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RE: [Hammock Camping] newbie from Miami's set up

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  • Ed Speer
    Welcome to the group Sandy. Looking forward to hearing about your hammock gear..Ed Moderator, Hammock Camping List Author, Hammock Camping, The Complete Guide
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 13, 2005
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      Welcome to the group Sandy. Looking forward to hearing about your hammock
      gear..Ed



      Moderator, Hammock Camping List
      Author, Hammock Camping, The Complete Guide

      Editor, Hammock Camping News

      Owner, Speer Hammocks Inc



      _____

      From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]
      On Behalf Of Sandy Kramer
      Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 4:36 PM
      To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Hammock Camping] newbie from Miami's set up



      Okay, here we go...

      I grew up in Venezuela so have plenty of hammock sleeping
      experience...AND plenty of camping experience. However, I am only
      now going to start mating them.

      A few years ago I bought a HH with the tree huggers and never got a
      chance to use it cos FL State Parks don't allow ANYTHING attached to
      trees and I hadn't done any wilderness camping for quite a while.

      In the end I gave it to a Mexican kayaking friend. So I really
      wasn't in the mood to spend yet another chunk of money on the
      HH...but, most importantly, I'm not wild about the bottom entry
      system.

      I just bought the Byer Moskito Traveller hammock ("nearly as large as
      a queen size bed and 16 oz. Parachute nylon - spruce green) (it's
      item 42505-D at www.campmor.com (It's $40 at campmor but I got it
      for $20 (such a deal!) at C & C Outdoors www.ccoutdoorstore.com
      shipping was about $5-6.

      The mosquito net is attached on one side and zippered along the
      other. You just flip the whole hammock over for lounging. I still
      haven't worked out why the bug net's ridge rope (?) has one of those
      squeeze toggles (?) on it. So if anyone can give me tips on the
      tying up of this, I'd appreciate it. I've just sort of wrapped it
      around the tree (it's very thin).

      C&C had one type of Byer rope attachment system, but I opted for I'm
      the Byer Travelrope ($15.99 for pair at campmor - item 42501-D). It
      is really great cos I never did learn how to tie a hammock Venezuelan
      style. They wrap the rope nd then the knot is sort of a slipknot and
      you just pull for easy release.

      The travel rope is adjustable and has a small aviation grade aluminum
      bar that just slips thru the eye of the hammock. 11 oz/pair

      I tried it out on some trees by the lake in my community, using 2"
      wide luggage straps with Fastex-type buckles from the 99 cent Stuff
      store to protect the trees. But I like the idea of cutting up an old
      bicycle inner tube and just slipping the rope thru it. Will that
      provide enough protection for the trees?

      It was so comfortable that I spent most of the weekend
      there...reading and dozing. I did use a small micro-poly bead (or
      whatever these latest rage pillows are called) pillow for added
      comfort.

      Byer makes the Amazonas range of hammocks but not a rainfly!

      I have some lightweight ripstop "nylon" I got at Wal-Mart for $1 or
      2/yd (Ed Speer mentions this in his book) and was going to try and
      make my own rainfly but then, after googling instructions on
      cantelevered flies, I figured it would be money well spent to order
      Hennessy's Hex Fly for $59 (plus $10 for S/H).

      I'm going to weigh it before I unwrap it, mostly out of curiosity
      because I do kayak camping so weight is not such a consideration.
      Tho I did do a wimp backpacking trip recently.

      While I was waiting for delivery, I found (and bought) a 5'x 7' tarp
      (like the blue ones) from Wal-Mart for about $3. It has all the
      grommets but what caught my eye was that it's black on one side and
      silver on the other so would be good as a heat reflector. It can
      always be used as a ground sheet - or a quickee overhead tarp.

      We have a Peace River campout planned for the end of this month and
      rainstorms are a distinct possibility...I think I'm going to set up a
      tent as well..just in case <<grin>>

      sandy in miami






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    • dlfrost_1
      ... to ... old ... No, it will not. No rope of any kind should be used to suspend human bodyweight from trees--it will damage them. Please use straps that
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 14, 2005
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        --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Sandy Kramer"
        <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
        > A few years ago I bought a HH with the tree huggers and never got a
        > chance to use it cos FL State Parks don't allow ANYTHING attached
        to
        > trees and I hadn't done any wilderness camping for quite a while.

