies. the 12-pounder
                likes the foot end and the 18-pounder likes to snuggle up and around my head. In
                a hammock, she will probably settle on or around my chest. Just how large
                and heavy is your dog? The hammock is "almost the size of a queen bed" and I
                think the max weight is 250 lbs.

                Ahh what a cute immage, Tao would crush my skull if he slept on my head
                haha! My dog is 27" (almost 28") and your adverage lab is 23" to 24". He is
                auchuly a Standard poodle and a very big one at that! right now he is only
                53lbs because he was attacked and nearly killed a few months ago by a Rotwieler
                and lost an increadable amount of weight. We come in together nicly under
                250lbs :)

                I bought from http://www.campmor.com Byer's Microrope (see previous
                discussions) for $14.99 plus S/H.

                I had originally planned to make a fly, but took the easy way out and bought
                the Hex Fly from www.hennessyhammock.com it was $59 + $10 S/H.

                I think i could easally design and sew a Tarp. My mother owns a flag sewing
                buisness so i can get free nylon from her and watter proof it and add
                gromits. I'll happily sew you one if you like?

                You would be sleeping diagonally and Tao could find a comfy spot. Since you
                are zippered in, falling out is not a concern. You unzip it, he hops out,
                and then you exit.

                HAHA that's my biggest fear i've taken a few tumbles in the little nylon
                mesh one here and it wasn't my fondest moment!


                I do hope you have or will start a webpage and we can keep track of your
                progress. Where do you live?

                I live in western washington (a hikers dream) and love it here!! I'd love
                to build a website of adventures so other people can get ideas to get back
                into the woods but i'm rather puter stupid haha. Getting on the net is about
                the max of my abilitys. Someday mabbee my friend can show me a little about
                it, they just moved back to vermont thow so it would be a good long wile.

                My big goal right now is "The Wonderland Trail". I plan to hike it year
                after next. It is a trail aroundthe entire Mt. Rainier and rated one of the
                best in the country. I am very excited about it. I plan to do it in one trip.
                Mabee after that i'll tackle a section of the Pacific Crest Trail, i could
                manage the whole thing if i did it in sections over a few years i think.

                I'll try to see if i can put a few pictures in the photo's section of the
                group. Thanks for all the help and info!!

                Melissa and Tao SD


                sandy in miami





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bruce W. Calkins
                ... Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the less the goat
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 3, 2005
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                  > In my opinion a goat makes a better pack option then any other species.
                  Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the
                  trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the
                  less the goat enjoys the hike. And when a goat digs in it's heels, you
                  aren't going anywhere.

                  > Dessert goats can go days without watter if nessesary so they can easally
                  > go all day drinking from the only avalable creek once that day.
                  Dessert goats, perhaps. Normal breeds WILL need water more often.
                  Especially while working. You will need to keep them away from the
                  water source too, they are as sloppy in their toilet as any other pack
                  animal.

                  > As far as feed they get all they nead with the ocational bite wile packing.
                  > They nead total (for my area) about 2 15 minite
                  > grazing periods easally done after camp is made.
                  A working pack goat WILL need some grain/prepared feed. Browsing will
                  not provide enough for the HIGH energy output of packing.

                  > They are like deer, they have feet like deer so they don't erode the trails.
                  Apparently you have not seen a busy game trail.

                  > They don't trample vegitation like other pack animals.
                  Less perhaps, still they have feet.

                  > Basically a goat is a great "leave no trace" pack alternitive.
                  I've tracked goats when they got out of the paddock. They do leave traces.

                  > Well trained pck goats never nead to be tied they won't stray from camp
                  And might attract bears and/or large cats.

                  > Pack goats rock ;)
                  True, as long as you stay within their limitations.

                  IMHO; Taking any animal increases my work load. While I might be able
                  to reduce a 20 pound weekend pack load a bit, I'm constantly picking up
                  after, checking pack condition, fetching water, taking extra breaks and
                  so on. And that's just with 1 dog. A pack animal would be more work
                  for me than hiking without.

                  Bruce W.



                  --
                  Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
                  Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                  Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.6/59 - Release Date: 7/27/05
                • Dick Matthews
                  Bruce, Life is about choices. I applaud the choice to get into the backcountry rather than hang around on the couch. For those that need help getting into the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                    Bruce,

                    Life is about choices.

                    I applaud the choice to get into the backcountry rather than hang around
                    on the couch.