        > I tried it out on some trees by the lake in my community, using 2"
        > wide luggage straps with Fastex-type buckles from the 99 cent Stuff
        > store to protect the trees. But I like the idea of cutting up an
        old
        > bicycle inner tube and just slipping the rope thru it. Will that
        > provide enough protection for the trees?

        No, it will not. No rope of any kind should be used to suspend human
        bodyweight from trees--it will damage them. Please use straps that
        are 1 inch in width or more to hang your hammock. It's important
        that everyone does this or we'll find a lot more places banning
        hammocks when tree-scarring becomes a common problem. On the other
        hand, the No Trace folks endorse hammock camping when webbing straps
        are used.

        Anyway, welcome to the group. :-)

        Doug Frost
      • Dave Womble
        Doug, Webbing will do a better job of protecting a tree than a rope; but not all webbing is the same, not all rope is the same and not all hammock setups are
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 15, 2005
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          Doug,

          Webbing will do a better job of protecting a tree than a rope; but
          not all webbing is the same, not all rope is the same and not all
          hammock setups are the same. I feel very strongly that Hennessy
          Hammocks should use webbing because of the way folks set them up.
          Some of these end up with the support ropes at 10 to 15 degree angles
          from the horizon when they are occupied which puts two to three times
          more load/stress on the supports than a similarly weighted hammock
          does when it is at a 30 degree angle. Even with ropes, it is not
          just the diameter that determines if damage is done to tree bark;
          slippery hollow core braided polypro ropes are somewhat tree friendly
          (recommend using a bowline knot with a quick release knot) because
          not only do they flatten out, they also don't put as much friction on
          the bark of trees. I would be surprised if my hammock setup which
          uses hollow core braided polypro ropes is more likely to damage trees
          than your Hennessy Hammock does with your typical setup because of
          the angle of my support ropes are typically much less than yours and
          puts less force on trees. Also, don't forget that there is nothing
          keeping someone that is using ropes from using a multiple wrap knot
          that more widely distributes the load.

          I mentioned above that I thought Hennessy Hammocks should use webbing
          because of the way folks set them up sometimes puts the support ropes
          at a 10 to 15 degree angle from the horizon when occupied. This
          should not be the case with other hammocks because they don't have an
          integral ridgeline that sets the sag of the hammock. These other
          hammocks set the sag of the hammock to around 30 degrees by setting
          the hammock up such that the support ropes are at a 30 degree angle
          to the horizon. By comparison, this means that the Hennessy Hammocks
          will likely be generating 2 to 3 times more force on the support
          trees before we even discuss ropes or webbing. (This is the link for
          a pictoral diagram I put together to explain how this force versus
          angle stuff plays out: http://tinyurl.com/d22te ). I think my hollow
          core braided polypro ropes with 2 to 3 times less force are a close
          match for potential tree damage to your HH with tree huggers... and
          that the standard Speer with it's 1" webbing using a multiple wrap
          knot is the king of LNT hammocks, nothing that I've seen will match
          it.

          Youngblood

          --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "dlfrost_1" <dlfrost@a...>
          wrote:
          > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Sandy Kramer"
          > <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
          > > A few years ago I bought a HH with the tree huggers and never got
          a
          > > chance to use it cos FL State Parks don't allow ANYTHING attached
          > to
          > > trees and I hadn't done any wilderness camping for quite a while.
          >
          > > I tried it out on some trees by the lake in my community, using
          2"
          > > wide luggage straps with Fastex-type buckles from the 99 cent
          Stuff
          > > store to protect the trees. But I like the idea of cutting up an
          > old
          > > bicycle inner tube and just slipping the rope thru it. Will that
          > > provide enough protection for the trees?
          >
          > No, it will not. No rope of any kind should be used to suspend
          human
          > bodyweight from trees--it will damage them. Please use straps that
          > are 1 inch in width or more to hang your hammock. It's important
          > that everyone does this or we'll find a lot more places banning
          > hammocks when tree-scarring becomes a common problem. On the other
          > hand, the No Trace folks endorse hammock camping when webbing
          straps
          > are used.
          >
          > Anyway, welcome to the group. :-)
          >
          > Doug Frost
        • Ed Speer
          As usual Youngblood, you are well spoken. Youngblood rocks! I know that you have tons of make-your-own hammock experience as well as enough outdoor experience
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 15, 2005
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            As usual Youngblood, you are well spoken. Youngblood rocks!