                    For those that need help getting into the backcountry a pack goat is a
                    very good choice.

                    Everything you said is 100% on the mark.

                    My mother was allergic to cow's milk so I grew up around goats. They
                    make excellent pets and are a lot of fun. We gave our milk goats about
                    a pound of sweet grain a day. Those goofy goats could be standing hock
                    deep in blue grass and still climb over a fence to get to a thistle - go
                    figure.

                    The family of my daughter's best friend has llamas. I have been invited
                    to take them out anytime I want, but I never do for exactly the reasons
                    you state. They give their llamas sweet grain.

                    Black bears would not be a problem, but goats would make great mountain
                    lion chow.

                    Dick Matthews



                    Bruce W. Calkins wrote:

                    >>In my opinion a goat makes a better pack option then any other species.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the
                    >trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the
                    >less the goat enjoys the hike. And when a goat digs in it's heels, you
                    >aren't going anywhere.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Dessert goats can go days without watter if nessesary so they can easally
                    >>go all day drinking from the only avalable creek once that day.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >Dessert goats, perhaps. Normal breeds WILL need water more often.
                    >Especially while working. You will need to keep them away from the
                    >water source too, they are as sloppy in their toilet as any other pack
                    >animal.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>As far as feed they get all they nead with the ocational bite wile packing.
                    >>They nead total (for my area) about 2 15 minite
                    >>grazing periods easally done after camp is made.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >A working pack goat WILL need some grain/prepared feed. Browsing will
                    >not provide enough for the HIGH energy output of packing.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>They are like deer, they have feet like deer so they don't erode the trails.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >Apparently you have not seen a busy game trail.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>They don't trample vegitation like other pack animals.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >Less perhaps, still they have feet.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Basically a goat is a great "leave no trace" pack alternitive.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >I've tracked goats when they got out of the paddock. They do leave traces.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Well trained pck goats never nead to be tied they won't stray from camp
                    >>
                    >>
                    >And might attract bears and/or large cats.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Pack goats rock ;)
                    >>
                    >>
                    >True, as long as you stay within their limitations.
                    >
                    >IMHO; Taking any animal increases my work load. While I might be able
                    >to reduce a 20 pound weekend pack load a bit, I'm constantly picking up
                    >after, checking pack condition, fetching water, taking extra breaks and
                    >so on. And that's just with 1 dog. A pack animal would be more work
                    >for me than hiking without.
                    >
                    >Bruce W.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
                    Hi sorry for the late reply, i ve bene away from my puter. Anyways i thought i d try to better explane what i was saying about pack goats. ... Bucks are used
                    Message 9 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                      Hi sorry for the late reply, i've bene away from my puter. Anyways i thought
                      i'd try to better explane what i was saying about pack goats.


                      >Quite possible, for moderate loads and rough trails. The rougher the
                      >trail, the lighter the pack needs to be. Also the heaver the pack the
                      >less the goat enjoys the hike. And when a goat digs in it's heels, you
                      >aren't going anywhere.
                      Bucks are used 99% of the time for packing and they adverage 280lbs or more.
                      60lbs of gear is roughly a 20% body weight ratio. 20% weight is a
                      perfectally managable load for a goat even on hard trails. They of course DO nead
                      breaks like any other animal. They are 4wheel drive vehickles not race cars.

                      As far as "digging in heels" a well trained pack goat won't. They even
                      cross watter and goats HATE watter most of the time haha. Just like a well
                      trained pack horse. Balking comes from pain or ill trained animals. They are FAR
                      less stubern then llamas.

                      Pack goats aren't just any goat off the farm. There bred for a paticlure
                      body size and shape. There temperments are carefully selected and they are
                      hand raised and training starts at birth. There not your tipical goat.


                      >Dessert goats, perhaps. Normal breeds WILL need water more often.
                      >Especially while working. You will need to keep them away from the
                      >water source too, they are as sloppy in their toilet as any other pack
                      >animal.


                      Dessert goats are better at it but nearly any goat has the functional
                      abilitys to manage this. Goats are amazingly versital and adapt to there
                      enviroment. Again these are bred packgoats, i'm not taking a goat out of the dairy
                      and tossing a pack on it.


                      >A working pack goat WILL need some grain/prepared feed. Browsing will
                      >not provide enough for the HIGH energy output of packing.