            I know that you have tons of make-your-own hammock experience as well as
            enough outdoor experience to make anyone jealous. I also know that you
            successfully use hollow core braided polypropylene rope to hang your
            hammock-this is the inexpensive yellow rope sold at many variety stores like
            Wal-Mart. As an advocate of webbing straps (as used on my Speer Hammocks),
            I just want to say that I agree fully with you about your rope. It does
            flatten under load and thus looses the round shape that would otherwise
            allow most ropes to damage tree bark because they 'roll' under load. In
            essence, your braided hollow core polypro rope becomes a narrow flat strap
            when tied to a tree-this distinguishes it from most other types of ropes
            that keep their round shape even under a load. I know you've learned this
            from extensive trial & error testing--the best teacher possible.



            As usual, a heavy dose of common sense must accompany all hammocks to
            prevent tree damage. Such as avoid smooth-bark trees, avoid trees less than
            4" in diameter, use suitable knots to prevent over tightening, etc. As Doug
            pointed out, the future of hammock camping depends heavily on the cumulative
            tree damage done by us hammock hangers. I encourage everyone to be
            conscious of this fact and to set a good example for future hammockers...Ed



            Moderator, Hammock Camping List
            Author, Hammock Camping, The Complete Guide

            Editor, Hammock Camping News

            Owner, Speer Hammocks Inc



            _____

            From: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of Dave Womble
            Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 8:24 AM
            To: hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Hammock Camping] Re: newbie from Miami's set up



            Doug,

            Webbing will do a better job of protecting a tree than a rope; but
            not all webbing is the same, not all rope is the same and not all
            hammock setups are the same. I feel very strongly that Hennessy
            Hammocks should use webbing because of the way folks set them up.
            Some of these end up with the support ropes at 10 to 15 degree angles
            from the horizon when they are occupied which puts two to three times
            more load/stress on the supports than a similarly weighted hammock
            does when it is at a 30 degree angle. Even with ropes, it is not
            just the diameter that determines if damage is done to tree bark;
            slippery hollow core braided polypro ropes are somewhat tree friendly
            (recommend using a bowline knot with a quick release knot) because
            not only do they flatten out, they also don't put as much friction on
            the bark of trees. I would be surprised if my hammock setup which
            uses hollow core braided polypro ropes is more likely to damage trees
            than your Hennessy Hammock does with your typical setup because of
            the angle of my support ropes are typically much less than yours and
            puts less force on trees. Also, don't forget that there is nothing
            keeping someone that is using ropes from using a multiple wrap knot
            that more widely distributes the load.

            I mentioned above that I thought Hennessy Hammocks should use webbing
            because of the way folks set them up sometimes puts the support ropes
            at a 10 to 15 degree angle from the horizon when occupied. This
            should not be the case with other hammocks because they don't have an
            integral ridgeline that sets the sag of the hammock. These other
            hammocks set the sag of the hammock to around 30 degrees by setting
            the hammock up such that the support ropes are at a 30 degree angle
            to the horizon. By comparison, this means that the Hennessy Hammocks
            will likely be generating 2 to 3 times more force on the support
            trees before we even discuss ropes or webbing. (This is the link for
            a pictoral diagram I put together to explain how this force versus
            angle stuff plays out: http://tinyurl.com/d22te ). I think my hollow
            core braided polypro ropes with 2 to 3 times less force are a close
            match for potential tree damage to your HH with tree huggers... and
            that the standard Speer with it's 1" webbing using a multiple wrap
            knot is the king of LNT hammocks, nothing that I've seen will match
            it.