                      Auchuly here i disagree and ANY pack goater will tell you. In sertion
                      enviroments yes it is true but especially here in the NW there is NO nead to pack
                      feeds for a buck. They are the only pack animal that can do this. Now if
                      you bring a doe along also for milk and a light load then you have to pack
                      grain for her. Does carry much lighter loads but provide milk on the trail
                      (great protin sorse for hikers on the trails) and it is easy to make "camp
                      yogert" in the morning for a tasty breakfast. How else can you get fresh milk and
                      yogert in the back country. Anyways a doe in milk would nead grains but not
                      the bucks.

                      >Apparently you have not seen a busy game trail.

                      HEHEHE i agree, but then again i'm not taking a herd of goats out daily on
                      the same trail, i have 1 goat with me and control his behavior.

                      >Less perhaps, still they have feet.

                      Yes i agree here also, i did not meen to imply they leave NO dammage as they
                      don't levitate. They do leave far less dammage then any other pack animal,
                      or human for that matter.

                      I've tracked goats when they got out of the paddock. They do leave traces.

                      Yup especially when left to there own devices, just ask my fruit trees! The
                      point i was tryingto make is that they are the most enviromentally friendly
                      pack animal choice a hiker can make. As long as you do it properly they
                      leave less dammage then a human.

                      >And might attract bears and/or large cats.

                      They can attract cats but bear i've never heard of. I don't worry much as
                      i also hike with my service dog and have him walk the perimiter when i make
                      camp (even if camping without goats) His smell makes the cats think twice but
                      i know that many many goat packers hike the back country in couger areas and
                      never have issues.

                      >True, as long as you stay within their limitations.

                      Agreed, goats do have there limits just like any other pack animal. But
                      then again i was suggesting it for disabled or limited hikers so really my
                      limits take there toll far sooner then my goats hit there limits so we are a great
                      match.

                      >IMHO; Taking any animal increases my work load. While I might be able
                      >to reduce a 20 pound weekend pack load a bit, I'm constantly picking up
                      >after, checking pack condition, fetching water, taking extra breaks and
                      >so on. And that's just with 1 dog. A pack animal would be more work
                      >for me than hiking without.


                      I traval EVERYWARE with a service dog and almost everyware with a disabled
                      child so i don't even bat an eye at such things hahaha. For long hikes i
                      simply bury my dog's fecies with mine unless i'm packing out mine and then i
                      packout my dog's. My dog pottys on command so he just goes when i do ;) Only a
                      two second difrance in time as i just put his in my hole. The goat i make
                      sure it is off trail but i leave it. My goats are tested so i'm not leaving
                      possible disease.

                      My goat is potty trained so i have no worry of him deficating in streams but
                      i still watter him off watter but i don't have to haul the 200' that i would
                      for washing and cleaning. Both my dog and goat are cocsi and gardia free.
                      I wouldn't risk contaminating the enviroment.

                      I take more breaks then my animals do so not an issue there ether. Pack
                      checks are easy and normal for me, i constintally check my SD for gear when out
                      in public so it is second nature for me.

                      I can't carry over 20lbs but to be pain free (err pain less) i tipically
                      don't go over a 10lb pack. I mostly use a 1,200 sq ft day pack for hiking and
                      the animals deal with the rest. I also do longer then simple weekend hikes
                      so 20lbs total weight is often not possible thus the animal help. The
                      "burdon" of packing with animals is definatally outweighted by the help and simple
                      creature companionship. And with goats you'll spot more deer and wild goats
                      and sheep. They seem genuinally interested in these weard domestic goats
                      haha.

                      There definatally not for everyone but they are a godsend for the disabled!

                      Melissa and Tao






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • jwj32542
                      ... Holy Goat Milk that s a HUGE pack! I ve lived in two bedroom apartments smaller than that! Talk about luxury camping... Hehe...I think you meant cubic
                      Message 10 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:
                        >I mostly use a 1,200 sq ft day pack for hiking

                        Holy Goat Milk that's a HUGE pack! I've lived in two bedroom
                        apartments smaller than that! Talk about luxury camping...

                        Hehe...I think you meant cubic inches :P

                        Jeff
                      • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
                        Oh my goodness yes! HAHAHAHA woops my brain was elseware for sure!!!! Haha didn t i tell ya all i hike with a camper tralier (big one) on my back ;) No
                        Message 11 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                          Oh my goodness yes! HAHAHAHA woops my brain was elseware for sure!!!! Haha
                          didn't i tell ya all i hike with a camper tralier (big one) on my back ;)
                          No wonder i have back problems!

                          Melissa and Tao (no way i'm hauling that thing for you)

                          Holy Goat Milk that's a HUGE pack! I've lived in two bedroom
                          apartments smaller than that! Talk about luxury camping...

                          Hehe...I think you meant cubic inches :P






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • dclark52001
                          ... So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?
                          Message 12 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:

                            > >Dessert goats, perhaps.

                            So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?

                            :0)
                          • Palefrei
                            Dessert Goats. Yessiree! I think they offer them on www.ediblegear.com
                            Message 13 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                              Dessert Goats. Yessiree!

                              I think they offer them on www.ediblegear.com


                              --- dclark52001 <dclark@...> wrote:

                              > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com,
                              > RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:
                              >
                              > > >Dessert goats, perhaps.
                              >
                              > So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?
                              >
                              > :0)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • RedsTanMenagerie@aol.com
                              HAHAHA the cream comes from the underside, so long as it s a feminine sort ;) Hmm come to think of it they make a nice main course for those that eat goat
                              Message 14 of 20 , Aug 4, 2005
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                                HAHAHA the cream comes from the underside, so long as it's a feminine sort
                                ;) Hmm come to think of it they make a nice main course for those that eat
                                goat meat too. Did i ever mention i'm the worlds WORST speller :D


                                So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Sandy Kramer
                                Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she TOLD us she can t spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook.
                                Message 15 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                                  Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do any math!)

                                  sandy

                                  dclark52001 <dclark@...> wrote:
                                  --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, RedsTanMenagerie@a... wrote:

                                  > >Dessert goats, perhaps.

                                  So you eat this one after the main course? With cream?

                                  :0)




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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • dclark52001
                                  ... TOLD us she can t spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don t ask me to do any math!) ... Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                                    --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                                    > Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she
                                    TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do
                                    any math!)
                                    >
                                    > sandy

                                    Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)

                                    Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you thought
                                    otherwise Melissa.

                                    Derek
                                  • Dick Matthews
                                    Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that frist and lsat
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                                      Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
                                      waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that
                                      frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
                                      mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do
                                      not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.

                                      Dick Matthews

                                      dclark52001 wrote:

                                      >--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >>Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do
                                      >any math!)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >>sandy
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)
                                      >
                                      >Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you thought
                                      >otherwise Melissa.
                                      >
                                      >Derek
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Sandy Kramer
                                      London, 1963...sitting in the tube wondering how I was going to tell my dad (in Venezuela) that I had walked out of the secretarial college cos I refused to
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                                        London, 1963...sitting in the tube wondering how I was going to tell my dad (in Venezuela) that I had walked out of the secretarial college cos I refused to learn Pitman shorthand. I saw a sign that said:

                                        gt a gd jb w mo pa

                                        "Dad, guess what? I'm going to learn Speedwriting."

                                        Dick Matthews <dick@...> wrote:

                                        Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
                                        waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that
                                        frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
                                        mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do
                                        not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.

                                        Dick Matthews

                                        dclark52001 wrote:

                                        >--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However, she
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me to do
                                        >any math!)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>
                                        >>sandy
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)
                                        >
                                        >Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you thought
                                        >otherwise Melissa.
                                        >
                                        >Derek
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                        Sandy Kramer
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                                        ---------------------------------
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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • dclark52001
                                        Unless you re having trouble learning to read and then word shape becomes important. ... she ... to do ... thought
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Aug 5, 2005
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                                          Unless you're having trouble learning to read and then word shape becomes important.

                                          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Dick Matthews <dick@c...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
                                          > waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is that
                                          > frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl
                                          > mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do
                                          > not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
                                          >
                                          > Dick Matthews
                                          >
                                          > dclark52001 wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >--- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, Sandy Kramer <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >>Melissa is providing those of us with good spelling skills a few giggles. However,
                                          she
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >TOLD us she can't spell so, in my book, that lets her off the hook. (just don't ask me
                                          to do
                                          > >any math!)
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >>
                                          > >>sandy
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >
                                          > >Of course Melissa can spell; she just spells some words amusingly! :0)
                                          > >
                                          > >Anyway, I hope that we were laughing with her and not at her. My apologies if you
                                          thought
                                          > >otherwise Melissa.
                                          > >
                                          > >Derek
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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