            Youngblood

            --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "dlfrost_1" <dlfrost@a...>
            wrote:
            > --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Sandy Kramer"
            > <sandykayak@y...> wrote:
            > > A few years ago I bought a HH with the tree huggers and never got
            a
            > > chance to use it cos FL State Parks don't allow ANYTHING attached
            > to
            > > trees and I hadn't done any wilderness camping for quite a while.
            >
            > > I tried it out on some trees by the lake in my community, using
            2"
            > > wide luggage straps with Fastex-type buckles from the 99 cent
            Stuff
            > > store to protect the trees. But I like the idea of cutting up an
            > old
            > > bicycle inner tube and just slipping the rope thru it. Will that
            > > provide enough protection for the trees?
            >
            > No, it will not. No rope of any kind should be used to suspend
            human
            > bodyweight from trees--it will damage them. Please use straps that
            > are 1 inch in width or more to hang your hammock. It's important
            > that everyone does this or we'll find a lot more places banning
            > hammocks when tree-scarring becomes a common problem. On the other
            > hand, the No Trace folks endorse hammock camping when webbing
            straps
            > are used.
            >
            > Anyway, welcome to the group. :-)
            >
            > Doug Frost







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            <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hammockcamping> " on the web.

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          • dlfrost_1
            ... Dave, I d trust you or Ed or most of the other folks here to come up with rigging schemes that won t harm trees. But I ll always talk any newcomers away
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 15, 2005
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              --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Womble" <dpwomble@y...>
              wrote:
              > I think my hollow
              > core braided polypro ropes with 2 to 3 times less force are a close
              > match for potential tree damage to your HH with tree huggers... and
              > that the standard Speer with it's 1" webbing using a multiple wrap
              > knot is the king of LNT hammocks, nothing that I've seen will match
              > it.

              Dave, I'd trust you or Ed or most of the other folks here to come up
              with rigging schemes that won't harm trees. But I'll always talk any
              newcomers away from rope use because I'm thinking long term. I don't
              want land managers talking about the "hammock problem" five years
              from now. (Heck, that might happen anyway, given the number of Eagle
              Creek hammocks local gear shops are selling... No one's telling
              these people to use webbing, and the rest of us hammock campers will
              probably get lumped in together with them when the tree scarring
              starts becoming obvious.)

              Doug Frost
            • Dave Womble
              ... Doug, you have made a good point... one that the hammocking community should address. I have hammock camped in established campgrounds on three occasions
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 18, 2005
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                --- In hammockcamping@yahoogroups.com, "dlfrost_1" <dlfrost@a...> wrote:
                >
                > Dave, I'd trust you or Ed or most of the other folks here to come up
                > with rigging schemes that won't harm trees. But I'll always talk any
                > newcomers away from rope use because I'm thinking long term. I don't
                > want land managers talking about the "hammock problem" five years
                > from now. (Heck, that might happen anyway, given the number of Eagle
                > Creek hammocks local gear shops are selling... No one's telling
                > these people to use webbing, and the rest of us hammock campers will
                > probably get lumped in together with them when the tree scarring
                > starts becoming obvious.)
                >
                > Doug Frost

                Doug, you have made a good point... one that the hammocking community
                should address. I have hammock camped in established campgrounds on
                three occasions this year, which is two more times than I have in the
                previous years that I have used hammocks. As primarily a backpacker I
                have looked at the LNT aspect of hammocking as "what is good enough to
                not damage trees the one time time I use them and gives me the lightest
                weight, most functional and easiest to use backpacking hammock" (I also
                often throw cost into the equation).

                Your comments have made me consider that most hammocks are probably
                used in high-use campgrounds and/or by folks that may not campout often
                enough to understand the fine details of hammock suspension lines and
                how they can damage trees. Certainly high use comes into play in these
                situations and then the attitude "what is the best I can reasonably do"
                is likely the appropriate attitude.

                This weekend at a campground I met a first time hammock user that
                didn't use the manufactures supplied tree huggers for some reason...
                either he didn't think he needed them or didn't understand how to use
                them. Sargent Rock and I explained that he did need the tree huggers
                and showed him how to use them... it was kind of ominous considering
                the web postings we had the previous week. FWIW, I made a pair of 1"
                wide tree huggers to use at campgrounds friday before I left and used
                them on this trip.

                Youngblood
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